A funny thing happened at the Gun shop today

[Piglead]

I wandered down to my gun dealer today to pay for a Rossi 92 in 44-40 ! I was going well until he opened the safe to get it out .As he did I noticed a Trapper in 30-30 in almost new condition ! I found that I knew it's history & Knew for a fact that it would have been lucky to have fired 200rnds ! 8-) I decided there & then that I did'nt really want a Rossi !!!! & we settled down to haggle ! now my Gun Guy is also a Roo shooter but only works weekends & has not been having a good run of late ! So I suggested that if the pencil could be sharpened to cut the price I could probarly intised into letting him shoot a couple of my properties for a couple of months ! [smilie=1: After two hours of snarling & gnashing of teeth! (& a sum of $115.00) I walked away the owner of a near new 94 trapper! [smilie=w:

dave

[Buckshot]

............Piglead, you're a right wanker, but good on ya anyway! I suppose it helps to have land available for game shooting, to parlay with too. I know a couple guys who might trade quite a bit to hunt a ground squirrel infested field for a day or so.

............Buckshot

[Piglead]

............Piglead, you're a right wanker, but good on ya anyway! I suppose it helps to have land available for game shooting, to parlay with too. I know a couple guys who might trade quite a bit to hunt a ground squirrel infested field for a day or so.

............Buckshot

Buckshot let me explain ! As a Pro shooter I have acsess to around 20 large sheep stations in which I ply my trade ! Each is given a alocation of the Number of Roos they can destroy But they can only destroy so many them selves for personal use, the rest have to be culled by Pro shooters for pet food & human consumtion Some of these properties are about 800squ kms in size & take up a fair chunk of the north of SA ! So letting a weekend Semi Pro on do'nt really touch the surface of what I do ! The funy thing is that our family Property on which I live is only 20,000 acres Small by comparision but large in our neck of the woods But due to zoning I ca'nt shoot there as a Pro! Also I'm going back on to Camels for a spell on contract Culling! & it's nice to have a reliable shooter to watch over your patch!

[Scrounger]

Buckshot let me explain ! As a Pro shooter I have acsess to around 20 large sheep stations in which I ply my trade ! Each is given a alocation of the Number of Roos they can destroy But they can only destroy so many them selves for personal use, the rest have to be culled by Pro shooters for pet food & human consumtion Some of these properties are about 800squ kms in size & take up a fair chunk of the north of SA ! So letting a weekend Semi Pro on do'nt really touch the surface of what I do ! The funy thing is that our family Property on which I live is only 20,000 acres Small by comparision but large in our neck of the woods But due to zoning I ca'nt shoot there as a Pro! Also I'm going back on to Camels for a spell on contract Culling! & it's nice to have a reliable shooter to watch over your patch!

Twenty large sheep stations? Now you've done it! A couple of these guys from Texas will be knocking on your door in a few days. And they won't be there to shoot 'roos....

[carpetman]

Piglead---I dont relate to 800 squ KM"s---don't have a clue what size that is. Now the 20,000 acre place,I understand your problem. Too small to even have a yard. Atleast you don't have to mow. Maybe if a few of the neighbors would sell you their 20,000 acres,you could have a small lawn. BTW welcome and I like hearing the stories from Australia. G'day from Texas mate.

[Scrounger]

I told you, piglead, he's knocking on the door right now. And whatever you do, don't tell him about all the cats there...
By the way, that's about 300 square miles or sections.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I told you, piglead, he's knocking on the door right now. And whatever you do, don't tell him about all the cats there...
By the way, that's about 300 square miles or sections.

1mile=1.6km (roughly), therefore 800square kms, is closer to 500square miles. Decent walk to check the fences, which is why most of these places in australia don't have fences, for the cost of the fence, you could probably buy the joint next door. Sounds big, but you would probably need 20 acres to feed a single cow. My uncle when he was alive used to say the land outback was so sparse, a horse couldn't walk quick enough to get a feed. He used to call horses 'turners.' 'Turn good feed into ****, not much use for anything else boy!'

[grumble]

Right on, Mick. A Km is about 0.6 miles, so the easy way to do the conversion in your head is to multiply Km X 0.6. That comes in handy if you're driving an American car somewhere where the speed limits are posted in Km/hour. So, a 40 KPH speed zone is .6 X 40 = 24 MPH.

