Mini-lathe questions.

[Any Cal.]

Well, I had an Atlas 8?x36, but sold it because I wasn't going o have enough room for it in the forseeable future,(and because I made $$$ on the deal...), but I would still like to get a lathe. It is looking like a mini-lathe is the only real choice, and I have read about them until my eyes burn. I have a few questions for people who know anything about lathes.

How important is threading ability, vs taps and dies? I already have decent t&d sets.

If the lathe will mostly be used for small projects, how important is 12"-16" between centers vs 10"? Worth twice the cost?

It looks like the choices that are viable are a Taig 4-6x10, Grizzly 7x12, and if I save for another 6months, a Lathemaster 7x16. The Taig is available with powerfeed, but no threading, the Grizzly has both but is generally considered lesser quality, the Lathemaster is at least twice the cost of either of the first two, but looks to be a better quality and larger version of the Grizzly and has a 3/4" spindle bore along with metal gearing and some included accessories. Are any of them an obviously good or bad choice? I am thinking that the less expensive machines would allow me to put more into tooling, and if I needed more lathe in the future I could just buy a bigger on and have two. Any voices of experience?

Projects would be a compensator or two, some centers and parts for a wood lathe, odd tools or parts for various auto repairs. Maybe a d-bit or 3 and a try at a mold or sizing die.




.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Any Cal virtually no mini lathe has threading capibilities simply because they dont have enough power to do it.

When you consider the biggest thread you'd ever do on a machine that size might be a 1/4-20 there is no reason not to do it with a tap or die.

If you really want a small lathe with threading then look for a Myford. They are really nice and are the mainstay of Live steam guys.

Look here: http://www.myford.co.uk/

or here is a pic of a Myford Super 7B with threading for sale on Ebay UK http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Myford-Super-7-B-Complete-With-Accessories-/271225622657.

I have to tell you for what you want to do with the machine you would be better off finding a college course and using their machienry. After using real machines you would have a better idea of what you would really need to do what you want.

Just blindly buying a machine that you don't know how to use is a waste of money. Once you get a little experience under your belt you'll understand what I'm talking about.

Randy

[Beecher Tool]

The real minimum size on a lathe to be functional for gun related use is a 13x40 preferably with a gear head....you can get a good product from Grizzly starting around $4K.

[Dutchman]

When I was looking at buying a second small lathe this one came out on top in owner feeback:

Lathemaster 8x14". Compare the weight of the various small lathes. This dude is heavy and heavy is a good thing.
http://www.lathemaster.com/LATHEMASTER8x14Lathe.htm

I own a Birmingham 12x36. Not my first lathe. Been happy with it. Bought it new in 2005.

It cost more now..
http://www.billstoolcrib.com/Lathbir1236.htm

I have a loose rule for threading. Up to 1/2" I use dies. Over 1/2" I single-point thread on the lathe. Threading is extremely important on the lathe. It's one of the primary uses of a thread cutting lathe... cutting thread. Any kind of thread.

Buy the better/bigger lathe now. Don't go with bigger later. Do it right the first time. Your current logic will betray you down the road...

Dutch

[Any Cal.]

I can't get the big one now, I have no place to put it. Also, $$$ is higher for the bigger tools, so I cannot justify it. I have in my head that a small lathe will let me build things that will fit in a soda can, and teach skills that will be useful on the off-chance I ever have a use or need for a larger tool. I don't miss the Atlas in the least, just because I didn't have the room or the need for it.

I guess my question as to the importance of threading was answered, and it sounds as if the Lathemaster is sort of a red-headed stepchild, more $$$ but still not enough size for real work. Leaning strongly toward the Taig for making bushings or small tooling, with a milling attachment for doing keyways. I wouldn't be doing enough rifle barrels or drive-lines to justify the $$ and space for a larger machine.

Not trying to sound ignorant or contradict the voice of experience, just trying to make sure it is applicable to my situation. The college course isn't a bad idea, but probably won't happen on my schedule and budget. Will take another look at it, though. I do have a 30+yr machinist that will teach me as long as I feed him and buy his beer...

I have tools and experience for some other trades, the lathe would be more of a hobby or accessory to something else, rather than the centerpiece of a trade or hobby.

[Buckshot]

.............If you're read all the info on the net about the little 7" machines you should have a pretty decent education on their capabilities, limitations and issues. I've seen some fairly fancy things done with them. The only ones I've ever seen up close are those sold by Harbor Freight, as there is a store close by. Most of the 7" lathes come out of one factory (Sieg) in China. I own no Grizzly machines, but from reading I understand that they have their own inspectors on site, and their own accuracy specs. Don't know if this also holds true for the 7" lathes (or other similar small power equipment.

If I were to buy one I'd buy from a reputable company first of all. Secondly their warranty would be important along with a reputation for customer service. In addition how easy are parts to obtain. Finally if you received a real stinker what would they require you to do? Running currently in the HSM magazine is a series of articles dealing with a 7" lathe, (improvements, fixes, etc). I don't recall the name on the lathe used for the article (Harbor Freight, Grizzly, Cummins?) but one thing that sticks in my head was the author found out that his carriage was only in 30% contact with the lathe bed. No mention about attempting contact with the outfit it was purchased from. He scraped the carriage in to a much larger contact area himself.

.............Buckshot

[W.R.Buchanan]

Any Cal: Every reason you give for not being able to buy a larger machine are also valid reasons for not buying a small one either.

Get some experience first,,, then look for a machine. By then,, you might have a use for one, you might have a place for one , and you might be able to afford one.

Go back to post #2 and read the last two paragraphs over and over until you understand what I am trying to tell you. Please acknowledge!

I have owned a real machine shop for nearly 30 years. I have a pretty good idea from where I speak.

Dutch said "do it right the first time." I can't agree more, but since you won't know what is right, until you get some experience, you are doomed to failure if you persue your current course. (what ever that may be?)

WE don't want that for you!

Getting some experience in a school is much cheaper than

"listen to me now, but don't understand what I say until later."

Randy

[Jeff Michel]

You already received all the good advice you need to go forward. Think long and hard as to what you're going to do with this lathe. Tastes and interests change over the years. You might be solely interested in firearms today, in ten years, it could be a model locomotive or a clock. The point is, if you buy with haste now to to scratch an itch you may suffer from buyer's remorse later. If you are concerned with tooling costs.... you will find it a particularly unsatisfying experience to re-tool a second lathe. Don't convince yourself that resale in much of an option, most used equipment is sold at close to scrap weight. Yes, I know there are exceptions but not many. I buy tooling by the pound, usually less than 3.00. Save your money, take the classes, then make your selection. You can make small things on a big lathe but it's tough to make big things on a small lathe. Good luck with this, if you do it properly, you will enjoy your acquisition much more because you know what to expect from a particular piece of equipment.
Jeff Michel

[Any Cal.]

Randy, I am paying attention. I checked for machinist courses in my area, but there are none that I can find. I do appreciate your trying to help me get started on a good tool.

As far as wasting money though, whatever I buy should be worth 75% of what I pay for it after I am through as long as I don't break it, so I don't stand to lose large amounts. I am pretty set on getting a small lathe, just trying to understand what features are most important. If I lose $200 and some time on this, so be it. I made $700+ when I sold the Atlas and learned a lot just getting it tuned up and cleaned up.

Right now I have $75 worth of tooling that I need for a wood lathe, so it makes perfect sense in my mind to spend 10x that on a tool to make it...:-) Plus, any time I spend piddling around on a machine is time I didn't spend on a forum, so that is worth something too.:-)

I did find out that a headstock with a 1.38" spindle bore is available for the Taig, as well as beds up to 48", FWIW.

[oldred]

I was SURE the little Jet 9x20 was all the lathe I would need for my purposes, within 6 months I was shopping for a new lathe! Again I was sure a 12x36 would meet my needs but I paid the extra money for a 14x40 after thinking about what I had already been through with my little 9x20 and it turns out that was a good decision, I think even the 12x36 would have been too small. I am not saying you will need a 14x40 or even a 12x36 but for sure there will be unforeseen projects come up that will require a bigger machine with more capabilities, this is one hobby that just keeps growing!

[texassako]

I have the HF 7x10 and it is pretty much a toy. I needed something that could be put on a shelf out of the way, and realized I would have a lot of limitations. I have not used it much until recently, but pretty much similar items to your list. Random bits for an old Kawasaki KZ750, my truck, and sawmill; pulleys for some of my old woodworking machines; and some reloading items like M die type expanders for odd calibers and converting Lee collet dies for multicaliber use. I have not tried threading on it.

[bhop]

check out littlemachineshop.com they have great customer service. basically most of the minilathes that small (hf, grizzly, lms) are all the same just different paint. be prepared to do quite a few mods/adjustments to get it lined out. i recently visited a friend who spent alot (in my eyes) and when i showed up he had a pile of boxes filled with stuff he didnt know how to use. i got him lined out and fairly confident although i still get those "im stuck" phone calls lol. he bought all the dvds too and before i left he was single point threading od and id on his mini. i know he does 3/4-24 or whatever the thread is on a barrel of an ar-10. But i also agree with all the statements made above

[bhop]

check these out:
http://www.varmintal.com/alath.htm
http://www.mini-lathe.com/
http://tool20895.homestead.com/jose7x10taig.html

[cheese1566]

A few years back I was in the same boat. I wanted a lathe to learn another skill and had absolutely no experience in machining except for a hand file and a drill press.

