45-90 Cases Won't Chamber in Shiloh

[ColColt]

I have a problem with my recent(today) cartridges chambering in a Shiloh 45-90. Last week I loaded 20 rounds using the Buffalo Arms Postell and had no problems at all. Earlier I had determined that the OAL would be 3.208" which just kissed the lands. I seated to 3.205". Yesterday evening I received the Brooks Postell mold I had ordered, cast about 100 today and started loading some of them later. I seated those the same length as the other ones and they would not chamber. Thinking there may be a minute difference in those boolits I seated .005" shorter...still wouldn't chamber. I thought something was wrong with the case or its length, pulled the boolit, picked the powder and wad out and it measured the same as the others I had measured before. I even lightly crimped the case to no avail. It still won't chamber although my dummy round that's .005" longer chambers easily.

I don't know what else to figure in this. It doesn't make sense. I checked the dimensions of the case right at the mouth and right ahead of the extractor groove. All were within .001" of my dummy round. I'm sure open for any comments and/or suggestions. It's a good thing I tried this before heading for the range. You can't push that cartridge in with your thumb and the breech block won't close as about an eighth of the case and rim is sticking out. You can push till your thumb turns blue and it's not going any further. My final length after reseating several times is 3.185",.020" deeper than those I loaded last week with the other boolit and shorter than my dummy round with the same boolit. I stopped at that point as I didn't want to seat any deeper. The one odd thing I checked is that the ogive of the boolits cast are right at .450" but checking that same area of the loaded round miked at .453"-.455". Totally makes no sense.

[country gent]

Is the loaded rounds bullet the same batch as the cast. Possibly thru seating sizing the pressure to do these has caused the nose to "bump" up/ Your bore should be around .450 with in a .001 or so. .453 -.455 will definitly be an interference fit. What do the as cast measure before seating or sizing? Are you compressing powder with a seperate die or with the bullet? Compressing the powder with the bullet or tight neck tension can cause this to happen also.

[ColColt]

No, the ones I loaded last week are Buffalo Arms boolits. Those cast and attempted to load today were from the Brooks mold. One problem I noticed the first time I attempted to seat the boolit was how it resisted terribly going into the case. It was a chunk, chunk, chunk...all the way down. I pulled another bullet from a dummy round after this seating process and the brass had resized it to .458" whereby my as cased size was .460" and I resized to .459". so, the brass resized it .001. I pulled the expander and it measures .456". That's .003" difference between the expander and the finished and sized boolit diameter. Although I don't know apparently but think at least part of the problem is the stiffness and resistance to being seated and causing it to be resized by .001" may be due in part to the problem. I think it's swelling the boolit...or so it seems.

The Buffalo Arms boolits loaded last week were .458" and there was no trouble seating them nor chambering them. I got the .459" Lyman die to have boolits .001" over groove diameter...shouldn't have been a problem.

I am compressing about .225" with a die except for the final .005-.008" and let the bullet do that. That's not much and I did it last week with no problem. I meant to add these are new Starline cases and I annealed the necks and did not size them.

[montana_charlie]

I am compressing about .225" with a die except for the final .005-.008" and let the bullet do that.
Don't do that.
Compress the powder with the compression die.
Do not compress the powder with the bullet ... especially the last several thousandths.
Those final increments happen when the powder is most solid, and take the greatest force to pack it down.

If, during the course of checking to make sure that rounds will chamber, you find that some will not - don't push those bullets down with a bullet seating die. You will just fatten up the noses.

Pull the bullet and use the compression die to set the wad down deeper.


ALWAYS use a die to compress to seating depth, then seat the bullet at THAT depth. That's all.




Another thing to consider is that maybe you have swollen the case during the powder compression.
If true, it will measure 'fatter' than other cases somewhere in it's body.

You can correct the problem ... even after the bullet is seated ... this way:
- Remove the depriming punch from your 45/90 full-length sizing die.
- Back the die up out of the press about ten turns.
- Run the 'fattened' case up into the die, and screw the die down until it gets tight.
- Lower the ram and screw the die in one more turn.
- Run the case fully up into the die, then see if it will chamber.
- If it won't, adjust the die (a bit at a time) until the case chambers.

CM

[ColColt]

Thanks and advice well taken. It just puzzled me why there were no problems like this last week with the 20 I had already loaded. It did help after I thought about it, to adjust the expander so that it would bell the case mouth a little more. I didn't get that "skidding" down inside the case as before when seating the bullet. It's flared enough to cover the base band now instead of just half of it.

I'll go at it again tomorrow and follow your advice about not compressing any...even a few thousandths, with the bullet. That expander is. 458" and I just couldn't imagine it being the problem with just a .459" bullet or resizing the bullet to .458". That I didn't want.

[country gent]

Another question is what cases are you using? Starline states that thier brass should be annealed for black powder loads. You might try a expander at .458 as the brass may be springing back some. Bullet dia and case wall thickness and case wall thickness minus .001/.002 will give you an idea of expander needed. Annealing the cases will help stop the spring back also. Measure a few expanded case mouths with your calipers and your expander this will tell you if it is springing back of the expander.

[ColColt]

I am using Starline and annealed them for the top 1/2" or so and the expander is .458". That's why I couldn't figure what was going on unless I just didn't have the cases belled enough. I do that as little as I can get by with without shaving lead.

Expansion of the case mouth is .458"(+-.001) Before expansion it was .456".