[9.3X62AL]

Right enough, .6 conversion factor linear measurement, or 5/8 if you think in fractions.

Squaring these linear differences yields an area differential factor of roughly .38 sq. mile = 1 sq. km. 1 sq. mile = 640 acres, so 1 sq. km = 243.2 acres.

It's still a LOT of friggin' land to hunt and ride herd on.

[Piglead]

The problem is that they can only run 4 sheep or one beast to the squr mile out furhter than us!Uor family find it hard growing wheat & running 800 sheep (why do I hear Texian teeth gnashing when ever I say sheep? [smilie=f: )

[wills]

The problem is that they can only run 4 sheep or one beast to the squr mile out furhter than us!Uor family find it hard growing wheat & running 800 sheep (why do I hear Texian teeth gnashing when ever I say sheep? [smilie=f: )


Six hundred forty acres per animal unit, not real lush grazing.

As you know, the Carpetman has taken up bicycling, a known side effect of which is numbness of the extremities, including the – emmm, shall we say, – “sheep prod” - so it may be the sheep will be safe for a while.

[Scrounger]

The problem is that they can only run 4 sheep or one beast to the squr mile out furhter than us!Uor family find it hard growing wheat & running 800 sheep (why do I hear Texian teeth gnashing when ever I say sheep? [smilie=f: )

Someone sent me an email telling me that one of our Moderators sold his property in Montana and is hitch-hiking to Australia...

[drinks]

PL;
Parts of West Texas, near where Carpetman live, have a capacity of 1 unit, that is , a cow and calf or a bull, per 300 acres.
Sheep and angora goats can be run a little more closely, but there is really not much out there to eat.
150 years ago, before the prairie dogs were poisoned out and the aquifers were pumped dry, the grass was 3-4' high, springs were all over the place and there was no mesquite, a legume from Mexico that destroys the land and water table, the prairie dogs kept it out, afer the prairie dogs went, the mesquite took over, now it only gets 8-12' high out there, when in other parts of Texas it gets to be 60 ' and 3' on the stump.

[trooperdan]

PL;
150 years ago, before the prairie dogs were poisoned out and the aquifers were pumped dry, the grass was 3-4' high, springs were all over the place and there was no mesquite, a legume from Mexico that destroys the land and water table, the prairie dogs kept it out, afer the prairie dogs went, the mesquite took over, now it only gets 8-12' high out there, when in other parts of Texas it gets to be 60 ' and 3' on the stump.

Drinks, that is very interesting! I haven't ever heard that prairie dogs served any good purpose at all! I din't know that the mesquite came from mexico either!

[carpetman]

Drinks---I never heard it explained that way---makes sense. I also didnt know mesquites were classified as legume. Hell,other than a peanut is a legume,I don't know what legumes are. I did know mesquites grow a bean like gizzie which are the seeds. Is that why they are legumes? Guess the prairie dogs ate them? Besides all that,I'm not even sure how you pronounce legume so if I ever used that word in a conversation,I'd have to just write it down. Besides the mesquites wiping out the water,the cedars do the same---and in some areas they even seem to wipe out the mesquites. What is needed to eat the cedar? Better not ask,they imported nutria here to eat the vegetation out of the lakes--now we have nutria problem. Now I did hear one theory that a guy didn't believe mesquite trees are sucking up all the water. His theory was that grass grows all the way to a mesquite tree so there must be water?????

[wills]

Horses and cattle like to eat mesquite beans because they are sweet; if they eat to many they can become impacted and die. I read somewhere the cattle drives contributed to the spread of the mesquite, moving large numbers of cattle from South Texas toward the north, spreading the undigested beans in the manure.

Historically, as I understand, mesquites and cedar were also kept in check by fires, both naturally occurring and set by Indians. As the Anglo culture took over fires were not encouraged and eventually suppressed, enabling the mesquite to proliferate.

Now, around the Peoples Republic of Travis County, the cedars are the habitat of some endangered black capped verieos and golden cheeked warblers.

[carpetman]

Wills in Idaho use to pick wild asparagus along fence lines. I suspect it was deposited there well fertilized by birds. Reason I think this is I have not seen cattle and horses perch on fences,but spreading mesquites like you described makes sense. Was probably ilegal immigrating cattle and horses and maybe even coyotes is how Texas got them from Mexico. Now you don't reckon George Bush heard we needed fires to control mesquite and cedar and imported fire ants when he was govenor?