I educated myself on mini-lathes and after research, I chose a Grizzly based on what I wanted, expected for my own projects and learning, and COST. I just wanted a unit for learning and small tinkering. I do have an interest in gunsmithing, but that may come in my second career after schooling...then I will get a big unit.
Anyways, I chose a Grizzly, but it was backordered at the time for 4-6 months. My father talked me into getting the G0602 for more money but a substantial size larger (10x22" with a 1" spindle bore.) It may not have all the features of an expensive gunsmithing or old American lathe, but it is new and has everything I will ever need (for the time being anyways!) Even though it is foreign made, I am pretty confident in getting some support from Grizzly or other G0602 owners if the need arises.

I am now happy I ordered what I did as I am making some dies and doing 7/8"-14 threading on it.

Long story short, buy the biggest machine you can afford.

[Any Cal.]

So obviously bigger is better. What are the trade-offs for the small size? Speed? Depth of cut? Everything?

I assume that someone who knew what they were doing could use either machine within the size limitations of the part. Would it take more time on the smaller machine? If Iwanted to make a small aluminum container 3/4 x 3", what would make me glad that I had a larger machine to build it on? What if it was a DC aluminum mold? Or is the larger machine for projects I don't have planned yet?

[bhop]

stay clear of the milling attachment from LMS, if its something you want, build one yourself. theirs creates too much chatter. IMO its way to top heavy

[R.M.]

So obviously bigger is better. What are the trade-offs for the small size? Speed? Depth of cut? Everything?

I assume that someone who knew what they were doing could use either machine within the size limitations of the part. Would it take more time on the smaller machine? If Iwanted to make a small aluminum container 3/4 x 3", what would make me glad that I had a larger machine to build it on? What if it was a DC aluminum mold? Or is the larger machine for projects I don't have planned yet?

It's hard to explain, but when you've worked on full sized machines, the mini's just don't cut it. I've always prided myself on how I managed to do jobs that stretch the machine's limits, but the small machines just don't cut it for me.

[W.R.Buchanan]

AnyCal: the reason why bigger is better is one thing only. Rigidity,,, period. Low resenence frequency is the key and weight delivers the lowest resenence.. This is why they use cast Iron for most machine tools. Some even have the beds filled with cement.

Resenence Frequency is the vibration that is generated when you toonce something. You may not be able to hear it always, but it is there, and everything has one. Obviously some are audible and some are not. Elephants and Whales communicate over long distances by using very low frequency noise most of us can't hear.

If you toonce a glass it will vibrate and generate noise. That noise is quantifiable as so many cycles per second,(frequency) and amplitude, (loudness). Middle C on a Piano is 400 CPS. With the glass, when it is sittting there vibrating, it is making noise. If you duplicate that frequency and amplify it enough the glass will shatter. Everyone has seen this on TV or somewhere. The resenence frequency,,, if amplified enough will destroy anything simply because it vibrates the thing apart by using it's resenence frequency against it.

When machining a part IE; removing material from that part, the very action of cutting generates vibration. If those vibrations become too intense and the machine can no longer absorb it, then chatter and other undesirable things happen. However it is the resenence frequency of the part that is being approached or in severe cases duplicated, that causes the part to vibrate. The harder you push it the harder it will vibrate. When the frequency approaches that of the machine then the machine itself amplyfies it, and it becomes much worse.

I have seen large 25 ton oil field lathes literally walking across the floor when some Yahoo tried to take too heavy a cut or used a tool that was not rigid enough to take the cut in the first place. In everycase the frequency of the machine and the frequency of the part have been achieved and the amplitude has become sufficient enough to make the whole mess vibrate like helP. Bigger machines just need bigger cuts to get there.

The standard action to resolve chatter is to change the speed or the feed or both. IE; to make the cut generate another frequency that is different than the resenence frequency of the part or the machine.

Most frequencies that are generated by machining operations are of a relatively mid to high range. Since the machine is made from something heavy it will have a much lower resenence frequency. The lighter the machine the higher the RF and the easier it is to generate.

This is why light machines generally don't deliver good finishes on parts, and also why heavier cuts can't be done. The harder you push the machine the closer you drive it to it's resinence frequency, and the closer it comes to generating chatter. If you push it too hard something will break!

IF you start into a cut and you get chatter then you must start over at a much slower speed and get under the chatter and remove it before you have any chance of generating an acceptable finish on your part. Chatter is self sustaining simply because you are in a frequency range that the machine can not absorb. IF you could measure the distance between the chattermarks and establish what the surface feet per second is you would be able to define exactly what the frequency of that part is.

Since heavier machines have a lower resinence frequency they are less suseptable to this,,, However they are not exempt.

With the class of machinery you are looking at this will be an up hill fight, and the smaller the machine the likelyhood of this rises Exponentially. IE; the smaller the machine, the faster it will vibrate and match the frequency of the cut you are taking.

Other design features of the machine can influence this as well. The higher the spindle is from the bed the less rigid the machine is. Same with the tool's position, the higher it is, the less rigid the machine is. The "Smithy" combination machine is a classic example of this phenomenon.. The machine was designed to do both turning and milling operations,,,and to be inexpensive. They are very limited as to what you can do with one and generally a PITA to get good results from. They are not very rigid and as a result don't do anything well. They are cheap and can do some work so they are a salable item. They are just very limited..

Don't get me wrong, small machines do have their place. That place is making "small parts" and by small I mean model airplane engine sized parts. The Taig machines are more than suitable for this kind of work and they are made well and well designed. They also have good solid dovetail beds and adjustable gibs to take up the slop, but they also are limited to small capacities. Just because a machine has a 9" swing doesn't mean you can put a 9" billet of steel (or anything else) in the chuck and start ripping material away. You might be able to chuck up a 9" piece of aluminum but you aren't going to do much to it, and for all of the reasons listed above.

Realistically with a machine like a Taig Lathe your practical limit is going to be around 1" in Aluminum and that will be limited to very light cuts like .020 per pass. You can put a larger piece in the chuck but you can't expect to rip a big cut off it, the bigger the piece the smaller the cut has to be.

There are really nice small lathes as well. The Levin Lathe is a great piece of equipment. They are not cheap either, expect to pay $5000+ for a decent used one. And then there is the Schaublin lathes, made in Switzerland and designed for making really nice small parts for like Rolex watches. I can't afford one! These are 70MM (2.75") swing lathes powered by a 1HP motor and look like a miniture Hardinge DSM59. They are mounted to cast iron bases and weigh about 900 lbs. They are sweet machines to operate and I have used them extensively while working at Gaiser Tool Co (now Coors-Tek). They run in the $30-40K range! Nothing about them is cheap or for that matter even affordable for all but the most affluent of companies. You have got to have the right kind of work to put on them for them to pay for themselves. They are too expensive to sit idle.

The largest parts we made were .0622-.0624 in dia, and .375-.437 long!

So we had 900lb machines making parts that weighed maybe 15-25 grains! As opposed to having a 200lb machine trying to make a 5 pound part. You should be able to see the difference by now.

The Schaublin can absorb literally thousands of times more vibration than it can generate.

AS far as operation,,,

The only way to learn this stuff is by doing, but a little book work is also kind of manditory, as is some supervision. Nobody was born knowing how to do this stuff. It is all trial and error. Learning what feeds and speeds different tools can endure is a key part of the equation. This must be taught and practiced. I still use speeds for different sized endmills that I learned on my first job.

However when you are learning the biggest detrement to the process is JUNKMachinery! You never know if it is you,,, or the machine.

My first job as a full time machinist was working with JUNK! for a company with no money and it was a fight every day of the week. Bosses with unrealistic ideas about what could be accomplished with their JUNK was another problem. Add to that, pushing that JUNK well past its capacity everyday was a very frustrating experience. When something came out right it was major accomplishment! Believe me!

I got ran off because I couldn't make the junk, do the work they wanted in the time which they thought it should take. Funny, since they couldn't either .

Good for me overall however.

When I went to work for Gaiser Tool Co, they are at the exact opposite end of the spectrum. They had money, they had really nice machinery, (which I took care of like it was my own). When I started using that equipment I found out really fast that my shortcomings were few, and that using good machinery resulted in nice parts. I was able to concentrate on achieving close tolerances and nice finishes instead of getting the collet to hold onto an endmill and not walk out in the middle of a cut and destroying the part.

This is why I recommend finding a place to put in some time running other peoples machines. You will learn the difference between what is a good machine and what is Krap. You will learn some basic fundimentals of how you go about making a part.

You can go ahead and buy something cheap to play with and learn a little with. In that case I'd recommend the Taig machine, since it is one of the better inexpensive small machines. You can get parts and accessories for relatively cheap, and if you want to sell it it has a good enough name to where you could put it on Ebay and probably get your money back. IN your price range and with the space you have available this is probably the best/only choice.

