My new (to me) Winchester 1895 rifle w/ Lyman model 21 receiver sight ...

[Reverend Al]

Well, I've wanted to add a Winchester Model 1895 to my collection of vintage, but shootable rifles for some time and I just found and purchased a very nice old 28" round barrel .303 British with a Lyman Model 21 receiver sight. Overall it is in very good condition for it's age with about 60 to 70% original blueing remaining and very decent condition original stocks (not refinished). The serial # puts it's year of manufacture at about the middle of 1912. The gun had been tucked away for many years by an older gentleman, never shot by him, and although the bore was a bit dark and dusty from sitting so long, after a few brisk sessions with some Hoppes #9 and a stiff brush it is looking quite good now.
The next step will be to take it out to my local gun club and run a few test rounds through it to see what it will do on paper, which brings me to the point of this post. Does anyone here have any experience with this particular model of Lyman "ladder" style receiver sight and do you have any suggestions on how to make any needed sight adjustments with it? I've used lots of other models of Lyman receiver and tang sights, but I don't have any experience with the Model 21. Any tips regarding this model of sight would be greatly appreciated!
Many thanks in advance,
Al

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[Ben]

I'd really like to hear this one talk and tell it's story.

Ben

[shredder]

I'd really like to hear this one talk and tell it's story.

Ben

No kidding. What a treasure that winchester is. Wiping the drool off my keyboard. A .303 is pretty scarce in that gun, I myself have never seen one in the flesh(steel). I bet it shoots cast well once you find out the sweet spots.

[bob208]

the little screw on the top left is to set your zero. the slide is relised by pushing down on the thumb extension. the sight is free to slid then. you shoot it in for 100 yds. the run screw down till it stops. that way it will retrun to zero. then you shoot at increasing yards knoting where the pointer is on the slide. 2 lines 200 yd. 3 lines 300 yds. and on. windage is by moving the sight block on the rear sight. some had a screw adj. for windage.

[Scharfschuetze]

Nice!

Bob is on for using and zeroing the sight, but it's hard to tell what that Lyman sight was calibrated for with those elevation index marks. I'll bet it was something other than the 303 British and thus those index lines may not correlate to any given range given your load and sight radius, so here is another way to determine the values of those index marks on the sight.

1. Let us know the distance in inches from the rear peep to the front sight. From that we can determine what one MOA is in thousands of an inch for your rifle. At a guess it's probably about .009 of an inch.

2. With that established, you can use a caliper or dial caliper to measure the distance between each elevation index line, divide by the MOA value of the S/R and then you can use the sight for various ranges once you know the trajectory in MOA for the load you settle on for the rifle.

Post the sight radius in your next visit and we'll get started.

I've always thought that a 95 in 303 or 30/40 Krag would just be the cat's meow and a perfect cast boolit rifle.

[Reverend Al]

OK, many thanks for the great info! I wish I knew the history of this old gem, but like so many it is just another old gun that someone's uncle had "stashed" away and he's passed on and can't tell where it came from. These guns pop up from time to time around here and of course the .303 British was the Canadian equivalent to your .30-40 Krag military cartridge during that time period so the calibre isn't as scarce up here in Canada as it is down there in the USA. I still have a hankering to play a bit with one in .35 WCF too and I've missed 2 of them in the last few months since I placed proxy bids that were just a bit too low at a couple of Canadian firearms auctions back East. I do have a line on a 3rd one right now and I'm waiting to hear back from my email to the seller to see what condition the bore is in and we'll go from there. I might still get my .35WCF to play with yet!
Anyway, here is the measurement on the sight radius on this one. From the inside face of the bead on the front sight to the back side of the rear aperture is 31" in length ... very looonnnng thanks to that 28" barrel! The tape measure was handy to get that length, but I'll have to dig out some calipers to measure the "hash marks" on the rear sight adjustments. I'll add those measurements when I get a spare minute ...
Cheers,
Al

[Kansas Ed]

I have several different calibers in the 1895. The 303B was the second hardest to find in original condition (the hardest being the 40-72). Them things are scarce as hens teeth. Mine shoots very very well. Believe it or not, the 123gr bullets meant for the 7.62x39 shot very well in mine. I'd say it's the most accurate lever gun I own.