[drinks]

A very large family found all over the warmer parts of the world, the Acacia group of trees are found all over the south, Locust, Acacia, Retama, Coral Bean, Ebony Ape's Earrings, yes that is the correct name for the Ebony tree of south Texas, beans and field peas such as pintos and blackeyes, sensitive plant, most of the short thorny brush in Texas and peanuts are all Legumes.
The Ashe Juniper, aka Mountain Cedar is a bad water waster, Tamarix, Salt Cedar is another name ,is really bad too.
The State claims 40% of the water of the Pecos is taken by Tamarix.
The prairie dog is what is called a keystone member of the community, it provided homes for a number of furred, feathered and scaley things, the holes trapped much of the rain so it soaked in rather than running off, the dogs kept trees out by eating the sprouts, kept the grass renewed by removing the old tough parts and provided a lot of tasty meals for predators.
Everywhere the prairie dog has been eradicated, the prairie has turned into dry brushland.
The Nature Conservancy, the only group I support has had a 5 year program in Mexico of protecting and expanding Prairie Dog colonies, where the dogs are, the place is still prairie, next places over , without Prairie Dogs are rapidly becoming brasada, thorn jungle.
I have no problem with shooting Prairie Dogs, but I do feel they should be used, be protected with seasons and limits and outlaw all poisoning.
Sorry for the long post, I am not only a conservative, but a conservationist, to me that means taking what you use and not wasteing.

[carpetman]

drinks---Thanks for the enlightenment on prarie dogs--I always just thought they ruined the land with all the holes. Now if you tell me rattlesnakes are beneficial because of all the rodents they kill--sorry---I'll buy traps.

[waksupi]

Don, take a close look at the Nature Conservancy. Who donates, who they give money to, what they spend money on, and what happens to land they get. I know of a couple places they "saved", only to have administrator types build large homes on the tracts.
Always follow the money. Some groups aren't always what they appear to be on the surface.

[Slowpoke]

PL;
150 years ago, before the prairie dogs were poisoned out and the aquifers were pumped dry, the grass was 3-4' high, springs were all over the place and there was no mesquite, a legume from Mexico that destroys the land and water table, the prairie dogs kept it out, afer the prairie dogs went, the mesquite took over, now it only gets 8-12' high out there, when in other parts of Texas it gets to be 60 ' and 3' on the stump.

Do you really believe that?

The Mesquite was always there, but only along the river beds, the mesquite spread or took over as you say because of one reason and one reason only COWS. Mesquite only gets stunted for two reasons, lack of water and cold temperatures.

This spreading of the Mesquite is pretty well documented thru out the SW, even in areas that never had sage rats.

I have seen historic photo's of land that was used for hay fields in the 1800's, today it is a Mesquite forest, why? Open range cattle.

good luck

[drinks]

If you can find reprints of Mueller's journals of Texas botany survey of about 1830, the only report of mesquite in Texas was of Honey Mesquite in the lower Neches region and it was attributed to Spanish cattle.
The Bison would have spread the mesquite as readily as cattle, if the mesquite had been here all along.
In my opinion, the Nature Conservancy has about a 75% good move rating, a lot of land in Texas has been saved from fragmentation and development by the conservation easements the Conservancy buys, the property remains with the original owner, but cannot be divided or developed, but can still be used for agriculture and hunting.

[Slowpoke]

If you can find reprints of Mueller's journals of Texas botany survey of about 1830, the only report of mesquite in Texas was of Honey Mesquite in the lower Neches region and it was attributed to Spanish cattle.
The Bison would have spread the mesquite as readily as cattle, if the mesquite had been here all along.
In my opinion, the Nature Conservancy has about a 75% good move rating, a lot of land in Texas has been saved from fragmentation and development by the conservation easements the Conservancy buys, the property remains with the original owner, but cannot be divided or developed, but can still be used for agriculture and hunting.

Another couple of good read's are the Changing MIle (1965) and The Changing Mile Revisited published by the University Of Arizona press in 2003. An ecological study of vegetation change with time in an arid and semi-arid region.