Better Idea is to find a school you can go to. Even if you had to drive 60 miles a night one way it would be worth it. If you really want to learn that's how you do it.

Hope this answers some of your questions .

Randy

[Any Cal.]

Wow! Thank you so much for the insight. You are starting to speak the language I understand... I very much appreciate the time you put into that response, and will work at keeping the info in my head so as to help bias the decisions I make in this area.

To all the rest as well, thank you! I posted here hoping to hear the collective experience of all, to better understand what I would be facing. Obviously, I don't know exactly at this point, but your posts definitely help me to better understand.

Still happy to hear any other input. Will shoot for the Taig, but will work at not trying to make it something it isn't.

[oldred]

Another point to remember is that you can do small parts on a big machine but you can not do big parts on a small machine, once you get into this your projects will grow in size guaranteed!

[Any Cal.]

Ok, I have been chewing on all this info, scouring the net, checking on shipping prices and lathe specs... and have it narrowed down to 3 machines of varying costs and sizes.

Taig 3.75x10 20lbs or so, 3/8" spindle bore, least expensive, easiest to store.

Big Dog 7x14 80lbs ish, 7/8" spindle bore. Nicer version of the Chinese machine.

Lathemaster 8x14, 250+lbs, 7/8" spindle bore. Nicer version of the Chinese machines.

Each lathe represents a $4-500 jump over the one above it once shipping and tooling costs are taken into consideration. Are they all small enough that there is no point in going larger, or are the jumps in price proportionate to what they might be useful for? I found a Jet 9x20 for $1500, but I think it is getting to be too large for the space I have.

[oldred]

I found a Jet 9x20 for $1500, but I think it is getting to be too large for the space I have.



Don't even consider that Jet!!!!

I bought one of the junky things several years ago from Northern tool and paid $1200 for it only to learn a few weeks later it was the same thing Harbor Freight had for on sale for $599! I have had people argue that the Jet is better, before I bought it I was told that other brands of what appeared to be the same were just cheap rip-offs of the Jet -NOT true they are the same! The Jet was no better (or worse) than the others, it just cost twice as much, I learned this "first hand" when I got the Harbor Freight version in a trade for some other items. I had both machines for a while and I now know FOR A FACT they are the same exact thing except for price and color! They were identical in appearance at that time but recently the Jet has undergone some COSMETIC changes to make it look a bit different, make no mistake, I have looked at them and under that fancier headstock cover lurks the same stinkin 9x20 lathe that can be bought a heck of a lot cheaper at several other places with Harbor Freight being the cheapest. I know from experience about the Jet and on the import lathe forums (Yahoo Groups) it is pretty much a known and accepted fact that if these small lathes look the same, any of them, then they usually are no matter who is selling them or what color they are. These companies all select a model from the same Chinese factory and that factory will paint the lot any paint scheme they request and put the company's brand name on it, an exception to the differences is that sometimes a company will specify extra tooling to be included in the package and that can account for some of the price difference but that can easily be checked in the ad description. The bottom line is when buying these Chinese machines don't be too impressed by the brand or you could do as I did and wind up paying a lot of extra money just for a useless name!

[KCSO]

I would check out the Little Machine Shops vervion as they stand behind their products and they set them up in inch and metric. If you only do small projects and are willing to work slow and careful there is no gunsmithing job you can't do within reason. You can make sizing dies and comps and such with no problem and if you make a crank adapter you can cut threads too. I still use a 1949 South Bend for my main lathe and althought the headstock opening is small it wil still work with the best of them. It has been doing gun work since it was new.

[Any Cal.]

The Big Dog is the same as TheLittleMachineShop's, but 2" longer and comes with some tooling.

[hickstick_10]

Ok, I have been chewing on all this info, scouring the net, checking on shipping prices and lathe specs... and have it narrowed down to 3 machines of varying costs and sizes.

Taig 3.75x10 20lbs or so, 3/8" spindle bore, least expensive, easiest to store.

Big Dog 7x14 80lbs ish, 7/8" spindle bore. Nicer version of the Chinese machine.

Lathemaster 8x14, 250+lbs, 7/8" spindle bore. Nicer version of the Chinese machines.

Each lathe represents a $4-500 jump over the one above it once shipping and tooling costs are taken into consideration. Are they all small enough that there is no point in going larger, or are the jumps in price proportionate to what they might be useful for? I found a Jet 9x20 for $1500, but I think it is getting to be too large for the space I have.

The taig has a limited use, I have one and its sat on a shelf for years..

The 7 x 14 is getting more and more after market goodies for them, but same deal very tiny machine, you will outgrow it shortly. Also it has no quickchange gear box, you WILL want this eventually.

The lathemaster is larger and more expensive, and now your in the price range of a good quality used American, Asian or European machine. Again it has no quick change gear box. Juggling gears to change feeds and setting up for threading gets old very fast. Also the feeds and threads available for the stock lathemaster is limited to 12, which is quite low. The footprint for this machine is very close to my smaller lathe which is identical to this one (although mine is a little more dirty!!)

75274
Depending on what state your in you may have a hard time finding a used machine, and it may be worth your while to take a short road trip to get a deal on a used one. Take your time and be patient, something nice will come along. A nice machine really enhances your enjoyment of the projects, keep this in mind.

Machining has been my only job for more years then I care to think, working in jobbing and repair shops Ive played with alot of lathes (from the sublime Hardinge HLVH to the current work pig Stanko with a 6 foot diameter chuck) and repaired a few. You really cant go wrong with a good quality used small machine (Myford, Boxford, Southbend, Logan,Clausing to name a few) , most everything can be fixed on them fairly simply (except the bed) and they were built for a more discerning customer back then, they really are a pleasure to use. The Asians can make good machines, but the good ones are priced beyond most hobbiests budget. The chinese machines are entirely servicable and will get the job done, but beleive me if you are turning parts for 10 hours a day and have projects on the burner when you get home, a machine thats nice to look at, operate and good ergonomics sure makes a difference for getting a man motivated to make something.

FYI you will reach a point where it becomes difficult to machine small parts on a larger machine so choose carefully.

And for my last two bits, for me to purchase a machine without a quick change gear box, it would have to be immaculate and one heck of a good deal. To put it in perspective, if I had a choice between two used lathes of equal quality I would only consider the non quick change if it was 1/3rd the price (or less) of the quick change machine.

[NoZombies]

A few years ago I picked up a small lathe from HF when it was on super clearance, and I had a 20% off coupon. I ended up walking out of the store with it for less than $200. I picked up various tooling for it, and used it for quite a while to do small things.

It is very limited in it's capacity, both for size of work and depth of cut. Threading can be done, but is more complicated than it is on a larger machine, especially a larger machine with a QC gearbox. The machine lacks rigidity, and therefore is very difficult to do precise work on.

All that said, I managed to use the little lathe to do some useful things. I made reloading dies, bullet molds, swaging dies, sizing dies and various tooling for other things. The key to getting good results is to go slowly and take light cuts.

I eventually upgraded to a leblonde lathe, and the precision, speed and power was an absolute eye opener. With the leblonde, I could do in a single cut what would have taken me a dozen passes with the little lathe. I could do real work on things like barrels and axle shafts.

I would recommend that you get the largest lathe you can fit into the space you have for it, and consider making more space for it. But if one of the mini lathes is all you can justify, it can still be used for some projects, but has many limitations.

[NoZombies]

A few years ago I picked up a small lathe from HF when it was on super clearance, and I had a 20% off coupon. I ended up walking out of the store with it for less than $200. I picked up various tooling for it, and used it for quite a while to do small things.

It is very limited in it's capacity, both for size of work and depth of cut. Threading can be done, but is more complicated than it is on a larger machine, especially a larger machine with a QC gearbox. The machine lacks rigidity, and therefore is very difficult to do precise work on.

All that said, I managed to use the little lathe to do some useful things. I made reloading dies, bullet molds, swaging dies, sizing dies and various tooling for other things. The key to getting good results is to go slowly and take light cuts.

I eventually upgraded to a leblonde lathe, and the precision, speed and power was an absolute eye opener. With the leblonde, I could do in a single cut what would have taken me a dozen passes with the little lathe. I could do real work on things like barrels and axle shafts.

I would recommend that you get the largest lathe you can fit into the space you have for it, and consider making more space for it. But if one of the mini lathes is all you can justify, it can still be used for some projects, but has many limitations.

[Beone]

I have had the grizzley for 8 years and like it very much. It is small but works well. I would like a larger one but can't justify it yet
Dave

[Any Cal.]

Ok, I think I am beginning to understand. The space available dictates the size of the lathe, which limits the size of the project that can be done easily. A small lathe can do projects that are larger, but they become exponentially slower and more difficult. To be able to do a decent sized project quickly and easily, you need a good sized lathe with a place to use it, or the desire to make many, many passes on a tiny lathe, which can make it less desirable to start the project in the first place.

Is this about right?

Is there a weight where you are getting into a decent machine?

Just buying the parts I wanted to make is starting to look more attractive... of course, if you wanted to get rid of that Taig you might pm me hickstick.:-) Thanks for the help everyone, it IS a big help to hear from those who know.

