44 mag Deer Load

[ACrowe25]

Hey guys,

Just looking for your opinion here. I just picked up a Ruger SRH (7.5") in 44 mag. Looking to hopefully take it out this season and chase a whitetail (if I'm comfortable with my accuracy). I'm casting a LEE 240 grain SWC GC boolit from straight WW (water droped) and will be loading that for hunting purposes.

Now I'm just wondering how heavy a load needs to be to be "humane". I don't want to just injure an animal (I'm sure no one does). Whitetail aren't made of steel, so don't need to be too much over packed IMO. But I'm not sure where that line is...

Currently the only spare powder I have on hand is w231, so I will be loading up a few hundred 44 mags (after a work up) with this. But how heavy does it need to be? Can w231 provide this? If not I was thinking I would switch to aa2400 if need be, but I'd rather not unless needed. Opinions?

[Outpost75]

In my .44 RBH my general purpose " go to" load is the Saeco #441 260-gr. Keith SWC with 7.2 grainz of Bullseye, which gives about 900 fps from a 5-1/2" barrel, is accurate, pleasant to shoot, and kills dverything. About 8 grs. of W231 will do the same thing.

[nicholst55]

Hodgdon shows 5.5 grains as starting and 11.0 grains as max with a cast 240 grain bullet; 800 FPS to start and 1334 at max charge. I've never used a powder as fast as W231 in the .44 Mag myself, but it sure looks like it would work.

[runfiverun]

i have shot a grundle of 44 mags with 7 and 7.5 grs of 231 and a 250 gr boolit.
i think they would do pretty well on a deer out to 40-50 yds.
water dropping is not necessary, i generally add some soft lead in the mix and air cool.

[Cosmiceyes]

Here is a picture of a Ruger 44 mag that pipe-bombed on fast powders that only fill half the case.11 grains is the recommended max of w231 for a speed of 1000fps.
2400 starts a 17.4 grains with 1207 fps maxing out at 19.2 gr for 1317fps.
There is a lot I don't know about you or where an how you hunt. So I'll do the me thing. If I can rest my pistol(7 1/2 inch Ruger SBH Stainless) I will shot the Kieth Style Wad-cutter at the deers lungs out to 200 meters.I use the same load to knock down Rams at 200 meters.I use the same lead compound.You can't make pistol bullets mushroom much at most hunted kill ranges.What you rely on is the clean round hole going through the deer.100 yards max run to pile up.Whether I use 358 caliber,41 caliber,or 44 caliber I shoot for the large target lungs over small heart target.I'm going for dinner,not bragging rights.
I have taken my rifle out to hunt every year for so many years.I started carrying a pistol to quick finish kill.I walk real slow,stopping a lot to look around.I have scared myself when I realized how close I was to the deer.Pull out the revolver,and drop the deer.I only shoot my rifle at the range now.
74920

[The Kid]

I shot a 429421 cast a little softer than straight WW diagonally through a 6ft black bear two weekends ago. I was using my Bisley Hunter with a 7.5" barrel and my goto 44 load of 10gr unique in starline cases. This load moves out at around 1100fps, has light recoil and blast, zero leading and great accuracy. The bear was shot in the center of the shoulder, which was crushed, and the slug exited the opposite flank, 13yd shot and a 13yd death run. I've never shot a whitetail with a 44 but I can't imagine this not working out to the 50yd line.

[Hickory]

I use to shoot deer with the 429421, never recovered a boolit.
I started using layman's 429640 hp and does a little better job of putting them down.
At 75 yrds or less 1200 fps is all you need.

[44man]

I would use 23.5 to 24 gr of 296 or H110 with that boolit. Find where it is accurate. Use a Fed 150 primer--(Yeah, I know.) 2400 will also work.
A hole is a hole only without energy placed in the deer. Stay away from those light loads or trying to get velocity with fast powders.
The .44 is the best deer gun ever from 1300 to 1400 fps. No expansion needed and a hard boolit works but not at 800 to 900 fps. You will lose deer, believe me.

[1Shirt]

Hard to beat Elmers load, but would not argue with 44Man either!
1Shirt!

[nagantguy]

I would use 23.5 to 24 gr of 296 or H110 with that boolit. Find where it is accurate. Use a Fed 150 primer--(Yeah, I know.) 2400 will also work.
A hole is a hole only without energy placed in the deer. Stay away from those light loads or trying to get velocity with fast powders.
The .44 is the best deer gun ever from 1300 to 1400 fps. No expansion needed and a hard boolit works but not at 800 to 900 fps. You will lose deer, believe me.
I am in your corner my friend a 260 grain cast with gas check over a good dose of h110at right around 1350 fps is my stand by go to .44 load very accurate and hard hitting out of rifle or revolver, never owned one this load won't shoot well in. Lots of venison in the freezer to prove it and a few hogs and bears as well.

[35 Whelen]

Question: How does a .44 caliber, 250 gr. bullet @ 1350 fps through the lungs of a deer kill better than the same bullet @ 950 fps through the same lungs? It seems to me it would be the same as pushing a sharpened hoe handle through the chest of a deer; pushed fast or pushed slow, there are still holes in the lungs.

35W

[DougGuy]

I never use fast powders in .44 or .45 Colt. 2400 in the .44 magnum is about as good as it needs to get for me. I have used 296 but found 2400 just works best.

I am with 44man on the velocity. Also, you are good with the SWC GC design, the wide flat nose boolit will cut a golfball sized wound channel all the way through a deer, 1300f/s will leave a much more devastating wound channel than 950f/s which if the animal runs at all, it won't run very far.

When I get into the real heavyweight boolits, 260gr+ I don't try to push them for the max velocity, I try to keep them at least supersonic or close to it.

[44man]

75016
Question: How does a .44 caliber, 250 gr. bullet @ 1350 fps through the lungs of a deer kill better than the same bullet @ 950 fps through the same lungs? It seems to me it would be the same as pushing a sharpened hoe handle through the chest of a deer; pushed fast or pushed slow, there are still holes in the lungs.
You need energy inside the deer. Just poking a hole is not enough and deer can go 100 to 200 yards with no blood trail. I shoot 6 to 7 deer a season and have over 450 deer kills, I did orchard control in Ohio. The wrong energy placement or lack thereof does little inside an animal.
I am sure you do not hunt with armor piercing bullets in your rifle.
This is proper revolver damage at the right velocity.

35W

[MT Chambers]

Question: How does a .44 caliber, 250 gr. bullet @ 1350 fps through the lungs of a deer kill better than the same bullet @ 950 fps through the same lungs? It seems to me it would be the same as pushing a sharpened hoe handle through the chest of a deer; pushed fast or pushed slow, there are still holes in the lungs.

35W

I believe that the main dif. is TRAJECTORY.

[onegunred]

HYDROSTSTIC shock.

[Piedmont]

Question: How does a .44 caliber, 250 gr. bullet @ 1350 fps through the lungs of a deer kill better than the same bullet @ 950 fps through the same lungs? It seems to me it would be the same as pushing a sharpened hoe handle through the chest of a deer; pushed fast or pushed slow, there are still holes in the lungs.

35W
Not sure it kills "better" because he will die either way, but the faster bullet makes a bigger hole, so probably kills faster, or at least potentially does. There is a splash effect of soft tissue off the meplat. Speed up the bullet and you get a bigger splash, so a bigger hole. Veral Smith of LBT has written on this and so has Marshall Stanton at Beartooth Bullets. Beartooth Boolits has a website and I think there is an article on there somewhere explaining this should you want to read about it.

[35 Whelen]

Not sure it kills "better" because he will die either way, but the faster bullet makes a bigger hole, so probably kills faster, or at least potentially does. There is a splash effect of soft tissue off the meplat. Speed up the bullet and you get a bigger splash, so a bigger hole. Veral Smith of LBT has written on this and so has Marshall Stanton at Beartooth Bullets. Beartooth Boolits has a website and I think there is an article on there somewhere explaining this should you want to read about it.

That's what I was looking for! Makes perfect sense. ;-)

Energy, to my way of thinking, is derived from a mathematical formula and therefore really only serves the purpose of comparing the relative power of similar caliber/weight projectiles and has almost nothing to do with killing. If energy were relevant and were a concrete indication of the killing potential of a projectile, then a 55 gr. .22 caliber bullet with 1200 ft. lbs. of energy would have the same potential to kill as a 405 gr. .45 caliber bullet with the same amount of energy.

Good discussion!

35W

[Ed K]

This is Veral's DV formula put to a chart. A Boolit needs to be in the green zone for a high probability kill. Note that it is based off of meplat and a Keith and LFN are similar (red is WFN, blue is LFN).

