Would like some feed back

[crashguy]

I would appreciate some input and critique, on a recent attempt to reload some 12 Ga slugs.
The reason/purpose of this slug load is just to shoot at the range /plinking (slugs only allowed) .

The load -The load was straight from the Hodgdon website Lee instructions. 1oz cast Lee slug (range salvage @ .985oz avg) 2 3/4 Remington Gun Club Hulls, Claybuster Cb-1100-12 wads , Win 209 primer and 36g HS-6 powder. Shot out of a Mossberg 930 spx (18 in cylinder bore barrel).
I loaded them on a lee load all. However during loading I had loaded several with a .125 nito card but they apparently made the shot column too long and I was unable to get a proper crimp. I disassembled those and did not use a nitro card in testing. Also full disclosure, I did do the test shown on this site to push the slug and wads with a dowel into the muzzle . The result was .... it did not smoothly enter the barrel.

The results at the range were .. Fired , functioned the action and feed all rounds. Chronied at 1350 avg and suffice to say the rounds were on paper at 50 yrds. All the wads were recovered about 25 - 30 feet from the muzzle. I have no idea what the wads should look like after firing and would appreciate some info as too what the condition of the wads represent to the suitability of the shotshell.

7476374764747657476674767

[longbow]

In my opinion those wads look HORRIBLE! Especially since the gas seal has shredded.

What was accuracy like though?

Generally I find that if the wad is missing petals or the gas seal has ruptured, accuracy is poor. Not always but usually.

I have not done much shooting with Lee slugs but first time out as cast Lee slugs in Winchester shotcups gave 6" groups at 50 yards. Modified Lee slugs gave about 4" groups. My recovered wads wee not in great shape but not as bad as yours. What matters is accuracy though. If they shoot okay and you are following book loads you are good to go. If not then the work is starting!

Longbow

[crashguy]

Longbow
Yeah ..I was afraid of that... on paper accuracy .. means torso hits on a silhouette target at 50 yrds. I guess the work is starting. Is it likely the pedals are being mangled while in the barrel ? and what might cause the gas seal shredding?

[Johnch]

IMO the Claybuster wads are the problem

I found they are soft compaired to Winchester or Federal made wads

When I switched I got a lot better groups

John

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello CrasgGuy, My brother LongBow is right about the wads looking horrible, but then I would not expect them to look any better either as they are made of sub- standard material and I personally would not touch them with a 10 foot pole.

Go with known brand of wads like Federal, Remington, Winchester or even Versalite if your barrel is a bit overbored.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Fitinwadandbarrel_zpsdc595415.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Fitinwadandbarrel_zpsdc595415.jpg.html)
there is another new kid on the block BPI Trap Commander:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeDriveKeysluginwadcopy.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/LeeDriveKeysluginwadcopy.jpg.html)
look on the right of the picture and raise your slug by putting a nitro card below the slug in wad and let it stick out a bit so this way it will help open your fold crimp and the wad petals will not get mangled in the process as they will follow behind.
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeKeyWadcombo.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/LeeKeyWadcombo.jpg.html)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeKeyinFed12S4and12S3wad.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/LeeKeyinFed12S4and12S3wad.jpg.html)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Fed12S0andLeeslug.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Fed12S0andLeeslug.jpg.html)

The regular wad petals are not designed strong enough to be able to push open a roll crimp or even a fold crimp.

Your charge of HS-6 36 gr did not achieve the required velocity because the wad could not withstand the high pressure.
Change your wad and reduce your charge to 32, 32.5 and then try 33 gr of HS-6 and then fold crimp.

Watch out for powder migration:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/Powerslipping.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/Powerslipping.jpg.html)
a simple way to correct this problem is cut a 1 inch square piece of regular paper or better yet a round disk of paper and place it over the powder and then place your wad with slug.

Hoping it helps my fellow Musketeer Slug Shooter!!