[hickstick_10]

No its not true, you can take pretty deep cuts with a quality small machine, but a poorly designed/built large machine will chatter and have limited cut capacity. The large Stanko lathe I use at work is an extreme example of this, namely a poorly designed compound slide (The part of the lathe that holds the cutting tool).

How well a machine handles the tool pressure of the cutting tool is more important and this does not necessarily go hand in hand with weight although expecting a machine that weighs 20 pounds to do any serious machining is wishful thinking. The lathe I pictured above weighs around 200 pounds without the stand, it works fine. The best answer I can give you is that one of the hallmarks of a GOOD machine is how well it handles its work envelope (IE, how does it handle the smallest to biggest peices that can be made on it), again using the lathe at work for an example, it will swing an 8 foot diameter peice all day with no issue, but once you start getting below a foot in diameter or have to drill small holes the slow speeds needed for heavy turning start to hamper your ability to machine smaller parts, a prime example of the "You can barely make small peices on a big machine" school of thought.

It sounds like your at the "dipping your big toe in the water stage" and if thats the case it would be a good idea to purchase the parts you want made and think about the machining again next year, most of the guys who do this for fun get as much enjoyment out of the making as they do the finished parts. I wont sell you the Taig, because it would be a waste of money for what you want to make.

[gmsharps]

I'm not seeing any comments on a sherline lathe. Are they not worth considering or they more of a hobby lathe and to small. Just asking

gmsharps

[hickstick_10]

I'm not seeing any comments on a sherline lathe. Are they not worth considering or they more of a hobby lathe and to small. Just asking

gmsharps

The Sherline and the Taig are miniature machines, and they shine their best when they are used to make very very small parts for miniature machines, jewelry, clocks.......tiny stuff. I used mine for making small bowls, chessmen and very small screws. Especially for the small screws the small machine really works well because my chucks will not close small enough to hold the small diameter material (I dont bother with collets) and the RPMs of my other lathe was to slow. Again another example of the downside of using a "big" machine to make small parts.

Once you wish to start making larger parts, anything over a couple inches in diameter out of good hard steel, you will be nibbling away at the stock at a rate where you will get frustrated. If you wish to drill holes over 1/2 of an inch in diameter, its going to be tedious.

When your feeding by hand in every direction of cutting, like on the Taig and Sherline, your hands will also get sore in very short order. Its a very unpleasant feeling hunkering over a machine for an hour and then you stop and realise you can't open your hand, the small hande wheels are the culprit for this. Machine ergonomics are very, very important.

[gmsharps]

I was hoping I had not bought into something I should never mention I have. You are correct it is for very small things and does what I need at this time. I'm still learning and maybe someday I can graduate to a larger machine.

gmsharps

[Any Cal.]

Is a 6" Atlas/Craftsman worth messing with? It is the better one, not the 109. Still a lighter machine, but maybe better? It comes w/ a 3 and 4 jaw, milling attachment, tailstock drill chuck, and some tooling. One of the earlier models. It would cost just slightly less than a new 7x14 with some tooling.

[hickstick_10]

Is a 6" Atlas/Craftsman worth messing with? It is the better one, not the 109. Still a lighter machine, but maybe better? It comes w/ a 3 and 4 jaw, milling attachment, tailstock drill chuck, and some tooling. One of the earlier models. It would cost just slightly less than a new 7x14 with some tooling.

Itl work and theres lots of parts on Ebay, but Im not sure if the change wheels are Zamak (zinc alloy) or not, Im not against the material, but I prefer hardened steel gears in a machine. I have an atlas shaper and its held up well. There are better lathes out there though. Again it has no quick change gear box, that machine would have to be close to brand new if I were to consider it for a toy.

You have a choice your going to have to make sooner or later, do you want to grab whatever lathe you can get right now? Or do you want to wait for one that suits you best?

Best bet for you in the price range of 500 to 1000 bucks is a well maintained Logan, http://www.lathes.co.uk/logan/page2.html one went for sale in my neighboorhood for 550 bucks, I would have bought it just for the fun of fixing it up, the machines dont have the brand name allure of a southbend and are truly under valued.

For consideration, I spent 1000 bucks on my small lathe with both chucks, steady rests, drills and a 5 gallon pail of cutting tools. There were other machines I looked at before but I forced myself to be patient and wait for the one I wanted. If you're patient your nest egg for a machine can grow as well.

Biggest mistake that budding machinists make when buying their first machine is buying to soon, be patient, be discerning and something always comes along.

Visit this webpage http://www.lathes.co.uk/page21.html and look at the various American brands of machines listed, there will be a few English and German names available as well in the US. After you've done some reading and research yourself, pick a type of machine you want and STICK to that choice unless something BETTER comes along.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Any Cal: Enough talk, BUY the ATLAS! if you can get it for a reasonable price. We need to get started on your actual hands on education here. Debating the fine points of every small machine tool in the world is not going to make you a machinist.

The Atlas will work for you.

I had one in my shop for years and it was a nice little machine. Light Duty but usable for many things. It belonged to my adopted son and had been his birth fathers machine. The father made O scale model train parts on it. It was the best one I have ever seen, and it had every piece of tooling known to man. He was an engineer at Delco, and was fastidious about keeping the machine nice.

IF the machine is half way clean,,, buy it. It is a great machine to learn on.

Randy

[KCSO]

I used 3 Atlas machines myself and restored 3 more for the Martin Motor Company. They are good machines and will do all the hobby work you would ever want to do. The martin machines were used for parts production from about 1950 to 1970 and made many thousnad Martin Motoer parts before needing a tune up.

[Twmaster]

Listen to what Randy has been saying. The Atlas is a fine machine for what you want to do (I used to own a 618). The Taig and Sherline machines are fantastic small lathes (I used to own a Taig). But the operative word is small.

The common 7x10,12,14 etc chinese lathes can be made to work. But they require a lot of work to get them right (I used to own an HF 7x10) (I do still own a highly modified Cummins 7x12)

The real issue with these little machines, once you get past potential quality issues, is mass. They simply do not have the mass to effectively remain rigid enough to make good or heavy cuts.

I'm not going to repeat what's already been said in this thread. Just be sure to re-read Randy's posts thoroughly.

[Any Cal.]

I am working on getting the Atlas, I have to go look at it, it is about 160 miles away. It will be a bit before it is all worked out.

I spent a lot if time looking at some of the lathes mentioned, and am beginning to understand some of what is being said. The differences start to become obvious when comparing a 10" Logan or Southbend to the smaller Atlas machines. Also, when seeing the 50ish rpm low speeds on the domestic machines compared to the 150+ on the small imports. It would be nice to have a few more feet of space and another couple thousand, but I will be happy to get started on a few small projects with whatever I can get. I need to make a few bushings, a brass comp, and some aluminum pulleys to build a knife grinder.

[Any Cal.]

Found another 6" Craftsman closer to home and less than 1/3 the price. It didn't come with nearly as much tooling, but you win some, you lose some. Paid $300 for it, vs. $950 plus travel for the other one. Needs a couple handles, center that isn't trashed for the tailstock, and an arbor for mounting a Jacobs chuck on the tailstock. It looks like the tailstock end of the ways are worn more, not sure if the bed can be flipped on this one, or if that is just where someone used it most?

http://imageshack.us/a/img707/5605/zqz3.jpg

Edit, looks like bed cannot be flipped. Went through everything with a wire brush, a rag, and some Kroil. Everything looks pretty good, carriage travels smoothly from end to end even when tightened up. Got all the rust, sawdust, and varnish out. It appears I am missing 1 stud for the cover and two set screws for the tailstock, and have two damaged handwheels, dead center, and power-feed lever. Not too bad, I think. Outside of the chuck shows no runout.

Am going to start trying to make the handles once I get some workspace opened up and the lathe set up.

[Twmaster]

Ok, that is an Atlas 618 Series 2. Made between 1974 and 1980. Probably well before 1980 as they were painted blue toward the end of the production run.

Thankfully there is some commonality between this and the older machines so parts are around. Nice score for $300.

Just an FYI, never count on the outside of the chuck for checking concentricity or runout. Always measure runout using the jaws. (as in holding work)

[Twmaster]

Here's more info on your new lathe:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/craftsman/page6.html

[Any Cal.]

Thanks. I have another project getting finished up, and some fishing to do, and I can begin working with the lathe in earnest. Still keeping my eyes open for a 4 jaw on Craigslist, don't plan on paying auction site prices.

Should I be using a 4" chuck on a 6" lathe, or would 5" be ok too?

[Twmaster]

A 5" chuck should be OK. Just be sure the jaws do not stick out far enough to hit the ways (or your fingers etc). The 4" chucks sold for those machines are the intended size considering the mass and capabilities of that machine.

Here's a, ahem, "pro-tip". Whenever you put something in the chuck, spin the chuck by hand to ensure it does not hit anything before powering the machine on.

Also, You should join the Atlas/Craftsman lathe group on Yahoo. You can download manuals for those machines from their files section. The manual will have a mounting diagram for hole drilling on your workbench.

Something else I just remembered. That MKII will likely have a plastic gib strip in the compound. You should replace it with the brass strip from a MK1 machine.