75039

[44man]

75050Muzzle energy figures have nothing to do with killing at all. A bullet can have 8000# of muzzle energy and poke a hole. It is always the bullet and where it places energy.
you need to understand that every single gun from the .22 to the largest rifle ever depends on the bullet for the animal hunted. You either adjust the bullet for the velocity or adjust the velocity to the bullet.
Rifle bullets are made for all sizes of game so a 150 to 165 gr in the 30-06 is a good deer bullet, but the 180 is for larger animals. Why do you think a revolver is different?
A .44 at 800 fps will go through a deer and so will a sharp stick. Add a blade to the stick. Would you shoot field points at a deer or do you use a broad head?
Do you really hunt or do you read books?
I can show what a WLN does at 1316 fps, can you show the same at 700 to 800 fps/
.44 mag, WLN at 1316 fps.

[Ed K]

44man's 1300fps WLN is in the middle of the green zone (blue arrow). A sub-1000fps SWC is not even on the chart (purple). Again this is Veral's work - I'm just painting the picture.

75051

[dubber123]

I don't have the volume of hunting experience many of you do, but here is a personal example. I shot a 200+ pound boar with my .475 Linebaugh, 425 gr. WFN at 1,348 fps. The lungs were in a pureed form, and it went down within seconds of the hit, without running. The next time I shot a similar sized boar with a 50-70 Contender, with a similar Meplat boolit, only this time going about 950 fps. I shot that one through the lungs 3 times, and upon dressing out, each had made about a 1-1/2" hole, and the organs were still readily identifiable, i.e. mostly whole. At least to me, the added velocity greatly increased the damage done.

[ACrowe25]

I'm having a hard time finding load data for the shorter OAL of the LEE 229-240 SWC (GC). Is OAL not as much as a concern? The data I constantly find comes in for the 1.60-1.62" OAL where properly crimping in the lube groove puts my OAL at 1.585". Any tips?

[44man]

I want to clear things a little. A flat nose too fast will have a pressure wave very wide and move tissue out of the boolit path. Slow the boolit and it will do more damage. The only way to make the fast boolit work is to soften for some expansion. Very hard boolits are in a short velocity range with any revolver. Now I have also found real heavy boolits at the same velocity will also poke a hole because they do not slow down. The .44 and .475 both work but the .500 pokes a hole. No blood trails and deer going too far.
Sounds strange but the .500 JRH does NOT kill like a .44 or .475 with the same hardness. The .500 needs a softer nose.
The .45 Colt will kill faster then my 45-70 revolver using the same alloy. Different alloy is needed.
Get the flat nose only out of your thinking. It will turn against you. Soften the faster and heavier boolits.
Slower boolits need to work too, not enough energy to start with.
Boolit work, energy placed.

[44man]

I'm having a hard time finding load data for the shorter OAL of the LEE 229-240 SWC (GC). Is OAL not as much as a concern? The data I constantly find comes in for the 1.60-1.62" OAL where properly crimping in the lube groove puts my OAL at 1.585". Any tips?
No, do the rounds chamber? Why are you worried about OAL? Boolit jump to the cone is a non issue.

[Piedmont]

Veral always loses me with his argument of the ideal range of displacement. He bases it on "I talked to a surgeon once and he said..." and then some mumbo jumbo about the bullet breaking too many cell walls and releasing too much clotting agent or some such. Bigger is always going to be better and faster is always going to be better (unless it destroys the bullet or something like that). Guys who shoot large roundballs fast (like .58 caliber and up) and expanding .45-70s marvel at how they put deer and like sized game down RIGHT NOW. And Veral's displacement velocity is likely very high on them (way too high for what he says is optimum) so I just don't buy his argument in it's entirety.

[Ed K]

Veral always loses me with his argument of the ideal range of displacement.

I was just bringing up Veral's work because you referenced it in support of the thread and I believe the graphical representation is helpful. It might not be perfect but Veral, 44man and many others on this board have a whole lot more experience than me and I like to learn from others rather than the hard way. Notice how 44man's boolit falls right smack in the sweet spot... coincidence? As to the "over velocity" argument I don't worry about it too much as it is not that easy to get a flat-nosed handgun boolit running that fast. I'd worry a whole lot more about not making the minimum figure. Don't forget that the DV formula is only intended to apply to flat nosed boolits so the roundball and 45-70 Gould don't really fit.

Basically, if you take the approach of a handful of successful handgunners, seek out the common denominators and apply them to your own efforts, how can you really go wrong?

[W.R.Buchanan]

Basically, if you take the approach of a handful of successful handgunners, seek out the common denominators and apply them to your own efforts, how can you really go wrong?

This is what I do, when searching for valid information using anecdotal information as a basis.

However you must test and verify to make sure YOU actually understand what they are saying.

Discussions like this do tend to get some BS interjected into them.

However the commonality of experiences eventually shows thru and that is what you are looking for.


Randy

[Piedmont]

Don't forget that the DV formula is only intended to apply to flat nosed boolits so the roundball and 45-70 Gould don't really fit.


The reason to throw them out is they invalidate the rest. Do you see my point? My problem with the calculation is him putting a cap on the top end. If facts prove a theory wrong you change the theory.

[Groo]

Groo here
44man +1 to you
The English did a study [1800-1900 ] about the effects of pistol boolets an stated you can drive one too fast.
The tissue needs time to react to the boolet as it passes through,too fast and you get a hole, slower and the tissue streaches and tears causing more bleeding.
In the 600 to 700fps range in the bulldog revolvers as I recall.
The damage caused by the water being moved [hydrostatic shock] happens at an IMPACT speed over 2000fps ans the damage gets greater the faster you go.

[44man]

It is entirely possible to destroy too much tissue by tearing it. Ragged edges seal faster. I have helped a few around here find deer shot with 7mm and 300 mags. One buck went a mile, quit bleeding in 100 yards and had a hole big enough to stick your head in. They lose more deer here with rifles too big and I keep telling them to get a 30-30. Just why they need a mag to shoot 50 yards on small deer is confusing to me. They are also afraid of the recoil and never practice.
I have only lost 2 deer since I have hunted with revolvers, both with the 45-70 BFR and a boolit too hard, 1631 fps is too much.
I shoot 6 to 7 each season with revolvers. The ladies that have always let me hunt get 2 each every year, help butcher and wrap. They love venison.
I also went through the flat nose thing and figured faster was better, didn't take long to see the mistake. I tried a 50-50 WW and pure HP once in the 45-70, oven hardened. One of Babores great boolits. I destroyed the entire shoulder on exit and meat was blood shot head to butt.

[DougGuy]

44man what do you think of this load, (45 Colt instead of 44mag but still same principle) 320gr WFN GC (.380" meplat) cast from Lyman #2, air cooled, 1150-1200f/s?

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/20130527_182014a_zpsea9bd06b.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/20130527_182014a_zpsea9bd06b.jpg.html)

[Cosmiceyes]

The type boolit you are using(Kieth Style) is right on.Shoot the big target.(lungs) Easiest to hit,and quickest cleanest kills.This type boolit cuts this perfect hole going in,and out.It lets a huge amount of blood go into the lungs,and on the ground. Easy tracking.

[Snapping Twig]

The load I settled on is a Lyman 429244 air cooled, lubed with White Label BAC weighing 265g from straight wheel weights over 22g W296 and a good crimp.

That's @ 1200fps and accurate for me. These penetrate like nothing I have ever seen! I shot a 160# hog with this load and the bullet never slowed down on its way to China. Anchored the hog DRT.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a51/SnappingTwig1/PC020005.jpg

[RKJ]

44man, I have a question (it might have been answered already, and maybe I'm just too dense to see it, but please bear with me). I use a 429421 (WW at 250 grains) above 10.5 grains of unique and a Winchester LPP. I don't have access to a chrony (I know, I need to get one) but while it seems pretty easy on my end, it also seems to have quite a bit of power. I've tried Elmer's load of 20, 21, and 22 grains of 2400 and had some pretty good pressure issues. I've not tried H110 or WW296 but have heard they are not (how to put this?), well a person needs to use right at the max levels, is that right? I like the 10.5 Unique and would like to try my hand this year at deer season with it but not if it's not enough. I understand every situation is different but from a statistical view, am I underpowered in your opinion?

