1911 going into battery issue - still.

[mistermog]

Ok, so I posted a while ago about my rock island 1911 not going into battery after a mag or two.

I am using a LEE mold truncated cone loading to about 1.17" (basically the case mouth is at the shoulder on the boolit.)

The problem is that after a few shots I get rounds that don't go into battery fully. I can push on the slide sometimes and it clicks in, sometimes its really tough.

Pulling that round out and looking at it shows a blob of gooey stuff around the case mouth. It looks like lube. (White lable 2500+ I think).

My theory is that I am loading these rounds too short, and the lube is getting deposited back into the chamber when I fire and causing a build up.

Is that even possible? I know it headspaces on the case mouth so it would SEEM that it shouldn't happen, but I don't know.

Curious for some opinions.

[44Vaquero]

Lets see some pics of your loaded rounds? My thought would be clean your seating stem/crimp die, leaving lube and lead around the case mouth will have the effect you describe.

[tomme boy]

What did you crimp them at?

[Fluxed]

I don't think your idea is the answer.
Show a picture of a loaded round and give it's dimensions.
I suspect its the dimension of the front of the loaded round - are you taper crimping? If so, what is the dimension of the loaded round at the case mouth?

[Firebricker]

If your rounds are all the same and the first few function fine sounds like you just need to wipe the finished rounds down to prevent lube build up. When you get a batch of reloads use your barrel as a case gauge and make sure they will chamber clean off extra lube and try to run a couple magazines through. If you still have issues I'd run a couple mags of factory rounds to make sure it's an ammo issue and not the gun. FB

[KYCaster]

Light load? Fired cases dirty????

Need more info.

Jerry

[Mk42gunner]

Does the gun run okay with any other load?

What is the boolit diameter? How hard are you crimping, and what type of crimp?

Robert

[mistermog]

Taper crimp sized to .452, I wiped them off and probably chambered 300 of them (without the firing pin) back last November when I was fiddling with this issue. Now when I go to fire them I get through 1 mag and then start getting hiccups.

I don't have my calipers handy at the moment but its a moderately light taper crimp and seat in the same die. I also tried running them through as seating only and then the LEE factory crimp die, no change.

[nhrifle]

If it runs well with factory ammo, I would look at one of your assembled rounds. Make sure your boolits aren't causing the case to expand to being tight in the chamber. Also, look at your crimp, making sure that you are crimping enough to remove the flare but not so much that you cause a bulge in the case mouth. Perhaps you are running a powder that burns very dirty and is sooting up the chamber? Even though it is not difinitive, the plunk test can tell you alot. Make sure a loaded round will drop freely into your chamber and "plunk" against the chamber mouth.

[cwheel]

Here is a simple test you can do. Field strip the pistol and remove the barrel. Take a loaded round and drop into the chamber. If the back of the case is just even with the end of the barrel hood, proper headspace, you are good to go. If it doesn't go in that far, you are having a problem with the shoulder of the boolit running into the headspace cut in the barrel. When the slide comes forward, strips off a fresh round from the mag, the slide closing on the round hammers the lead into the head space shoulder to close the action. The lead deposited from this builds up after a few mags full of ammo. I've had this happen with 2 Lee molds so far with the boolit seated to the recommended OAL for the round. The cure is a " throating reamer ". The lee semi wad cutters never functioned 100% in any of the 5 1911's I have. They did work well in a S&W model 645 though. The S&W came throated from the factory. My last run of 45 acp's , I went back to round nose, they feed much better.
Chris

[RobS]

In the bullet lube is there also lead shaving there at the end of the chamber. I have seen some 45 autos with really sharp/short throats and a lead boolit will scrape a bit off each round and build up a the end of the chamber until a round won't chamber. It could also be a light load with slower powder combined with the lube gumming up the end of the chamber.

