I was sick to my stomach after seeing this...

[jdgabbard]

Recently picked up an 8lb jug of wc844 from a guy. Took it home and sat it on the shelf next to my other jugs. Opened it up today to do some loading with it now that I have some 55gr FMJBT, and after a scoop or two I notice red flakes in it. Upon closer examination, It's Red Dot. Now the question is, do I try to sort it out (844 and Red Dot are very different looking) or just pour the whole 8lbs down the toilet?

[williamwaco]

Fertilizer

[warpspeed]

Exactly how would you sort it ?

[OnceFired]

Are you saying the container was mislabelled / re-filled with a different powder, or perhaps that you had already loaded with it? I am not following why the whole 8 lbs of powder would need to be tossed, otherwise. Please help me understand what you mean, since I am admittedly still a newbie.

[jdgabbard]

No, it looks like I emptied the remaining powder from my hopper back into it. I cut the top off and scooped the top off... Looks like I got most of it, but I'm sure there are a few flakes in there somewhere...

I think I got 99% of it, but now I'm trickling through powder to see if I see anymore.... This is gonna be a long night...

[TXGunNut]

Sounds like someone dumped Red Dot into the 844. I'd ask the guy about it, if possible. In theory you could possibly pour off the Red Dot but one .223 case charged with Red Dot doesn't sound like something I'd want to try. If the seller won't make it right I'd dump it in the yard.

[TXGunNut]

Oops, just read your last post. Join the club.

[jdgabbard]

Well, there wouldn't be that much red dot in it... I am seeing a few flakes every once in a while now... So I think I got it taken care of, just going to have to go through the entirety of it. Luckily there wasn't that much in there, and that they are two very distinct powders.

[snuffy]

Do you have a spatter screen for on top of a frying pan? It should have a fine enough weave to allow the WC-844 ball to fall through, but trap the red dot.

I got some WC-860 from high-tec, that had some stick powder dumped in with the ball. Rather than return it, I did the screen trick, got about ½ cup of stick powder from 8 # of the 860. I don't think the few sticks would have hurt anything, but who knows?

[BBQJOE]

Wait. you bought a jug of powder. Took it home. Opened it up and it was contaminated with another powder?
You then later post you contaminated it?

C'mon.

[Artful]

Wait. you bought a jug of powder. Took it home. Opened it up and it was contaminated with another powder?
You then later post you contaminated it?

C'mon.

So you have no errors, so you can throw stones - C'mon yourself.

I will freely admit, I have made error's and sympathize with him. :oops:

[Love Life]

Made some errors myself. Nothing like dumping your very well marked hopper of bullseye into your jug of unique....

Personally I would use your jug of powder as fertilizer, BUT if you can sift it well enough, give a really good shake, and then work up loads using it then why not?

[10mmShooter]

...no way I would try to separate it, chaulk in up to a lesson learned and pitch it. Only one keg of powder out on the bench at a time....no way to mix it up then. sorry for your loss :(

[Nickle]

We've all made mistakes, sometimes embarrassing or expensive ones at that.

Some admit it, some don't. I'm in the first group.

[jcwit]

Being as I'm not there and can not physically see the powder, nor do I have any first hand knowledge as to what actually happened its impossible for me to advise you as to what to do.

If in fact there is very little of the other "red dot" powder in the mix, maybe a half teaspoon to a teaspoon, in the 8 lb. jug I seriously doubt you would have any trouble, but with that said its impossible for me to know that.

Even then I would not use that 8 lb. jug for full/max loads.

[ValorsMinion]

I would toss it. When you compare the cost of your rifles to the cost of an 8lb jug I think the solution is pretty clear. Also, there is the (however small) risk of injury.

[trk]

I live just down the road from the Radford Army Ammunition Plant where powder is made in huge quantities.

All powders are blended blended and blended more.

It is in order to make each batch perform identically to the next. EXCEPT for military powders (which are blended within reason) - but each batch IS DIFFERENT.

I'd be GLAD to take it off your hands. I would then blend it (that is make the whole 8 lbs uniformly mixed) and then work up my loads with it.