[44man]

Those boolits work and velocities are just fine. My biggest problems have been too hard and too fast. I tried WFN instead of my WLN in the 45-70 and it made no difference, 200 yards to recovery. At the right velocities for the alloy the WFN has an edge but can be worse if shot too fast without expansion because the wave from the nose is wider.
Most of what I surmise is from just thinking about it at my bench after seeing the insides of deer. I have to leave out very large animals because I don't know. Big and tough animals might let the boolit work even if hard. It is the apples and oranges thing.
It is true you don't want to download H110 or 296 (Same powder) too much but starting book loads are fine. The only caliber to be careful with is the .454 because of the primer. I use 296 because it has made the most accurate loads. It has less instant thump on a boolit then Unique. 296 will not spike pressure suddenly if you go over max a little. I use 296 in the .44, .45, .475 and .500 JRH but the 45-70 uses 4759 because of case size.
I tried the 4227's in the .44 and got good accuracy but gun heat makes it go crazy fast but it worked superb in the .357 max. Something about the .44 so I stay away from it.
2400 can spike but it is good powder.
Notice I use a Fed 150 in the .44 and .45 Colt but go to the 155 for the .475 and up, even the 45-70. Don't use a mag primer with 2400 or Unique. You don't need it with 296 in the .44 either. Mag primers triple groups for me. The WW primer will work in the .45 Colt.
Air cooled is OK, I just get fliers but they seem to go away if I anneal the GC's. PB needs harder so I water drop.
The Keith boolits are good killers but it is the meplat, not the shoulder, the shoulder does not touch anything in an animal unless very slow.
The Lee 310 is a super boolit for deer. I use 21.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer. Velocity is about 1316 fps from my long barrel and 100 yards is nothing for the gun. The 265 RD with 22 gr of 296 is deadly with Felix lube, I hate Alox.
My old Vaquero .45 with 320 and 335 gr boolits at 1160 fps puts a hurt on deer. I use 21.5 gr of 296 with both. Don't use that in the new guns. Ruger should keep making both sizes instead of bowing to CA shooters. They could double their profits.

[35 Whelen]

44man, I have a question (it might have been answered already, and maybe I'm just too dense to see it, but please bear with me). I use a 429421 (WW at 250 grains) above 10.5 grains of unique and a Winchester LPP. I don't have access to a chrony (I know, I need to get one) but while it seems pretty easy on my end, it also seems to have quite a bit of power. I've tried Elmer's load of 20, 21, and 22 grains of 2400 and had some pretty good pressure issues. I've not tried H110 or WW296 but have heard they are not (how to put this?), well a person needs to use right at the max levels, is that right? I like the 10.5 Unique and would like to try my hand this year at deer season with it but not if it's not enough. I understand every situation is different but from a statistical view, am I underpowered in your opinion?

I researched your load of Unique over at loaddata.com, and it looks like it would probably be running in the 1100-1150 fps range. How could that bullet at that speed put through the lungs of a deer NOT work?

Hope this helps.

35W

[DougGuy]

Those boolits work and velocities are just fine. My biggest problems have been too hard and too fast. I tried WFN instead of my WLN in the 45-70 and it made no difference, 200 yards to recovery. At the right velocities for the alloy the WFN has an edge but can be worse if shot too fast without expansion because the wave from the nose is wider.

Most of what I surmise is from just thinking about it at my bench after seeing the insides of deer.

It is true you don't want to download H110 or 296 (Same powder) too much but starting book loads are fine.

My old Vaquero .45 with 320 and 335 gr boolits at 1160 fps puts a hurt on deer. I use 21.5 gr of 296 with both. Don't use that in the new guns. Ruger should keep making both sizes instead of bowing to CA shooters. They could double their profits.

Thank you sir. I have seen your through and through photos of the WFN at work and they are remarkable.

I remember a thread I had asked about slowing down a 260gr boolit and learned from that thread not to download H110. I eventually tried LilGun which got the velocity slower, but the 260gr still did not come up to the sights so I went with the 300gr Lee GC (320gr in Lyman #2 with GC) over 20.5gr of LilGun which dialed it right in. More dwell time in the barrel I am guessing?

20.5gr of LilGun grouped on average 1/3 tighter than 22gr of H110 in my Vaquero. And that's with Felix. I know you don't like LilGun but at far less pressure than the .454 Casull, I doubt I will encounter any problems from it's use. We're talking load development and then hunting here, not shooting hundreds of rounds. Probably took less than 20rds in 3 shot strings to bring that load to the sights.

This same boolit shot very well over 17.0gr aa2400 also. I don't know what the velocity is but I would guess it close to 1050f/s. Even though it is about BHN14 or thereabouts, I doubt it would expand much over this charge weight of 2400.

From this research, I am leaning toward the 310gr Oregon Trail WFN GC for my 7 1/2" .44 SBH.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/index_zps2ef62169.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/index_zps2ef62169.jpg.html)

I'm learnin' buddy, I'm learnin'

Once again, please keep in mind that these loads are NOT SAFE in a New Vaquero or New Model Flattop! These loads are well within the published Ruger Only load data, but that load data is only meant for LARGE FRAME RUGER REVOLVERS.. Please do not attempt to use these loads in your New Model Ruger if it has a 3 digit prefix serial number...

[atr]

I have been using 429421 (WW at 250 grains) above 10.0 grains of unique....very nice to shoot...and accurate
lately I have been experimenting with the 310Gr again with 10 grs of unique...and I am beginning to like this load for my deer hunting (whitetails)
atr

[RKJ]

Those boolits work and velocities are just fine. My biggest problems have been too hard and too fast. I tried WFN instead of my WLN in the 45-70 and it made no difference, 200 yards to recovery. At the right velocities for the alloy the WFN has an edge but can be worse if shot too fast without expansion because the wave from the nose is wider.
Most of what I surmise is from just thinking about it at my bench after seeing the insides of deer. I have to leave out very large animals because I don't know. Big and tough animals might let the boolit work even if hard. It is the apples and oranges thing.
It is true you don't want to download H110 or 296 (Same powder) too much but starting book loads are fine. The only caliber to be careful with is the .454 because of the primer. I use 296 because it has made the most accurate loads. It has less instant thump on a boolit then Unique. 296 will not spike pressure suddenly if you go over max a little. I use 296 in the .44, .45, .475 and .500 JRH but the 45-70 uses 4759 because of case size.
I tried the 4227's in the .44 and got good accuracy but gun heat makes it go crazy fast but it worked superb in the .357 max. Something about the .44 so I stay away from it.
2400 can spike but it is good powder.
Notice I use a Fed 150 in the .44 and .45 Colt but go to the 155 for the .475 and up, even the 45-70. Don't use a mag primer with 2400 or Unique. You don't need it with 296 in the .44 either. Mag primers triple groups for me. The WW primer will work in the .45 Colt.
Air cooled is OK, I just get fliers but they seem to go away if I anneal the GC's. PB needs harder so I water drop.
The Keith boolits are good killers but it is the meplat, not the shoulder, the shoulder does not touch anything in an animal unless very slow.
The Lee 310 is a super boolit for deer. I use 21.5 gr of 296 and a Fed 150 primer. Velocity is about 1316 fps from my long barrel and 100 yards is nothing for the gun. The 265 RD with 22 gr of 296 is deadly with Felix lube, I hate Alox.
My old Vaquero .45 with 320 and 335 gr boolits at 1160 fps puts a hurt on deer. I use 21.5 gr of 296 with both. Don't use that in the new guns. Ruger should keep making both sizes instead of bowing to CA shooters. They could double their profits.

I was thinking (there I go again) that that load/bullet combination ought to be enough (especially after reading some of the posts) but didn't want to have a load that seemed ok but not.



I researched your load of Unique over at loaddata.com, and it looks like it would probably be running in the 1100-1150 fps range. How could that bullet at that speed put through the lungs of a deer NOT work?

Hope this helps. 35W

It does. I'm sure that at one time or another I had an idea of the velocity but had forgotten it. The load itself came from some of John Taffin's writings, I tried it and liked it but didn't want to be undergunned. Thanks for the info (and the patience). Joe

[44man]

I researched your load of Unique over at loaddata.com, and it looks like it would probably be running in the 1100-1150 fps range. How could that bullet at that speed put through the lungs of a deer NOT work
Hope this helps.

35W
It will work. I just feel a slower powder is easier on a boolit.
Lil'gun is accurate but I think it is too hot and can damage a revolver.
To force with unique, I would go 2400 and for more, 296.

[Ramjet-SS]

Well I would run a 240 grain Devestator HP from Lyman mold to about 1100 FPS and keep your shots in the boiler room and DRT.

[44man]

Well I would run a 240 grain Devestator HP from Lyman mold to about 1100 FPS and keep your shots in the boiler room and DRT.
That would seem to be perfect for that boolit.
I guess the hardest thing to explain is to not look for 1500 fps from your .44 or .45, just find the best accuracy you can. Might be 1100 fps or 1300.
The very worst thing when hunting is to have a boolit go somewhere else instead of to the sights. It is hard enough to shoot a revolver.
You don't need bigger either, I just like to shoot the big ones. The .44 is still the best ever.
I like the heavy boolits because they are slower, accurate and penetration is there. Just don't go crazy with unstable boolit weights like the nutty 405 gr, .44.

