HEAVY .338 Cast Bullet for hunting? (More than 410 grains)

[patrickrio]

I am not sure if this is possible or advisable BUT:

I have been researching a HEAVY .338 soft lead hunting round. When I say heavy, I mean HEAVY for caliber. The laws at my hunting location require an impact energy of greater than 1000ft/lbs at 100yds which is a tough hurdle. I have shot a 300 blk and love it, but it won't come close to a hunting legal subsonic shot....even with that GIANT 247gr NOE bullet.

In this subsonic exercise, I am looking for a caliber that lets me shoot a decent weight round subsonic that is hunting legal, while also allowing me to shoot a faster/higher energy supersonic to longer ranges with more muzzle energy out of the same barrel. Lets say my supersonic round is at least 2200ft/sec minimum muzzle velocity. So I am looking for a solution that gets me at least 410gr at 1050ft/sec on what could be a cast bullet, and lighter than 300gr at at least 2200ft/sec for a readily available factory hunting round that I would reload myself. Lighter and faster with slightly less kick in a gun weighing close to 8lbs is what I am looking for in the supersonic round.

This dream likely requires a subsonic cast bullet weight of 410 grains or more for the subsonic round. Even a lead cylinder that weight and .338 inches in diameter must be 1.6 inches long.......ooof. Can a reasonably accurate hunting round this weight be designed for this caliber or is this a complete pipe dream? I am assuming that very soft lead is desirous, and maybe even a deep but small hollow point, to allow substantial mushrooming at low strike speeds.

If this is even possible, I am sure it will require a custom made, fast twist barrel. I am thinking that the old Remington 700 .308 with a crappy, worn out barrel a friend has would make the perfect test donor.

As for the cartridge, it would also have to be custom....You could cut off and form .338 necked .308 brass that would physically work with the bullet. You would have to move the neck closer to the primer, of course, to fit that LOOONG bullet in the 2.8 inch COL. Brass length would be shorter....Think .338 federal with the neck closer to the primer... I think the only gun mod required to shoot this round would then be the new barrel (only..HA!).

I have been running various twist calculators and have been getting wildly varying twist requirements. I suspect that many calculators don't work very well with unusual variables like what shows up in a 1.8+ inch long, subsonic .338 bullet. What calculator will give me the most accurate prediction of required twist in this case?

If this can work, I am thinking that the subsonic round would only be used to a maximum 200yds anyway. I thought it would be great to have a more standard supersonic hunting round that can be set in the same cartridge for longer ranges.... using something like this 160gr Barnes:

http://barnesbullets.myshopify.com/collections/tipped-tsxtm-bullet/products/338-cal-338-160-gr-ttsx-fb

SOOOO.... If possible this could be a legal hunting rifle with some versatility like the .300 Blk (which is not hunting legal with subsonic rounds.....)

Help needed:

1. A twist calculator that is known to be accurate at calculating within the necessary unusual variable range so I can see if this is even possible.

2. If the twist can be made to work, what should the mold look like?????

3. If This isn't possible, what larger caliber will be my best choice? I was thinking .375 or .416 might work.....

Maybe this can't be done in .338, but I want to investigate the possibility before considering something larger that has dramatically fewer factory rounds available (.35, .375 or .416 ? those subsonics could reach 410gr easier...but the factory supersonic round would also be HEAVIER and/or SLOWER).

Thanks for your suggestions......

[Mk42gunner]

Welcome aboard.

I don't know about the twist rates and barrels available, but I do not think a short action Remington Model 700 in .308 will work for your proposed cartridge, because of magazine length. Even going with your figure of 1.6" boolit length, seating it to the base of the neck will leave roughly 1.3" protruding for a COL of ~3.315.

That is long action territory, possibly even magnum length action by the time you add in any aerodynamic features.

What and where are you planning to hunt?

Robert

[Three44s]

.416 Taylor!


Three 44s

[patrickrio]

Hi Robert, thanks for responding.

