simple Hi-Tek coating

[Stephen Cohen]

Following.

I'm going to compare no gc / gc in revolvers with the above bullet.

When I shot pistol I shot a lot of silly wets with my 686 with both 180gr RCBS GC and RCBS 158gr GC and found no gain in using gas checks accuracy wise, but those days I had not heard of Hi-Tek, I also shot a lot of steel challenge with my 45 Auto and 230gr RCBS gas check design, I actually found much better accuracy with that bullet without the checks as many others also did. I still have that 230gr mould and I have removed the gas check ring and it shoots a dream in brothers 45 auto and his 460 SW. I don't claim to know it all but Hi-Tek has improved the accuracy of all loads I use and I don't have to deal with greasy lubes any more. I also believe that Hi-Tek allows the use of alloys that may have been marginal in the old lube days. I also think powder selection is more important than gas checks. A lot of what we all knew before Hi-Tek is no longer relevant in my view. I have cast some 320gr plain base .452 for my brothers 460sw out of 50 50 clip on and stick on wheel weights with no extra tin to see what difference it makes to present loads, I am tipping none. Regards Stephen

[Petander]

I also believe that Hi-Tek allows the use of alloys that may have been marginal in the old lube days. I also think powder selection is more important than gas checks. A lot of what we all knew before Hi-Tek is no longer relevant in my view.

That's why I keep on experimenting. Even though I never knew much. But now,like when I tried a 325 grain NLG & No Crimp Groove bullet in 500 S&W, up to max load 1600 fps 3" barrel. I still cant believe it is completely clean. I force crimp with Lee collet crimp, TMG Gold just works. 50k psi. 14-16 BHN.

I keep parroting these loads.

And NLG molds are so nice to cast with. Bullets drop easily. Bla bla bedtime here good night life is good.

[Tazza]

I have found the same thing, the fewer grooves, the easier they drop out.

Have you tried different coatings with the same load and projectile? It would be interesting to see if a regular non metalic will also keep your barrel lead free at these speeds.

Good night, enjoy your nap.

[Stephen Cohen]

I have found the same thing, the fewer grooves, the easier they drop out.

Have you tried different coatings with the same load and projectile? It would be interesting to see if a regular non metalic will also keep your barrel lead free at these speeds.

Good night, enjoy your nap.

I have to admit I had a real love for the earlier gold and for some reason it just looked so good and worked wonders, but I have not found any difference in all the metallic colours I have used. I presently have some Candy apple Red and like it also and can't say it works any different in my loads as yet, the real test will be some I cast for my brother and his 460sw which is a test worthy platform. I have done some Candy Apple Red for friends 9mm and all seems well, I generally find the 9mm will show any short comings a coating has. The one thing that is the same for coating and lube is bullet fit. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

Looking forward to hearing how your brother goes with them

I do like the look of candy apple, i may get some next time to try

I have some very fussy cast in 158 fp, the drop a little large for coating, so i have to coat once, size with an over sized die then 2 more coats then size at the correct size. If i don't, some lock up the sizer, it sure works for it. Doing it this way will knock off a little coating on the initial size, the extra 2 coats fix that and they look just right.

[Petander]

Have you tried different coatings with the same load and projectile? It would be interesting to see if a regular non metalic will also keep your barrel lead free at these speeds.


I already had quite a few colours,used them for a year, when I stumbled into TMG Gold. It may be my contaminated alloy but TMG Gold gives me the best coating of all the colours. It's never "dry looking" neither flaking, always glass-like,elastic,tough. Idiot-proof to bake with only slight colour change. None of the others give me that elasticity. Candy Apple is another one that I have used for 500 S&W. And "Normal" Gold for Marlin 45-70... can't remember.

So I'm fine with TMG Gold alone for now... especially if I can still find some. Zombie Green for example will not bond to my alloy at all,no matter how I HCL soak or whatever. By now I know it's not me or my technique - and I started with Zombie Green...