This target was shot with 180's. Two shots, then adjusted the sights for the next three.

74769

Ed

[Reverend Al]

Now THAT is pretty impressive for one of these old girls! What load were you using with those 180's? Were they boolits or "J" words? What distance did you shoot those groups? That is some mighty fine shooting ...
8-)

[Cosmiceyes]

Beautiful gun! :)'s

[Idaho Mule]

Reverend Al, that thing is obviously a misfit, a severe obomanation of something!! Your best bet would be to send it to me in Idaho and "just let me take care of it". No, not really. Congratulations on a beautiful rifle. I have been looking for one of those for a while and would love to have one, but they are a little scarce. I know you will take good care of her and feed it well. Please keep us posted on your progress. Again, beautiful rifle. JW

[Scharfschuetze]

Reverend Al,

The math comes out to .00901" for a 1 MOA value with the 31" sight radius. How's that for a guess just looking at the photo! When you measure those elevation index lines, just divide the distance between them with .009 to find the MOA value between them. Then you can easily come up for the different ranges you plan to shoot at and be pretty close to on.

Example: Lets say the distance between the first and second lines is .05"

.05 / .009 = 5.5 MOA

Once you get the true measurements between the gradually increasing gaps between the index lines you can figure out the MOA values and use that sight out to pretty long range and be pretty close if you know the trajectory of your round.

[Reverend Al]

Well, then I guess I'd better not start posting any further photos of some of my other Winchesters, etc. or I might just spark a cross border raid!
:kidding:

74800748017480274803

Well, if I start counting them off on my fingers ... there is a very clean 1894 Winchester octagon take down in .30WCF with the special order 3 leaf express sight (plus it was mfg in 1895 the first year for the .30WCF calibre), plus an 1892 Winchester octagon take down in .44WCF, 3 Winchester 1892 SRC's in .44WCF, 2 Winchester 1892's in .32WCF, 3 Winchester 1894 SRC's in .32-40, .38-55 and .25-35, a Winchester 1894 rb rifle in .32-40 (1899 mfg), a Winchester Hotchkiss carbine in .45-70, 2 Winchester High Walls in .32-40 & .38-55 plus a Winchester Low Wall in .22 WCF. Then I'd have to go into all the other various makes and models of levers, single shots and bolt guns such as my Ballard .32-40, a New York Militia .50-70 Govt. Rolling Block, a .45-70 Trapdoor Springer, a large action British military Martini in .303 British, an 1893 Marlin in .32-40, and two of the most beautiful German Schuetzen rifles you've ever seen in 9.5x47R that I was lucky enough to find and then acquire. On top of all that there are a few full wood Mausers in various models and calibres and a fair variety of shotguns in different gauges too. (How about a little sxs hammer gun chambered for .44-40 shot cartridges or a sxs hammer Cape Gun in .44-40 and 12 gauge?) I won't even TRY to get started on listing the various handguns in the collection since I just realized that I ran out fingers quite a few guns back! I spent most of my life building up a pretty fair collection of retirement "shooters" and now that retirement has finally arrived I just have to get out to the range and do some more shooting with these old jewels!
:Fire:

[Reverend Al]

Awesome sight info ... thanks so very much for that! When I get some time I'll go digging for the calipers and measure the distance between the index lines and write them down. Maybe if I can supply you with those measurements you can tell me what cartridge you think this particular sight was originally calibrated for?
Cheers,
Al

[Reverend Al]

Oh ... and by the way, I also just picked up a neat little "Ball & Williams" mfg Civil War era Ballard 22" barrel carbine in .44 rimfire with a good shooter bore ... so I might need some of those Dixie Arms machined brass round ball adapters to get this one shooting ...
:kidding:

74806

[Win94ae]

That is so cool!

[Scharfschuetze]

Yikes!

That's a wonderful collection Reverend. I've spent most of my time ferreting out Trapdoor Springfields, but I too have a few Winchesters and Marlins.