[44man]

Sumting wong. I make my first post and get a message to wait 30 seconds between posts, so I wait, then find a double post. I have to delete one.

[Ramjet-SS]

I would love if Lyman would make Devastator mold for the 45 Long Colt.

You make good point about not overdriving the HP.

[50 Caliber]

Lee 310gr RNFP lubed with White Label BAC and a thin coat of Alox, loaded over 17.2gr IMR 4227 from my S&W 629 classic 8&3/8 barrel. Also shoots well in my M92 Rossi rifle.

[Clay M]

I have kill about eight deer with the RCBS 240 GC and 22 gr of 2400 out of my 7.5" Redhawk. They run about 100-150 feet,good blood trail. I have never lost one. I use wheelweights air cooled.I get around 1400fps with that load.

[JesterGrin_1]

Lee 310gr RNFP lubed with White Label BAC and a thin coat of Alox, loaded over 17.2gr IMR 4227 from my S&W 629 classic 8&3/8 barrel. Also shoots well in my M92 Rossi rifle.


It is hard to beat the Lee 310 Gr RNFP/GC. But I am not sure if it is good on the S&W? As in I am not so sure that the S&W can handle those loads for very long. I hope someone chimes in with that information.

[Ed K]

I would love if Lyman would make Devastator mold for the 45 Long Colt.

Search this forum for 454640

[44man]

It is hard to beat the Lee 310 Gr RNFP/GC. But I am not sure if it is good on the S&W? As in I am not so sure that the S&W can handle those loads for very long. I hope someone chimes in with that information.
It is recoil from too heavy. Parts in the design have too much inertia and the two parts that give a problem are the cylinder stop that will unlock and the crane unlocking pin in the center of the cylinder. It is soft and will peen.
Other then that the gun is strong. I limit them to 265 gr boolits but you might be able to go a little more. Never had a problem with hot loads.

[Clay M]

On the S&W, we have used 270 grain bullets with no problems. I personally won't shoot the 300's in any steady diet. I have the Redhawk for that.

[crossbow2]

Wow... these bullets are so sexy....I might have to go behind the shed and rub one out !.



44man what do you think of this load, (45 Colt instead of 44mag but still same principle) 320gr WFN GC (.380" meplat) cast from Lyman #2, air cooled, 1150-1200f/s?

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Reloading/20130527_182014a_zpsea9bd06b.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Reloading/20130527_182014a_zpsea9bd06b.jpg.html)

[50 Caliber]

Ive not had any issues with the 310 Lees in my S&W so far! Its been 10 years. I don't make a habit of shooting them. Just zero the gun, shoot it a few times in the off season with them and that's about it. The rest of the time it gets a steady diet of 240 XTPs or Lyman 429421's.

[44man]

Ive not had any issues with the 310 Lees in my S&W so far! Its been 10 years. I don't make a habit of shooting them. Just zero the gun, shoot it a few times in the off season with them and that's about it. The rest of the time it gets a steady diet of 240 XTPs or Lyman 429421's.
They did some changes in the S&W, called it enhanced. Could be the two parts, harder pin and stronger stop spring. Only 2 things I ever found wrong.

[tuckerdog]

mihec 433-300 hp 17.6 grn imr4227 add a few pounds of soww to coww bang flop. dont know how fast it goes but it's accurate and kills deer dead here in central ohio.

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont get into the technical side of this. I could care less what some scientist, doctor or mold maker says. Ive shot enough deer with cast bullets that like 44man have MY OWN opinion. Ive seen very little differnce in the killing power of a swc compared to an lfn or wfn. Put the bullet in the vitals and the deer usually die pretty fast. thing is no two deer are the same and not to hits are exactly the same so to be fair a guy would probably have to shoot a 100 deer with each to make a wrote in stone opinion.

As to the scientists and there opinions, heck a couple decades ago the cigerette industry could still get doctors to claim cigerettes were good for you. Veral is a sharp man. Hes a sharp salesman too. But hes not a trained ballistics technician. He designed the wfn an lfn and of course hes going to show you facts and figures that make them look like the best and is going to get others to say the same. Bottom line is theres guys here that have killed more game with cast then veral has and many who have probably casted and shot more bullets in there lifetimes. 44man being one of them.

As to velocitys. Ive shot deer bear and pigs with 800-1000 fps loads and yes ive ate 99 percent of them. Ive also killed with 1300-1500 fps loads in handguns and even faster loads in rifles and have ate 99 percent of those too. I kind of like to stay in the middle for most of my hunting. Id bet 75 percent of the cast bullet loads i hunt with out of handguns these days run 1100-1150 and mayby 1200 fps. Those loads are comfortable to shoot out of most guns whether its a 41 mag or a 500 linebaugh. they kill well and are easy on most guns. Stick a 44 cal 240-280 grain lfn, wfn or swc in about any animal in north america at 1100fps and your probably going to eat that animal. But then thats just my opinion and the bottom line is you should be out in the field getting your own opinion rather then quoting someone elses.

[44man]

Lloyd, that is always a good opinion. I hate paper figures. We both kill a lot of deer and that is my Bible and dictionary.
I never, ever use a chronograph to work loads, I use it for fun to see what an accurate load is doing.
It is only the boolit match to the gun in the end no matter what gun.
Some things bother me, first is someone that shot one deer, maybe two. Someone will say you only need a flat nose. Then a guy wants to slow a large caliber and boolit like the .500 S&W that will take the gun into using a shotgun. The best way is to make the boolit work in the gun.
Cast is like buying rifle loads, there are deer bullets and moose bullets, then buf bullets. One size does not fit all.
The pile of lead we have can be changed but remember it took bullet makers 100 years to tailor bullets for the animal and their hardest part was to cross from one animal to another and from 20 yards to 1000 yards.
Maybe the worst thing a hunter can do is to think faster is better without changing the boolit.

[Ramjet-SS]

I would agree Lloyd heck I remember two deer I shot with my little Ruger Number 1 475 Linebaugh with 355 grain cast that was running 1200 FPS and hit those deer facing me and the bullet came out the flank by the tail ran the entire deer they roll backwards DRT and you can eat right up to the hole. Plus lets face many many game animals have been successfully harvested with the SWC. I prefer the devastator HP lower velocities and with my handgun shorter distances. Only because I am not a fancier of recoil anymore.....lol.

[rkcohen]

john linebaugh makes a few observations in his article "gun note: heavywieght bullets" and says:

"My point it this: If you need more power, use a bigger gun. A .44 cal. 300 gr. at 1300 fps will shoot through a lot of material. The same slug will shoot through a bit more at 1500 fps, but so what? As long as we shoot completely through our intended target we've done all the damage we can do. The animal won't know or care if it's 1200 or 1700 fps. All the extra speed does for us is give us more range."

he then goes on to say:

"And with handguns we simply can't get enough velocity to shock big game animals like we can with our medium and big-bore rifles. A sixgun is simply a long-range punch press. It simply punches a hole in game. Often times velocity works against us in penetration if our bullets are too soft, or perhaps, too hard."

so in a few lines, he addresses caliber, weight, velocity, alloy and engagement distance - all variables that can keep us up around the campfire well after our bedtime..

when i lived in florida, i used to use a 44 260 keith from a lyman mold with a not-quite-max charge of 2400 to dispatch our smaller deer there. the load always seemed to drop the target either on the spot or within a few feet - provided i did my part. those deer just weren't that tough..

without being ashamed of "not being the man i once was," these days my engagement ranges seldom go past 50 yards - my eyes just aren't as sharp as they were in my 20-30s..

and i learned to use heavier, harder slugs on pigs...which have proven (at least to me) to be less willing to give "up the ghost" than most ungulates..

a couple of years of experience and getting ribbed by my buddies have all added up i guess. hope any of that helps...

[35 Whelen]

"my point it this: If you need more power, use a bigger gun. A .44 cal. 300 gr. At 1300 fps will shoot through a lot of material. The same slug will shoot through a bit more at 1500 fps, but so what? As long as we shoot completely through our intended target we've done all the damage we can do. The animal won't know or care if it's 1200 or 1700 fps. All the extra speed does for us is give us more range."



amen!!