Best regards,
Ajay
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
http://slugshooting.accountsupport.c.../viewforum.php

[crashguy]

Ok, fellas ...got it.... change the wads, back off the charge, use nitro cards ... I knew there had to be a reason why those claybusters were available when the Winchesters were all sold out. I have been going through this shotgun forum for while hoping to get it right the first time out, alas... there is no better teacher than experience. I knew you guys would be the ones to set me straight. I will hunt some new (and better) wads down, re-test and update my result.

[jmort]

This place has been pretty quiet lately. Glad to see some action. Nothing to add other than to say, "what they said."

[Hogtamer]

What they said! I've loaded that much HS-6 and that's no plinker...drp to 32 grns and a nitro card (I use 16 ga. In the 12 ga. Wad as it will not spread the petals) or 2 to get required height as Ajay's pics demonstrate. You want the slug to open the crimp, not the wad. For lighter loads I use 19.5 grns of Clays.

[crashguy]

Hogtamer - LOL, yeah when I set the first one off I was glad I was using my semi and not the pump, but.. by plinker I meant .. I'm not shooting at anything in particular.... not...I think this is a nice little load that you and your best gal could shoot all day long. I will take your advise as well, thanks and BTW every time I hear about those feral pigs I get so pissed of ... I hope you have a good recipe for those SOB's and plenty opportunities to use it.

[TX.shotgun01]

I load the LEE 1oz slug and deer hunt with them, I use the Win 12AA SL wads and use Bluedot as my powder and had no problems with them being all messed up, you may want to try them as well. They are fun to shoot!

[longbow]

Another thought is... alloy. Lee recommends soft lead. Most seem to use ACWW or range scrap which is maybe a bit softer.

As I said, I haven't done much shooting with Lee slugs and mine are range scrap. I did find them slightly snug in my Winchester wads. generally I have found best accuracy with both slugs and round balls with a loose sliding fit. Not sloppy but fairly loose.

I have not polished my forcing cone and that may be part of the issue but I find if my wad/slug fit takes any significant effort to push through the barrel I see wad damage.

I will get some new shoes for my brake cylinder hone and do a little forcing cone clean up.

I have never seen gas seal shredding as bad as those photos! The worst I have seen is Winchester AA Red's which do not work well for me. They seem "soft" and I often see crushed petals and blown gas seals in at least one spot and sometimes two. I do not see that with Winchester AA pink, white or yellow or Pacific Veralite wads. I mostly use Winchester pink and white.

Not sure what the potential for Lee slugs is but as I said, my first outing gave me 6" groups with as cast, 4" groups with attached wad and good round ball loads run 3" to 4". So anything that is over 4" isn't as good as round ball... to 50 yards anyway.

Longbow

[crashguy]

Longbow- My alloy is range scrap too... cant believe it's too hard, but, harder than pure lead for sure... the slugs are not perfectly round the widest point is .685 dia . Does that sound right? Can I size them?


If I understand how the combination of components work together...... I should be trying to have my powder charge and wad bring the slug to a point above the cup petals so the slug actually breaks the the folded crimp and the petals are clear to exit the hull. Adjustments can be made to the slug /petal relationship with nitro cards and/or trimming the petals. Also, ensure the wad and slug together can fit smoothly in the barrel.

[OnHoPr]

