38-70 Winchester??

[ohiochuck]

Anyone loading and shooting the 38-70 in the Winchester 1886? Please share any loads and accuracy results.
Thanks!
Jim

[smokeywolf]

You need to keep in mind that an '86 with a "Nickel Steel" barrel will tolerate a considerably more robust load than those that came before the NS barrels. I believe I read that the "Nickel Steel" barrels are actually stronger than the .45 Carbon or Ordinance Steels that were also used between the introduction of smokeless and the adoption of "Nickel Steel".
Most of the '86 Winchesters from 1905 on were fitted with the "Nickel Steel" or "Winchester Proof Steel" barrels.

If your '86 does not have the "Nickel Steel" stamped on the barrel, I would keep load pressures in or near the range of original black powder loads.

I have had pretty good results using IMR 4198 powder in both 45-60 (model '76) and 40-65 (model '86). Wish I could be of more help with specific 38-70 load info, but I don't and won't offer guesses when it comes to load info.

smokeywolf

[missionary5155]

Good morning
Call Accurate Powers ( Western Powders) and ask them for some info..
When I started shooting my 50-95 I figured they could help and the tech guy I spoke to several times was very happy to help. You will need to know case length, overall length with boolit seated, boolit length, boolit weight, barrel length and how many toads are in the front yard.
If you have access to a crono the tech man will ask you to call back that info. They very much want to add loading info on rare calibers in the data banks.
Mike in Peru

[40-82]

Congratulations on acquiring an '86 in 38-70. I love that cartridge. I doubt very much that you have a nickle steel barrel. All of the nickle steel barrels I have seen were in more common calibers, but if you do have a nickle steel barrelled 38-70, I would like to know about it. If it is nickle steel, it will be marked as such on the barrel. The only extensive loading data I know of for the 38-70 is in Claude Williamson Jr.'s Lever Action Legacy. He states that he knows practically nothing about the 38-70 because he has only killed about 15 deer with it. I know even less. I've only killed about 10 with mine. As much as I enjoy Claude Williamson Jr.'s book, if you do find a copy, don't his top end loads. He had access to 450 Winchesters in a day when they weren't as valuable as they are now, and he loaded them way too hot.

For loading data I started with very low end 38-55 data because the 38-55 uses the same bullet in the lighter action of the '94 Winchester and I worked up. I would stop well short of some of the loads I see listed as top end for modern steel Marlin and Winchester 38-55's. None of these loads you initially work up will be accurate because the old black powder case has too much internal space. The best I could do was 3 inches at twenty-five yards. I tried accurate arms's 5744 which is recommended for these old cases, and I did no better. I had to use filler, which excluded the 5744 because Accurate Arms recommends against using filler for that powder. I tried the little plastic shotgun shell fillers and dacron and for some reason in this cartridge neither helped. The only thing that I found that worked for me was White Lily Cornmeal. Bear in mind that if you do use cornmeal that it adds pressure. I've never seen a good description of how to add cornmeal; so I'll describe how I do it. I pour a little cornmeal in a powder funnel over an already powdered case and with something like an Allen wrench I poke enough in to fill the case up to about the base of the bullet. I definitely don't pack it in and I don't weigh the cornmeal, using just enough to fill the void so that when the loaded cartridge is shaken nothing inside moves. The load I eventually ended up with was 36 grains of 3031 behind an RCBS 260 grain gas checked bullet. For these old blackpowder cartridges my go to powder is 3031, but sometimes Reloader 7 or Varget work as well or better when you can find the data. Without cornmeal the 3031 load chronographed at about 1400 fps and was inaccurate. With cornmeal the load chronogaphed at about 1800 fps. and was accurate enough to shoot a ragged hole at fifty yards and hit an 8-inch gong with boring regularity at 450 yards. My load is significantly better than the original black powder loading, but it shows no significant pressure. As you can see from the difference in velocity in cornmealed loads, you never want to work up a top safe load without cornmeal and then add it.

Bear in mind that the cases that you use can add a variable in pressure. For the 38-70 I use Remington 45-70 cases necked down and stretched to length available from Buffalo Arms. The other route you could go would be to neck down Starline 45-90's, but the Starline cases have less internal capacity and will create significantly more pressure with the same load. With smokeless powder the 38-70 performs exactly like the more common 38-56.

The killing power of this cartridge seems right up there with the 40-82 and the 40-65. I would happily use it against any game animal that went 'bleat.' For bears I'd want something a little bigger. As of yet, I've never recovered a bullet from any deer I've shot at any angle.

Let me know how things go for you with the 38-70. You may come up with loading ideas that I've never thought of or found, and if I went into more detail than you needed about the cornmeal I apologize. I've loaded thousands of these old cartridges with cornmeal and carried them through brutal conditions in the arctic on extended trips, but I'm still nervous that a slight variation in technique could have unintended consequences. I would never recommend the use of a filler like cornmeal which adds pressure to any reloader who wasn't familiar with reading pressure signs and didn't understand that just because a load worked in my rifle that it was necessarily safe in another rifle of the same make from the same era.

[double8]

You need to keep in mind that an '86 with a "Nickel Steel" barrel will tolerate a considerably more robust load than those that came before the NS barrels. I believe I read that the "Nickel Steel" barrels are actually stronger than the .45 Carbon or Ordinance Steels that were also used between the introduction of smokeless and the adoption of "Nickel Steel".
Most of the '86 Winchesters from 1905 on were fitted with the "Nickel Steel" or "Winchester Proof Steel" barrels.

If your '86 does not have the "Nickel Steel" stamped on the barrel, I would keep load pressures in or near the range of original black powder loads.

I have had pretty good results using IMR 4198 powder in both 45-60 (model '76) and 40-65 (model '86). Wish I could be of more help with specific 38-70 load info, but I don't and won't offer guesses when it comes to load info.

smokeywolf

My 1886 XTra Lightweight 45-70 was made in 1902.....has the original "nickel steel" barrel.