[country gent]

Was just something that need checking quick and easy.

[ColColt]

I tried this morning and things were a bit better but still getting that "ratcheting" feel as I seat the bullet. If I flare anymore the case mouth will look like a trumpet. You can hear and feel the brass scraping the inside of the expander die. At least the ogive's not swelling as before and measures .450" instead of the .455" before. Still, I don't recall having trouble seating in the past with cast bullets like this. These bullets are 1:20 and should easily slide down the case wall. I've annealed the case mouth and down for about 1/2-3/4" to soften the brass, chamfered the case mouth inside and out and seated the bullet on top of the .030" was without any compression of the bullet. That was all done with the die. OAL is 3.204" which puts the case mouth about half way between the top and bottom of the drive band.

[CanoeRoller]

I had a similiar problem when I first stared with my Shiloh Sharps. I am trying to remember what all I was doing differently than I do now. If I recall correctly, I started to seat my boolits jsut a tiny bit deeper into the brass, maybe 1/64 inch or so, and resized my brass about a turn or two more on my reloading die. This was about 20 years ago, and I have not changed the setting in my dies since then, so I am afraid I don't have better details than that.

[ColColt]

I tried seating deeper but that didn't solve the problem. I'm working on things, however, even as we speak. I will overcome.:)

Just an update. I took an old Bell case I had that had been used before and belled the mouth just enough to seat the bullet. It just fell through so, I neck sized it to hold the bullet then belled enough to get the bullet started good. It seated without all the resistance I had with the new Starline brass and in fact, I seated it out .005" further than the others. It dropped right in the chamber with no resistance at all.

Apparently, part of the problem is this new brass after that little experimentation. There's little that can be done about that until fire formed. I still feel the brass is sizing the bullet by .001"...the Starline brass, that is.

[mazo kid]

Are you sizing the Brooks boolits the same as your Postells? If so, I am puzzled as to why the Brooks boolits seat so hard!? But...it seems like that resistance is swelling the boolit enough so it will not chamber.

[country gent]

What is the neck wall thickness of the bell brass compared to the starline?

[ColColt]

mazo-I didn't size the Postells from Buffalo Arms. There's noting wrong with the Brooks mold or the bullets from it. Most likely it's the cases, IMHO. Starline brass, from what I understand, is fairly hard in comparison with other brands so, I've started annealing them and going from t here.


What is the neck wall thickness of the bell brass compared to the starline?

I checked that out earlier and there was little difference. Both were right at .012-.013". I think the Bell brass is probably more ductile since they've been fired probably quite a few times and could have been annealed at some point but, I don't know that. In checking dimensions at the case mouth and just ahead of the extractor groove both were within .001" of each other there as well.

I hate that scraping feel/sound when you run a case through the seating die after expanding but, if I don't flare the case mouth I know it would shave lead.

[country gent]

What dies are you using? Sounds like you dont need much more expansion to be good. My loads are finger seated into the cases. While snug you can still turn the bullet when seated. Depending on die set there are some tricks you can use to slightly enlarge the expander.

[powderburnerr]

did you measure the nose diamater in front of the band on the brooks ? and did you measure the bullet diamater of the brooks?

[ColColt]

I'm using Lyman dies with the M-expander. No way of turning the bullet once seated. The diameter of the Brooks bullet ahead of the drive band is .450". I had Steve make the mold to throw .460" bullets since I didn't know what other rifle it may be used with so I could size .458-.459". That's exactly what it falls from the mold....460". I resize to .459".

[country gent]

Do you know what threads the lyman m die uses at the top. If they will interchange with redding Ill send you a .459 expander I made to use and try. I made a set from .456-.462 in .001 increments when I was working.

[ColColt]

I'm not sure about the threads but imagine they must be pretty much standard as RCBS and the others. That expander plug screws out as it came loose on me and got stuck inside the case. I put it back but with a bit of Loctite Blue. So, I thought they must make different size plugs but couldn't find those on their website. I can't imagine why they'd make screw in plugs if they weren't interchangeable.

I got curious and took the expander out of the die. The bottom up to the middle or so of the expander measures .455" but as you get up close to the part that bells the case there's a small section about .080" long, I guess that's what they call the 2nd step, that measures .460". That should be sufficient to expand these cases and fit properly since my bullets are .459". You wouldn't think there's be any problem as I've described. Of course, .080" is not much-just a bit over 1/16th inch of the case mouth itself. I hate to think about it but maybe I need to just resize the bullets to .458" as Lyman's literature I found indicates that plug is for diameters up to .458" and they show nothing larger for larger diameter bullets. Seating may be easier but I've bought a .459'' sizer for naught. I don't know what folks do that have a .460" groove diameter. Guess they're up a creek.

[sharpsguy]

Your bullet is too big.You will have to size the Brooks bullet down to .458 to get it to work properly in the Shiloh. Shilohs have fairly tight chambers, and are .458 groove to groove. You need to shoot a groove diameter bullet in the Shiloh. The loaded round should be .479 or slightly less at the case mouth, and the nose diameter of the bullet should be .447 or .448 if you intend to shoot black powder. Frankly, it looks like you have screwed the pooch by getting Brooks to make you a weird spec bullet mold that will not load in your rifle. You can size the driving bands down to .458, but the .450 nose is a problem, big time. Good luck.