Those wads look bad in any case but it might be caused by your chamber to forcing cone area since you don't have a ported barrel. My wads look like that on the gas seal out of my 835 but it is because of the ported barrel. They are always symmetrically torn up at the gas seal the same width as my ports. The heavier the load the more damage to the gas seal. The pedals are inconsistent with most wads except for the heavier steel shot wads in my shotgun. I have got good groups out of the 835 though (even one ragged hole at 50 yds with 5 shots) but not consistently. I think I have a inconsistent problem with 2 3/4" hulls launching through the 3 1/2" chamber with the regular style wads and the way that portion of the barrel is designed but it shoots particular sabot loads extremely well. Since you don't have ports I can only assume that your wads are getting torn up at launch. I tried a slight remedy to the problem of torn pedals but seemed to have lost accuracy in the rifled barrel. In your smooth barrel you could try greasing the pedals and gas seal with maxi-lube, bore butter, or the like. If I greased my wads they stayed intact or at least better condition. Since you have a smooth bore it may help with the wads. Try lowering the charge to about 30 gr also or just enough to use the nitro card. The pure lead is softer than the range lead I do believe, maybe longbow was getting a little tired while posting or had a couple of mooseheads at the local watering hole (friday nite time). I really haven't noticed a difference in accuracy between the pure Pb, ACWW, WQWW, or an alloy of the two, but that might be because of the chamber area and ports also. It also didn't matter if I pushed them 1200 fps or 2000 fps I still got inconsistencies from good to bad from the same loads at different testing outings. But then I blew a couple of scopes at the higher velocities. If your gun has a factory fixed barrel then you shouldn't have to much problem from your receiver sight to the front sight and it should be able to shoot decent as setup if you find your load. Take a mirror and light and try to take a peak in your chamber and forcing cone area. Are you making sure that your mold is lubed at the hinges and the v blocks while casting. The aluminum blocks can get sticky and not want to close all the way while casting and hot. I just took a quick peak at your wads again. Look at where and how your pedals are tearing, the lee slug is tapered on the bottom, your wad seems to be being pushed up and bunched up into the taper at launch and then getting thinned out at the forcing cone. Those wads are soft, maybe try the Federal series wads and a nitro card underneath the slug. The nitro card underneath the slug should help from the bunching up and a little grease on the sides wouldn't hurt with the wads that you do have though.

[longbow]

What I meant but didn't say well is that range scrap is a bit softer than ACWW not pure lead. I was just thinking that if fit is tight then a soft lead slug may swage a bit without mangling the shotcup. I do find that a loose slide fit works best for me with balls or slugs. My Lee slugs are also a little tighter than I would like.

Yes, you can size the slugs but I doubt there is a commercial sizer available. I have been planning on making a hammer sizer using steel bar bored to about 0.675"/0.680" and a punch just undersize so I can hammer the slugs through. They are more work to use than a press mounted sizer but cheap and effective.

Longbow

[crashguy]

OnHoPr--Your post mortem of the wads makes complete sense, and helps me visualize what is taking place during the firing / launch process. I am going to assemble some shells with the components I have on hand, with an adjusted powder charge to accommodate the addition of a nitro card. I'll add some lube for good measure too.

[crashguy]

Longbow - I have no doubt that you know relative alloy hardness of lead WW and scrap. I don't think that the hardness would be giving the result I have. You guys have convinced me I have a wad issue.
As for the sizer.. I envisioned using a threaded piece of black pipe maybe 3 inches long , taper reamed to .680. The threaded end goes into My Lee breech lock collar , and that installs into my press(Lee Breech Lock) similar to the way the Lee push though sizer dies . That way I could use the press... if it dosent take too much force. Just a thought.

[OnHoPr]

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?129739-1oz-Lee-Ported-Barrels-Steel-Wads

longbow -- check out this thread, mostly page 2, jmsj's post. He still posts here, maybe you could ask him a bit how he made his. I still keep his post in the back of the ole noodle and if I get back into the lee slug instead of the sabot style shooting or thinking, I'd PM him. This is where the lee slug can be sized to accommodate the heavier pedal steel wads. Though the wad column would still need to be considered for accuracy IMO. But my accuracy wishes maybe a little stringent say consistently less than 2" at 50 and less than 4" at 100. It wouldn't really matter the speed of the slug as long as it was above 1200 and below 1800, the low for wind and the high for scope longevity. The way the lee slug is designed with the key and can be made soft or hardened should be good on larger game even with raking shots, something that the regular foster might have a problem with at especially at the longer ranges of 75 yds and above. As well as being a little more brush tougher, but not as brush tough as the full bore solid like the Dixies.

[longbow]

I am thinking that since Lee slugs are basically Fosters with an internal rib sizing shouldn't be too difficult. Personally I think they are a bit big and have a bit too much taper to them. Many have good success with them and I can't complain about my first field tests, they did better than most Fosters I have shot... at least home cast and loaded Fosters.