[hound_dogs_01]

I use a 300gr swcl with 17gr of AA #9 as a deer load

[Lloyd Smale]

John should write a book so that he could share his knowlege with everyone. Hes a modern day Elmer Keith that took kieths ideas and improved on them. Not only that but was talented enough to be able to make his own guns to prove his theroys. John brought us true BIG game hunting with a handgun. Sure there are other talented gunsmiths like Bowen, Huntinton, Reder, Forkin ect but without John starting this thing they would be names that we never heard of. John will allways be king of the bigger is better club.
john linebaugh makes a few observations in his article "gun note: heavywieght bullets" and says:

"My point it this: If you need more power, use a bigger gun. A .44 cal. 300 gr. at 1300 fps will shoot through a lot of material. The same slug will shoot through a bit more at 1500 fps, but so what? As long as we shoot completely through our intended target we've done all the damage we can do. The animal won't know or care if it's 1200 or 1700 fps. All the extra speed does for us is give us more range."

he then goes on to say:

"And with handguns we simply can't get enough velocity to shock big game animals like we can with our medium and big-bore rifles. A sixgun is simply a long-range punch press. It simply punches a hole in game. Often times velocity works against us in penetration if our bullets are too soft, or perhaps, too hard."

so in a few lines, he addresses caliber, weight, velocity, alloy and engagement distance - all variables that can keep us up around the campfire well after our bedtime..

when i lived in florida, i used to use a 44 260 keith from a lyman mold with a not-quite-max charge of 2400 to dispatch our smaller deer there. the load always seemed to drop the target either on the spot or within a few feet - provided i did my part. those deer just weren't that tough..

without being ashamed of "not being the man i once was," these days my engagement ranges seldom go past 50 yards - my eyes just aren't as sharp as they were in my 20-30s..

and i learned to use heavier, harder slugs on pigs...which have proven (at least to me) to be less willing to give "up the ghost" than most ungulates..

a couple of years of experience and getting ribbed by my buddies have all added up i guess. hope any of that helps...

[44man]

Bigger is better with my two punch presses. The hard JRH 440 gr at 1350 fps has deer run from 75 to 120 yards with no blood trails. The 45-70 385 gr WFN at 1600 fps has deer run over 200 yards or just walk away to that distance. I hit one doe twice with the 45-70, almost no blood to track but a neighbor seen her and dropped it for me at almost 300 yards. The deer went up a very steep hill all the while and topped out next to my neighbor.
But either can result in a lost deer in the thick because you can't track them. We have so many deer that there is hardly a foot of ground without deer tracks. Trails are solid tracks.
I made the mistake of wondering about a bad hit but any I recovered were double lung hits. and I seen behind the shoulder hits with the two I lost.
John is right about bigger and about hole punches.
It can be seen with my .44 when I shoot a hard boolit through a deer at 100 yards. They will go farther then one shot at 50 yards, velocity and energy has dropped at long range. Yet the .44 is better then the 45-70 every time. Not until I get expansion does more velocity work and go too far, you will have no meat. The revolver can go from loss to just right to destruction.
Right now the .44 works, the .475 is at the top for quick kills, both with hard boolits with a decent meplat. The .45 Colt works fine.
Linebaugh is saying things right and so is Lloyd. I have over 450 deer kills and I don't remember what Lloyd has, maybe many more.
I have a friend that kills at least 17 deer a year, feeds neighbors and poor but he uses a rifle that I load for. He has used a crossbow but he has no information about revolvers. I just can't talk him into them.

[44man]

Maybe we should add distance to boolit work. Although I limit shots on deer to 100-120 yards, I much prefer closer. Distance changes what a given boolit does.

[DougGuy]

44man, and Lloyd, you guys are among some of the more practical and intelligent shooters on this forum, and I am glad you share your experience and opinions here. Thank you for that.

As I gather it, boolit performance is a combination of factors. A formula if you will. As distance increases, velocity decreases and in order to have expansion at that longer distance, a softer alloy is necessary up to a point where there isn't enough velocity to produce expansion, OR a reasonable amount of penetration. At closer distances, expansion will occur in slightly harder alloy, all other factors being the same.

I do favor the wide meplat design in the 1100-1250f/s range for hunting with a handgun. In the deer we have here, I doubt expansion is very important since the two hole punch of the wide meplat will kill them just as quickly if it doesn't expand. They're just not that big here and the shots I get are more like 25-30yds max.

About expansion, do you think that is enough velocity to produce expansion in WFN boolits from a/c WW or Lyman #2 alloy?

[44man]

With the .44, just don't worry until you get too much expansion at close range.
You are seeing it in real world things. You need no expansion with the .44 at short distances but want a little at long range. You need no expansion at all at short range with the .44.
Very good post.

[Clay M]

I have never gotten any expansion with wheelweight unless I hit bone. Otherwise it punches straight through.

[IridiumRed]

Shoot a good bullet, and hit in the right place.

And by "good bullet" I mean something that fits the game, the load/velocity, and the range... I don't look at different loads/bullets as being "good" or "bad" really.... they just have different uses, different purposes.... they might be good at something, and bad at something else.... its finding that balance that makes for great loads :)

[Hickory]

Shoot a good bullet, and hit in the right place.

Classic statement if ever I heard one.

[IridiumRed]

Classic statement if ever I heard one.

Hickory, that's my personal saying. I probably picked it up somewhere.... but either way I'll take that as a compliment :)

What I didn't post earlier, but I sincerely believe, is that while a bunch of the members of this forum like hunting with good sized calibers, heavy for weight cast bullets, and are quite successful

But..........

I think most of the members here would be successful with their hunting REGARDLESS of what they were shooting. For deer, especially whitetail, I bet most of the members on here would be just as successful with a 25-35, a 44-40 rifle/carbine, or even a warm loaded 32-20.

Why?

Because the sort of man (not to be sexist, I know there are a few women on here that cast / hunt / shoot and I think that's GREAT) that will take the time to not just handload, but also to craft their own bullets, and even design them in some cases, is also the sort of man that makes for a great hunter.

That sort of man is mature and experienced, works within the limits of his equipment, knows how to place a good shot, and doesn't get "buck fever" and simply start spraying rounds downrange at the first sight of fur. And by "working with the equipment" I mean knowing the accuracy of his particular firearm, knowing how far he can shoot and make a good hit, and knowing how that particular bullet will work at that particular speed. IE, the sorta man that knows when he has a warm 32-20 in his hands that a "texas heart shot" (full length from the Southern End of the deer), isn't an ideal shot.... and knows to wait for a good broadside shot.

When I think about guys like that, I think about the members of this forum. I have a HUGE respect for the people who post here. I've had a love affair, so to speak, with firearms for almost 30 years (nearing 40 years old, and got into firearms when I was 7 or 8). Owned a fair bunch (over 125 or so), worked on them a fair amount (going beyond most home gunsmithing in some cases.... like welding up, hard fitting 1911's), and read tons and tons and tons.

This is my FAVORITE firearms website, by far. I don't even cast bullets yet, but probably will here pretty soon. I just love getting on here and reading. This forum has the most creative members. Both in accomplishing things cheaply, easily, but also getting complex / creative / ingenuitive (sp?). I spend hours and hours reading. So much to learn. And I've done a fair share of handloading. And seeing how people here deal with various issues, gives me great ideas on how to handle different projects. This place has sure inspired a lot of ideas in me.

Now, that's not to say that I agree with everyone, in fact there are several people on here that I've read a bunch of posts from that I disagree with. Sometimes strongly. BUT.... I just don't post much on here because, well, I still respect what they have to say, and I don't have a strong enough argument to make in reverse, so I just say quiet. Lots of times, I don't feel like I have much useful to say on some of these topics, besides just agreeing with what has been said. Which is why I've been here a while and haven't posted much.

The first day I cast some bullets, I WILL post pictures here :) Only fair, given all that you have shared with me :)

So anyways, to bring it full circle, I bet most of the people here would be successful regardless of what they were shooting. Its said "its not the arrow, its the indian"... and, well, I think we got some great Indians here! :)

[GaryN]

Good post IridiumRed. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I have been playing around with a couple of Mihec hollowpoint molds. I like to try different alloys and see how they do. I have captured lots of 357 magnum boolits. I have a problem with the 44 mag. They go through everything. I have tried eight milk jugs full of water and not found the boolit. The first three are destroyed. The rest have holes in them. I think the 44 is plenty for deer as long as the range isn't too far. The problem comes in with hitting them. They still would probably kill if you could place a good shot.

[rondog]

This is interesting. I've never shot a deer, but hopefully I'll get a chance this fall. It'll be a <100yd. shot in a populated area, so I'll use my .44 Winchester Trapper carbine. I was already planning on using a 240gr. LSWC bullet, but was figuring a light load would be best. So y'all say a hotter load is better, or at least kills better?

This will be on a 10 acre property, pasture land with no woods or brush to speak of, and houses in the area. So containing the bullet will be paramount and more important than keeping the deer from running a little ways.