Then, as with EVERY OTHER BATCH of WC844 you would make minor adjustments when switching to the next batch.

YMMV. But that is my offer.

[Kskybroom]

No, it looks like I emptied the remaining powder from my hopper back into it. I cut the top off and scooped the top off... Looks like I got most of it, but I'm sure there are a few flakes in there somewhere...

I think I got 99% of it, but now I'm trickling through powder to see if I see anymore.... This is gonna be a long night...

This works for me...
NEVER pour into a 8lb or 4lb jug..
ONLY pour into a 1lb jug...
From 8lb or 4lb or Hopper to 1lb ONLY....
From 1lb to Hopper Only...
From Hopper to 1lb Only.....
Does this make scents ??

[fatelk]

A big +1 to what jcwit said, for me.

[abqcaster]

No judgements here.... Glad you had the courage to post your mishap so we can all learn from it. You know your situation and your skill better than any of us. Hope it all works out.
-ABQ

[jdgabbard]

I sifted through it all. Luckily when I scooped off the top two pounds or so I only saw just a very few of the red dot flakes. Red or black... Afterwards, I blended very well, the took random samples throughout. I feel comfortable will, and plan on working up.

[Ben]

Just my opinion, but I like some of the others feel it would be best to toss it.

Ben

[Vinne]

A few flakes got mixed with a pound of another powder and my rounds shot fine.

[MaryB]

figure out the ratio of red dot to the other powder, then apply that to how much goes in a load... worst case is it burns a little faster. Might even ignite better and perform better.

[429421Cowboy]

I remember reading at some point about mil surp powder that was basically the same as Wc 844 except that it was for tracers and had red or pink flakes mixed in, could not that be what this was? (Maybe 844T but I know many here have used that and would know if it had red flakes in it) I am sure somebody else here has to know more about what I am talking about, unless you really are positive you mixed RD in it?

[jdgabbard]

No, Cowboy. I have a jug of red dot that was sitting right next to the 844... This was entirely my fault. I have mixed well, and removed what I believe to be well over 98% of the red dot from the powder. There are still a few flakes every now and then. But the amount of red dot left in the powder is so minor I seriously doubt there will be ANY change. I was able to salvage 6ish pounds out of 8. I'll just hand weigh the loads, and check the powder each time to ensure there is no density of it in there. Btw, I do remember dumping the powder in there. And it wasn't a huge amount. I probably dumped more then was actually needed...

[429421Cowboy]

Well that sucks man! But I agree that you should be able to work out a load and use it up safely, just bites to have to lose powder in times like these. Take care, stay safe,

[303Guy]

Red Dot is a large disc powder, right? You should be able to sieve out all the Red Dot with the right mesh strainer. Try with the contaminated two pounds first till you get it right.

[WILCO]

Thanks for sharing. Some good answers given. Wish I had a dime for every mistake I've made.

[onesonek]

Thanks for sharing. Some good answers given. Wish I had a dime for every mistake I've made.
You and me both!

[ku4hx]

Well, we've all done "dumb stuff" and quite frankly, it's nothing to be ashamed of. Not correcting the problem or moving ahead with a chancy situation is a whole different proposition.

If it were me, and it has been on a different scale, I'd spread the stuff on my wife's vegetable garden and never look back. If you try and reclaim it, you may never get the thought out of your mind you may have done it wrong.

Is it really worth the effort? Think of all the lead and brass you've lost over the years. This is really no different, just happening at a bit faster pace. And in my case, I can make myself sick on tomato slices on white bread slathered with Duke's Mayo ... hand loading of a slightly different persuasion aided by a good fertilizer.

[bikerbeans]

I've got a pound of H335/H110 if anybody is looking for some.:wink: Powder measure was clearly labeled as was the can of H335 when I dumped in the H110. I have kept it as a reminder so I don't do it again.

