Question on Magma Bullet Master Mk. 6

[ReloaderFred]

Three of us went in together and purchased a used commercial casting setup, including a Magma Bullet Master Mk. 6, a Lube Master, a Master Caster, a Master Pot and a trashed Star Lube Sizer with air feed and heater, plus over 3,500 pounds of what appears to be wheelweight lead cast into 5 pound ingots and another 700 pounds or so of misc. lead. There are 110 bullet molds, but only two matched sets of 8 molds, varying from ready to cast, to needing a lot of rust removed from the exterior of the mold blocks and sprue cutters. The mold cavities all appear to be usable, after some cleanup. The equipment hasn't been used in about 7 years and the previous owner has passed away and is unavailable for questioning......

Everything works, with one exception. The Bullet Master won't drop lead. The pot heats up. The mold wheel indexes properly, etc., but the air actuator switch won't activate to open the lead spout.

If someone has experience with this machine, and can point us in the right direction to curing this problem, we'd very much appreciate it. And yes, the machine has 120 psi of air.

Thanks in advance,

Fred

[KYCaster]

Can you open the spout manually?(push down on the lever to open the spout)

Do you have voltage to the solenoid valve?

The spouts can get clogged with dross....use a dental pick to clear the spouts or in extreme case remove the spout block from the bottom of the pot to clean it thoroughly.(needs to be hot)

Jerry

[ReloaderFred]

Yes, we can open the spout manually and have good flow to the molds. We think the problem is somewhere in the circuitry, but we don't have a schematic for the Mk. 6. The only schematic Magma has is for the Mk. 8.

We're going to check and see if we have voltage at the solenoid, but at this point we're not sure whether it's a constant circuit, with an interrupter switch, or one of the switches supplies power to it.

The two sensor switches that contact the mold wheel seem to have something to do with it, too, but without the schematic, we're just guessing.

Thanks for the thoughts.

Fred

[RoGrrr]

Fred
On my MK II BULLET MASTER, there is a microswitch on the motor that activates my electric lead solenoid.
However, I will install an electronic timer so I can set the time within .01 seconds to take the microswitch timing out of the equation. It will simply give the timer a pulse to start the timing cycle.
What controls your air actuator ?

[ReloaderFred]

RoGrr,

There are two microswitches on the mold wheel that we think tell when a mold is mounted in the carriers and when it is aligned with the spout. We believe one of them opens the valve via the valve switch, but we haven't had a chance to chase out the circuit and see if there is power going to the valve switch.

We're putting on our annual match this weekend and are getting the ranges ready for the 72 shooters who have signed up for our matches. We won't be able to work on the machine until next week, which is why I was hoping for some ideas on what the problem may be so when we can get back to it, we'd have a better idea of what we're looking for. We think we know how it works, but at this point we're only guessing. If we can't figure it out on our own, we'll call Magma and see if they have some suggestions.

Thanks,

Fred

[RoGrrr]

Fred
I'd suggest that those switches are specifically for a bullet collator and those positions on the carousel had unique moulds associated with them. When those switches came into position, the collator dumped bullets that were ready to drop into a special collection receptacle. But you might ask Magma for their thoughts. Maybe even send them a picture. You might ask around to see if there are any 'friends' of said deceased loader who might have been there when he was running his caster. Just keep asking around.
However, I'd think that the switch would not be on the carousel but on the frame with a pin in a place which would trip the switch. I'm toying with that very idea, since I don't have full sets of moulds. A range manager wants me to run some boolits for some CAS shooters but he doesn't know specifically what they want now.
When I was in the market for a Star sizer/luber I asked everyone I bumped into and finally found one right in my home club. He wasn't using it and didn't forsee using it so he offered it to me when I asked. When I pulled out my wallet as soon as he told me what he wanted for it I guess, from the look on his face, he realized he might have gotten more for it.

[ReloaderFred]

The switches are mounted to the frame of the machine and the carriers contact the triggers when in place to receive lead. I'll probably have to call Magma next week and see what they say.

