What's The Difference?

[Cayoot]

I recently purchased a .44 mag (S&W Mnt Gun Model 29). This is my first .44 so I've been looking alot into different loadings.

In my search I came across an article entitled "Elmer's Loads". Of course, anything developed by the Grand Master himself automatically catches my interest.

Well, long story short, I read that one of his prefered loads for the .44 was 18 grains of .2400 under his 240-250 boolit. That struck a familiar tone because I've been using his .45 Colt load for years....18 grains of 2400 under a 250 boolit.

So what's the difference? I know...larger case space in the .45 means less pressure....but, still both are 18 grains of 2400 pushing a 250 gr boolit....So I'm thinking that I really didn't gain anything by purchasing the 44 (cuz my most often shot gun is another S&W Mnt Gun...M-625 in .45 Colt) I shoot the same load in both mnt guns....I guess I'm wondering if I'm not looking at this right.

Can someone tell me why Elmer liked the same load in the two different calibers?

Shouldn't they perform almost identically? :confused:

[C A Plater]

A .44 bullet of the same weight as a .45 will have a bit higher sectional density (longer) and being a smaller case and bore it may fly faster with the same charge and may penetrate a bit more. Elmer had a liking for maximum penetration and this may have floated his boat. Whether this makes any real world difference I wouldn't know.

[targetshootr]

Because the cylinders are the same size, you may be able to hotrod the 44 since the walls are thicker between chambers than the 45.
For some reason I was thinking 18 gr is what he used in 44 spl.

[dubber123]

Because the cylinders are the same size, you may be able to hotrod the 44 since the walls are thicker between chambers than the 45.
For some reason I was thinking 18 gr is what he used in 44 spl.

I'm pretty sure his 44 mag load was 22 grains of 2400. The 18 grain load is likely his 44 Special loading. I have a 629 Mountain Gun, and the 625 version. Given equal bullet weights, my two are basically a dead heat, within a few fps. of each other. The .45 Colt will do it with less pressure though, which is good, because the cylinders aren't real beefy.

[Cayoot]

I have a 629 Mountain Gun, and the 625 version.

So what do you feed in your 629 Mnt Gun that gives it an edge over the .45 Colt? Or at least "different?"

[Dale53]

A number of years ago, the NRA (see one of the two NRA Reloading Manuals) ran tests on Keith's .44 Special load. Keith loaded 18.0 grs in a folded head cases. Folded head cases hold quite a bit more powder than modern solid head cases. NRA determined that 16.5 grs of 2400 in SOLID HEAD cases gave about the same performance as Keith's original 18.0 (or 18.5) load in folded head cases. The folded head case load in solid cases is over pressure for .44 special guns whereas, the 16.5 load is just fine.

Of course, in .44 mag cases in a good .44 magnum, you can load Keith's 22.0 grs behind a 240-250 gr bullet just fine.

NOTE:
It has been reported by Ed Harris, and others, that modern 2400 is considerably faster burning due to new Government Security regulations (the basic composition has been changed?). Before I would blindly load the new 2400 to the same level as the "old" 2400, it might be a VERY good idea to drop an e-mail to Alliant and see what the REAL scoop is.

Of course, if you have some of the old 2400 and some of the new 2400 and access to a chronograph, you can run some tests and let US know what you have found out[smilie=1:

Dale53

[MT Gianni]

Elmer developed his 44 Mag and Special loads and loved them both as they both shot to the same point of aim. He claimed that they were the only 2 load levels in the same bullet caliber that did so. That was as big of a factor in the 44's being his go to guns I believe. Gianni

[454PB]

You have to realize that there were few slow burning pistol powders when Keith was doing his experimentation somewhere in the time frame of 1925 to 1955. The selection of powders we have now would be mind boggling to Elmer. I recently printed a powder burn rate chart I found on the internet and it lists 246 powders!

I'll second what Dale53 said....be cautious using the old 22 grain recipe with modern day 2400.

[dubber123]

So what do you feed in your 629 Mnt Gun that gives it an edge over the .45 Colt? Or at least "different?"

With my loads, bullet pull is what stopped me, not flat primers or sticky extraction. I thought I remembered them being very close, so I looked it up in my notes: A 315 grain hardcast went 1,078 fps. in the .44, a 320 gr. hardcast went 1,062 fps. in the .45 Colt version. 16 fps. difference, with a 5 gr. advantage to the Colt caliber. I expect the .44 to penetrate better, but the .45's got the bigger bore. I like them both, but the .45's my favorite. I'd say there is no "reason" to get one over the other, unless you are a non-reloader/caster, in which case the .44 has the factory ammo advantage.

[felix]

Dubber, at pistol velocities using nominal boolit weight for the cartridges, you will find that the 41 mag will out penetrate them all. This says nothing about killing power, though. For S&Gs, I wonder about faster velocities, such as the big 35s versus the others in rifle calibers, i.e., 35Whelen versus a 416 maggie versus a 45 maggie at 2400 fps using their respective standard boolits, all with the same meplat at 70 percent. ... felix

[45 2.1]

Keiths plinking load of 2400 was 18.0 gr. in the 44 mag, his full load was 22.0 gr. Thats something that is not very well known. The 18.0 gr. load is very nice for plinking and bumming around in the woods with, you'll like it.

[9.3X62AL]

Recent shooting with a Model 624 x 6.5" showed 15.0 grains of "new" 2400 under #429421 to be all the load I wanted in 44 Special cases or platforms. Velocities ran 1100 FPS, and had pretty small variance. That is as warm a load as I need. Most of my 44 Special shooting gets done with Skeeter's Load, the all-occasion 7.5 grains of Unique. The Not-Quite-Elmer's Load is for state ceremonies and special engagements.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have shot a whole hea of 'Elmer's' through my 44s and they are a nice load. I'm still using up my old stocks of 2400 from 8-10 years ago. I have a new tin, but from what I hear I'll have to throttle back some.

Elmer's classic load is not pedal to the metal stuff, but in 'Sixguns' he said something along the lines of it not being necessary to go any faster and this was a good load.

Nowwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww, if you really want to get a smile on yer dial, get some 296 and a Winchester flyer for the load, it is moving along right smartly!

When I got my first 44, I didn't pick up my 357 for a year or so the 44 was so much fun.

[targetshootr]

Couple of months ago I loaded some 250Ks in 44 spl with 13 gr 2400 and I was surprised how much oomph it packed. The occassion was a friend who bought one of Keith's own 1950 Targets and I was in charge of ammo that day. It's as far as I care to horse a Smith or mid-frame Ruger 44 spl SA.

[leftiye]

Vis a vis the comparison of 44 mag and 45 Colt Mr Linebaugh has some VERY interesting reading. Also, the old time Cougar hunters preferred the .44 Spec. over the .45 Colt (factory loads because the smaller dia. (higher sectional density) boolit penetrated better.

My guess is to match the sectional density of the 44 250 gr loads with a maybe 300 grainer in the .45 C and run pressures up to 30,000 psi, and you will have it all! I know this argument goes on forever, and I don't EVEN want to start talking about bigger ctgs.. If it kills anything you can find to shoot at, it might well be big enough?