[Dennis Eugene]

I'm betting it's lube build up in the barrel. Pull your barrel take a tooth pick see if you can scrape any built up lube from the shoulder inside the barrel that the round head spaces on, I bet you can and will. Once it starts to build up the round will not chamber enough to allow gun to go to battery. I bet ya a buck. All you need to do is make sure the lube is cleaned off the outside of the loaded rounds or that you don't get any on the outside while seating the boolit into the brass. Dennis

[MtGun44]

More TC and/or seat deeper.

Bill

[tomme boy]

Measure the round right at the edge of the brass. You need about 0.471"-0.472" max. No tighter than 0.470"

[jonp]

Taper crimp sized to .452, I wiped them off and probably chambered 300 of them (without the firing pin) back last November when I was fiddling with this issue. Now when I go to fire them I get through 1 mag and then start getting hiccups.

I don't have my calipers handy at the moment but its a moderately light taper crimp and seat in the same die. I also tried running them through as seating only and then the LEE factory crimp die, no change.
Sounds to me like your getting boolit set back from not crimping tight enough. Did you re-measure the first boolit that failed to chamber? I might try crimping a little harder.
If that dosn't work I would give up and sell me your gun ;)

[375RUGER]

Make sure you are not shaving lead off at the throat. Some chamber reamers cut a razor sharp throat transition, if the chamber is cut to minimum depth it only takes a little lead to keep it from going into battery completely.
IMO, after a magazine or two run through the barrel things will be warm enough to make lube very very soft and it shouldn't be able to do what you describe.

[mistermog]

I am using win231, and the plunk test passes flying colors. Its only when it fires that the problems creep up.

It -is- a mixture of lube and a tiny bit of lead it looks like. I can't seat deeper because the case mouth is right at the shoulder of the cone. Measuring the case mouth on a crimped bullet comes out .471-.472.

[historicfirearms]

In the bullet lube is there also lead shaving there at the end of the chamber. I have seen some 45 autos with really sharp/short throats and a lead boolit will scrape a bit off each round and build up a the end of the chamber until a round won't chamber. It could also be a light load with slower powder combined with the lube gumming up the end of the chamber.

I had a rock island that had this same problem. I fired 500 jwarts through it and it helped smooth things out some. It would still scrape lead but I could get about 50 rounds through it before it started acting up again. After 1000 rounds the frame and slide were getting loose. I tightened up the fit and lapped them together. That was the softest metal I've seen on a slide and frame rails. The pistol was soon traded off.

[243winxb]

1. Bell the case slightly more.

2. Chamfer the inside case mouth.

3. Seat & crimp in two different dies.
4. Size the boolits to .451"

[375RUGER]

I am using win231, and the plunk test passes flying colors. Its only when it fires that the problems creep up.

It -is- a mixture of lube and a tiny bit of lead it looks like. I can't seat deeper because the case mouth is right at the shoulder of the cone. Measuring the case mouth on a crimped bullet comes out .471-.472.

What is your powder charge?


I had a rock island that had this same problem. I fired 500 jwarts through it and it helped smooth things out some. It would still scrape lead but I could get about 50 rounds through it before it started acting up again. After 1000 rounds the frame and slide were getting loose. I tightened up the fit and lapped them together. That was the softest metal I've seen on a slide and frame rails. The pistol was soon traded off.

Wife has an Auto-Ordnance, SS, I've already replaced the hammer, sear, and recoil spring. much less than 1000 through it. I just hope the slide and frame are not as soft. I've been looking around for a better quality commander size for her to carry. It's shameful the substandard parts that some firearms producers are using nowadays.

[jonp]

Are you mixing your brass up when re-loading? Some brass is thicker than others and I find that loading each headstamp and resetting my dies for each will help a great deal.

[RobS]

I had a rock island that had this same problem. I fired 500 jwarts through it and it helped smooth things out some. It would still scrape lead but I could get about 50 rounds through it before it started acting up again. ff.