ETA: I just realized I might still have an original Atlas 4" 4 jaw for that machine. I'm working all weekend but will have a look in my stash early next week.

[Any Cal.]

I got my other project done(ish), spent a couple/few hours clearing a work area, and set up the lathe. It is just a wooden bench, but the lathe is level and secure, if nothing else. Need to wire in a switch for the motor, it is the standard equipment motor that is direct wired.

Started cutting some pipe and found the gibs on the crossfeed were way loose. Tightened them up, but the compound still seemed off. Turns out one of the pins behind the set screw was missing, so couldn't tighten up well. Sharpened up the bits with a bit of relief and they cut well, but the belt wasn't holding well. The little jockey pulley had ridden over on the bushing, so it would put a twist and a bow in the belt. Pulled that back together with a puller and all seems to be ok.

The plastic gib is not on the carriage, would it be on the other thing... the crossfeed slide?(right term?) If you had a 4 jaw I would love to work something out.

Oh, and how many times am I supposed to turn the machine on with a key in the chuck before I figure out I wasn't supposed to do that?

[Twmaster]

Pro tip #2.

Never. EVER leave the key in the chuck.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I hope you took this machine apart enough to clean it thoroughly before running it too much. Taking the tailstock off and the carriage as well are easy things to do, and you can clean better with them out of the way.

When you get the carriage off you can "Stone the bed ways with a new Norton sharpening stone using plenty of WD40 and a figure 8 motion. This will show you where all the low spots are and will also clean all of the rust off.

You can clean the painted portions of the machine with 409 or some similar detergent cleaner and then soak them over night with WD40 which will bring the paint back to its former glory.

All of the screws change gears and other exposed steel or metal piece parts can be done on a wire wheel. Don't go stupid wire wheeling the lead screw. If it shows dents or other dings either file them fair or get a new screw.

I would use a Scotch Brite fuzz wheel if it were in my shop. These are simple and easy to make and make de-rusting screws and the like much easier. Also a fine wire wheel will help.

You did good at $300, now you just have to take it apart far enough to get it clean so you don't trash it by running it with dirt in it.

Taking it apart will also familiarize you with all of the parts of this type of machine tool. As mentioned above you can down load the manuals which will give you the nomenclature for each part and a blow up of the subassemblies so you can see how to put it back together.

These are not hard machines to work on and other than adjusting the gibs when going back together nothing is that critical. The bed will be worn the most near the headstock end of the machine. Adjust the carriage gibs so that they are tight on the tight end but still allowing movement. They will be loser on the headstock end but no so much as to kill the rigidity that much.

If you stone the complete bed with the headstock off it you can see how bad it is. You might get lucky and just stoning it will bring it back. Worst case Scenario is you would need to take it to a grinding shop and have the bed reground. Probably not necessary on this machine since machines like this are rarely worn completely out, unless they were used in production shops. Home machines are rarely worn out they usually end up looking like yours did when you bought it. Still good machinery under the dirt. You just have to remove ALL the dirt!

If you do take the headstock we can walk you thru the realignment of it, which probably would be a good idea anyway. All you will need as a piece of nice round bar stock about a foot or so long and a dial indicator.

just be patient and work thru the project.

If you need help PM me or others.

Randy

[Any Cal.]

I spent a couple/few hours cleaning it up before I ran it. All the gears are clean and lubed, most of the ways are pretty clean, pulled the compound off the cross slide and cleaned and degunked everything. Tightened up all the gibs, got backlash out of cross slide. Just downloaded the manual.

Couldn't figure out how to get apron off, so did best I could. Need to do so, because the halfnut lever and whatever it attaches to are broken and need replaced.

Spent a couple hours trying to build a #1 dead center, but it was sort of an exercise in frustration. Whatever the steel was didn't like being machined, only really worked running dead slow with a heavy cut. Running faster it just galled badly and dulled my bit. Was fun, the part looks about right, but size was off from hogging on the last pass and turning undersize. Even trying to choke up next to the part, that toolpost set-up didn't seem to like the heavy cuts.

Just toying with the machine for a bit 'til I free up some funds for a bit of tooling. Dead center, drill chuck adapter, 4 jaw, and a QCTP just to get some rigidity, some boring bars. I would like to make a few 2" aluminum pulleys and the handles that are broken, but need a bit more tooling to do so(I think...). May be able to accomplish more with some known steel types, just from being able to machine them easier?

Just for fun, this was the project I had to finish up before I got on with the lathe...

http://imageshack.us/a/img706/4442/0bhn.jpg

[Any Cal.]

Alright, some things are starting to come together. Been playing with whatever scraps I can find to learn how to sharpen the inserts and run the machine. The halfnut lever is broken, but I can dink with it to make it run for now. Getting ready to order a dead center, but I can use the outside of the cup center I have now if I turn black pipe. Anyway, after adjusting the gibs and sharpenening the bit, here is .057" cut on a fine feed(.010"). Once I get much deeper at this speed (430) the belt slips. I am guessing it is turning better because I am starting to get the bits sharper and the carriage is tight enough? Maybe just 'cause I am starting to get the top of the bit closer to center? All of the above... :roll:

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/7168/cbnu.jpg

You can see the nicked up t-slot in the compound, I just realized that the toolpost is missing the dished washer. I knew it didn't seem right, but couldn't figure out why. I think the washer would help the rigidity considerably, since there is little contact against the compound, and it would keep the toolpost from flaking out the t-slot more. It was already like that, but I don't want to make it worse.

[Twmaster]

Do yourself a favor and get a quick change tool post and a hand full of holders.

It's easy to adjust the tool post for various tool heights. It's also more rigid which is important especially on light machines like that Atlas.

[W.R.Buchanan]

I agree with Twmaster about the tool post, a KDK or Aloris. small KDK's are usually cheaper.

Your chips are blue, that means you are pushing it pretty hard. The fact that that little lathe will do a .060 cut is pretty good.

When you set up your tool holder choke it up as close as you can get it to the tool. Yours is hangin out pretty far and for no reason. the closer it is clamped the more rigid it is.

Lathe Tools mounted in tool holders like you have were supposed to be set "5 degrees above center." Nobody ever knew what that meant. But the intention was that using your style of tool post and holder the flex in the system would bring the tool nose down to "on Center" when loaded up in a cut.

However the common way to set the elevation of the tool is to take a scale and push the tool against it with it up against the stock you are turning. When the scale is perfectly vertical the tool nose is on center. If you raise it slightly the scales top will move towards the back side of the machine. When the scale has moved 5 degrees past vertical you are at "5 degrees above center."

Some cutting oil on your tool when turning will make it last longer. It will also make some nice smelling smoke which you will learn to enjoy. The more blue chips you make the more smoke you will make, so you can gauge how fast to run the machine based on that.

Randy

[Any Cal.]

Thanks for the info! I was using tool oil in that pic, you can see just a bit of smoke if you look close. I am starting on a toolpost right now, trying to build one with the bit of tooling I have. No qc or anything, just a way to make something much more rigid. I am wondering if I should build it for Armstrong holders, or maybe some 3/8x1/2" hss bits? It is just giving me a project while I get a tool path figured out. Hoping to build it and a boring bar holder, as well as a boring bar. If I can get those I should be able to make a faceplate and some pulleys for something else.

[hickstick_10]

Start playing with your backgears on that lathe, they will increase the torque and youl get away with deeper cuts. Also your tool bits are a little to "keen" eather a little less top or side rake and you will have more control of those chips. What I mean by this is your chips will look like a little "6" , when the chips is flowing like in your picture your robbing power from the machine and putting alot of heat into your tool. When the chip curls back on itself and pops off its not taking the extra effort to flow across the tool face and build up more heat. Also see if you can kick up the feed to 0.012 or above for roughing cuts.

Building your tool holders for the bits will be a nice project, it does save alot of effort. If your after ridgidity the "gibralter" tool post would be a nice start.
http://www.hemingwaykits.com/acatalog/gibraltartoolpost.jpg This one would be nice to use with the armstrongs. Its just a glorified block of iron with a slot cut across one side and some set screws set in the top.

Keep in mind that if you use a fixed tool post for plain HSS tool bits, as you sharpen your bits the point of the tool will gradually become lower then the centerline (unless you gradually shim it up, this gets old fast), if you make a quick change post, you can compensate for this using the height screw, otherwise you end up having to grind back alot of hss you could have gotten use out of.

[W.R.Buchanan]

What you do is get away from hi-speed tools as soon as possible. You set your tool holder up for 3/8 tools. IE bottom of slot at .375 below center and then make the slot 1/2" wide so there is room to move the tool around
and get your self a couple of insert tool holders asap which will make life much easier.

When dealing with high speed too bits you never touch the top edge of the tool bit and that way the elevation doesn't change. This is not easy and you will learn how to do it, but until you do, you'll be shimming up your tools. Just get an assortment of plastic shim stock.

I have to do this on my Hardinge chucker as there is no way to adjust the elevation of most of the tool holders on those machines. It is not that big a deal.

Randy

[Lance Boyle]

Pro tip #2.