For your CAS shooters, they'll want 125 gr. RNFP bullets in .38 Caliber, and 200 gr. RNFP for .45 Caliber. That's what we bought the casting equipment for, Cowboy shooters. One of the partners in this little venture has his Class 7 FFL and a boatload of insurance, otherwise we wouldn't even consider it.

Fred

[6bg6ga]

Fred,

The control isn't complicated on any of these machines. Start at the actuator and go backwards. You can draw the schematic in a few minutes. In any circuit like this there is going to be a switch that is activated when the molds are in position. The movement of the molds on the wheel stop. The lead pour is activated and this is going to be governed by a times relay in most cases because it is the logical way to do it. It is probably a times relay that is either faulty or turned all the way off. Check the settings on the relays and write it down and then adjust them.

[ReloaderFred]

Thanks. We'll be chasing the circuits when we have time to work on the machine sometime next week. We figure it's one of the switches that's bad, since this machine was sitting in a very damp environment for a number of years. It was being used in an old metal gas station building with a leaking roof, but hadn't been turned on in about 5 or so years.

Fred

[RoGrrr]

Fred
I was envisioning what 6bg6ga said. When I got my MK 2 it had a switch jerry-rigged similar to yours. If there was a mould present, lead poured; no mould, no pour. There were incomplete sets of moulds which didn't fill the carousel completely so he had to inhibit lead delivery if there was no mould present.
However, the auction company cut all the wiring to an off-chassis control box when they moved the 3 machines (the MK 2 I got, serial number 019, a MK 3, serial number 259 and a MK 4, serial number 466) out of his shop in preparation for the auction (I think this was an estate auction and nobody knew the relevance of all his mods so they bulled thru his shop. SACRILEGE). Consequently, I decided to remove all the wiring and controls and do a thorough cleaning, which included a complete disassembly and a trip to the car wash to remove all the grease encrusted crud. From there, I'm redoing it with electronic controls. I plan to install some programming pins on the carousel so I can sort boolits into a preprogrammed receptacle.
What I see is that the MK 2 has a single chamber furnace with one external heating element. They designed a twin chamber for the MK 3 with 1 internal heating element for each chamber, for more uniform temperature control of the pouring section. There were some other minor design changes to subsequent furnaces.They told me that if my heating element burns out I'll either have to buy and bend/form my own heater, as they don't support that furnace now. I believe the furnaces now cost about $500.

What is the serial number on yours ? Magma is up to the MK 8 and I have no idea how many of these things they have built. I do know they are up to about $11,000.
As 6 said, follow the wiring to every destination and draw a road map/schematic. If you don't understand electricity/electronics, ask around or make and post your drawing here and somebody will offer thoughts. I'd love to see what you have and offer suggestions on how to tailor it to work WITH you. Also post some detailed pics of the machine.
My range manager did say that the CAS shooters use 45s and he wants boolits for them. Not sure when they will be back at his range so I can't talk with them directly. I do have a set of 9mm RN moulds and some 45 SWC in 185 and some in 200 grains.

[ReloaderFred]

We've set this equipment up in one of the partner's shop, which is about 30 minutes from my house. It will be next week before we get back to work on it, since this match we're putting on is taking all our time this week. In fact, I've got to head back to the range in about half an hour and will be there all day.

All the switches look like they're factory installed. It's either a bad switch or one is out of adjustment. We'll try to find out which it is next week when we work on the gear again.

If your CAS shooters are shooting .45's, they will need a bullet that will feed through their leveraction rifles. The 200 gr. RNFP that Magma offers is the perfect bullet for both rifle and revolver in .45 Colt. It's also a great bullet for .45 acp. I shoot it in my Marlin 1894CB and 1911's for Wild Bunch matches. When people who aren't into casting ask a caster to make a bullet for them, they don't realize the investment in molds it takes to make another design. I'd see how much demand there is before plunking down the $700 for another set of dies. On the other hand, if they're active SASS shooters, they will be going through a lot of ammunition, i.e.; bullets. My wife and I go through about 5,000 rounds a year just in matches.

Fred

[ReloaderFred]

Just a quick update on our Mk. 6 Bullet Master. We finally got it running today. The problem was the pour timer, which had evidently gone out on the previous owner and he had replaced it with an aftermarket unit that Magma never used in their machines. The replacement pour timer was bad, and after finally getting the new one, we got the machine up and running late this morning. In about 4 hours we managed to cast about 9,000 good .38 and 9mm bullets.