BB

[sirgknight]

I can't tell you how many times I have read posts like this over the years and put them on the "I'll NEVER DO THAT LIST", or "I'll add that to my DO LIST", or "that's a GREAT IDEA". Years ago, when I started reloading, I kept all of my powders on the bench in front of me, together. That's what all the reloaders that I knew did back then. It never occurred to me that it would be safer to segregate all powders from the reloading area except for the powder in use, until someone like jdgabbard came along and posted a mistake that he made. I'm thankful for the knowledge I've gained over the years from other's mistakes and mishaps. Oh, for sure, I've still made mistakes. I can't tell you how many times I've dumped shot or powder all over my bench when reloading shotshells. Call it whatever you want...."distraction, "daydreaming", "unattentiveness", "stupidity". Anyone who reloads for very long will eventually make mistakes and have mishaps. I wonder how many of us have really averted a disaster by reading and learning from the mistakes of others?

[mikeym1a]

Look at the burn rate chart. If they are close together, would it make a huge difference? I'd try to use it. You said you skimmed, and got most of it and what remains shot fine. Tragedy averted, waste stopped, life returns to balance. Too bad we can't do that with congress..............

[HDS]

To avoid problems such as I take it as a habit to keep all my power away from the loading bench, preferrably in a shelf or other storage, far enough one would have to get up and walk to the powder storage spot. Then only bring the proper can of powder to the table when working.

[sirgknight]

To avoid problems such as I take it as a habit to keep all my power away from the loading bench, preferrably in a shelf or other storage, far enough one would have to get up and walk to the powder storage spot. Then only bring the proper can of powder to the table when working.

Exactly....something like this.

[jonas302]

I did that very recently complete brain fart I pulled some cast 30-06 with red dot to get my bench cleared off and ready to load 223 then proceeded to dump 40 grains of red dot into 9 pounds of pro-varmit I was sick too not only was it expensive but I needed to load for a prairie dog hunt I tried to scoop most of it out then screened and visually checked the rest and shot it all

It was just a good reminder to stay organized

[jdgabbard]

Yeah, it upset me that I let myself get complacent enough to happen. But I managed I save the powder. And will just have to work up just like every other lot of 844. No worries, at worst it'll be a few fps faster. Not enough of the powder in there to cause any spikes.

[Cap'n Morgan]

Many years ago I scrapped several hundred shotgun shells which I had accumulated over the years. Shooting eiders in rough weather in open sea will cause shells to rust FAST and now I had this large stack of rusty rejects. There was all kind of brands, most 1-1/8 and 1-1/4 loads, I cut them all up, sorted the shot by size and dumped all of the non-flake powders. The rest of the flake powders (most European shells are loaded with flake powders) got mixed into one large batch and was reloaded together with the reclaimed shot in once-fired AA shells from the shooting range using new Winchester wads.

Now, this may sound like a foolhardy thing to do, but look at it this way: All the powders had pretty much the same burn rate and the same physical appearance, which meant they would blend into a uniform mix and not separate because of size. I settled on a 1-1/8 ounce load based on pure guesstimate and never worried for a second. Powders should be treated with respect, but it's not voodoo or black magic - just a matter of applying commonsense.

[hickfu]

This works for me...
NEVER pour into a 8lb or 4lb jug..
ONLY pour into a 1lb jug...
From 8lb or 4lb or Hopper to 1lb ONLY....
From 1lb to Hopper Only...
From Hopper to 1lb Only.....
Does this make scents ??

Good advice! I have 3 different powders I use for my 45-70 rounds so I leave the 8# jugs under the bench and have see-through containers to put around 3/4 # of powder in that I keep on a shelf above the bench. All 3 powders look different (2400, IMR-3031, H322) and I hand measure each and every one so no chance of over charge either, I never have to dump powder back into any container. I understand how it can happen with guys that use powder throws on a progressive press, and some day I will get to reloading for my 9mm, 45acp and maybe the 380 so its good to read threads like this that remind you to be ever vigilant when dealing with gun powder!

Im just glad the OP caught this before something bad happened to him or someone he loves, And thank you for posting this.... It take a big man to admit a mistake knowing he can get ridiculed.