Both books use the technique of "repeat photography" . You can view landscape photo's taken from the same location's starting in the 1880's thru the 1990's

[Nrut]

Hi piglead.......I'd like to hear more about the rifles and ammo that you use in pursuit of Roos, Camels and what ever else you shoot in your animal control activities...Sounds like you have the perfect job for testing different cal. and bullets...you said that Roo meat is used for human comsumption... what does it taste like?...and Camel meat I suppose is eaten also?....I once attended a Mexican style Pit BBQ while living in Arizona years ago and was served Burro meat...better than the beef and goat meat served and I like both of them...cheers mic

[Piglead]

Hi piglead.......I'd like to hear more about the rifles and ammo that you use in pursuit of Roos, Camels and what ever else you shoot in your animal control activities...Sounds like you have the perfect job for testing different cal. and bullets...you said that Roo meat is used for human comsumption... what does it taste like?...and Camel meat I suppose is eaten also?....I once attended a Mexican style Pit BBQ while living in Arizona years ago and was served Burro meat...better than the beef and goat meat served and I like both of them...cheers mic

G'day .Over the years I have used a number of Rifle bullet combos at work .As this is all I do for a living .It has been said that The Ph in aus is the last of the traditional Pro Hunter's in the world .As opposed to Guides ect We make our lively hood ,from the Game that we cull! I have just gone into a semi retirement .Bought on by the Gov,interfering with the industry & the fact that the Roo Shooting industry ! Altough worth millions of dollars a year is being over regulated & not governed by Practicality!
I started shooting Rabbits years ago & the primary weapon was the humble .22lr (as we had to take head shots & were paid by the pair) From there I progressed to Roos .At that time the 25-303 with a 85gn proj was the weapon of choice by nearly every shooter!It was a Pet food only industry only in those days ,22lr were used for head shots out to about 75yds! Roo meat is hard to discribe in taste (unless it's boiled & then trust me it takes 6mths to get the taste out of your mouth & you never forget it! :shock: )
It's classed as a goumea dish these days so .Only Neck shots are used
As If a Brain shot is used the Roo tends to do a back filp which breacks the tail thereby brusing the meat around the rump! Which causes it to be down graded to pet food & then the Proccesor downs the price accordingly!Most shooters use .223's these days with 52-53 gn hollow points Max Range of 180yds. Some of the younger blokes are going back to the 22-250 & reckon their shooting over longer ranges ???? If they are good luck to em ! There was a time that we went through a stage that there were 6mm/243's ,257 & even a couple hardey souls using 270's (the meat damage has to be seen to be beilived! :shock: )In the days of the Pet food industry in the north.We hunted Water buff & the prefered weapon by the contractors was the .303 (cheap milsurp ammo & shooters were expendable ) Most of us went over to the 375H&H & .458WIN mag (I even played with a 450/577)It was at this time I discovered the 45-70 & casting ! Camels were also taken for pet meat as were donkeys anything from the 6mm class with 90+ gns were sutible for this task .I always prefered the lee enfield due to shere magizine capasity! Camels are now also taken for human consumption & it tastes some where between Lamb & beef depending on the age of the animal taken !
There will be a Gov cull soon as the camel numbers are out of control as Pigs & Goats were some years ago !I have been approched about tendering for a position on a section of country but as I was nearly killed by a camel about 4mths ago My wife is rather hesitent!

I hope this explains afew things & sorry to be so long winded Dave

[Nrut]

Certainly don't be sorry for being long winded Dave....The last PH's we had here in North Amer. died out with the Buffalo Hunters in the 1800's ..there may have been some minor meat hunting since and there are still people employed in predator control, but not many....Speaking of predators what is the largest spieces that you have in Austraila??.. I live in the central part of B.C. in western canada and wolves use to raise hell with my dads cattle herd esp. the calves in the spring (and bears in the summer)...With all the feral camels,goats,pigs,donkeys,etc that you have there it sounds like ther aren't many predators to keep the numbers down....After your goverment regulates the PH's out of business they (the gov.) might want to import some canadian wolves like they did down in the states......I hear the ranchers in the area where the wolves where turned lose are all happy about that!!....
As far as the 45-70 goes for killing Water Buff what type of rifle did you use and please tell us the particulars about your favorite cast bullet (design,wt., alloy, and hardness, etc.)........please forgive my long winded questions but I find your part of the world and what you do for a living fascinating....and I'm sure many others here feel the same.....cheers mic

[9.3X62AL]

Ditto to all that Nrut said--let's hear some more, Piglead!