[ColColt]

The bore diameter, being .450" and the nose diameter measuring that shouldn't be a problem. As for the .458" that's no problem. I have a .458" die from years ago when I shot the 45-70. I'll just drag that out and size to that diameter. I don't know why you think that's a weird spec bullet. Most cast bullets do well sized .001" over groove diameter and this to me was no different.

[country gent]

Most of the diameter of case you are seating is .455 .005 under your bullet dia no wonder your getting scrapping grinding feel. That postotel is probably seating between .500 and .600 deep into case and your opening it up to .460 for the first .080 deep is all leaving .420+ at way to much tension. The expanders I made are straight at dia with a belling section at top. In the trade .002 was a very tight press fit. .005would deform parts and shear metal. While the .080 section allows bullets to seat with out shaving the amount of force to seat the rest is more than the nose can bear.
In my 45-90 ( a C Sharps Hepburn) I load the bullet onto the stack of powder wads lube cookie. Every thing is compressed to give me .200 finished seating depth from case mouth. I then size in a meacham bushing die with .470 bushing. My bore riding paper patched bullets average .4495 when dry. I only size down .250-.300 from mouth. By doing this it allows me to seat the soft lead slug by hand with no distortion. Today I was getting just over 2 mins at 200yds in hazy overcast light. My loaded round is at .470 when finished. with your .460 bullet .012 case walls a bushing .483-.484 dia is right for this technique to work for you.
I have a Brooks mould on order now Paper Patch .441-.442 dia 20-1 alloy adjustable length with a "money" style nose. This is basically the Baco swaged bullet 500 grns. Since Ive shot several hundred of these in my 45-70 and now in the 45-90 I decided to duplicate the bullet not reinvent it. The offer still stands for the .459 expander loan.

[sharpsguy]

Two things--Shilohs have tighter chambers than run of the mill rifles. Load a bullet larger than .458 in your 45-90 case, and the round won't chamber into the Shiloh chamber. The other thing is if you are shooting black powder, you won't be able to chamber a .450 diameter nose bore rider due to fouling after the first shot. You need a bullet that is .458 on the base, and .447-.448 on the nose if you shoot black powder. You're guessing, I'm not. Good luck.

[ColColt]

I don't know why Lyman would make such a small diameter expander. That's small even for a .458" bullet. Yes, I'd like to try the expander and thanks.

[Don McDowell]

Besides the excellent and experienced advice from Sharpsguy, those of you 45-90 shooters in search of decent brass may want to take a look at Jamisons web page, they show they have 45-90 in stock.http://www.captechintl.com/proddetail.php?prod=45-90Win

[montana_charlie]

I have a Brooks mould on order now Paper Patch .441-.442 dia 20-1 alloy adjustable length with a "money" style nose.
Post a picture of a bullet from that mould when you get it.
I ordered a Money-nosed mould from Brooks and he sent me one with his elliptical nose.

Never could get him to stand behind the mistake.

CM

[montana_charlie]

I don't know why Lyman would make such a small diameter expander. That's small even for a .458" bullet. Yes, I'd like to try the expander and thanks.
They make it that size for the shooters who will load with jacketed bullets.
They will make you a bigger expander if you ask ... and pay.

Buffalo Arms has all of the expander sizes you could possibly need for a .45 rifle, and they fit the Lyman dies.
CM

[ColColt]

I feel like I've screwed up by not specifying the nose diameter on this bullet, something I didn't know I needed to do. He knew the brand of rifle I had and the diameter I asked for. I figured the bullet was standard and the only thing that could be changed about it was the as cast diameter, which I specified as .460". I've had such ill luck with Lyman throwing undersized bullets, I wanted that size in case whatever alloy I chose the as cast size would be large enough to size where I wanted it. I guess I'm out $180...live with it or get another made and wait another month.

I'll check BA website but those expanders still won't address the .449-.450" nose diameter I have.

[ColColt]

In retrospect, I may not have the problem I think. I found this thread and after looking at the drawing my bullet is identical to that one with the exception of where they indicate a .449" diameter, mine is .450". Just a tad above that dimension mine also is .447". The only place it's larger is just ahead of the drive band and as stated, it's .450"-not that much difference. All other dimensions in that drawing mimic mine. I have to think with the proper sized expander I'll still be in pretty fair shape.

Look at post #8

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?131232-Postell-Bullet

[powderburnerr]

you can use the bullet ,you may have to seat it a little deeper with black for clearance , but the 458 dia, is about all that will work in the shiloh chamber,pushing a .450 nose into a 450 fouled bore gets pretty tedious,

[cal50]

Anytime I get a new rifle I always determine the max seating depth or where the bullet makes contact with the rifling. Partially size a case or size one and put a slit in the side and chamber the case and bullet, close breech block, open & remove. Measure this for reference. Anything longer you know it will not chamber.
If sized brass does not chamber you know it's the brass, if its loaded and not too long it's likely the brass wall thickness, expanded too much or a combination of things.

Use your compression die to compress the powder to the correct depth for the desired seating depth (including the base wad). Not good to compress using a bullet.