I would be hunting deer, maybe pronghorn, and MAAAAYBE elk.

Colorado is the state with the brutal requirements. They allow hunting with suppressors, but they don't make subsonic easy....From the Regulations:

Rifles using center fire cartridges of .24 caliber or larger, having expanding bullets of at
least seventy (70) grains in weight, except for elk and moose where the minimum bullet
weight is eighty-five (85) grains, and with a rated impact energy one hundred (100) yards
from the muzzle of at least one thousand (1000) foot pounds as determined by the
manufacturer's rating providing that any semiautomatic rifle used shall not hold more than
six (6) rounds in the magazine and chamber combined. A fully automatic rifle is
prohibited.

As for the cartridge, my idea would be to START with either a .308 winchester or a .338 federal cartridge, move the neck closer to the primer end, and resize to .338. Then I would trim the cartridge to the required length. If you move the neck far enough, you could still fit a long bullet in the 2.8 inch COL of a standard .308. Neck length would likely be longer than a .308 and be set by two extremes: one end would be set by the 410gr subsonic and the other end would be set by the requirements for the 160gr Barnes. The lower case below the neck would be dramatically reduced in length.

Now if any of this would actually work, I am not sure yet. Seems like I might be riding the ragged edge......The barrel would have to be custom made because of fast twist and the round would also require customized brass.

[patrickrio]

Hi Three44s,

I think .416 is interesting, and casting a 410gr bullet will be much easier in that caliber as a cylinder 1.05 inches long and .416 in diameter will weigh over 410gr. We know for sure that heavy bullets will work with this caliber also: Hawk has a 500gr round point for example...

HOWEVER, .416 has far fewer pointed, higher BC factory supersonic rounds available for it, and those rounds are MUCH heavier. I think the lightest is only available in Germany (220gr). The lightest I have found in the US is from Barnes and is 300gr.

http://barnesbullets.myshopify.com/collections/tsxtm-bullet/products/416-cal-416-300-gr-tsx-fb

Shooting those at higher supersonic speeds will be rougher on my shoulder than I want, but maybe will be required. I would like to rule out .338 before proceeding down that path...

[BruceB]

I'm having a hard time understanding the "problem".

1000 ft lbs at 100 yards is extremely easy to achieve. All it takes is 200 grains traveling at 1500 fps, and the world is full of rifles that can do that, even with cast bullets.

I frankly think that 1000ft.lbs @ 100 yards is FAR TOO LOW. My preference for CAST-bullet hunting in Colorado would simply be the suggested .338 (with a normal weight 250-300 grain bullet) or something up in the .375-.416 class as already suggested.

Why the need for a 400+ bullet? It's impractical for the bore size, and the game surely doesn't need it.

[Hardcast416taylor]

I can only tell you what I settled on, you can figure from this . I settled on a .338/06 with PP bullets in the 240 gr. range. I also settled on the .416 Taylor with a PP 395 gr. bullet. Both of these bullet molds are semi spire pointed. If you have never fired either of these rounds, do not make conclusions on what their recoil may be or is.Robert

[patrickrio]

Hi BruceB,

I have a great 30-06 also, and will use that this year as I doubt this little project could possibly be done by hunting season. I may try casting some of my own for that this year, we will see....

The "problem" only has to do with my desire for hunting subsonic, suppressed. The .338 would also let me use a 9mm suppressor that is readily available. I would also like a caliber that has a huge selection of factory bullets for supersonic shooting. Maybe I am just making this problem harder than it needs to be and I should just up the bore for this project to .375 or .416.....

As you point out, the 410gr weight of the bullet is on the edge of possible for the .338 bore(maybe not possible... that is what I am trying to calculate...). And it MAY not be a good idea anyway as it still only gets me 1000ft.lbs. My thought is that it might be ok for short range deer... and since I mainly want to hunt deer, this might be ok (I can always use the 30-06 if I want bigger game....)