The wife and I vacation in Victoria every couple of years so perhaps the next time we take the Victoria Clipper up your way we can meet at Swans brew pub and hotel (near the draw bridge) and have an ale while talking about old rifles.

[MT Chambers]

Very nice, esp. the '95, most all the '95s found in Canada are chambered for the .303 Br., as is mine.....I don't know that I've seen any other cal. here in Canada, oh....except for a lovely "flatside' .38/72.

[Kansas Ed]

Now THAT is pretty impressive for one of these old girls! What load were you using with those 180's? Were they boolits or "J" words? What distance did you shoot those groups? That is some mighty fine shooting ...
8-)

Al, the load was with Sierra 180's and 39.0 gr of IMR-4064, add a CCI-BR primer. I have some cast 210gr bullets I need to try in it, but haven't gotten back to that particular rifle yet. Factory flat top rear sight and factory front blade. Velocity was 2364 fps. Standard deviation was 10. Shots were at about 60 yards....(that's about the best my aging eyes can pin the small targets). There was a tiny stick on orange dot on there but it flaked off before I shot the photo... Start lower and work your way up as usual...Good luck with your rifle...that is a real "bury it with me" rifle :-)

Ed

[bearbud]

Congratulations on the new gun Reverend Al. The Winchester 1895 is one of my favorite rifles.
I have the exact same one with the same sight but mine was made in 1922 and has much less blueing left. I don’t think that the Lyman 21 sight was calibrated to a specific cartridge. I have several rifles with this sight that came this way from the factory. Every rifle is in a different cartridge. (1895 in 30-40 and 303 and 1892 in 25-20 and 32-20.) The graduations on the sight look the same to me on all of rifles. To make adjustments, I just move the sight up and down as needed based on the bullet placement on the target at the different ranges. The zero screw is used as described bob208.
All my old Winchesters are lead boolits only guns and I don’t really know how they shoot with jacketed bullets. The bore on my 303 1895 is 0.3135” and I ordered the NOE 316299 for it. I cast 3:1 coww to lead + some tin, size to 0.315” and lube with 2500+. I use mostly 2400, sr4759 and re7 with great results at the 1500-1800fps range.

[Reverend Al]

Awesome guys! Many thanks for the load suggestions, hopefully it'll save me a bunch of time!
:-)
Sure Scharf! Next time you're coming up to our neck of the woods pop me a PM and we'll arrange to meet!
8-)

[hunter64]

Very nice, esp. the '95, most all the '95s found in Canada are chambered for the .303 Br., as is mine.....I don't know that I've seen any other cal. here in Canada, oh....except for a lovely "flatside' .38/72.

I know what you mean. I took me 8 years of hard "hunting" to find an original 1895 in .405 Winchester that had not been altered or was not a current remake.

Finally found one at a local gun show and by chance it was the first year of manufacture the .405 Win was chambered which is an added bonus. Love the rifle and can't wait to take it out in the field Moose Hunting if I get time this year.

[muskeg13]

Beautiful rifle. What a good find! The only difference between the Lyman Model 21 and Model 38 is the Model 38 has windage adjustment knobs. As far as loads, I'd try to duplicate the older factory loads, like 215gr @ about 2100 or a 180 gr @ about 2400.

[Reverend Al]

Actually, I hadn't really thought about the old 215 grainer rounds ... I'll have to have a look, because I think I might still have some old factory "Dominion" ammo with those big 215 grain bullets. I'll have to give them a "test drive" too!

[Kansas Ed]

Finding a stash of 215gr bullets in this caliber proved near impossible for me. Use them sparingly. I finally did get about 100, and I treat them like my grandmothers china.

Ed

[yooper]

Beautiful '95 Reverend Al!! I sent you a PM on another subject.
yooper

[muskeg13]

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/746084/woodleigh-bullets-303-british-77mm-japanese-312-diameter-215-grain-weldcore-round-nose-soft-point-box-of-50

[Reverend Al]

What the ....? $72.00 per hundred for 215 grain Woodleigh bullets! (Plus shipping!) Dang! I hope it shoots those plain old 180's WAY better than the 215's ...
:shock:

[TXGunNut]

Very nice find, Reverend Al. Should fit in nicely with your collection. Had the pleasure of shooting with an old friend this past weekend who had a similar sight mounted on his 1896-built 1894 in 30 WCF. He called it a Peabody sight but I didn't see any markings to confirm that.
I agree with Ben, I'd love to hear the stories these old rifles could tell.