[Piedmont]

This is interesting. I've never shot a deer, but hopefully I'll get a chance this fall. It'll be a <100yd. shot in a populated area, so I'll use my .44 Winchester Trapper carbine. I was already planning on using a 240gr. LSWC bullet, but was figuring a light load would be best. So y'all say a hotter load is better, or at least kills better?

This will be on a 10 acre property, pasture land with no woods or brush to speak of, and houses in the area. So containing the bullet will be paramount and more important than keeping the deer from running a little ways.

With a rifle under a hundred yards you should be able to place the bullet well. If it is at all quartering, break a shoulder going in or out while also taking out the lungs. Speed won't matter much if you do that.

I slugged a Trapper .44 long ago and it had a .4315" groove diameter. A rifle like that needs a large diameter bullet, likely a custom mold and custom sizer die. Do you know what yours measures?

[rondog]

With a rifle under a hundred yards you should be able to place the bullet well. If it is at all quartering, break a shoulder going in or out while also taking out the lungs. Speed won't matter much if you do that.

I slugged a Trapper .44 long ago and it had a .4315" groove diameter. A rifle like that needs a large diameter bullet, likely a custom mold and custom sizer die. Do you know what yours measures?

No, not a clue. It's pretty accurate though for having only iron sights, I had it out for sight-in a week ago and surprised myself by making some very good shots at 100yds.

[Lloyd Smale]

Iridiumred your probably right but the thing is theres many of us here that are allways looking for the holy grail of bullet and load that works well in all circumstances. Not just the gun and load that will get you by. Thing is were a bunch of opinionated sobs and our hunting circumstances arent allways the same.

[44man]

You need energy otherwise a boolit/bullet is just a needle. You also want penetration at least as deep as you can get even if not a pass through. I do like two holes though. My most important consideration is a good blood trail, never cared how far a deer went as long as I can track it.
Energy is the mystery but I figure, from all I have seen, it is where the energy is exerted inside the deer, not how much you start with. My .500 has a lot more energy then the .44 but with the wrong boolit it does not know a deer was in the way. Neither does my 45-70 revolver with a boolit too hard.
I fell for the old saw about just needing a big meplat so I thought the WFN in my large calibers was all good---yeah, until I shot enough deer to see failures. Makes a guy cuss to find no blood and having to spend hours to find the deer. Just finding a hole through pink lungs blew me away. I hate crawling on my knees to find a drop of blood like a pin head. Then trails split into 3 or 4, full of tracks. Have to go up every one looking for another pin head.
I found, heavier and slower boolits work better then light fast ones that have much more book energy figures. They tended to stop short and lost energy to heat and too much expansion. Energy dump is the biggest myth ever because it is not all applied to tissue damage. A boolit at 50 yards has less energy then you feel in your hand. Any bullet with too much expansion will lose all at the first big bone.
The .44 with a 300 to 320 gr at about 1300 fps or so, cast hard, seems to blend perfectly to deer. The 240 XTP opens too fast so I would go to a Gold Dot. The 300 XTP comes back but stay away from the magnum bullets, need more velocity, they are for a rifle.
Last three deer I shot last season was with the 310 Lee, water dropped WW's, put 5 in the SBH, had 2 left. Deer went down fast with gallons of blood on the ground. Just have to love that boolit!

[44man]

Now the man that needs to limit penetration because of where he hunts has a problem. He has to contain the bullet, not easy with lead unless soft or hollow pointed. The 240 XTP will work as long as you can watch the deer until it falls. But he has to consider tracking down the block to find a deer in a back yard with women and kids looking out the window.
Situations change. A friend has to dump deer or it will be stolen, too many poor "sportsmen" and hunters. Some have a huge hill that a deer can go down. Others hunt in the thick where a deer is out of sight in a jump. We all have different needs.
I have different experiences where I have hunted. A few times when I got to my deer, there was another hunter there looking at it. I pointed to my deer and asked him if he wanted it. I gave a few deer away in Ohio and made a friend. Here I have a hard time giving them away but they will help me drag.
Only two things important, clean miss or do all you can to find the deer! I will gut a found fresh kill and sit and wait for the hunter, then help him get it out. If he doesn't show up is when I get disgusted. I will look for him but it means he is one of those that expects the deer to drop or he missed.
PA was a mess. I would shoot a deer with my bow and hang it next to the tent. I tied a string to the leg and ran it in the tent to a pile of pots, pans and silverware. Put leaves on the string. Middle of the night it would all crash and I would hear guys running. Deer were stolen from camps, right off porches. If you had to track, many guys found drag marks.
I have a million stories, should have wrote a book. The best in people to the very worst can be found in the field.

[IridiumRed]

Iridiumred your probably right but the thing is theres many of us here that are allways looking for the holy grail of bullet and load that works well in all circumstances. Not just the gun and load that will get you by. Thing is were a bunch of opinionated sobs and our hunting circumstances arent allways the same.

Lloyd, I actually agree with you

When it comes to my hobbies, my "passions / obsessions", I ALWAYS strive for better. With my firearms, I'm always trying to shoot better, harder, longer, smoother, faster - whether its by load or working on them / doing gunsmithing work. Like with my motorcycles I spend a lot of time on the racetrack with my bike - and I'm talking asphalt roadrace track btw).

So, the point I want to make here MIGHT be somewhat subtle or simple to some people, but I think its HUGE -

There is a huge difference between -

A. Having an inadequate combination that just doesn't work well (ie, having problems that MUST be overcome to be reasonably successful, not just depending on blind luck).

- versus -

B. Already having a "plenty good enough" combination and just striving to make it better!


In other words, we've discussed tons of combinations / setups that are guaranteed to work on this forum - theres plenty of good advice to follow, if you stick within a certain range of firearms / loads / calibers u WILL be successful. And a man has to have confidence in his equipment; and knowing that even if he hasn't found his "holy grail" load yet, that what he has is gonna do the job. Theres always better, but you gotta know when you have "plenty good enough" :)

(and I apologize for being so wordy, I just tend to talk a lot, but I like to communicate my ideas in such a way that its really clear what I mean - regardless of whether or not someone agrees with me, I like it when people know what I meant w/ little uncertainty)

[nickE10mm]

Lloyd, I actually agree with you

When it comes to my hobbies, my "passions / obsessions", I ALWAYS strive for better. With my firearms, I'm always trying to shoot better, harder, longer, smoother, faster - whether its by load or working on them / doing gunsmithing work. Like with my motorcycles I spend a lot of time on the racetrack with my bike - and I'm talking asphalt roadrace track btw).

So, the point I want to make here MIGHT be somewhat subtle or simple to some people, but I think its HUGE -

There is a huge difference between -

A. Having an inadequate combination that just doesn't work well (ie, having problems that MUST be overcome to be reasonably successful, not just depending on blind luck).

- versus -

B. Already having a "plenty good enough" combination and just striving to make it better!


In other words, we've discussed tons of combinations / setups that are guaranteed to work on this forum - theres plenty of good advice to follow, if you stick within a certain range of firearms / loads / calibers u WILL be successful. And a man has to have confidence in his equipment; and knowing that even if he hasn't found his "holy grail" load yet, that what he has is gonna do the job. Theres always better, but you gotta know when you have "plenty good enough" :)

(and I apologize for being so wordy, I just tend to talk a lot, but I like to communicate my ideas in such a way that its really clear what I mean - regardless of whether or not someone agrees with me, I like it when people know what I meant w/ little uncertainty)

Excellent post and I agree 1000%

[JesterGrin_1]

[QUOTE=44man;2389934
Situations change. A friend has to dump deer or it will be stolen, too many poor "sportsmen" and hunters.
I have different experiences where I have hunted. A few times when I got to my deer, there was another hunter there looking at it. I pointed to my deer and asked him if he wanted it. I gave a few deer away in Ohio and made a friend. Here I have a hard time giving them away but they will help me drag.
Only two things important, clean miss or do all you can to find the deer! I will gut a found fresh kill and sit and wait for the hunter, then help him get it out. If he doesn't show up is when I get disgusted. I will look for him but it means he is one of those that expects the deer to drop or he missed.
PA was a mess. I would shoot a deer with my bow and hang it next to the tent. I tied a string to the leg and ran it in the tent to a pile of pots, pans and silverware. Put leaves on the string. Middle of the night it would all crash and I would hear guys running. Deer were stolen from camps, right off porches. If you had to track, many guys found drag marks.
I have a million stories, should have wrote a book. The best in people to the very worst can be found in the field.[/QUOTE]

Some of this stuff I read about so called hunters stealing other peoples game just bewilders me. As it is something I have never had to deal with or even heard of. But I am in South Texas so all the land is pretty much owned. In other words no real public lands to hunt. So hunters on a given land area are few. And many have to pay high prices to hunt certain areas. To pay $3000.00 for a Deer lease for one season is not unheard of but rather more common than not.