[bigted]

sounds like its time to measure the case mouth of a fired round. flair the mouth just enough to remove any crimp or tight spot in the very outer case mouth and measure the mouth inside for your final boolit diameter.

my Shiloh is a Hartford chambered in 45-120 or 45 3 1/4 inch. it will not chamber any 460 inch boolits...either greesers or patched in the bearing area of the boolit. likewise the leed and beginning of the barrel will not accept a .450 inch nose area after the first shot ... unless I scrub the area affected ... which gets monotonous.

of all my 45's this Hartford is the best shooting but def. the tightest chamber I have ever owned.

when I started to do the above procedure is when I started to find better accuracy with my bp loads. also the nose area that protrudes into the leed area has to be a bit under the bore dia. ... by around .001 to .002 inch or it gets very difficult to chamber in a fouled or heated barrel ... mine anyway.

good luck friend and here is hoping you find the sweet spot for your rifles needs. I know this has made me acquire molds that I prolly wont ever use but the up side is that I now have a bunch to experiment with in dif. rifles.

[ColColt]

I received two expanders from the gracious hands of the country gent and they have made quite a difference in seating my bullets but there is still the problem with the nose. So, admittedly I didn't know anything about that till now and have to chalk it up to ignorance. My only out is have another mold made or try to get maybe Erik to make me a nose sizing die...lessons learned. Also, I'm going to .458" bullets, although I think .459'' could be fine if the nose were smaller. I may have been better off trying the 457132 from Lyman.

[montana_charlie]

I received two expanders from the gracious hands of the country gent and they have made quite a difference in seating my bullets but there is still the problem with the nose. So, admittedly I didn't know anything about that till now and have to chalk it up to ignorance. My only out is have another mold made or try to get maybe Erik to make me a nose sizing die...lessons learned.
Is this problem dealing with bullets from your new Brooks Postell mould?
Was it that same mould that you were asking about in this thread http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?205311-Mold-Retaining-Boolit ?

CM

[ColColt]

Yes to both.

[montana_charlie]

Yes to both.
Have you done any 'carving' on that mould to try to make the bullets drop out?


If you size that Brooks bullet down to .458" it should be 'skinny' enough to chamber in the Shiloh.
Then, there should be some bullet seating depth which allows the cartridge to fully seat without interference in the nose area.

Do you have an impact bullet puller (the hammer type) that will take a 45/90 cartridge with a bullet seated?

CM

[ColColt]

I've currently seated to 3.205"...just shy of being at the bottom of the drive band by maybe .005". Yes, I have an RCBS bullet puller and have seated, pulled bullets from these cartridges.

[montana_charlie]

I've currently seated to 3.205"...just shy of being at the bottom of the drive band by maybe .005". Yes, I have an RCBS bullet puller and have seated, pulled bullets from these cartridges.
Since you are able to get a bullet out of a case ...

Use a boolit that is virgin ... never has been seated. Size it down to .458" (if you can go that small) and seat it so deep in the case that the band on the nose is hidden.

Make sure the empty case chambers freely, then see if it will with the bullet that deep inside it.

If the combination does chamber, start working the bullet out of the case to see how far it can come and still chamber.

If it does not chamber, pull the bullet and try the empty case again.

CM

[ColColt]

I've got every size die but .458". I have one .457" and a .459". From the mold they measure .460" I couldn't locate my .458" so had to order one a few days back. It should be here soon. When it gets here I'll try those recommendations.

[John Boy]

Colt - another issue!:mrgreen: You sure have had a run of them
Measure the ogive - driving band and base diameter for the BACO & Brooks to determine any diameter variance. Then expand the Starline case mouth so the neck tension is 0.001 to 0.002. Finger seat the bullet and be sure to remove any bell on the case.
Then take a magic maker and mark a wide line from the bullet nose down to the case rim. Determine where the magic marker is scrapped. That's your issue

[ColColt]

Nope-That's all part of the whole thing. I've gotten the expansion issue cleared up. Lyman saw fit to undersize their expanders a good deal for cast bullet shooters and I tried a .459 and .461" expander that fixed that little problem. But, then they wouldn't chamber properly seated all the way to the bottom of the drive band so, I seated as shallow as 3.200-205" and most were still lacking about 3/16th from full seating.

I measure the drive band and it's .459" as is the base. I marked from tip to case rim about an eighth inch wide, seated and pushed it in all the way, extracted and there were no marks scrapped. Figure that one.

The problem initially is I haven't shot rifles of any sort since the mid 70's...only pistols. So not only was this a revelation but BPCR was brand new to me. I've had some issues for sure. Oh, I forgot-the ogive or nose is .450".

[montana_charlie]

I measure the drive band and it's .459" as is the base. I marked from tip to case rim about an eighth inch wide, seated and pushed it in all the way, extracted and there were no marks scrapped. Figure that one.
When the bullet is not marked, it usually means that some portion of the 'brass' is too fat to chamber.
It may be the neck where the bullet is, or it could be further down in the body.

If the case chambered freely when it was empty, pull the bullet and try it now.

You might be surprised by what you find.

CM

[ColColt]

Now the bullet won't go back into the case. Looks like it'll need flaring again. The outside of the case mouth measures .480".

OK-I went to step one and resized a new and annealed Starline case full length. Slips right in the chamber. Then I expanded to .461" and slipped in a .459" bullet up to the bottom of the drive band and chambered. I had to push the last eighth inch or so in but it went in without resistance. Pulled it back out and no marks on the magic marker. OAL was 3.198".

[montana_charlie]

I expanded to .461" and slipped in a .459" bullet up to the bottom of the drive band and chambered. I had to push the last eighth inch or so in but it went in without resistance. Pulled it back out and no marks on the magic marker. OAL was 3.198".
Was the bullet still at the same depth you seated it to before chambering ... or had it been pushed in some more?