Doc

[Reverend Al]

You might be able to use an old shotgun reloader's trick ... When you spill and mix up shot and powder and want to salvage them you pour the mixture slowly over a sheet of medium coarse sandpaper and the powder will stick to the sandpaper and the shot rolls off. With 844 and Red Dot you might get the same basic effect with the flakes sticking to the sandpaper and the ball powder rolling off into a "catch tray"? Might be worth a try ...

[303Guy]

It take a big man to admit a mistake knowing he can get ridiculed.Aah, but who would cast the first stone? Not I, that's for sure. I've made bigger mistakes than this one! (Although I hate admitting it;-)). In fact, I know of no man who has never made an error in his life. I've got two powder measures and I've been known to dump powder from one into the other while calibrating the charge! I've changed my ways - now I do leave powder in both and I tape the lid down on the one not in use. I've also discovered the logic of having only the powder in use on the bench. I've gone a step further and only have powders that look different from each other. I make mistakes too easily so I triplicate my safety measures. I've gone so far that I cannot bring myself to seat a boolit without placing the charged case in the case try and shining a light into it for a check. If I get side-tracked in anyway I simply place the case back in the tray and check it again. I get side-tracked easily.[smilie=1:

[uscra112]

Judging only by MY jug of 844, it needs a little booster to make it light! I even had a small batch of "less-than-casefull" loads for my K31 a couple months ago that went click...bang. If I have cause to use it again in anything but the .223, I will probably duplex it with 2-3 grains of .... Red Dot. And use magnum primers.

[jdgabbard]

Judging only by MY jug of 844, it needs a little booster to make it light! I even had a small batch of "less-than-casefull" loads for my K31 a couple months ago that went click...bang. If I have cause to use it again in anything but the .223, I will probably duplex it with 2-3 grains of .... Red Dot. And use magnum primers.

Well, I went ahead and loaded up some cases with 23gr last night. I figure that is about as good of a starting load as any, considering my data for 844 shows that it can be loaded to 30gr. There was plenty of room left in the case for it too...

[jdgabbard]

After having dumped the top of the jug, blending, and loading up 23gr of powder under 55gr FMJBT pills, it shot accurate, and ejected reliably just to the right of me. Going to work up to, probably, 26gr and call it good. Btw, this was shot in a A1 clone.

[rogn]

This happens, Ive done it too. Working with a check list, sorta like the carpenters, and machinists measure twice and cut once. We get a bit distracted or hurried and there we are . Fortunately this situation wasnt serious. The last issue of this type my son dumped a couple hundred grains of large ball into a pound of small ball(think 2520). I dug around until I found a mesh size, this in a kitchen stainer, and separated the two about 100% as far as the sampling could prove. Any minute contamination is really insignificant as long as we stay off "threshold" loads.
As an a side perhaps we should post the definition of "hubris" in the sticky column.

[BCB]

No, it looks like I emptied the remaining powder from my hopper back into it. I cut the top off and scooped the top off... Looks like I got most of it, but I'm sure there are a few flakes in there somewhere...

I think I got 99% of it, but now I'm trickling through powder to see if I see anymore.... This is gonna be a long night...


When you say you think you got 99% of it removed, how much do you think you dumped into it in the beginning?...

Is it a full 8 pounds or very close to that?...

If there might only be a tablespoon or there about, I bet I would thoroughly mix it and give a real minimum load a try...

That's just me and not advice to you...

Good-luck...BCB

[**oneshot**]

wasted a fresh pound of powder(4198) once, and so far only once. Me personally didn't want to take the chance of residue from the faster powder mixed with the slower powder so I dumped it.

[pipehand]

I'm glad you all caught the powder goofups. I contaminated some Varget with HP-38, and shattered an AR-15. Pulled 300 jacketed bullets and found 4 rounds that had HP-38 mixed in. Good time release high nitrogen fertilizer.