ANY TIME government is allowed to regulate just about anything, there are side effects and unintended outcomes that dilute or reverse all the positives intended by the initial effort. I'm not too sure that private/corporate efforts are a whole lot better, though. It's amazing how well that systems left alone to self-regulate can operate, although it is contrary to the nature of the leadership of both government and industry to allow such natural progressions to continue unimpeded by their dubious monkey-wrenchings.

[drinks]

I would expect pore ol Canadian wolves to start to try to swim back after a few weeks in northern OZ, might do better to try some of the Mexican sub-species still found in Chihuahua and Sonora, more adapted to the heat.

[grumble]

I would expect pore ol Canadian wolves to start to try to swim back after a few weeks in northern OZ, might do better to try some of the Mexican sub-species still found in Chihuahua and Sonora, more adapted to the heat.

The Land Of Oz is welcome to ALL the Mexican Grey Wolves we have here in W New Mexico and E Arizona. We're through with them, and they can have them for the cost of shipping if, and only if, they take their Fish and Game keepers too.

When the wolf reintroduction program first started here, I wrote to our Senator Domenici telling him that we should revise the program. We'd take one breeding pair of New York drug dealers for every breeding pair of wolves they "reintroduced" into Central Park. After a year, we could check survival rates. He didn't take me up on the idea, but I have heard jokes about it.

Wolves should do wonders for the Aussie dingos, I'd think.

[waksupi]

"......I hear the ranchers in the area where the wolves where turned lose are all happy about that!!...."


Don't get me started!

[Nrut]

I know what you mean waksupi....It's a helpless feeling when you check the calf pens in the morning and when you get there you see wolf tracks in the snow all over the place.....did manage to call some and ambush some others over the few years I calved out for my dad...but that was a drop in the bucket.... when you see a pack of 14 and you only get one..mic

[Piglead]

Gent's I'm happy to report that,the largest preditor we have in OZ is the dingo (wild dog ) Now at the risk of upsetting the Scienctists over here! I do not belive there is such a thing as a Pure dingo left in main land OZ! Yes I will conceed that they may have the charotiristics of a dingo (ie they don't bark & size, colour, Skelton shape! But I think if the DNA is taken! Most of the evidense will point to inbreeding) The Dingo /dog problem has been addressed over the years via baiting ,trapping & shooting programs! This includes a fence 1000's of miles long ! Comencing on the South Australian / Western austrailian border. SA
NT across to New south wales (where the fence ends in the middle of now were)
For many years the dog fence was manned by Doggers every 20or so miles ! These men lived in isolation & were issued with Cycles( push bikes ) to patrol their section of the fence & carried water & tools to repair the fence ! Now when one stops to consider the fact that a fair amount of the fence runs through desert ! They were hardy workers indeed! Later they were issued horses& in some cases camels ! Much later in the Gov cut backs 4x4s were issued & manning was cut right back !I worked asection of the Fence in the mid 70's for about 9mths on contract & found it to be monotunis & boring ! But such was the nature of the work ! It is still illegal to go near the fence,without the correct perimts! There was a time when Gov bounties were paid for Dog scalps ,But these days most Properties employ their own Doggers ,with a couple of states still employing their own ! I do some contract work when there is nothing else avalible!
The Old expresstion for a Dogger was a "Dog Stiffener" & the joke was that you were in the hair & skin industry!I once got into a world of **** .When asked at a party of city folk of higher standing ,what I did for a living ?To avoid embarrisment to all concerened ! I replied that I was in the Hair & skin Game......The person comented to the Host (a close friend of mine )That I seemed a "little Rough to be a Beautcion" My host quietly explained what I had ment !.......I got ignored for the rest of the everning.......... [smilie=w:
My first 45-70 was a converted Martini henrey .But it was soon replaced by a Marlin 1895! Of which was the first of 3 (I'm still using the 3rd)
My fave Bullet weight was a 405gn FN & still is although I use a CBE mould now that throws what the manufacturer calls the don't argue with this (As most game don't) I used to use straight lino type! But as it's getting harder to find these days ! I go to the local range (which is on our property ) & reclaim the lead .Most shooters I have met don't see the sence in casting (the fools) So The stuff I reclaim is of a fairly good quaulity ,but to make sure I mix 9lbs of reclaim to 1lbs of 50/50 soldier & am casting a fairly hard bullet.Mind you I'm plannig on water quenching them!
Dave

[Slowpoke]

[QUOTE=Piglead]Gent's I'm happy to report that,the largest preditor we have in OZ is the dingo (wild dog )

Howdy Piglead

What did you poke the Camel with that about stomped you?