There are quite a few auto barrels that have short/sharp throats. I have fixed a few now by using an 11 degree lap and 220/320 grit lapping compound. This opens up, lengthens and smooths the throat enough to not have the lead scrapping issues.

[mistermog]

Yes I mix the brass up, its just for plinking really. Im running 4.75gr of 231 at 1.17" OAL.

I don't remember if Im seating and crimping at the same time on this set or not. I have the LEE FCD die which I was using but on this batch of ammo I think I tried seating and crimping at the same time.

still experimenting but that's my next goal... try to get a taper crimp die and see what that does, and an M&P 45 to play with to see if that does anything. :)

[jonp]

Yes I mix the brass up, its just for plinking really. Im running 4.75gr of 231 at 1.17" OAL.

I don't remember if Im seating and crimping at the same time on this set or not. I have the LEE FCD die which I was using but on this batch of ammo I think I tried seating and crimping at the same time.

still experimenting but that's my next goal... try to get a taper crimp die and see what that does, and an M&P 45 to play with to see if that does anything. :)
Before you buy a separate crimp die try backing your crimp/seating die out and using it to seat to 1.17 then back out the stem and screw it down until it hits the case. Turn 1/8 a turn and try the plunk test and keep doing this to see if you have any luck.

[mistermog]

Yep I did that... no problem with the plunk test either way.

Ill just try a few different things next time I make 45.

I got another thing to occupy my time, I found an old Kommer model 4 in a pawn shop today that I grabbed so the rock island will take a back seat for another few months hehe.

[Centaur 1]

Mistermog,

I have the same RIA 1911 and Lee 230gr tc mold, I use Lee dies, I seat to the same depth and use 5 grains of HP-38(same as 231). I had a similar problem when I first bought the gun so maybe I can help. The first problem I found was with the Lee expander die. The opening in the die body isn't large enough to allow a properly flared case to be removed. When I set the expander plug to give the required amount of flare, the mouth of the die would catch on the case as it is being withdrawn from the die. No matter how much you expand the case, the brass would just go right back down to the same size. Instead I use a Lee universal case expanding die to put a descent flare on the case. When I set up the seating/crimp die I take my time and I carefully follow a setup procedure that works for me. I first make a dummy round without a primer or powder, after you get setup save the dummy round to help setup in the future. Unless you trim your 45 brass(not many people do this when making plinking ammo), rummage through your brass and look for one that has one of the shorter case lengths. If you set the expander to give an adequate flare on a short case, then you grab a case that's longer, you wind up with an slightly oversized flare. Which beats the hell out of an undersized flare. I have a separate cheap Lee C frame $30 press that I use for case expanding and bullet sizing. Once that's set I run all my brass through the universal expander. Now you're ready to set up the seating/crimping die.

Step 1. Back off the body of the die so the crimp portion of the die can not come in contact with the case mouth.

Step 2. Adjust the bullet seating plug a little at a time until you seat the bullet to your overall length of 1.17". Once the proper C.O.L. is reached, back the screw out so it no longer touches the bullet.

Step 3. Lower the press handle all the way down and hold it there.

Step 4. Loosen the locknut and screw the crimp die in until you feel contact between the crimp die and the case mouth,( be careful that the seating stem never touches the bullet, if needed just keep backing out this stem).

Step 5. Gradually adjust the die in small stages, like 1/8 turn at a time. After every adjustment run the case into the die, then measure the case mouth. You will gradually see the diameter of the brass decrease with every adjustment. Keep adjusting until the case diameter reaches .471"/.472". STOP Adjusting, that is where you need to be and no more. This is where a lot of mistakes are made, and guys can't figure out what's wrong because their measurements are close to where they need to be. Because of the bullet inside the case, you would have to make a large adjustment before you'll notice a difference in case diameter, or have the taper crimp turn into a roll crimp.