[jdgabbard]

Yeah, mine turns out to be a pretty decent loading. When I poured the powder back into the new jugs I bought online I spotted two red flakes while I poured into the funnel into the jug. I had tossed about a quart size mason jar and a third from the top of the jug, and the first mason clearly showed the powder in there. I seem to remember doing it, and seem to remember the hopper being about 1/4 to 1/3 full. Not a lot really. But more than enough to make me want to scoop it off. All is goo now. Learned a valuable lesson, that luckily didn't cost me too much pocket money or any of my digits.

[45 Bravo]

I look at it this way... 30,000-50,000 psi going off 5 inches from my face...

If it is contaminated, dump it.
My life and apendages are worth more than 8 pounds of powder..

[jdgabbard]

I look at it this way... 30,000-50,000 psi going off 5 inches from my face...

If it is contaminated, dump it.
My life and apendages are worth more than 8 pounds of powder..

And lots of gun writers of old have talked about blending powders... I took proper precautions. And the two powders are QUITE distinct in visual appearance, which I also sifted through to inspect. Do what you feel comfortable with. I feel perfectly comfortable with my decision.

[hardy]

Hmmm,844,Red Dot and a pinch of medium sandpaper grit.Sounds like something from Paula Deen,s , as yet
unpublished",A Recipe for Disaster" LOL!!! mike

[40-82 hiker]

Recently picked up an 8lb jug of wc844 from a guy. Took it home and sat it on the shelf next to my other jugs. Opened it up today to do some loading with it now that I have some 55gr FMJBT, and after a scoop or two I notice red flakes in it. Upon closer examination, It's Red Dot. Now the question is, do I try to sort it out (844 and Red Dot are very different looking) or just pour the whole 8lbs down the toilet?

Whatever happened to cause this, in my book it is now fertilizer. That is, unless you want to go into R&D with a new powder and have a ballistics lab handy. Just MHO...

[Lights]

Been there myself bro. I dumped W231 into my H335:x:-(:roll: Just chuck it. It is not worth what could happen by using it.

[outdoorfan]

And lots of gun writers of old have talked about blending powders... I took proper precautions. And the two powders are QUITE distinct in visual appearance, which I also sifted through to inspect. Do what you feel comfortable with. I feel perfectly comfortable with my decision.


I agree. In this situation, I would have done what you did.

[snuffy]

Do you have a spatter screen for on top of a frying pan? It should have a fine enough weave to allow the WC-844 ball to fall through, but trap the red dot.

I got some WC-860 from high-tec, that had some stick powder dumped in with the ball. Rather than return it, I did the screen trick, got about ½ cup of stick powder from 8 # of the 860. I don't think the few sticks would have hurt anything, but who knows?


Red Dot is a large disc powder, right? You should be able to sieve out all the Red Dot with the right mesh strainer. Try with the contaminated two pounds first till you get it right.

I have both powders and a couple of screens, sieves, mesh strainers, woven metal filters. I will mix equal amounts,(how about 100 grains), then separate them. It's because the two powders are completely different compositions that makes it possible to separate them. It's just sad to waste components these days.


But that's just what I would do. I think outside the box whenever possible. I completely agree that if 2 different ball powders were to be mixed, it's fertilizer, or because of the season, a great fireworks display when piled on the ground and lit!

[303Guy]

Not suggesting anyone should try this but I did once duplex H4227 with Varget in my hornet. I tried keeping it segregated and mixed. The results were different but I don't remember the details. I discovered Lil'Gun so didn't need to pursue the duplexing/blending. I should have tried Red Dot with the Varget ... [smilie=1: The hornet is a case on its own - very small. In fact, I wouldn't dare! Anyway, Lil'Gun produces way more pressure than did my 'blending' or duplexing.

[wmitty]

I accidently dumped several hundred grains of Unique into a container of H-335 awhile back. I was able to salvage both powders by running the mix thru a set of sieves at work which are used in checking gradation of aggregates (sand and gravel) to be used in concrete. If it had been two ball powders of similar dimensions, but different burning rates, I don't see an easy solution to separating them.

[huntrick64]

The way my luck goes, if I just blended it I would end up with 8 lbs of the most accurate powder available to man without any idea how to recreate it. Kind of like making homemade bullet lubes. Something accidentally happens during the process and you end up with the perfect lube that can't be duplicated.