CM

[ColColt]

Pushed in a bit more. The mouth of the case was right about in the middle of the drive band when I measured the 3.198".

[montana_charlie]

Okay, now you have a seating depth that works in a clean throat.
You also have a bullet diameter that works in your chamber.

You should be over the hump ... and able to proceed on your own from here.

CM

[ColColt]

Hopefully, yes. I'm going to take it out for the first time tomorrow and see how things go. I have about five different loads, nothing was changed but the powder charge which was from 75-79 gr 2Fg Goex....five of each. I figured 20 rounds from this one will be all I can take. Thanks for everyone's patience.

[John Boy]

Thanks for everyone's patience. Until the next issue!
Colt, for this episode, never heard if you removed the bell which was probably scraping chamber wall and precluding the round from seating

[ColColt]

Sure did, John. I think I measured the mouth at .480".

[John Boy]

Glad to hear it Colt. Shiloh's don't have such a tight chamber. Otherwise the folks on Shiloh Forum would be complaining and the mold vendors would also.
It's interesting, I shoot Pedersoli's in 70 & 90. The only time I can't chamber a reload is when I have the COL to long and I shoot bullets that are 482 as cast. Oh Well!

[ColColt]

It's probably all due to my ignorance. I haven't shot rifles in over 20 years and never a BPCR. Well, take that back. I did have a Navy Arms Rem. Rolling Block in 45-70 but that was back in the 70's. I cast the Lyman 405 gr bullet for it then but knew nothing about compressing powder and had never heard of a compression die so, I just filled the case up probably within a quarter inch or so from the top and used the bullet to compress. Back then I cast mostly with 50/50 lead and Linotype so, hard bullet. No one I knew shot rifles like that then so I couldn't ask questions. Most were into the 300 Weatherby or 7mm Rem. Mag...those sort of rifles.

But, tomorrow I get to try' er out at the range. I'll know more about it all then and what I need to do or not do.

[montana_charlie]

But, tomorrow I get to try' er out at the range. I'll know more about it all then and what I need to do or not do.
Just so you have the numbers later ...
Make note of your case length before firing, and how long they are after being fired.
After two or three rounds fired, check your barrel in the front-end-of-the-chamber area to see if any leading is tryuing to accumulate.

CM

[ColColt]

I just got back. I had measured twenty cases befor reloading that ran between 2.395-2.397" and they didn't seem to either grow or shrink after firing. There was no leading and the lube star at the muzzle was checked after the first five rounds. I used a blow tube, blowed three times after each firing and two wet patches followed by one dry between each five as that's how my tests were run. I had five each of 75, 77, 78 and 79 grains. I never got to the 79 gr loads as my shoulder was killing me. Fifteen was about all I could stand and that became more difficult with each pull of the trigger but, I remained determined. That Pact Pad is not worth a ****. It did no good at all. The military steel butt is a killer and I'm going to have to try and come up with a solution to that. I've fired 378 Weatherbys and 458 Winchesters before and didn't find them any worse than this. Maybe I'm just a mite more skinny than I use to be. My shoulder is swollen and I'm sure will be blue tomorrow. My friend that went me who weighs about a solid 275 even commented after firing two how he had had enough.

I got on paper the first attempt but had to do a little adjusting from 50 where I started to 100 yards. I raised the vernier 10 inches and got into the black first shot but off a bit with the windage. Finally after awhile 100 yard zero was possible but I wasn't too pleased with the 3x2 1/2" groups. I'll have to work on that. Perhaps it was me anticipating the pain. Still, it was good to finally get to try the loads out and after 15 of those rounds and going to the 38-55 Winchester it felt like a .22.

[Don McDowell]

When you were shooting that thing, were you hunched over it like a monkey having an love affair with a football, or were you in a more upright position so your upper body was able to roll with the recoil?
The loads you were shooting are barely over 45-70 loads and given proper shooting form should have in noway bothered your shoulder so bad.

[ColColt]

When you were shooting that thing, were you hunched over it like a monkey having an love affair with a football...

You pretty much nailed it. Sort of like peeking through a keyhole. Don, it's been decades since I've fired a rifle from the bench and I'm the skinniest I've been since high school having lost 45 pounds. I don't have the meat on me, shoulders in this case, I had five years ago but can tell you that rifle today was the heaviest recoiling rifle I've shot to date. I have a purple area on my shoulder/arm and it's swollen tonight. I don't know how the hell guys shoot the 50-90.

The drop at heel on that rifle in conjunction with the crescent shape steel butt plate is murder on your shoulder. I guess I'll have to look for some sort of slip on recoil pad to fit...sure wished it had been a shotgun butt but I didn't have any choice. It was buy it as is or else.

[Don McDowell]

All you have to do is get into an upright position to shoot that rifle like it was designed to be shot. That military butt works fine for everything except prone, then is when a slip on pad is very handy.

[ColColt]

About 95% of the people I've seen shoot from the bench did the same way I did yesterday. You're sitting down you have to bend over a little to get behind the rifle and sights. Obviously, that military butt plate doesn't work so well with me. That's a lot of thrust from a 45-90. I've never had any rifle leave me with bruises like this one has. I have a knot on my arm and it's most sore this morning. Would you continue to fire a rifle that does this sort of thing?