If .338 is just plain bad for this, I may move to calculating for a larger bore instead. For sure a larger caliber would be easier, as others have already figured out heavier subsonic bullets for the bigger calibers....

In any case, I get the idea that doing casting or wildcatting is rarely the truly practical solution..... I am working on this problem because it is interesting!

[patrickrio]

Hi Hardcast416taylor,

You are right, I have not shot those rounds yet.

I have shot rounds with about 3200ft lbs. energy from a gun weighing a bit over 8 lbs. Frankly, the kick on that is a bit more than I want for enjoyable shooting. maybe I am a *****.

ANYWAY, using a calculator, and assuming a gun of similar weight, muzzle velocity for a 240gn could be 2450 ft/sec and the 395gn could be about 1900ft/sec for an equivalent 3200 muzzle energy and approximately equivalent kick.

In this subsonic exercise, I am looking for a caliber that lets me shoot a decent weight round subsonic that is hunting legal, while also allowing me to shoot a faster/higher energy supersonic to longer ranges with more muzzle energy out of the same barrel. Lets say my supersonic round is at least 2200ft/sec minimum muzzle velocity. So I am looking for a solution that gets me at least 410gr at 1050ft/sec on what could be a cast bullet, and lighter than 300gr at at least 2200ft/sec for a readily available factory hunting round that I would reload myself. Lighter and faster with slightly less kick in a gun weighing close to 8lbs is what I am looking for in the supersonic round.

All things being equal, a smaller caliber should allow a lighter supersonic round at a higher muzzle velocity..... This is why .338 is interesting. However, 338 may not allow my 410gr 1050ft/sec round.

Maybe I am overly optimistic at the possibilities on this.... and need a good dose of Hardcast416Taylor reality...

[Changeling]

If you don't mind my asking, why do you want a suppressed rifle? They are very cool in movies but very impractical actually.
You do know that they affect accuracy don't you?
There are some really great rifle/calibers available that will do everything you want and "MORE"! One notable one is the 375 H&H Magnum! It is no slouch at "long range", packs enough energy to handle anything in the US and is considered a classic caliber for African game and the finest all around caliber in the world!
For some unknown reason a 375 H&H properly stocked does not seem to have the recoil one would expect, I dearly loved mine and am sorry as Hell I ever sold it!.

[Marlin Junky]

If you want a subsonic hunting round, why not just go with the 45-70? To penetrate deer, you don't need a sectional density of .500 and the corresponding twist to stabilize it either.

MJ

[patrickrio]

Hi Changeling,

I became interested after I shot a suppressed 300 blk AR with a long barrel belonging to a friend of a friend. I shot both subsonic and supersonic rounds. It was a lot of fun and actually very accurate. More accurate than I am frankly, the friend was doing sub moa subsonic at 100yds. The subsonic was even pretty accurate to 300yds. I just loved the subsonic shots... I bet you could shoot a deer and the only thing that would spook its graze mates would be the sound of the deer falling. BUT he said the factory bullets didn't expand well subsonic and they were lacking in energy (designed for higher velocity). The supersonic rounds were going 2200-2400 ft/sec I believe and I am sure they had enough power for hunting, They also expanded fine.

After doing research, I found that the 300 blk is not a legal hunting weapon subsonic in Colorado. So, I started looking at how you can do subsonic in something a bit bigger to meet the Colorado requirements.

The truth is, there are MANY options for supersonic hunting rifles. I just LOVE my 30-06. It is the best shooting gun I have ever owned or shot frankly, and has sentimental value as it is the last gift I received from my grandfather before he passed. I tinkered on that gun with him, and it is an entirely customized, hand built rifle.

But I really liked that 300 blk and am interested in something similar. I may yet go .375 for this project....Besides, I am a real tinkerer, so working on a project as opposed to buying a ready made rifle appeals to me.

[longbow]

Haven't done it myself but am surely interested... except suppressors are illegal where I live so...