I lean towards solid slugs with attached wads or plain 'ol round balls.

My glue skirt TC solids are doing pretty well so far though I do have to shoot some at 100 yards to see if the accuracy holds up.

If I was shooting a rifled gun I would be shooting either 0.735" round balls or a round ball in shotcup (0.678"?). I have only shot rifled barrel once and used 0.735" RB's which gave me 2" +/- a bit groups at 50 yards. Pretty impressive in my book. They do well in my smoothbores too but somewhere between 50 and 100 yards they tend to stray a bit giving inconsistent 100 yard groups.

Its all fun though. I have been searching for 100 yard smoothbore accuracy of the fabled 4" group but am still trying unsuccessfully... but having fun doing it.

Longbow

[stripercrazy]

I tried to push that wad and lee slug backwards into my rem 1100 barrel smoothbore I couldn't...try it in yours...I'd love to find out how it gos...too tight pinching off pedals and blowing the seal....interesting

[crashguy]

I tried to push that wad and lee slug backwards into my rem 1100 barrel smoothbore I couldn't...try it in yours...I'd love to find out how it gos...too tight pinching off pedals and blowing the seal....interesting

Dosent fit into my barrel ..too tight. Yes this is all interesting .... but I was hoping for boring and predictable.

[crashguy]

Upon closer examination of the my cb -1100- 12 wads I found that the petals have a rib down the center of that gets thicker at the base and decreases the interior cup by at least .020 and results in a flaring of the petals. Use of the .125 nitro card does reduce the influence of the rib but it obviously increases the height of the column which in turn effects crimping. It is clear that a change of wads is appropriate.

[stripercrazy]

thanks, I'm in the same boat as you lol I got 500 bad wads

[OnHoPr]

A thought crossed my mind as to the thickening of the center of the pedals near the base of the cup would keep the tapered Lee from canting in the barrel at launch to prevent a wobble. You could also try splitting the .125 nitro card to shorten the wad column.

[crashguy]

Those thick portions of the petals are messing the whole processes, the slug / cup fit and the wad/ hull fit. I actually removed them with sandpaper and with a 125 card everything fits together much better and they fit into the barrel ala Ajay's test. and... Split the nitro card .... easy enough ... I'll keep that in mind as an option when I assemble some more shells.

[crashguy]

78035780367803778038
Here is an update and a question.
I tried several combinations- all Remington gun club hulls, 30 g HS-6 and cb-1100-12 wads - first had no nitro card , second had one nitro card under the slug, the last had a nitro card under the slug and I sanded the ribs off the inside of the wad cup ( because the ribs caused the petals to flair) . The photo of the spent wads are from this test ... all mangled and the over powder cup portion was frayed at the edges as well. The photo of the target shows the combined accuracy of the whole lot at 50 yards offhand ( As far as the accuracy ..hey.. they are intended for range use, so what heck, they all hit paper ) Any input is welcome on those.
Now the question . The other photos show a proposed shot column. I cut up a wad and used nitro cards to adjust the height for proper crimp and fit. Is this a viable option or accepted practice for building a custom shot column?
And Yes .... I have some federal wads on order because I realize these wads are not cutting it .... I just can't resist trying.

[Hogtamer]

I loaded a bunch of the 1oz but have had much better success with the 7/8 lee slugs. They are a little shorter with thinner skirts but more importantly more front heavy. Lay them on there sides and they won't stay - they stand on their noses. Either slug though, I use BPI symmetrical OP wad, a waa12r, 1 or 2 nitro cards depending on slug out of federal hull. They are straight walled and your wad gets a deeper seat than the Reminton hulls you're using. My best load for 7/8 is 36 gr longshot in 2 3/4 fed. Hull which is manageable but stout. If you had to do one thing different with the components you have on hand, find some federal hulls and give them a try.