[Reverend Al]

Actually I just found this info today and what your friend must have is a reproduction of the Lyman Model 21 receiver sight mfg by Providence Tool Company. They had some tips on sighting in with their sight too. Here is the link to their info sheet as a pdf ...
http://www.providencetoolcompanyllc.com/uploads/2/7/8/0/2780149/sightinstallationinstructions.pdf

[Reverend Al]

Well, after several days of scrubbing the bore and leaving it wet with Hoppes #9 it cleaned up was looking pretty good so we took it out to the range and shot it today. Looks like it'll probably be a shooter too as the results were mildly promising. I shot a few different factory loads through it, but I didn't shoot any serious groups yet for a few good reasons.
First, I had a bit of mixed bag of factory loads in different brands and bullet weights that I just wanted to shoot through it to test the function of the gun and to help clean up the barrel a bit more, so I wasn't expecting any terrific groups today. I started out at 25 yards and it was printing 12 O'clock high fairly close on centre. I turned up the lever on the receiver sight to slacken it off the "slider" and it appeared that the upper part of the sight with the aperture was all the way down to the set screw in it's current position. I got out a small screwdriver and turned the set screw up a bit farther so the the sight could come down a bit and then I shot a few more test rounds at 50 yards to check zero and group. It shot a few more rounds to 12 O'clock high again (about 6" high of centre with a centre hold on the bull) and then it started to shoot some vertical strings rather than round groups. Assuming that the barrel was getting too warm (and it was a bit) I stopped shooting and gave the barrel another good brushing out with Hoppes while it was still warm. I let it cool down for a bit and then shot a few more test rounds, but I still got vertical stringing with the now cold barrel. Hmmmmmm ...
I got curious and pushed on the bottom of the adjustable slide on the sight and sure enough it pushed up easily, even with the locking lever turned all the way down on the friction lock. It looks like the lever isn't locking the graduated "slider" like it should when you pivot the lever to the down position. Lifted it up again ... turned it down again ... just to double check things ... and sure enough it wasn't locked again and you could push the "slider" up and down on the receiver very easily. Downright loose in fact. I gave the gun another good scrub with some more Hoppes and a brush and I left it to soak. (Looking pretty good now too after about 20 rounds of ammo and then wiping it out with a wet patch ...) I'll have to pull apart the rear sight assembly and see if something is worn or broken or if the sight locking lever is assembled incorrectly? Obviously that sliding "ladder" should be locking into place solidly when the lever is cammed down and it just isn't doing that at all.
So guys, any tips on what to check for when I get this sight apart?
Next time I go to shoot this '95 I'll definitely find a target with a larger sized bull too, as these old eyes were having trouble getting a decent sight picture with the targets I was using today. These sights are pretty coarse and the front sight bead was covering up WAY too much of the bull to get a decent sight picture!)
I also discovered that it has a fairly big firing pin hole in the bolt face too (or an undersized firing pin?) as it is cratering primers a fair bit. I had a few old Winchester 180 Silvertips in .303 British and when I tried to shoot those I "popped" two primers and had to stop shooting them! They felt like a bit of a stiffer load then the rest of what I was shooting, plus they might be much softer primers as well? Everything else I tried through it today fed and shot fine, but they all had fairly heavily cratered primers when I looked over the fired cases. It has a typically large chamber for a .303 Brit too and the fired cases are a little bit swollen up at the base, but no worse than those that come out of a typical military Lee Enfield rifle.
The journey continues ...
:Fire:

[TXGunNut]

I think we're going to the range again tomorrow, hopefully he'll bring it for another look.
Sounds like your rifle could very well be a shooter, it's most certainly interesting. Hopefully there's a way to shim the locking lever, not hard to imagine the stud or bolt getting a little "stretched" over the years. Incorrectly assembled would be nice as well. Happy tinkering!