How does it work when you shoot for pet food? Do you do everything like shoot ,dress transport? Refrigerated trucks? Dry the meat and then ship? I would think the logistics would be a nightmare.

Do you get paid by the pound or the head?

Do they do any shooting or culling down under from helicopters or airplanes? They do in states ever now and again for coyotes, pretty effective. Pilot, shooter and a guy on the ground with a couple dogs mopping up.

How about night time shooting?

Sorry for all the questions, but it sounds pretty interesting to me.

Good luck

[carpetman]

Piglead---Your observation that due to crossbreeding pure dingoes no longer exist brings up some questions I have of a similar situation. How do ducks stay pure? We have a spot on the river here where there are tame type ducks and some mallards have taken up permanent residence and there are all kinds of signs of crossbreeding. How do ducks remain pure in the wild? Same with coyotes,they'll interbreed with dogs,how do they remain pure? Now your camels,except for maybe possums,they have to be about the ugliest animal alive. It would surely help their looks if they bred with anything except maybe a possom or Tazmanian devil. Keep those Australian stories coming mate,I enjoy them.

[Piglead]

Thanx for your questions Gents !

Well first up the camel incident was my own stupidity ! We tend to work alone ! I was doing a spot of Camel work as my quota For Roos hasd been cut.due to the dought we are suffering (Better to let roos starve & die of thirst than cull increased numbers or so the Boffins tel us [smilie=b: ) I was having a really good day I had got in to an area that had not been shot for years & the Cmels were'nt up to speed on what a Man or vehicle ment!!!I had clobbered 35& the dollar sighs were all that could be seen in my eyes! Num 36 went down with out a whisper ( too bloody easy ) I of course had got to complacent! Instead of approching the beast from the rear or it's back I just wandered up to throw the chain around it's rear legs .It picked this presise moment to come back to life with the greatest head ache in the universe ! & Of course it was not a happy camper!I was kicked in the side (which broke several ribs & then as it go to it's feet it realized wot the cause of it's discomfort had been & decided to return the favor in kind! Now if you ever look art a camels chest there is a thick pad & they like to kneel & crush things under that pad ! (mainly people) So my second shot was fired from the ground at a range of about 2feet ! I was using the Mk1 .303 with 215 gn bullets (cast) the first shot had missed the spine only nicking it & stunning the beast !The neck shot I have found to be te most effective shot over the years!But in this case I had done all the things that I have always told New blokes not to ! I then had to drive over 100mls across country to get medical attention (not plesant)
Animals taken ie Roos & camel are field dressed by the shooter ! Head lower legs removed Gut (leaving Liver ,kidneys,heart& lungs in place for health checks) They are then taken to a large Chiller (size of Semi trailer) These are emptied weekly & the meat is taken to a processing plant ! The Prices paid are by the kg (2.2lbs) Ranging from 46-76cents per kg for Roo &25cents a kg for camel! But the consumer is paying 13.00 a kg for the packaged product [smilie=b: [smilie=b: ! The shooter must cover all of his running costs& Licenses(750pa for ROOs)
All Roo harvesting is done at night due to the nature of the animal & with the exception of foxes all other animals are normaly shot in daylight hours! Though there are times that we work around the clock! Remembering that We are not sports men But this is our lively hood!Much like working in a giant slaughter house!
Culling Opps are carried out by Chopper these days & then we get paid by the head ! Or in some cases the Gov to save money lets the Sporting hunters ass bring hunters in to cull the area esp things like goats !
The only animals (apart from native species one has to have the apropriate licenses to hunt Roos) that have a season in Australia are Ducks & deer in the eastern states (In SA there is no season for Deer You see one You clobber it on the proviso it ai'nt on a deer farm!!!! But I've always maintained the best venison & the easyest venison comes from ........Oh look do'nt worry about it ! ) So we compete with sporting shooters for a living sometimes but there is no friction between us as we're not going to deny a Bloke a feed ! Unless they are illegal shooters! Then we put em in at a wink!

Dave