Sitting from a bench there's only one way you can fire a rifle and that's bent over it. I did nothing any different than anyone else. The only difference is I'm on three blood thinners...aspirin, Plavix and Warfarin and I bruise easily. I'm either going to have to get this rifle rebarreled or take it to the LGS and have it put on consignment. I'm just not into pain.

[Gunlaker]

ColColt, forgive me for the silly question, but is there any chance that you weren't pulling the rifle tightly into your shoulder? I have an original 1885 in .45-70 with a crescent butt plate and my loads are similar to yours and I get no bruising. Mind you I'm not on blood thinners. One advantage I have is that I'm not a big guy. About 5'9" and 175lbs. The recoil pushes my whole body rather than compress the meat in my shoulder so maybe that helps me.

Before you sell that thing you ought to give one of the Shooters Friend slip on pads a try. Those things are thick and soft.

Chris.

[Don McDowell]

Colcolt it don't make a hill of beans what the other shooters were doing, none of them were shooting a sharps rifle with the military butt now were they?
If you want to keep whining about being bruised and battered you keep using a shooting form intended for rifles other than the one you have. You want to keep pace with the old women and kids shooting rifles like yours 50-60 rounds a day in competition, you'll get your self elevated to a proper shooting position for the rifle you have, pull the stock in tight to your shoulder and have a pain free good time.

[Char-Gar]

Col. Colt... In Texas, when it comes to firearms and handloading, we would say you are "snake bit". Were I you, I think I would sell my guns and take up golf, tennis, bridge or something with less moving parts.

[MikeT]

The military butt plate was never designed to shoot prone or 'semi-prone' off of a bench, as you did. You will need to get the front bag elevated about a foot [depending on the height of the bench], so you can sit upright behind the rifle [just like if you were shooting standing]. My crescent butt plate rifles all are shot from the arm, not the shoulder. The purpose of the curved butt plate is to fit your arm.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[CanoeRoller]

You can buy yourself a nice shoulder pad - no shame in using one, I always have one on my shoulder. The one sold by Buffalo Arms is very good, and will tame the recoil from any position you choose to use.

You could just tough it out. You can always spot the fellows who do not use a shoulder pad. They have a war cry they make every time they pull the trigger. They sound like they are stepping on a goose.:mrgreen:

[ColColt]

I've done some research and have come up with two solutions...make that three. The first is to get up higher on the bench as some recommended, secondly I've ordered a LimbSaver that will come in handy with two rifles and lastly, the infamous Lead Sled. I'm prone to think it will do fine if it works as advertised. I don't like the idea of having to do that but if it saves my shoulder....

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/401375_L1_003_zps9f77c4e6.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/401375_L1_003_zps9f77c4e6.jpg.html)

Some have made unnecessary comments about this but, I can live with that...I just ignore it. This rifle is NOT going to beat me. I will prevail one way or the other. It's been a week today since I last shot it and I'm healing up pretty good. I'm not as sore or purple as I was, mostly yellow with purple mixed in. In case there's any doubt as to why I was "whinning" I think this pretty well sums it up. When steel meets bony shoulder something has to give. It was me.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Wounds/_DEF4177m_zps5344dba8.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Wounds/_DEF4177m_zps5344dba8.jpg.html)

[hickstick_10]

Man oh man does that picture take me back when I started with the shiloh, I wasnt as battered as you but close. Same problem as you I was shooting way to hunched over, if get the gun UP to your eye level and dont hunch down to it as Don Mcdowell says, and you will see a huge improvement.

These rifles have a learning curve to them, there is no quick and easy solution unless you have someone sit down with you and show you EVERYTHING, so be ready to be bit and potentially frustrated occasionaly. They can be made to shoot accurate and comfortable, but it takes time. Try another posture for shooting, because the one you used is wrong and if every military butt sharps did that to every man who pulled the trigger, they wouldn't have sold many.

If you look at shooting a sharps as a contest to see if you can "beat" it, you will be disapointed. Your loads are very mild and its still biting you, you wont beat it and it will only get worse when you try a full throttle load.

A bag of rice to set on top of the bench is the quickest/cheapest solution to getting the gun up higher, doesnt HAVE to be rice but the burlap sack it comes in is pretty near ideal for a "bigger bag". You dont need a lead sled.

Remember, somehow someway, men likely of much slighter build then yourself managed to shoot these guns in competition, with no chiropracters, lead sleds, anti inflamitories or pain killers besides whisky, opiates or cocaine. They shot some pretty good scores.

Come to think of it...........maybe that WAS the secret?!?!?!?!:shock: Maybe the more historicaly accurate crowd can comment on this?

[Bent Ramrod]

Yeouch!!

With all due respect, Colcolt, the butt of the rifle should contact your shoulder with the top at a point below your collarbone and inboard of your arm joint, rather than against your upper arm. Where you appear to have had it placed is great for a Kentucky flintlock with a crescent buttplate, but not for a large caliber BPCR, even with the military buttplate. Best wishes for a quick healing up.

A friend of mine did so much BPCR shooting that he developed rotator cuff problems that took over a year to heal. He got a Caldwell Lead Sled for all his ammo testing and sight setting and he does very well with it. He doesn't touch the stock with his cheek, lets the sled do all the holding and recoil takeup and gets very good groups at 600 yards.