Besides in South Texas if someone was to try and steal another persons game it would not be a pretty scene lol. We have Trees and many carry rope and all they need is a bit of wax lol.

But honestly I do feel for the many hunters that have to worry about such things as well as heavily hunted areas where safety is a big concern.

Do not worry though lol. It really does not get cold down here so we still have to be on the look out for those rattle snakes along with Mosquitoes not to mention cactus of all kinds and Mesquite trees with those nice 2" thorns lol.

On to BOOLIT as 44Man says I feel it is darn hard to beat the Lee 310Gr.

[IridiumRed]

This is interesting. I've never shot a deer, but hopefully I'll get a chance this fall. It'll be a <100yd. shot in a populated area, so I'll use my .44 Winchester Trapper carbine. I was already planning on using a 240gr. LSWC bullet, but was figuring a light load would be best. So y'all say a hotter load is better, or at least kills better?

This will be on a 10 acre property, pasture land with no woods or brush to speak of, and houses in the area. So containing the bullet will be paramount and more important than keeping the deer from running a little ways.

I've given this some thought, and have a few comments -

First, it warms my heart to hear your concern for your neighbors / surrounding people, I'm glad to hear that you are thinking of them and trying to be safe :) Too many people any more just do whatever they want, without thinking of others (we've got a lot of good people on this forum, so being kind / considerate is no surprise; but its always nice to see)

In terms of taking care of this situation, my SECOND thought was.... do you have a 12 gauge ?? Or can you beg / borrow / get your hands on one??

This sounds like a PERFECT opportunity for a 12 gauge! If you could keep your shots under 40 yards, buckshot would be great!! I can't think of a situation where 00 buck would be better.

From what I understand, the MAXIMUM range of 00 buck is only about 700 yards, and again that's MAX range (firing up in the air at about 30 degrees elevation). This is of course starting it out at shotgun velocity (1100-1300 fps or so), but small round balls like that have such a poor ballistic coefficient that they lose speed so quickly that firing it a LOT faster (like 2200 fps out of a muzzle loader for example) only adds a small amount of range. Kick that out the barrel at twice the speed (low 2k FPS range), and you might only pick up another 100 yards. This is because by the time it gets to 100 yards its already slowed down to about 1300 fps anyways.

And, again, that's MAX possible range firing it in the air. I don't know exactly how the "math" works out for a ricochet situation, but I bet that even if the pellets hit the ground & bounced off at a 30 degree angle the buckshot wouldn't go nearly as far (they'd lose energy in the impact, and also would be farther out of round, more flattened out, making them even less aerodynamic).

I hear the Federal Flite Control buckshot loads have awesome patterns.... I'm not sure if they just make them in tactical loadings (like 8 or 9 00 buck) or if they make 3" magnum loadings, which I would expect would be in the 12-15 pellet range... but I hear they pattern great, and TIGHT too

Or, depending on what kind of barrel you would have on that 12 gauge, rifled or smoothbore, you might be able to come up with a slug load that would be good for 75 to even 100 yards (75 yards for a slug load that works well from a smoothbore, or 100 yards or a bit more for a rifled barrel load)

Slugs don't travel very far either. Of course, if you start talking about lead projectiles being fired down in the low 1,000 FPS area, I'm not sure if the ricochet potential is much different than what you were planning on using

Either way, I'll shut up about the 12 gauge for the moment because I don't know if its even a possibility.

I think this has been mentioned above, but another way to go is go for HIGH SPEED and a more frangible bullet. Something like that might go a lot farther if you aimed it up in the air, BUT might ricochet a lot less because it might go fast enough to break up when it hit the ground. The ground might not stop it, but if it dumps a lot of energy into the ground, and breaks into a bunch of small fragments, those fragments probably wont go far.

If this was a 44mag handgun, a good 180 JHP at high speed (like 1600 fps) or so might do the trick, but at rifle speeds you'd want something heavier... even a 200 jhp might be too light.

But anyways, launched at high enough speed to break the bullet up, the potential for ricochet would be much reduced. Of course, that's assuming it hits the ground at full speed (ie, total miss), but if it hit the deer, I would guess the right bullet would dump almost all of its energy in the deer and have little speed on the exit.

This is all conjecture, I'm going out on a limb here, so all I can offer is IDEAS.... wish I had straight answers, but I don't.....

One last thing, when I worry about ricochets with your load, I think about 22 LR. They're soft slugs at about the same velocity as the load you mentioned, and 22 LR seems to be quite prone to ricochets....

[TCTex]

I am not trying to stir the pot, just throwing info out there...

A lot of factory 44 ammo pushes a 240gr bullet at 1200fps.

Current production factory 44 ammo is anemic compared to what it use to be.

IMHO, if you do your part and put the bullet where it needs to go you don't have to worry about the small stuff. To me 100-150 is small stuff. If I am having to depend on 100 fps difference in performance "I" didn't do something right.

[44man]

Going to need some expansion to slow the boolit/bullet in the deer, no way out but a miss is still going to be a worry.
I am thinking of a pure lead nose on a hard base for cast. Actually the 240 XTP does good behind the shoulders, I recovered all three I used against the rib cage. Just almost no blood trails but I seen the deer all drop at around 60 yards. A Gold Dot should get through but will be very slow after.
Hard cast from a revolver will surprise you with it's penetration, my .45 colt at 1160 fps penetrated a 16" tree, cut a huge grapevine in half and I never found the boolit in the dirt. Hard from the .475 does 37" in soaked books. A house will not stop these.
I would stay away from light, explosive bullets like the 180. You can lose a lot of deer. Forget about "dump", it doesn't work.
All of this is why I don't like a .357 for deer, too hard to get exactly the right bullet and half the deer shot can be lost.
A lot is said about "placement" but don't forget, it is a revolver and the number of those that "place" a boolit is very, very small on deer. Many can't do it with a rifle. You must kill a great many deer before they don't excite you any more.
We have a great bunch here but some never killed a deer, some killed a few and some killed many so the range of expertise is not that large. An excited hunter can be blind to surroundings when a deer appears. It takes experience to see all and let a deer walk or wait for the perfect shot that is safe. I will never stop stressing safety, there is not a single deer worth being unsafe. There is also an element of greed with some hunters that blind them.
We are here for a reason, we shoot all the time and get to know each other. 99% of hunters never take the rifle out until opening day, archers and revolver shooters shoot all year. I fully expect those here to be the best and the OP has voiced a valid concern, he earned top shot from me.

[nickE10mm]

....99% of hunters never take the rifle out until opening day, archers and revolver shooters shoot all year. I fully expect those here to be the best and the OP has voiced a valid concern, he earned top shot from me.

Yep .... I've been out about 40-45 weekends in the last 12 months with my SBH Hunter.... I'll be quite ready, as usual.

[rondog]

OK, I don't have the stuff to cast bullets yet, I hang out here for many other reasons. But as I mentioned earlier, I plan to try for a deer this year with my .44mg Winchester Trapper. At under 100 yards in a populated rural area.

So, I have commercial-made 240gr. LSWC's that I've loaded, which might be too hard? I also have these two types of .44mag bullets. Would either of these be more suitable for the situation? I know the Leverevolutions are made for deer, just not familiar with their performance. The other is a Winchester bullet, I can't recall the weight, but essentially a Ranger SXT-type s/d bullet. Like the old Black Talons only not black.

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/ammo%20and%20reloading/DSCN1820.jpg

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b150/rinselman/guns/ammo%20and%20reloading/DSCN1809.jpg

[white eagle]

"Going to need some expansion to slow the boolit/bullet in the deer, no way out but a miss is still going to be a worry.
I am thinking of a pure lead nose on a hard base for cast."

that is why i will be using a gas checked boolit alloyed out of 16-1 at moderate speed 1227 fps
not a really a jynormous deep hp but not a small shallow one either

[44man]

I think all those would work. In all these years I can only go by what I have seen and have not tried all those bullets. This is where I just don't know and can't tell anything.
Yet no matter what you decide on, know where you are and where all houses are. Also think of the yards with a neighbor outside.
The best I can suggest is to hunt from a tree stand so you shoot at the ground.

[IridiumRed]

The best I can suggest is to hunt from a tree stand so you shoot at the ground.