Good luck if you decide to proceed with that powder.

[snuffy]

quote from my post #57; "I have both powders and a couple of screens, sieves, mesh strainers, woven metal filters. I will mix equal amounts,(how about 100 grains), then separate them. It's because the two powders are completely different compositions that makes it possible to separate them. It's just sad to waste components these days."

Well, not so good! The frying pan splatter screen I have is too small of a mesh. About half of the WC-844 I have is too big to pass through. Of course it's way too small for ANY of the red-dot to pass through, so that part of it is good to go. But it's a PITA to work those larger chunks of ball powder through.

It's pretty common for ball powder to be irregular in size. Take a magnifier to just about any of it, you'll see some of it is round, some flattened, in the case of WW-231 it's mostly flattened balls.

IF I had another slightly larger size mesh, it would work really well to separate the red-dot from the WC-844. Wmitty has exactly what would be needed. I'll check out the kitchen housewares aisle the next time I shop, I bet I'll find some strainers that will really work well!

[shooterg]

Me, I don't have but so many calibers and powders, so I pretty much have a dedicated measure for each powder - and I load until they're empty, so to date I've never returned powder to a container.
I have relabeled 1 pounders and filled from an 8 pounder for different reasons. I think the OP is probably good to go. But hope not to be reading about him in the papers !

[jdgabbard]

Whatever happened to cause this, in my book it is now fertilizer. That is, unless you want to go into R&D with a new powder and have a ballistics lab handy. Just MHO...

Everybody keeps saying this. And that's fine. Do what you think you would do. But let me say this. Red dot, like unique is frequently used in rifle loads. A common charge is 13grs under just about any .30 boolit.

The volume that I'm using for the wc-844, if loaded with straight red dot, is right at 8.5gr. Now considering that the published max load of red dot is 9.3gr, and the fact that my current loading is well below published max(actually close to minimum) for use with 844/h335, and the fact that the two powders are so cosmetically different and I inspected the powder visually while I sifted through the remainder. I see very little if any way at all that this loading would be dangerous by the small change in burn rate that less than a 1/4tsp would change 6ish pounds of powder.

[youngda9]

Fertalizer.

Then you need to find this guy and have some words with him.

[foxtrapper]

Take one 4 lb jug of 296 add 1 powder measure of 231 equals 4lbs of fertilizer. Yep I did it!

[jcwit]

I've gotten into the same never ending argument over dumping the remainder of a bottle of H4895 amounting to less than 15 grains to a full unopened 8 lb. jug of IMR 4895. These two powders are very close to the same burn rate.

While I don't recommend mixing different powders, the mixing of an extremely small percentage of one to the other with very close burn rates seems to be a non issue.

[jdgabbard]

I've gotten into the same never ending argument over dumping the remainder of a bottle of H4895 amounting to less than 15 grains to a full unopened 8 lb. jug of IMR 4895. These two powders are very close to the same burn rate.

While I don't recommend mixing different powders, the mixing of an extremely small percentage of one to the other with very close burn rates seems to be a non issue.

Yeah, at this point I've already blended and shot the powder. If there is any noticeable difference in burn rate, I can't tell. Powder shot great at 23.0gr, and I have loaded up some 24.5gr loads to check those. Provided they shoot well, I'll be leaving the powder measure set to it and turning out 900rds of ammo with it. The remainder will get shelved, and used at a later time.

[Porterhouse]

jdgabbard,
Congrat! I just found this thread and grad I did. I really respect man like you. You made mistake, asked for some advice, got great ones and solved the problem. I love your logical approach. Giving up is the easiest solution on any matter. I haven't heard we have serious fertilizer shortage anyways.

[jonk]

I accidentally poured some 2400 into a jug of 872 once.. it's still sitting in there. At some point it is my intent to carefully cut it off at the powder level and scoop out the top pound of powder, then blend it well. Given how slow the powder is and the fact that I often duplex it, I'm figuring any remaining kernels shouldn't cause issue, but I'm going to be very careful working with it.

However, YMMV, and it's your decision.