Step 6. Almost there. As you stand right now, you have a dummy round with a bullet seated to the proper depth and you also have a perfect textbook example of a taper crimp. Again lower the press handle, raising the cartridge into the seating/crimping die. Now remember when you backed out the seating stem while adjusting the crimp die? Well it's time to readjust it. Since the dummy round you made has an overall length of 1.17", with the cartridge fully raised, rotate the seating stem until it makes firm contact with the bullet.

Now you have a die that's properly adjusted for crimp and overall length. Give this a try and let me know if it works. If it doesn't work, send me a pm with your contact info. I'm just up in Titusville, we could always get together and work it out.

Good Luck......Mike

[jonp]

You said it didnt go into battery "after a couple of mags". Is it doing it with the same mag all of the time or all of your magazines?

[mistermog]

Its random with the same mag. I only have 1 :)

Centaur, I don't think that's the case with mine as when I was setting it I expanded it oversized so that the boolit just kinda fell into the case :)

[jonp]

Its random with the same mag. I only have 1 :)

Centaur, I don't think that's the case with mine as when I was setting it I expanded it oversized so that the boolit just kinda fell into the case :)

Might be the mag. You probably should buy another one and test with it or if you have a friend with the same gun as you borrow his/hers and try it

[Centaur 1]

You said that you're getting bits of lead and lube at the case mouth. That is caused when the die starts crimping before the bullet is seated. It doesn't matter how large the flare is if the die is set to crimp before the bullet is seated. You might just have to seat and crimp in two separate steps. Adjusting the crimp die like I explained will give you the best shot at not having to do it in two steps.

[mistermog]

Yep that's my theory too... Crimping and seating in separate steps. I have 2 dies to do that but I got the lee FCD after I had these made already.

[CJR]

A suggestion. Buy a loaded cartridge gauge, from Dillon or others, and check EVERY round that you reload. These gauges cost about $10 and detect the following:

1. Loaded case diameter with bullet size you're using.
2. OAL
3. Rim size. Brass shot many times will have some case rims grow in diameter from numerous hits from the recoil surface in the slide. Larger rim diameters increase extractor tension and will slow round going into battery. Filing rims to proper diameter will allow cartridge to fully enter gauge and improve going into battery operation.
4. Split cases, which are larger in diameter, that you missed during case inspection. Split cases will prevent going into full battery.

If you still have problems after gauging your loaded rounds, then most likely your piece needs to be checked.

Best regards,

CJR

[Dennis Eugene]

Lots of good advice here, intresting to me just to follow this thread.
Dennis

[KYCaster]

Yes I mix the brass up, its just for plinking really. Im running 4.75gr of 231 at 1.17" OAL.

I don't remember if Im seating and crimping at the same time on this set or not. I have the LEE FCD die which I was using but on this batch of ammo I think I tried seating and crimping at the same time.

still experimenting but that's my next goal... try to get a taper crimp die and see what that does, and an M&P 45 to play with to see if that does anything. :)



Well, there ya go!

There's no way to avoid shaving lead when you seat and taper crimp in one operation, and that loose lead on the case mouth WILL BE deposited in the chamber.

Do yourself a favor and correct the basic problem before you start using that Lee FCD. I think you'll find the FCD isn't needed.

Jerry

[mistermog]

ill be using the FCD as a crimp step, and only seating with the other one

[GT27]

The 1911 in its factory configuration is designed to use RN boolits,some will "run" with anything you feed them, some wont!Call Arnel Bernardo (Master 1911 gunsmith) at RIA and explain the situation,I had the same problem with a mid-size RIA sent it back to him,he throated and polished the feed ramp to a mirror shine,now it gobbles up anything I feed it.He (Arnel) is one of the best, if not the best 1911 gunsmiths from Vegas to Cali! Good-Luck! GT27

[DougGuy]

OP you said it passes the plunk test fine with ammo you load, have you tried field stripping it to remove the barrel and trying the plunk test at the range when it develops the hiccups?