+1 on that. A BIG +1

Getting some elevation so you can shoot down and prevent a ricochet that way.... is a real good idea

Rondog - forgive me if you already said this earlier in the thread, but is this land totally flat, or are there are least some small hills, any sort of river/creek gullies (even old waterways that are dry now). Any of those could help provide a natural backstop so you are shooting more into a hill, rather than just flat ground

Also, do you currently shoot on this land?? Or have another place to shoot that's easy / convenient to get to? If so, I think it would be interesting to do a little testing. With a good safe backstop, put some targets on the ground and a big piece of cardboard behind them, and shoot at those targets at various angles. That would give you an idea of how easily your bullets will bounce... and at what angles. Of course, do this in such a way that if they bounce, no matter what angle they bounce off, that they'll be caught by the backstop....

Now, IF you had a place like that to try this, the surface would have to be about the same as where you hunt to make it relevant - ie, if the target area was hard packed gravel, and where you hunt is just regular dirt / grass, it wouldn't necessarily teach you that much......

Anyways. Just throwing out an idea. Personally I keep thinking that a low / moderate velocity cast bullet will ricochet more than a higher velocity JHP because it (the cast bullet) just wont break up when it hits the ground.... and like a 22 LR bounce pretty easily. A couple of those JHP loads shown above might be a good solution, esp that hornady load, but I'd have to look up more before I voted that way...


As always sorry for being so wordy :)

[rondog]

+1 on that. A BIG +1

Getting some elevation so you can shoot down and prevent a ricochet that way.... is a real good idea

Rondog - forgive me if you already said this earlier in the thread, but is this land totally flat, or are there are least some small hills, any sort of river/creek gullies (even old waterways that are dry now). Any of those could help provide a natural backstop so you are shooting more into a hill, rather than just flat ground

Also, do you currently shoot on this land?? Or have another place to shoot that's easy / convenient to get to? If so, I think it would be interesting to do a little testing. With a good safe backstop, put some targets on the ground and a big piece of cardboard behind them, and shoot at those targets at various angles. That would give you an idea of how easily your bullets will bounce... and at what angles. Of course, do this in such a way that if they bounce, no matter what angle they bounce off, that they'll be caught by the backstop....

Now, IF you had a place like that to try this, the surface would have to be about the same as where you hunt to make it relevant - ie, if the target area was hard packed gravel, and where you hunt is just regular dirt / grass, it wouldn't necessarily teach you that much......

Anyways. Just throwing out an idea. Personally I keep thinking that a low / moderate velocity cast bullet will ricochet more than a higher velocity JHP because it (the cast bullet) just wont break up when it hits the ground.... and like a 22 LR bounce pretty easily. A couple of those JHP loads shown above might be a good solution, esp that hornady load, but I'd have to look up more before I voted that way...


As always sorry for being so wordy :)

To be honest, I don't know, never been there. The owner is an acquaintance who's told me it's 10 acres of pasture. I know the terrain is gently rolling hills, surrounded with other 10 acre "horse properties".

The deer are so thick they're a nuisance, traffic hazard, and the DOW wants to prevent a CWD outbreak. This particular landowner gets 10 depradation permits for does each fall to help thin them out.

He says the shooting lanes are fairly limited, so they prefer to go to a certain spot and shoot back towards his own house, rather than endanger neighbors.

He usually uses a 9mm carbine, with the Game Warden's blessing, others use his .30-30. I have the Winchester .44, we figure that's gotta be safer than a .30-30 in that area. My next choice is an M1 .30 carbine with Barnes 100gr. hollowpoints, made for deer and loaded hot.

The M1 has a red dot on it, and is deadly accurate (it's a 70's-era Plainfield in great shape, not a worn-out USGI). I have a 4x Bushnell Banner for the Winnie, waiting for the mailman to deliver the new scope mount for it right now. I want to be able to do this in one accurate shot.

[IridiumRed]

To be honest, I don't know, never been there. The owner is an acquaintance who's told me it's 10 acres of pasture. I know the terrain is gently rolling hills, surrounded with other 10 acre "horse properties".

The deer are so thick they're a nuisance, traffic hazard, and the DOW wants to prevent a CWD outbreak. This particular landowner gets 10 depradation permits for does each fall to help thin them out.

He says the shooting lanes are fairly limited, so they prefer to go to a certain spot and shoot back towards his own house, rather than endanger neighbors.

He usually uses a 9mm carbine, with the Game Warden's blessing, others use his .30-30. I have the Winchester .44, we figure that's gotta be safer than a .30-30 in that area. My next choice is an M1 .30 carbine with Barnes 100gr. hollowpoints, made for deer and loaded hot.

The M1 has a red dot on it, and is deadly accurate (it's a 70's-era Plainfield in great shape, not a worn-out USGI). I have a 4x Bushnell Banner for the Winnie, waiting for the mailman to deliver the new scope mount for it right now. I want to be able to do this in one accurate shot.

Well, I think that answers some of the questions / potential issues I had.... Sounds like the property owner (your friend) has hunted the property a fair amount, and already has an understanding of the layout & potential problems. And shooting back towards his property isn't a bad idea. I mean, if there is a bullet that bounces, its more fair / ethical to let it bounce back towards your side than someone else's..... not a great solution but a more fair one....

Between your .44 and that M1 carbine, I'd say "Shoot whichever one you can hit the best with"

If you can ensure that the bullet hits the deer, even if it goes through, then 90% of the ricochet worries are nullified, in my humble opinion.... esp with a fast moving, expanding bullet. It should lose most of its energy in the deer, and be going pretty slow & be pretty beat up by the time it exits... if it exits at all.......

Anyways. Just my 2 cents. Probably up to a quarter by now given all the posts... *laughs* though I don't know if its worth a quarter.. haha

[dmize]

My 2 cents.
I live in central Missouri.I shot 2 deer with the much talked about "hard casts".
1 with a 44 Mag and 250 Keith and 1 with a hyper loaded 45 Colt with a 270 RCBS. The buck with the 45 is the LAST deer around here I will intentionally shoot with a cast bullet,EXCEPT for my 454.
Our deer aren't huge and our brush is thick.
I have killed about 10 using XTP's,very predictable results,HUGE blood splash at place of impact and heavy blood trail and always 2 holes.
I am a bow hunter and only shoot for heart/lungs.
I played around with Black Talons when I was a cop,the behave almost exactly like a Hornady XTP.
One word of warning,if you get into a shoulder or ham you will be throwing away some meat.

[44man]

You can't shoot hard boolits too fast as I have said a million times. Going lighter in the .44 justs ups the velocity even when you work the boolit for accuracy. Taking a 240-250 gr boolit to 1500 to 1600 fps will lose deer and it seems most .44 owners look for velocity.
Might be why my heavy boolit choice for hard cast works better because they are slower.
I can assure anyone that hard boolits shot to max in a .454 might be far worse.
The .45 Colt with 335 to 347 gr boolits at 1160 fps has done a great job on deer. I will never go to a hard 250 gr at as fast as I can drive them.
Velocity can be your enemy, there are places where expansion MUST be used.
Expansion is GOOD as long as you get depth and the boolit does not break up or stop with even little bone or fails to penetrate deep enough with a quartering shot.
Anyone with a failure from hard cast is always shooting too fast.

[Blammer]

my two cents

44mag 1350 fps 250gr RF bullet, ACWW distance about 12 yds. :)

bullet path in green, complete penetration.

http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g81/blammer8mm/2008%20Deer/bulletpath.jpg (http://s54.photobucket.com/user/blammer8mm/media/2008%20Deer/bulletpath.jpg.html)

[44man]

Good Blammer, see what I mean? Don't need or want 1500 fps+ with a hard boolit.
Nice deer too. Seeing the bloodshot area, the boolit did a lot inside without meat loss.
I bet you needed to hose that one out good!
By the way 2 cents not enough, how about $100?

[Blammer]

actually, I shot that deer one more time as I thought I missed at such a close range. Buck fever don't you know.

anyway, as the deer was running directly away from me. I put another one down range at him. The bullet went between the skin and the rib cage on the deer's right side and then out missing the front shoulder and any other bones. 2 inches to the right and I would have missed clean, two more inches to the left and I would have taken out the heart.

That is all the blood shot meat you see on the rib cage. It's on the outside only.

the deer ran a total of 30 yds and piled up.

the entrance and exit holes were very clean.

[RED333]

Well I finely got to cast some 210 gr and 230 gr, over 6 gr of titegroup.
40 yards with a scope about 1.5 to 2 inch spread. Now I am a fair shooter,
not great, so far I am happy for the first time out with a new pistol.(well new to me)
New Model Super Black Hawk
http://i896.photobucket.com/albums/ac165/redintn/pistols/SuperBlackHawk44Mag_zpsd6a77d52.jpg (http://s896.photobucket.com/user/redintn/media/pistols/SuperBlackHawk44Mag_zpsd6a77d52.jpg.html)