Now on to the Lube Master. We haven't tried to use it, since we didn't have bullets to run through it. We also got a new thermostat for the Master Pot and installed it today. We'll use it for smelting, since it's the older larger pot.

Fred

[angus6]

Fred why not switch to PID's over thermostats ? I set my Lube Master up with dual pids 1 for the base and 1 for the band heater. With my MK5 I'm at around 17,000 for 8 hrs

[ReloaderFred]

We've been working for about 2 months just getting the Bullet Master working. The three of us are all new to this type of machine, but not to casting. Two of us have Master Casters that we've been using for several years.

We want to get everything up and running before we start modifying anything, since we're relying on Magma for advice right now. They sent me the wrong pour timer twice, which has slowed things down quite a bit, but now that we've got the Bullet Master running, we'll start on the rest.

I also discovered that Zoro Tools has the correct pour timer for about $50.00 less, but we didn't know which one it took, since it had a Macro-Matic in it, and Magma never used that brand.

I'm still cleaning up rusty molds and I'm only about 1/3 of the way through them. They were badly neglected, but I think I can save most of them.

Fred

[angus6]

The gentleman I bought mine from told me that Grainger was who he got most replacement parts from , he had 7 machines setup at one time

[6bg6ga]

We've been working for about 2 months just getting the Bullet Master working. The three of us are all new to this type of machine, but not to casting. Two of us have Master Casters that we've been using for several years.

We want to get everything up and running before we start modifying anything, since we're relying on Magma for advice right now. They sent me the wrong pour timer twice, which has slowed things down quite a bit, but now that we've got the Bullet Master running, we'll start on the rest.

I also discovered that Zoro Tools has the correct pour timer for about $50.00 less, but we didn't know which one it took, since it had a Macro-Matic in it, and Magma never used that brand.

I'm still cleaning up rusty molds and I'm only about 1/3 of the way through them. They were badly neglected, but I think I can save most of them.

Fred

Do you have the manufacturer and model number? I sometimes run across surplus units and if I had this info I might be able to score something. It might also be helpful to others in the future that purchase a used machine and come across the same thing.

[6bg6ga]

PID control is great for small loads un-heat sinked and I'm speaking of the SS relay here. You can run a small load with the relay un-sinked and there won't be a heat problem. Add a large load and you need to both properly heat sink it and also use a fan in a electrical box to remove the excess heat.

Some PID's have internal relay contacts that are rated large enough to run a heater element that is less than 3A.

If you want to despense with the SS relay because of the heat you can use the control turn on voltage of around 3 volts to turn on a transistor and run a relay. In this method you would need voltage to the relay coil and in MOST cases control voltage in machines is usually 24 volts.

PID's and SS relays do work but remember the SS relays DO build us heat and this heat does need to be dealt with.

[kayak1]

PID control is great for small loads un-heat sinked and I'm speaking of the SS relay here. You can run a small load with the relay un-sinked and there won't be a heat problem. Add a large load and you need to both properly heat sink it and also use a fan in a electrical box to remove the excess heat.

Some PID's have internal relay contacts that are rated large enough to run a heater element that is less than 3A.

If you want to despense with the SS relay because of the heat you can use the control turn on voltage of around 3 volts to turn on a transistor and run a relay. In this method you would need voltage to the relay coil and in MOST cases control voltage in machines is usually 24 volts.

PID's and SS relays do work but remember the SS relays DO build us heat and this heat does need to be dealt with.

A 60 AMP SS relay with a heat sync should do fine on these machines. The MK8 only needs a 15amp circuit.

One can pickup a 60AMP one for under $20 off of Ebay (sorry I didn't see a US source).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Groove-End-LED-Indicator-Light-DC-AC-Solid-State-Relay-60-Amp-24-480VAC-3-32VDC-/310711241202?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4857d549f2

[6bg6ga]

A 60 AMP SS relay with a heat sync should do fine on these machines. The MK8 only needs a 15amp circuit.