After observing his success, I got one also, but it doesn't work as well for me as a front rest and rear bag. Even with a couple bags of shot in the tray I find the Caldwell bounces and slides around the bench and I have a hard time repositioning it accurately. The point of impact for me is different than what I get with the same sight setting off cross sticks, whereas he gets the same POI with his Caldwell as when he is shooting a match. My friend can't understand why I have so much trouble with mine, and I can't figure out how he gets his to work so well. They're the same older model, not as elaborate as the newer one you have pictured.

He shoots his matches with the thickest shoulder pad he can get from Buffalo Arms; says they're better protection than any other brand.

[John Boy]

Well, we have come full cycle on this thread - it doesn't - I can't - it won't and now 60 posts later with all your 45-90 issues ... it hurts shooting 15 reloads! Take Char-Gar's advice.


When steel meets bony shoulder something has to give. It was me.Colt, from your picture - that rifle was never up against your shoulder. You got some serious learning on how to hold a long arm.

[country gent]

ColColt take the good advice here go slow and document your set ups bench positions and everything skethes are a big help also. Take notes on everything. Maintain a upright position and work up to everything. Do testing at the kictchen table to get an Idea of whats going on before going to the range with live ammo.Keep the rifle "high" to maintain an erect back and head position. firmly pull the rifle straight back into your shoulder. Relax and roll with the rifle. Start with light loads and work up as your position set up improves. If every inexperienced shooter gave up the sport would have died long ago.

[hickstick_10]

Here ya go!!!! Curved butt plate be danged.

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT_1roZgZ-mEjFWNNsqJReGmrQC51RrVtGB7xe6_tfruRsTSIg9uw

I dont know whats harder about this shooting, not plinking your toes or keeping the top hat in place.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-6XEG72ZIm_A/T1hdKkZ_lMI/AAAAAAAAA24/4YhQAuR_e60/s1600/back2.JPG

[CanoeRoller]

Col Colt, I am happy to hear you are sticking with the Sharps. The old Buffalo cartridges can beat you to a pulp, or you can learn to deal with them.

I recently shot several rounds with my cousin, a retired Gunny, not much in firearms will surprise him, but the first round he touched off with BP in my Sharps left him open mouthed. I don't think he wanted to admit that he was shocked by the recoil, more to himself than anything, he said, "What was a battlefield like.......?"

[ColColt]

The butt of that rifle was right up against my shoulder. The bruises spread to other areas maybe making it seem otherwise but the blood thinners is what caused it to spread. The knot that developed was not on my arm but on the shoulder area.

JB-If you'll look at page 12 in Mike Venturino's book on Buffalo Rifles of the Old West you'll see him hunched over that rifle in the same position I took. I was no lower on that rifle than he is in that photo. My front stand is just like that one and notice how low the butt is to this shoulder. I didn't shoot any different. Apparently there are others that have experienced similar problems as myself from some of the posts.

Nevertheless, next time I'm going to increase the height of the front rest and back bag. I'll try the LimbSaver first. a Shotgun butt would have been better and may have not caused the problem I had but, I have to deal with what I've got. I'd never buy another rifle with a curved military type butt plate unless it was a 38-55.

[fouronesix]

The rat poison you're on could sure account for that amount of bruising. Actually the military style or carbine style butt plate is not too much different from the shotgun butt. Only the metal edges are a little more abrupt. It's the crescent rifle butt that IS much different than either. Given the amount of bruising along with the thinners I would imagine even a shotgun butt would have done about the same. You need to broaden the "recoil footprint" of where the butt meets the shoulder along with some sort of absorbing material. I posted earlier the best I've found that allows more or less unencumbered shooting is a THIN pad of Sorbothane (or similar space age polymer) with thinnish but STIFF leather. The strap-on-the-shoulder rigs like the Past or a butt pad attached to the rifle both can work. The THICK, SOFT butt pads can make it worse. While shooting from the bench a THIN sand or shot bag manually placed between the butt and shoulder just before each shot will help as much as any. It's just a little cumbersome to do- especially for any position other than off the bench and will lengthen length of pull and/or alter sight picture or cheek weld. If the reasonable solutions, as suggested by many, don't work- two options. 1) get a lighter recoiling caliber/gun. 2) use something like a lead sled.

[montana_charlie]

If I remember correctly, you were wearing a PAST shoulder pad when you got that bruising.
You said the pad didn't help at all.

I have a PAST pad which absorbs ALL of the 'smack' ... only leaving me with the rearward motion.
I have a thinner/softer pad that I like better.

I occasionally shoot with no pad at all, but not very many rounds ... like maybe less than fifteen.
But that isn't terribly uncomfortable unless I let the steel buttplate 'clip' my collarbone.
As long as the butt stays in the 'pocket' between collarbone and shoulder point ... everything works okay.

If I plan on going much over ten rounds, I will put on a pad before starting.

Judging from your bruising, I don't think you were 'in the pocket' as I don't see anything in that spot.