Never. EVER leave the key in the chuck.

that was the first rule I learned in the high school machine shop. Mr. Brown said anyone who did that would get tossed out and they'd likely buy a glass window or a glass eye.

[EDG]

>>>Oh, and how many times am I supposed to turn the machine on with a key in the chuck before I figure out I wasn't supposed to do that? <<<

Just remember if you are careless enough to leave the key in the chuck you are careless enough to have your shirt sleeves, hair or fingers wrapped up in the machine. Another killer is using a file with no handle on the tang. The chuck jaw can drive the tang right into your hand.

[Bent Ramrod]

Congratulations on your buy. You will be able to make any gun screw ever thought up with that lathe. I've made extractors and other small parts with the milling attachment. I've bought other machines since, but I still use my 6" Atlas for a lot of little jobs.

You should be able to get replacements for the broken wheels and levers at Clausing Service Center, which still supports the Atlas machines.

Jolene (Jo) Olds
Customer Service Manager

Clausing Service Center
1819 N Pitcher St
Kalamazoo, MI 49007

Phone: 1-800-535-6553 or 1-269-345-7155
Fax: 1-269-342-7888
Web Site: www.clausing-industrial.com

My shop teacher put it thusly: "If the key is in the chuck, your hand is on the key." Get Atlas' Manual of Lathe Operation and it will save you a lot of mistakes.

[Any Cal.]

Ooooh, parts! Just broke something, so definitely need to call them.

I was trying to turn down a section of 1 1/4" bolt unsupported, and it climbed over the bit and broke one of the chuck jaws...

Ordered a dead center so I don't have to keep trying to turn things unsupported, but they were back ordered. Did recieve some square bit stock, a couple mt drill adapters, and a set of center drills. Getting a couple belts and a center coming shortly.

Work on my toolpost is at a halt until I have a tailstock center and a decent belt.

Thanks for the tips, I will take all the help I can get. Will have my machinist buddy work with me once I get a tailstock center and belt, he can doublecheck the lathe and maybe help on my toolpost or a faceplate.

[Any Cal.]

Well, I was getting frustrated because it seemed like everything needs a tailstock center to turn. Then it hit me that thick stock would be ok, so I did the normal thing and started on a cannon. First gen was .25 cal, and more proof of concept than anything, but it worked.

Here is where I am on the next one...

http://imageshack.us/a/img12/3998/qwf7.jpg

Had a real tough time with the roughing cuts, but was using the junk center I had which doesn't hold much, and the stock was 10"+ long. Center punched for trunnions, but waiting for a center to finish the profile. Works great w/ paper patched 375449 boolits...:-)

[Any Cal.]

Ok, still learning. Have had a bit of time now and again, so am becoming dangerous. I had a retired machinist over for a few hours, he went over my lathe and showed me a few things. He also gave me a rule, fishtail, small square, a huge drill index full of drills, and a couple brazed carbide boring bars. Also had ordered and recieved a dead center, new belt, center drills, etc.

Took apart the apron and built up a lever and shaft for the halfnuts, as the old one was broken and missing when I got the machine.

Have been working with the hss bits, but could only get nice cuts on a few materials. After using his boring bar to cut with, I ordered some brazed carbide bits, looking forward to using them. Also got an OXA qctp anda 4 jaw coming.

Here is my latest endeavor... a single stroke gas-check maker. It works, but I need to remake 1/2 of it once I get a tiny boring bar, as it is tearing the checks a bit rather than cutting them cleanly.

86957

[Twmaster]

Forward progress is good!

If you want a good small boring bar look at the "Micro 100" brand. Solid carbide and cut like a hot knife through butter. And boy, they have some tiny boring bars available.

[KCSO]

As far as threading on a mini lathe if you really want to do it you need to adapt a crank handle to the spindle bore and turn the headstok by hand. This works fairly well if the 1/2 nuts are tight and the lathe will thread in the first place. A lot of the time you have to lap in the 1/2 nuts to get them to close properly. There is nothing wrong with a mini for small stuff, I just sold a Southbend 9x24 to buy a mini for doing small parts.

[Any Cal.]

The Micro 100 bars look good. I want to make some sizing dies and such, and want to clean up a drilled hole to the point that it doesn't need too much lapping. I am thinking that a small boring bar would be the right tool, but is that correct? Would using a 2 flute endmill be faster/better? Not wanting to buy bunches of reamers. I accidentally ordered some 1/4" brazed carbide tooling that I could probably grind some relief on and use as well.

There is a question buried in there somewhere... :bigsmyl2:

[Twmaster]

As far as threading on a mini lathe if you really want to do it you need to adapt a crank handle to the spindle bore and turn the headstok by hand. This works fairly well if the 1/2 nuts are tight and the lathe will thread in the first place. A lot of the time you have to lap in the 1/2 nuts to get them to close properly. There is nothing wrong with a mini for small stuff, I just sold a Southbend 9x24 to buy a mini for doing small parts.

He's got an Atlas 618 MKII. However, having owned small lathes, including the Chinese 7x and the Atlas 618 a crank handle is a must-have for threading IMHO.

[Twmaster]

The Micro 100 bars look good. I want to make some sizing dies and such, and want to clean up a drilled hole to the point that it doesn't need too much lapping. I am thinking that a small boring bar would be the right tool, but is that correct? Would using a 2 flute endmill be faster/better? Not wanting to buy bunches of reamers. I accidentally ordered some 1/4" brazed carbide tooling that I could probably grind some relief on and use as well.

There is a question buried in there somewhere... :bigsmyl2:

For your goals a reamer is the ideal tool to create the nicest finish of them all prior to polishing. A boring bar would be the next best if run at high speeds and very shallow cuts. Cratex wheels work well for polishing as do homemade flapper wheels using fine emory paper.

As to those 1/4" bits... If you bought a QCTP they will work just fine. Otherwise you'll need to shim them. I use some like that on my small lathes.

ETA: Another tip. You can hone and sharpen those carbide tipped tools. Just be careful not to try and sharpen them on normal gray grinding wheels. You'll ruin the wheels. You need green wheels to sharpen them. Once sharpened you can hone them on a stone.

[Any Cal.]

Great! It looks like I am going to pony up for a Micro 100 bar, most of this stuff is small, so the bar isn't too spendy. Just don't want to think about crashing it...

Will do the boring bar and lap with paper on a drill.

[Any Cal.]

Woo Hoo! This should give me a few options and save some time (I hope...).

87337

[paul h]

I need to get one of the quick change tool holders for my mini lathe, also a 4" 3 jaw chuck. The 4" 4 jaw is a nice addition and I usually use it more than the 3" 3 jaw. Also I made a collet holder using a 3mt blank arbor for a set of DA collets.

The upside of the 7X mini lathes is the can cover an aweful lot of home projects and the variable speed is very convenient. The downside is there is a distinct lack of rigidity in the cross slide and I have problems with chatter in the cut due to the lack of rigidity. Honestly my little Taig lathe did better work, but it was simple too small for my use.

[Any Cal.]

Mine is an Atlas, so similar but different. I have a really low low, and a very high high, but gear change is by pulley. It has a couple of differences in design that may help it out as well, but on the flip side all the parts end up costing more if they are specific to that model.

I bought the OXA size post, really glad I did, as it is already as big as I would want on the lathe. Supposedly it is 60% of the size of an AXA. It came with 10mm plate for a T-nut, took a long time to get it cut down enough to fit in the slot on the compound, which was only like .220"...

87374

There is a locker that locks the driven pulley to the spindle on mine, when not in backgear, and it has a ball detent to hold it in position. The ball keeps coming out, and I have to hold the locker in place w/ one hand while turning handles w/ the other... It is definitely time to get it fixed right, last time I didn't stake the ball in the bore so now i get to do it over again.

[Twmaster]

Cool beans! Try to move the tool post so the bit is as close to the centerline of the compound as you can.

[CastingFool]

I miss the #2 Jones and Lamson Universal lathe I used to run at work. Could turn up to 2" solid bar stock using collets, and could switch it to a 4 jaw chuck if needed to run larger diameter stock. Only had to do it a couple of times. Chased a lot of external threads, making studs, etc. Last I heard some foreman ended up buying it when the company decided to go to CNC.

[Any Cal.]

87705

That was my first test thread, OD unknown. Turned it down to 7/8 and made the same 14 tpi to thread into a press. It was junk 1.25" DOM tubing, so finish is lousy, and ID is probably less than .030" smaller than the root, so thread ended up tapered from the flex. All in all, I am happy with it.:D Fits my press just fine. Would like to play with some better material and do a few more.

I was threading toward the headstock, top slide pointing to 4:00, 29.5°, advancing with the compound. Does that sound ok?

[oldred]

Would using a 2 flute endmill be faster/better?


A ball end mill works pretty good but a regular end mill is not nearly as good as the ball type IMO, the ball end mill will give a nice finish and a close tolerance plus it's much easier to use for this purpose than a regular end mill. The finish and tolerance will not be quite as good as a reamer but it will be very close and a heck of a lot better than a drill bit!