One can pickup a 60AMP one for under $20 off of Ebay (sorry I didn't see a US source).
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Groove-End-LED-Indicator-Light-DC-AC-Solid-State-Relay-60-Amp-24-480VAC-3-32VDC-/310711241202?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4857d549f2

The point is NOT the amp rating of the SS relay because it would be Very rare in one of these machines to have a current draw in excess of 20-30A tops. Most generally they would be 15 A so a 20 A SS relay would work fine. The load does however need to be checked prior to selecting a SS relay/

The point I am making is these SS relays build heat and this heat needs to be dealt with properly. Substitution to a 60 Amp SS relay will do nothing for the heat build up. Using a SS relay does require proper sinking. You simply cannot blindly use one of these SS relays as the design and implimentation has to be 100% correct in order for the unit to function and control to work properly.

To answer your last post....Kayak 1 You also have to remove the heat from the electrical enclosure from the add on heat sink is using the optional unit that you can bolt down and then bolt the SS relay to it.

The proper way to heat sink is to actually mount a heat sink to the outside of the electrical box and this way the heat goes off the heat sink to the outside and not in the box.

[6bg6ga]

8018580186


You can use a piece of heat sink like the pictures above.

You simply cut an opening a little larger than the SS relay in the electrical box you have the object being to end up with the SS relay mounted to the heat sink without coming into contact with the electrical box. After the SS relay is mounted to the heat sink you simply screw the heat sink to the electrical box.

The result is the SS relay is heat sinked properly to the piece of surplus heat sink and ALL the heat associated with the Ss relay is totally out of the electrical box....thus no heat build up inside the box from this.

[6bg6ga]

80187


This is option number two

You mount the SS relay to a heat sink like this inside the electrical box.

You then add a fan to remove the excess heat from the box caused by the heat sinked SS relay.

I prefer option number one with the external heat sink.

Note..... NEC code would prohibit you from mounting this externally on the electrical box without it being made un excessable. Remember on one side of the SS relay you have 3-32 volts and on the other side you have high voltage exposed thus a shock hazzard.

[ReloaderFred]

You guys are making my head spin with all this electrical talk! I just want to cast bullets with this machine, and none of the three of us are electricians, so we'll probably just keep the machine stock, though it appears to have been upgraded at some point in time. It was made in 1993, as best we can determine and was used by an elderly couple for a number of years. Then it was purchased by a local guy for his son to use in a casting business, but the son wasn't interested. He'd rather drink and do drugs than work, so the father used it off and on for a few years before he had a heart attack and his health went downhill fast and finally passed away. The machine sat unused for about 5 or 6 years in an old metal building and we think the pour timer quit before it was shut down. He had been casting 405 gr. .45-70 bullets and it looked like he was operating the machine by hand. He had 4 molds installed in alternating carriers, which would have given him time to operate the pour manually. Some of the bullets that were in the molds when he turned the machine off were only partially filled out.

The Mark 6 machine was the last one to use a 110 volt pour timer. They switched to the 240 volt pour timer with the Mark 7 machine, and that's what the Mark 8 currently uses.

The part number for the pour timer for the Mark 6 is: Dayton Solid State Time Delay Relay #6A855. Here's the link to Zoro Tools, which is cheaper than Graingers, and has free shipping on orders over $50.00: http://www.zorotools.com/g/Time%20Delay%20Relays/00054076/.

I also buy my tumbler media from Zoro, since it's cheaper and after the $50.00, shipped free. Here's the link: http://www.zorotools.com/g/00054305/k-G1695775?&gcsct=0ChMIkKymneeYuQIVZANECh1uaAAAEAA.

Hope this helps.

Fred

[angus6]

You guys are making my head spin with all this electrical talk!

Fred it's actual real simple no magic involved :smile:

I've got one of the 6A855 relays in my spare parts that came with my machine, mines not set up to use it so your more then welcome to it
as it's just taking up space

I should be out in the Newport area next month for a couple weeks while dad has his the ticker rebuilt, if I can be of hand let me know
Bob

[ReloaderFred]

I sent you a PM, Bob.

Thanks,

Fred

[Randy C]

:coffeecom
I whish I had these kind of problems.