[crashguy]

I assembled some more today. Mind you I am trying to stick to the recipe ( from the Hodgdon site ) the problem I am having is the replacement claybuster wads are not allowing the slug to sit on the bottom of the cup without spreading the petals and causing. I actually managed to get the slug into the wads buy heating the wads then pressing the softened wad with a slug in it , into the muzzle of the barrel. This forms the wad around the slug and allows the whole thing to friction fit into the barrel .. like the slug wad test . I trimmed the petals , popped it out and there ya go. The wads sits atop 30g of HS-6 and the crimp is good or slightly depressed. I figure with a full load of 36g or a card under the slug that would take up the space I am now missing. Seems it all came down to the wrong wads plain and simple. I will test these and await the arrival of the proper wads , but ,in the mean time I will test these out .. hey I came this far, it's the principle of the thing now. I am thankful for the help and encouragement.... I guess you can't be a true Musketeer if you don't put in the time.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Elite Musketeer Brother CrashGuy, take it from one Musketeer to another Musketeer, you will be better of throwing those Sub standard quality wads, its like putting all the efforts to built a "Castle of sand"

Please go out to the nearest gun shop and pick up only the best wads from Federal or Winchester.

Together we will change the way we load Nitro Express Slug loads, for sure ! !

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here.

" One for all & All for one "

Best regards,
Ajay
Blazing Sabots, LLC
http://www.BlazingSabots.com
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
http://www.facebook.com/BlazingSabots?ref=hl
http://slugshooting.accountsupport.com/ ... wforum.php
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthr ... ot!/page1
http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...f=118&t=196961
http://www.deeranddeerhunting.com/fo...p?f=43&t=39246
http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/slug-gu...old-is-gold-!/
-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.
Location: New Jersey. USA / Frankfort, W.Germany / London, UK

[longbow]

Not sure about HS6 but be careful with loading when you remove the cushion leg from the wad.

I have done it using Blue Dot with no problems and my take is that with slow powders it has little effect but... when I read BPI's load recipes for for short hulls I got a surprise, they seem to build more pressure than a larger charge of powder in a longer hull. How I asked? Well, the short hull loads do not have a cushion leg where the long hull loads do. I think that loss of volume due to cushion leg compression after ignition is the reason. Again, my take is that with fast powders this seems to be more prevalent than with slow powders.

So, to be safe, cross check with other loads and shot loads looking at wad columns and types of wads (stiff versus soft). If in doubt drop the charge a few grains if you eliminate the cushion leg.

A benefit of using the gas seal under the hard card wad column is that the gas seal may be better supported against the flat hard cards than the cushion leg and it may seal better without blowing. It is worth a try, but yes, better wads is a better solution.

Longbow

[crashguy]

Update- I put together a few more shells. Here is the result7986679867798687986979870798717987279873

All were Remington gun club hulls, 1 oz Lee slug, win 209 , 30g HS-6. at 50 yrds supported, Mossberg 930 18 in cylinder bore. The photo with the red wads ( downrange )had half a .125 nitro card . The purple wads Fed 12s3 with a .125 nitro card . The pink wads were the claybusters with no card. I managed to get them to fit by using heat to soften them and stuff them into a barrel forming them and sizing them. It actually worked but took a while to put them to get them together. these wads were mangled, some nearly split from the key drive. The gas seals were torn on all but the federal wads and I realized that although my barrel is not ported, it is gas operated and there are 2 gas ports mid barrel that line up perfectly with tears in the seal. Mystery solved .. but I do not know what effect it has on the slug. the petals are just being torn off ... should that be a concern in my load development? Also I think I need to clean my barrel the recovered wads look filthy.... Will a dirty barrel effect the wad as it travels through?

As a side note to another endevour....In an effort to be more self sufficient .. the last photo shows a batch of shot (size 6-9 ) I made using my lee pot , some pipe fittings and a propane torch( that's a whole other story) I loaded it up into some 1 oz loads with 700x and got reasonable results for a cylinder bore at 10 -20 yards.