It seems to me that if it plunks fine at home on the bench, somehow some lead is getting cut from the sides of the boolits and deposited on the tapered part of the barrel just in front of where the case headspaces, and stops it from locking up fully. It may be that they just didn't do that smooth of a job in the transition from chamber/rifling and it causes lead to get stuck there.

All this advice on crimping is good, but if it's shaving lead at the rifling, no amount of prepping the case/crimping will solve the buildup problem.

For what it's worth, I don't use the FCD these days, all that does is swage down the boolit in the case. I use the seating die adjusted just to where it will remove the bell from the case mouth when it seats the boolit, then I use the taper crimp die in the next station to do the taper crimp and it works very well. Interestingly enough, you can run a loaded round through the FCD, then pull and mic the boolit afterwards, you may find it severely undersized as that's what the FCD seems to excel at.

Are your boolits .451" or .452" sized? I have a Kahr at the moment that simply will not plunk any boolit larger than .451" but it is a surprisingly accurate little pistol so I will let it have it's fussy ways..

[mistermog]

Yep passes plunk test until it gets dirty. It fails the plunk test afterwards. It doesn't have a problem with the feed ramp area, just the last say... .005 of an inch in the chamber.

[DougGuy]

Hmm.. Ok, when it gets fouled, will it still plunk a fired case? If it will that means the fouling is not where the case headspaces on the end of the chamber, but just in front of it. If it won't plunk a fired case, that means the buildup is preventing the case from seating fully into the chamber, instead of preventing the boolit from seating in the throat of the barrel.

I thought that GT27 had a good idea and that sounds like a good thing to try, maybe send them the barrel and let them rework it or replace it.

Edit: Here's a photo for you, left side is the original barrel from a new Kahr CW45 pistol, it shoots fine, very accurate, it is picky as hell about chambering anything over a .451" boolit but chambers any and all factory ammo just fine. They replaced it with a new barrel because of the "pothole' in the rifling seen on the bottom. The new barrel on the right, is a lot better machined and look at the freebore before the rifling, the taper into the rifling is much more gradual and a whole bunch smoother than the original barrel.

A look down your barrel may find the problem is in how this area is finished and tapered into the rifling. Rifling that is too abrupt can scrape lead off the boolit, making the throat area tighter and tighter because of buildup until it won't chamber a round at all.

http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb374/DougGuy/Kahr%20CW45/Barrel2_zpse8441572.jpg (http://s1202.photobucket.com/user/DougGuy/media/Kahr%20CW45/Barrel2_zpse8441572.jpg.html)

[Centaur 1]

It wouldn't hurt to use an oversized brush in an electric drill to thoroughly clean the chamber. Don't give up on seating and crimping with the same step. You should also use your case deburring tool to put a chamfer on the inside of the case mouth.

1: Clean the chamber.
2: Chamfer the inside of the case mouth.
3: Follow my previously posted instructions very carefully, take your time and do it right.
4: Since you're getting lube ahead of the case, you can try something different. I tumble lube mine with straight JPW, once before sizing and once again after sizing. JPW works just fine at the velocities we're shooting and it dries hard.

Have you ever thought about trimming the all the cases to the same length, that also helps.

[tomme boy]

Chamfer the inside of the case mouth???????????

Never heard of anyone that does that loading for a pistol. If you bell the mouth, you don't need to do that. My Citadell (same thing as a RIA) was doing this sometimes as well. I had to send it in and have the barrel replaced as the timing was off on it and the last 1/8" of the barrel was missing the rifling. They did a polish and throated it for cast. I think this is the main reason you are having trouble. My gun came back with a new barrel and the throat was definitely made longer and smoother. It has never done it again.

Try to post a picture like above of the chamber on the gun. We might be able to see something.

[Centaur 1]

More like removing the burr from trimming the case than a chamfer. The first time I prep a once fired case I trim the length so all of my brass is uniform in length. It might not be necessary to trim a pistol cartridge, but the upside is that I can seat and crimp in one step.