Anyway, what Marlin Junky said... .45-70 and using this boolit:

http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/SubsonicBullet.html

Scroll down a bout a third of the page and there is a drawing of a subsonic .45 cal. boolit design by Dr. Richard Gunn. I have a dimensioned drawing as well but cannot find the site to list a link.

I scaled that design down to .44 with the thought of using .444 Marlin brass instead of .45-70 and converting a Lee Enfield action. Just toying with ideas.

Something like that should give you the subsonic performance you are looking at but would be a bit limited for long range supersonic performance if you want high ballistic coefficients at relatively high velocities like .338 might get you.

Just thinkin'

Longbow

[Matt85]

If you want a subsonic hunting round, why not just go with the 45-70? To penetrate deer, you don't need a sectional density of .500 and the corresponding twist to stabilize it either.

MJ

+1

why not go with a 45-70? I know it doesn't meet your super high velocity requirement but it will do anything else you ask of it. im betting a 500 grain flat nosed bullet will not only be subsonic but easily exceed your energy/expansion requirement. if you wanna shoot some higher velocity loads you can shoot some pretty tiny bullets out of a 45-70 with great accuracy (ex: 145-150 gr collar bullets)!

-matt

[patrickrio]

Hi Marlin Junky,

I know that you can do some great subsonic work with the 45/70, and the last lever action I had was my first BB gun (ha) so it is a very interesting prospect.

It appears very easy to get very heavy subsonic bullets out of it also.... truly quality subsonic hunting. And it looks like there are cast bullets up to about 600gr as well as factory bullets to 550gr. 600gr would be good for 1500ft/lbs subsonic.

I think I would have to give up on the high BC supersonic light bullets though. Light bullets are kind of short to get any real aerodynamics out of. Here are some 158gn 45/70 bullets.... http://www.adventuresinairguns.com/collar-button-grain-solid-bullets-pi-218.html?image=0&osCsid=a2e58b7c75ece2dd7e21564e9276e2aa

Here are some 250gn hollowpoint Barnes numbers: http://barnesbullets.myshopify.com/collections/tsxtm-bullet/products/458-250-gr-tsx-fn-fb-45-70

Maybe the fun of this gun would make me quit caring if I got a dual purpose rifle....

[patrickrio]

Hi Matt85,

You beat me to my answer to Marlin Junky....

I think we may be on to something. However, is it me or are the prices for the 45/70 stuff a bit high........ well, I guess the cases will last a lot of reloads at the lower 45/70 pressure.....

What about suppressors.. will a 45 cal surpressor work on this???? That would be pretty crazy.....

[patrickrio]

Hi Longbow,

that 45/70 bullet is interesting.... and would be good for a muzzle energy of about 1200ft/lbs

What I give up is the dual purpose rifle ability.....

[Andrew Mason]

It's not good to shoot cast boolit in a suppressor

Some companies even go far enough to say
"No lead bullets"

[patrickrio]

Hello Mr Mason,

I think the problem is leading and baffle strikes. A good titanium or stainless can that comes apart easily will take care of cleaning the lead out. As for baffle strikes, it seems the only solution is a well spun and balanced bullet....

certainly hand loading increases the chance that a bullet will be designed out of spec for the rifling twist (like my .338 1.8+ inch long bullet maybe?). And lead bullets might be cast out of balance.....

[patrickrio]

Follow Up to Longbow,

I have been researching the lapua subsonic and the other bullet mentioned in the article you linked (http://members.shaw.ca/cronhelm/SubsonicBullet.html), as those bullets were able to decrease dramatically the twist requirements of a barrel by applying aerodynamic and weighting techniques to bullet design.

Essentially the gist is this: Most bullets with points and single metal construction have a center of pressure a decent amount forward from the center of gravity. The further you can move the center of gravity forward and move the center of pressure back, the less you need to spin stabilize. If you can move the center of gravity in front of the center of pressure, you have a dart and don't need to spin stabilize.