Ed

[MarkP]

I used the silver CB wads (AA 7/8 oz clone) and Hodgdon Longshot and Al Pro-Reach powders, My wads looked fairly well intact except the inside surface of the gas cup at the slug's heal extruded up into the slug's hollow base. I filled the hollow base with CAR RED lube I think it help accuracy, it lessened the extrusion of the gas cup into the hollow base. (REM 870 Rifled bbl w iron sights & 1187 Rifled bbl scoped)

I bought the Lyman 525 gr (giant air rifle pellet looking slug)and have not used the Lee for at least 3 years. IMO the Lyman is an easier slug to work with both when casting, loading, and shooting. It just works from light plinker loads to full. I use the same silver wads and they extrude up into the base of the Lyman slug but accuracy is rifle like at 75 yds. It may be more uniform / concentric since the Lyman does not have the drive key rib as the Lee has. Possibly the Lee has an initial yaw at slug wad separation (just a wild guess) 4 inch groups at best versus 1.5" groups. The Lyman has minimal bearing surface at skirt and small land up front.

Interesting note: I shot one of these slugs at my 16" gong from a distance of 160 yds offhand and hit it. Very surprised I tried it again and hit it again, and did it a few more times. So being curious how they would group I placed a large sheet of card board on my target holder that is only 10 yards further out from my gong. Could not hit the cardboard and it a was a 4' x 4' sheet and I was resting the gun while shooting. But could still ding the gong that was ten yards closer. I found the slugs strikes in the grass several feet from the cardboard sheet. I recovered some of the slugs you could load them again almost no damage they were just in the root system of the prairie grass.

[pipehand]

Crashguy, I'm waiting for that "whole nuther story" about the Lee pot shotmaker. It sounds like you went beyond the practice of putting a can of water under the spout to use the drips as swanshot.

[crashguy]

Ok Pipehand... because you asked for it.
Let me preface this whole thing with saying this project was intended to provide me with a small quantity of # 6 and smaller shot for use at close range ( less than 25 yards from a smooth bore cylinder barrel). The shot was by no means perfect but the shot produced satisfied my goal.
Being I'm in New York, I would consider this a "ghetto shot maker" ... down south it might be a "hillbilly shot maker", out west ? , I have no idea.. maybe a "chuck wagon shot maker" would be a good description. Also, like most other projects I undertake, the items I use are generally what I have laying around my shop, so, if any of the components I used are not what may be considered .."optimal".. just keep that in mind.
The goal of this maker is to melt the lead in the Lee pot and have it flow into the cast iron pipe cap that was tapped for a welding tip down an aluminum ramp and into the coolant. Simple.
Actually .. not simple, but not to bad either. I had a bit of trial and error but over all this was the setup I had in mind when I started. This system needs to be monitored, the pipe cap and ramp needs to be kept hot, I used a propane torch and it worked just fine. The small pieces of metal and washer are used to level the pipe cap and adjust the height of the dripper from the ramp. The pedestal the pipe cap sits on is a soup can cut for proper height The ramp is just a piece of aluminum polished and soapstoned. It is all held in place by gravity , nothing is secured. I just used regular straight anti-freeze as a coolant. The dripper also needs to be cleaned periodically, that little wire is from a bread twistie. I trust you guys can figure out my shot recovery system. I kept the cap filled and the flow was good, the torch ensured everything stayed that way. Once I got everything up to temp and flowing I just added lead to the pot and let it run (about 8-10 lbs and hour). I was limited in duration by the capacity of my coolant container and the need to stop flow in order to remove the produced shot.
My set up is a bit precarious and I'm sure there are some among you that will come up with much better configurations. When you do please share (LOL, if I have it in my shop I'll give it a try)
800158001680017800188001980020.

[pipehand]

Thanks. That is ingenious.

[crashguy]

Pipehand...thanks, you are very generous. It was the result of combining frugality, the need for self sufficiency and free time.

[Hogtamer]

Crashguy, that rig suggest you have the makings of an honorary redneck! If it just had some duct tape on it some where we'd sign you up!

[SSGOldfart]

Hmmm that's great it could be made into a double dropper easily