CM

[John Boy]

JB-If you'll look at page 12 in Mike Venturino's book on Buffalo Rifles of the Old West you'll see him hunched over that rifle in the same position I took.Colt, maybe what you should do is send Mike a PM with a copy of your battle wounded body. Tell him you read his book, noted his shooting posture, copied it and the picture is the end result after 15 rounds. Here's his Shiloh forum PM link ...
http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=310

On an average year, I shoot 1000 to 1500 BPCR reloads. I weigh 164 lbs and am 5'7" with diabetes, accordingly I bruise easily. I go to Ridgway R&PC 2 to 3 times a year with 8 to 10 rifles up to 50-70 and 600 -700 reloads. Every day for a week from about 9AM to 4:00'ish, I shoot off sticks and bench rest. My 45-70 HiWall has the worst felt recoil. At the end of a shooting week, my shoulder knows I've been shooting every day ... but there is not one black & blue mark on it. Add weekly 5 round trap matches - 2x CASS matches per month shooting 3 dram square BP loads of shot shells. From August to Dec is crow season. On a good day, a case of shot shells will be expended. And from October to March I duck & goose hunt shooting 1 1/4oz hi brass. Add up all the times a long arm is up against my shoulder and nary a black/blue mark is evidence the rifles & shotguns are placed properly to my shoulder.

BTW - I do not using any pads, shooting jackets and many times I'm shooting in a short sleeve shirt

[ColColt]

You're a real hoot, John and I'm happy for you that you can do all that and not bruise. I apparently can't. Maybe it's the age plus the blood thinners, I don't know. All I know is I've never had this problem to date. I'll bet that wouldn't have happened had I been standing. I've obviously done something wrong from the bench although I did have it against my shoulder of course. Where else would I have the butt of a rifle...under my arm? Before shooting I put on the Past pad. Perhaps the shape of the butt was in part the fault and I didn't have it all tight enough against the shoulder and left the bottom part not touching anywhere enough. I'm just speculating after the fact. I'll learn to do it better or correctly.

I use to have a .222 I could shoot all day from the bench and perchance thought I could do this one the same. I got fooled. You have to admit the butt of those rifles in that configuration are pretty skinny or think and was steel as well. I don' t think with a shotgun style butt it would have done that. So, I'll turn it into one by the addition of the LimbSaver.

Charlie-That "pocket" is where I got the knot so, it was getting a good pounding.

[fouronesix]

I don't know what real difference there is between the steel butt plate (military or carbine design) vs the hard rubber (plastic) shotgun butt plate. I find the steel plate is similar to the shotgun butt in felt recoil effects. After all, you have been shooting with a shirt and Past pad. Oh well, you'll find out what works and what doesn't for you. Oh also, that's quite a leap thinking or comparing a 222 to a 45-90.??

[Don McDowell]

I don't use a slip on pad unless I'm shooting from prone, and then the only difference I can tell between my military butt rifles and the shotgun butt is how much higher I have to stretch my neck to get a good sight picture at distances beyond 600 yds with the military butt guns.
Shooting a match that calls for sitting only or off hand I defer from any of the addon recoil protection as I don't think you have as consistant of gun placement on your shoulder and cheek weld as you do with out them. And it seems as tho there's a good bit more "wiggle" in the sights when using the Past or the shooters friend .

[ColColt]

I think I've figured out the problem. I set up my front and rear stands/bag on the work bench just like I had them at the range and sat down on a stool and got over the rifle to cradle it just like at the range. I paid particular attention to where the butt was and noticed the heel was much lower than it should have been putting only about a couple inches of it right in contact with the shoulder with the rest of that curved butt against the chest/bicep area. It should have been up much higher but due to the small rabbit ear type rear bag I couldn't squeeze it enough to get more height. I had noting at the range to get more height so I used it as is. My opinion is that I shot it all wrong. The front sight stand should have been up loser to about 12" and the rear up high enough so I wouldn't have had to position the butt as I did.

In short, I had only about 2 inches at best nestled against the lower part of the shoulder which was taking the brunt of the recoil impact and got a pounding by the steel butt which wasn't in full heel to toe contact with my shoulder. Well, lessons learned.

[Don McDowell]

You may want to either invest in or build you a set of bench rest crossticks. So that you can get the gun elevated off the top of the bench enough that you can get a proper grip and fit on the rifle.

[ColColt]

I couldn't locate the rests I use to use years ago so bought another front rest. It only goes up to about 8 inches, however, and apparently wasn't high enough.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/840428_zpsb830cdb9.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/840428_zpsb830cdb9.jpg.html)

[montana_charlie]

I couldn't locate the rests I use to use years ago so bought another front rest. It only goes up to about 8 inches, however, and apparently wasn't high enough.
I use that same rest, but I shim it up higher with a pair of two-by-six slabs laid side by side.
That way I don't have to screw the shaft way up in the base to get the height I want.

CM

[ColColt]

I checked Cat's Shooting Supplies and they have a bench type cross sticks made from oak that adjust to 16" high and may be just the ticket, although not too cheap. Several choices but, I'll try also adding some height to the Remington front rest and see how that goes along with maybe a couple 25 pound shot bags in case I want to test the Lead Sled. Thanks for the suggestions.

[John Boy]

Colt - no issues & no pain shooting 1000yds all day long ... ALL WEEK LONG:
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2917.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2917.jpg.html)
http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd220/Meadowmucker/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2901.jpg (http://s222.photobucket.com/user/Meadowmucker/media/Ridgeway%20Oct%202007/PDRM2901.jpg.html)

[ColColt]

That's a nice range. I looked at some of the other pics. Is that the size buffalo at 1000 yards? That looks like a Browning BPCR. Didn't know you were a pipe smoker. I have about ten myself with the favorite being a Petersen Sherlock Professor or one of my Nording's full of Autumn Evening or Hafling's Leaf.