The 480 grain cast lead bullet has a longish boat tail with a very short and wide flat nose. this means that its center of gravity and center of pressure are closer together than a normal pointed bullet. In addition it appears that the last drive band creates a rebated boat tail causing a change in drag toward the rear of the bullet.

The Nosler bullet also uses the rebated boat tail trick. In addition it uses a wider than usual pointed nose construction. It has a rebated boat tail, and has driving bands toward the rear of the bullet to move the center of pressure backwards on the bullet. In addition, the bullet is jacketed, but has solid copper at the rear of the bullet with the lead core only existing toward the front of the bullet. this moved the center of gravity forward. The end result is that this bullet acts more like a much shorter bullet.

So, what this means is that we may have some techniques to do the same to a lead bullet. I will have to think about this....Maybe doing some aerodynamic analysis of subsonic shapes is in order?????

[rockrat]

Get a suppressor that you can disassemble to clean the lube residue off of the baffles. I am sure the "no lead bullet" ones are sealed


405 winchester or 416 Rem mag come to mind, for what you want. A 375 H&H would work well with a fast twist barrel for that heavy slug. I know I push a 310+gr boolit at a little over 2000fps out of mine with very good accuracy (1.5"@100yds). Stock Ruger #1

[patrickrio]

OK,

So I found someone who has done something similar to my hair-brained .338 idea. It is the .338 Spectre. Here is the link:

http://www.teppojutsu.com/338.htm

They are driving the same 160gr Barnes I listed above at up to 1800ft/sec 2.00 COAL
They are regularly driving a 300gr Sierra matchking at 1000ft/sec (1.7 inch bullet length) stable from a 1/7 twist barrel in 2.20 COAL http://olegvolk.net/gallery/technology/arms/ammo/338spectre_match_subsonic_7843.jpg.html?g2_imageVi ewsIndex=1

The magazines and uppers can handle up to a 2.30 COAL

The newer Spectres have a 1/6.5 twist... someone tried this new barrel with the 325gr Rocky mountain 338 RBTAL that is 2.03 inches bullet length (http://www.rmbullets.com/page3.html) but there wasn't enough powder room left in the cartridge to get that round up to speed while keeping the COAL under 2.30.

It looks like my 410gr bullet would work based on this info, just not in the Spectre because the case lacks room for sufficient powder. But the 2.8 COAL 308 Winchester based brass should have more room.....

[patrickrio]

Hi Rockrat,

I think .375 may be a good backup plan.

Lightest bullet is a flat nose at 180gn
Lightest pointed hunting bullet is 235gn
The heaviest factory bullet is 330gn

Cast bullet of 410gr should be shorter that 1.5 inches....

[meteu271]

Stumbled across this thread and had to sign up and chime in. I've been shooting a custom 44 for a couple of years that would fit your bill. The 44 claymore. Not commercially available at the moment, but I'm hoping to change that. AR15 platform, 425gr at 1050fps and 240gr at 2400fps. I can give a few more details tonight when I have more time if you like.

[rosst]

what range do you want to shoot out to . . . if its 300 or less go with the 45/70 and a dialup combination mildot style scope, you'll do it easy.
KISS, keep it simple . . .

[Groo]

Groo here
If you can find a 30-40 crag action , go with the 405..
400+ gr cast is out there and factory will go 2200fps.
If you can "stand" the limitations get an Encore with a rifle stock and a 405 barrel.
After market barrels can be had threaded and you can get fast twist wildcats that will do what you want .
The 338 whisper comes to mind as dose the 338 #2 JDJ ,the 338 GNR and others.

[patrickrio]

the 44 Claymore looks like a cool project. Thanks for being polite, but lets put backlinks in for posterity....
http://www.beyond556.com/bboard/showthread.php?5471-.44-Claymore-Update
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSe13aj_nZ0

very interesting i would love to hear more about it....