[Twmaster]

87705

That was my first test thread, OD unknown. Turned it down to 7/8 and made the same 14 tpi to thread into a press. It was junk 1.25" DOM tubing, so finish is lousy, and ID is probably less than .030" smaller than the root, so thread ended up tapered from the flex. All in all, I am happy with it.:D Fits my press just fine. Would like to play with some better material and do a few more.

I was threading toward the headstock, top slide pointing to 4:00, 29.5°, advancing with the compound. Does that sound ok?

Looks good for a first time effort. It just gets easier from there so long as you understand why certain things happen. Like that taper.

[Any Cal.]

More pics and questions. First, some more threads. This is my current best effort, sharp hss toolbit, dialed in on the compound, a wire brush and emery over the finished product. Threads match a fishtail well, but I don't like the galling. Any suggestions? It is dom tubing for material. Air tool oil for cutting oil...:-) Using brazed carbide bits and 1018 was similar. 1.1" od, 150 rpm. I left the pics bigger so you can blow them up.

88911

88912

I am pretty happy with the finish on the smooth part, but it was a matter of try, try again, I couldn't have hit a size with that finish I don't think.

And then my new toy. Been trying to get some of this stuff used to get tooled up a bit. An old B&S micrometer. I don't know how to engage the spindle lock, but it seems nice.

88915

[bangerjim]

Get some REAL commercial cutting lube. Most normal oils you will have around are actually worse for cutting than doing it dry. I use "Gold" cutting fluid and get really smooth cut threads. I use only carbide replaceable/rotatable cutters.

I use NO power when threading, I made a handle adaptor for the headstock that allows me to turn the spindle by hand at VERY slow speeds and gives absolute control.

I have a variable frequency drive on the lathe (down to ONE RPS with FULL 1 HP power) so slow speeds are not a problem. But the hand controls is far superior to power drive.

150 RPM is far too fast for my work. I am in no hurry!

Also..... take a final VERY light cut on the last pass. I normally do not even touch the dials, just run the cutter over the threads again. That eliminates any rise or dig that may have been caused by the size.play in your lathe and offers up a very smooth finish.

[oldred]

Get some REAL commercial cutting lube. Most normal oils you will have around are actually worse for cutting than doing it dry.


+1! You beat me to it and I would have said the same, the right cutting oil can make all the difference between ragged and good clean threading.

[Twmaster]

I'll echo what's been said. Very light cuts for your last passes and good cutting fluid are a must for a super finish. I too like the "indexible" inserts for cutting threads (and lots of other things). And last, go slow.

[blaser.306]

88932Small lathes ( like mine ) will generaly work better with HSS than with carbide of any type! Just because of the speed and depth of cut requiered to make them work the way they are intended to. As mentioned get a good quality cutting fluid, I have been using one that I bought at the Home depot in the black iron pipe section . It works good and is cheap. On your threading tool , did you leave the 60 deree point sharp or did you put a small radius on it? Also doing a couple of spring passes will hep clean things up . When you are aproaching your final depth of cut , try advancing the cross slide feeding the cutter straight in and leave the compound where it is. This will clean up both sides of the cut thread. Verry light cuts here are key to avoid chatter. I added a pic of an "m" die that I just finnished making, This is cut from 1" crs with the method mentioned . The more you thread the easier it gets!

[oldred]

Just a note about the indexiable insert tools, cheap out here and you will regret it. The cheap carbide inserts themselves are not usually all that bad although they are (as is most Chinese carbide) somewhat brittle but the tools are worse than junk. I have yet to see a tool (holder) that will hold an insert tight and after a couple of minutes or so they will become loose and will RUIN your work! The cheesy soft Chinese holding screws will strip the Allen or Torx socket and sometimes even the threads before they can be torqued down even close to tight enough and even when they are replaced with good screws the carbide will STILL work loose because of the soft metal and loose fit of the tool. If insert type tooling is used then spend the money to get Kennemetal, Sandivik, etc and don't be tempted by the low price of the imported Chinese junk, it will only be an exercise in frustration and will do a heck of a lot more harm than can be justified by the lower cost. I know these "name brand" tools are waaaaaaay more costly but over-priced as they may seem they are the better choice, a LOT better choice!

[Any Cal.]

Will try the Hd cutting fluid since I won't have to ship it. I was using the compound for the last passes, but think that I may have been cutting too deep, with the wrong fluid aggaravating the problem.

I put a fine radius on the bit when sharpening so the threads look right w/ the tip of the fishtail in them.

Thanks for the info on the threading tool holders. I was looking at them, but the name brand ones are far out of my price range. Will keep an eye out for one to come up for less on ebay, and skip the cheap ones.

blaser, I would be proud of that m-die!

[bangerjim]

Just a note about the indexiable insert tools, cheap out here and you will regret it. The cheap carbide inserts themselves are not usually all that bad although they are (as is most Chinese carbide) somewhat brittle but the tools are worse than junk. I have yet to see a tool (holder) that will hold an insert tight and after a couple of minutes or so they will become loose and will RUIN your work! The cheesy soft Chinese holding screws will strip the Allen or Torx socket and sometimes even the threads before they can be torqued down even close to tight enough and even when they are replaced with good screws the carbide will STILL work loose because of the soft metal and loose fit of the tool. If insert type tooling is used then spend the money to get Kennemetal, Sandivik, etc and don't be tempted by the low price of the imported Chinese junk, it will only be an exercise in frustration and will do a heck of a lot more harm than can be justified by the lower cost. I know these "name brand" tools are waaaaaaay more costly but over-priced as they may seem they are the better choice, a LOT better choice!

The Chino crapola is just that. But you have not seen the many indexable cutter holders I have MADE! I have 3 milling machines and a heat treating full vacuum furnace, so I design and make/heat treat ALL my lathe tool holders, including the Aloris-style post and holders. I have not tightened the screws on my 3 threading insert holders in over 6 months!!!!!

ALL my carbide inserts ( I have many POUNDS of them) are all US made.......NOT HF junk. TIN coating adds to the life and accuracy.

Quality starts with the tooling......then to the machine.......and is all tied together by the skill and knowledge of the operator. As an engineer, I have been running lathes and mills for over 40 years.

Keep those chips flying!

banger

[bangerjim]

88932Small lathes ( like mine ) will generaly work better with HSS than with carbide of any type! Just because of the speed and depth of cut requiered to make them work the way they are intended to. As mentioned get a good quality cutting fluid, I have been using one that I bought at the Home depot in the black iron pipe section . It works good and is cheap. On your threading tool , did you leave the 60 deree point sharp or did you put a small radius on it? Also doing a couple of spring passes will hep clean things up . When you are aproaching your final depth of cut , try advancing the cross slide feeding the cutter straight in and leave the compound where it is. This will clean up both sides of the cut thread. Verry light cuts here are key to avoid chatter. I added a pic of an "m" die that I just finnished making, This is cut from 1" crs with the method mentioned . The more you thread the easier it gets!

Since ALL of my inserts are TiN coated, I leave them with whatever point/radius they have when I purchase them. You never grind/sharpen TiN cutters, unless you want to give up the advantages of that coating.

Yes.....practice makes perfect.....or there abouts! As an engineer, I have been cutting threads and milling metal for over 40 years. It is second nature to me, but I have edumacated many new-comers in the skills.

banger

[Twmaster]

@Blaser.306...

Just a data point. I have been using indexable holders since I began making chips. Some of them even cheapo imports. I've *never* had an insert come loose ever. Also I will agree... Good inserts are the way to go if using this type of tooling. Cheapo inserts are not worth the time. I've even bought some import holders and tossed the junk inserts and replaced them with Sandvik or Kennemetal inserts.

[blaser.306]

@Blaser.306...

Just a data point. I have been using indexable holders since I began making chips. Some of them even cheapo imports. I've *never* had an insert come loose ever. Also I will agree... Good inserts are the way to go if using this type of tooling. Cheapo inserts are not worth the time. I've even bought some import holders and tossed the junk inserts and replaced them with Sandvik or Kennemetal inserts.

I beleive your reply was mis-directed! I personaly have had no "bad " experience with carbide. I just find that on my machine a very sharp HSS tool bit makes a nicer finnish, and also will cut better at a lower SFPM. If carbide works for you and your machine that is great . For me and the majority of what I am doing I like grinding my own.

[oldred]

@Blaser.306...

Just a data point. I have been using indexable holders since I began making chips. Some of them even cheapo imports. I've *never* had an insert come loose ever. Also I will agree... Good inserts are the way to go if using this type of tooling. Cheapo inserts are not worth the time. I've even bought some import holders and tossed the junk inserts and replaced them with Sandvik or Kennemetal inserts.


From my experience, and from others I know, you have been very lucky! The Cheapo Chinese holders are soft and ill fitting so it it becomes difficult to impossible in most cases to keep an insert tight, just ONE loose insert can be a disaster that will easily wipe out any savings depending on the job! Those things are an unacceptable risk for any quality work that is worth more than the cost of a tool.



Good quality tooling can be found on E-Bay, it goes really cheap sometimes and not so cheap at other times. The trick is to keep watching and only bid when the auction is in the last seconds, I recently bought two Accupro Xtra-Long 9/16" coated carbide end mills for $21.60 INCLUDING shipping! These end mills retail for over $130 EACH at MSC. Deals like that do not happen often but they are to be had if you are diligent, I recently saw a new Sandivik indexiable facing holder go unsold with no bids at a starting bid of just $15.00 so it pays to keep an eye on the tooling you need and sooner or later a real bargain will happen.


BTW, I am not a "Cheapo tool basher" and I own a lot of Chinese tools, heck even my 14x40 lathe was bought new at Harbor Freight! I have tried most of the Chinese stuff because of price and a lot of it is ok if the limitations are accepted but Chinese tooling such as end mills, those indexiable holders, milling vises and a couple of other items are usually hit-or-miss (mostly miss) and are just not worth the risk due to the likelihood of causing errors and/or destroying the work. Others such as calipers/micrometers, dial indicators, etc seem to be just fine -certainly not in the same class as say Starrett or B&S but still usable all the same.

[Any Cal.]

Well, I really needed a small boring bar, but really can't spend on one right now... That leaves making them, since I need to learn what I am doing anyway. Here are bars # 2 & 3. They use chunks of Snap-On 5/32 drills for bits. 3/8 shank, approximately .4" and .5" min bore, and cut much nicer than my cheap brazed carbide tool bits.

90586


Maybe now my next luber/sizer die won't have so much taper to it... :mad:

[W.R.Buchanan]

It looks like you are getting the hang of this. Your boring bars look good and if they work well then you are headed in the right direction.

I still have lathe tooling I made 30 years ago for my uses and most of it still works just fine.

You are having finish problems mainly due to the actual materials you are working with. 1018 machines like Ship. Any Cromoly is worse.

Also cutting fluids will only make a very small difference in your finishes. If they don't come out close when dry they aren't going to be that much better wet. The main reason for them is the lubricity which helps your tools last longer and they do promote cutting by virtue of helping to break the surface tension of the material as the tool engages it. There is a saying,,, "never run a tap dry" the above reasons are why.

Find some material called 12L14. It is basically 1018 with some lead added. (I think they are using something other than lead now since everyone is so scared of lead nowadays) The finishes you get with 12L14 are night and day better than anything you will ever see with cold rolled steels.

The vast majority of Collets for lathes are made of 12L14 and then case hardened. Reloading dies are made of 12L14 and then case hardened and then ground or honed to size. The material is also called Leaded Screw Machine Stock, and was created for use on automated machines where the build up of chips was undesirable. It is slightly stronger than 1018 and is suitable for anything that you would make out of 1018 or the like. The machinability of the material is well beyond other lo-grade steels, and the finishes you will get are far superior.

Sometimes it is NOT your fault! Learning when it is, is what you are trying to learn.

It is all I use when mild steel is called for. It is available from any metal supplier or smaller quantities are available from Mc Master Carr.

One of the biggest things about becoming a machinist is learning where to buy stuff. It will take you some time to become familiar with the best outfits to do business with and build relationships with them. I recommend McMaster-Car simply because they are a Nationwide Company,,,and they have just about everything known to man! They are the best run company I have ever seen, bar none! Their catalog is about 4" thick!

Only about 3 times in the last 30 years they have failed to deliver what I ordered by the next day!

Start there and work out.

Keep at it, you're doing fine.

Randy

[targetfreak]

It looks like you are getting the hang of this. Your boring bars look good and if they work well then you are headed in the right direction.

I still have lathe tooling I made 30 years ago for my uses and most of it still works just fine.


You are having finish problems mainly due to the actual materials you are working with. 1018 machines like Ship. Any Cromoly is worse.

Also cutting fluids will only make a very small difference in your finishes. If they don't come out close when dry they aren't going to be that much better wet. The main reason for them is the lubricity which helps your tools last longer and they do promote cutting by virtue of helping to break the surface tension of the material as the tool engages it. There is a saying,,, "never run a tap dry" the above reasons are why.

Find some material called 12L14. It is basically 1018 with some lead added. (I think they are using something other than lead now since everyone is so scared of lead nowadays) The finishes you get with 12L14 are night and day better than anything you will ever see with cold rolled steels.

The vast majority of Collets for lathes are made of 12L14 and then case hardened. Reloading dies are made of 12L14 and then case hardened and then ground or honed to size. The material is also called Leaded Screw Machine Stock, and was created for use on automated machines where the build up of chips was undesirable. It is slightly stronger than 1018 and is suitable for anything that you would make out of 1018 or the like. The machinability of the material is well beyond other lo-grade steels, and the finishes you will get are far superior.

Sometimes it is NOT your fault! Learning when it is, is what you are trying to learn.

It is all I use when mild steel is called for. It is available from any metal supplier or smaller quantities are available from Mc Master Carr.

One of the biggest things about becoming a machinist is learning where to buy stuff. It will take you some time to become familiar with the best outfits to do business with and build relationships with them. I recommend McMaster-Car simply because they are a Nationwide Company,,,and they have just about everything known to man! They are the best run company I have ever seen, bar none! Their catalog is about 4" thick!

Only about 3 times in the last 30 years they have failed to deliver what I ordered by the next day!

Start there and work out.

Keep at it, you're doing fine.

Randy

Well, I have an account with McMaster going back about thirty years and I have nothing bad to say about them. In fact, I recommend them to everyone. The only complaints I ever had was the brief time they were using FedEx, and the one time they way-overpacked an item they sent to me. They are the best, and REALLY listen to their customers!

[Twmaster]

Nifty little boring bars. Nice job. I'll echo what Randy said. 12L14 is amazing stuff. Cuts incredibly well. 1018 is miserable in comparison. I also like that 1144 for lots of other uses requiring a stronger steel that cuts well.

I was not aware that dies were made from 12L14 and case hardened. That is useful info. Thank you.

[Any Cal.]

I had gotten ahold of some 12l44, it is nice stuff. I guess some of the benchrest guys are using it as-is for dies, but it doesn't leave the brass shiny that way, as it isn't very hard. It sure makes threads a lot easier, but I would like to progress to making nice threads on barrel steels, so still more learning to do.

90709

So far I have a couple die blanks from the stuff, and a Luber sizer die I messed up because I didn't have a small boring bar, hence the project...

[Any Cal.]

Uh-oh, Any Cal. got his grubby little hands on an endmill... If I knew what I was doing I would be dangerous...:mrgreen:

A piece of 12l44 cut like a reamer would be fluted. Next step is to do the same to a piece of O1, harden, sharpen, and try it out.

[Twmaster]

Ruh roh! You is dangerous! :D

[W.R.Buchanan]

See we've created a GD monster!

Any Cal: most barrels are made of Cromoly steel. Threads are only going to look so good. Carbide threading tools are a must and preferably ones that will cut on both sides. It is going to be challenging to get really good threads in that material with your little lathe. It is difficult for me on my Omniturn CNC which is essentially a CNC Hardinge Speed Lathe. It is very rigid and very accurate but the material is just a problem no matter what you do. the only way I have ever seen good finishes on that material is by Pre-hardening it and running diamond tools on a very rigid Mori Seiki SL25 at warp speed. Those threads looked perfect, and shined like a diamond in a goats ****.

Also you will soon need a set of thread wires to measure your threads so you get them the right size. Testing with a commercial nut is only going to get you so far.

We will now call you,,,, 'Monster!"

Randy

[Any Cal.]

I have some thread wires in my shopping cart, just need to come up with some funds for those and a few other things.

I am hoping to build a Savage barrel or three; I don't think they have a shoulder? I am wondering if I could use a threading tool and run them at 5-900 rpm and make it work. 20tpi so the tool won't advance too fast. I have been running 11tpi threads @ 130 or 190 to a thread relief, so figure just have to keep the toolbit from crashing into the chuck...:x Thoughts?:-)

If you think that's bad, you should hear my idea for chambering them... :-)

[W.R.Buchanan]

Run the machine backwards and thread from the inside out. That way you start in the thread relief and end when ever. No problems running into stuff that way.

Works on ID threads as well except you have to run the tool upside down.

Two little tidbits for you to chew on.

Randy

[Any Cal.]

Working on a multi-use fixture, eventually for larger slotting or coping. Here is the start, had some help from somebody with some decent sized machines... The other three sides are unfinished, and I need to figure out a good work holding setup. Considering t-slots, but would not be able to do that myself. Possibly just a bunch of 1/4-20 holes.

91516

Also learned the hard way... had to open up the bore on the bottom, using my dial caliper to measure, as it is the only inside measuring tool I own right now. Afterwards, the fit is sloppy, partly because the inside and outside jaws aren't the same... Was really wishing I had already gotten some telescoping gauges.

[ohland]

I use NO power when threading, I made a handle adaptor for the headstock that allows me to turn the spindle by hand at VERY slow speeds and gives absolute control.

I made up one as well. 150 RPM is way too fast before the tool crashes into the shoulder.

Since you have the lathe already, some things in retrospect-

It is nice to be able to reverse the feed (opposite the spindle direction!)
60 RPM would be a good, slow speed for threading.
A geared head makes things much easier.
A variable speed drive is su-weet. Accept no substitute for holy joy.

A retractable cutting tool holder for an AXA would be good for cutting threads...