I just made Candy Apple 357 bullets using my TMG bake which takes bullets up to 190 °C @ 5 min, I then bake until 9 min is up, some bullets are 200°C by then. It's the radiant heat. Candy goes brown. I know,I should bake shorter and not too hot but I get excellent TMG Gold bullets this way. Every now and then it's good to stop testing and just go shooting.

My next test will be TMG Gold as a primer first coat for other colours to follow.

[Tazza]

When you find one that works for you, no reason to change it.

I started with 122 red and K15 black. I had a few issues with 122, only because i tried to cook too many at once, and you could see between coats that some were far lighter than others that i assume had not fully cured. The black was never an issue, cause the projectiles i cooked in black were smaller, i just do smaller batches now and all are cured correctly. Thankfully I have no bonding issues using recycled range scrap or wheel weights, so it works for me.

[Petander]

When you find one that works for you, no reason to change it..

Yes,with TMG Gold I can appoly the liquid by feel, squirt without measuring. It's so forgiving. A thick first coat is no problem. And I can bake without timer,using only my nose and eyes. TMG Gold has a different baking smell than the others.

Here is Red I just got. Obviously too dark but works.

https://i.postimg.cc/rmwF1H9S/IMG-20191121-000352-187.jpg

[Tazza]

Shows you have been coating for way too long, i still measure and time mine. I can tell by looking of they are cooked or not, if they look sticky, they need longer. When you get a whiff of the smoke of when they are curing, i know i have about 5 minutes left. I have a sense of when they are ready, but i trust my timer more :)

[Petander]

Yeah it's the nine minute 190°C bake that I described above. It shoots fine. And that bake gives a good colour for TMG Gold.

I'll heat treat this even darker,sorry Joe.

[Tazza]

I'll heat treat this even darker,sorry Joe.

I'm sure he won't care, it shows what his magic coating dust can actually do :)

[slide]

I am not an expert but I see a lot of guys guessing at how long to bake bullets or when to start the time of baking. I can't take all the credit for this,it came out of the mind of Ausglock. A while back he mentioned drilling a hole in the bottom of a bullet and sticking a thermometer in to measure temp. Got me to thinking. I drilled a hole in the bottom of a coated bullet. Joe advised me that a coated bullet won't heat as fast as bare lead. Using a digital thermometer I inserted the thermocouple in the bullet and secured it with high heat aluminum tape. You could probably solder it. This thermocouple bullet goes in with the batch of bullets to bake. I put it in when the bullets are warming on top of the oven. When they hit about 120F in they go. When the temp reaches 360F I start a timer counting down from four minutes. 360F is when Joe says the coating starts to set. I try to keep my oven at a high of 385F. You could adjust the time if needed. This has taken all the guesswork out of it. I am sorry but I can't post photos on the forum . I shared this idea with Avenger442 and maybe he can post some photos of his setup. These digital thermometers can be bought on amazon and I used a multi tester from Wal mart that works well. The thermocouple lead is thin enough that it will not interfere with the closing and sealing of the oven door. Hopes this helps and it proves one thing. Ausglock does have a brain!!

[Stephen Cohen]

Yes Slide I think we all agree Ausglock put us all on the right track and saved us a lot of heartache, but do be careful with giving him the ego boost as his head may swell and that brain may just get out of hand, hehehe. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

Yes Slide I think we all agree Ausglock put us all on the right track and saved us a lot of heartache, but do be careful with giving him the ego boost as his head may swell and that brain may just get out of hand, hehehe. Regards Stephen

I was going to say the same thing, but more along the lines of depends on who you ask, if he had been mean to them or not :)

[Ausglock]

You clowns... That is enough sucking up.
The old Hungarian grump will get jealous and stop making coating...

[Petander]

Ha ha...

That bullet-probe thing is a good one. Especially when you put three and notice they all read differently,I have the lowest reading in the center of the bullet pile. My basic TMG bake, bullets are 180-190 C @ 5 min, then they go up to 190-200 C @ 9 min. Coolest ones in the middle. Oven temp is 190, verified by two oven thermoneters. Radiant heat at work.

IR meters are handy.

[HI-TEK]

Years ago, when the HI-TEK was introduced into the US, it was advertised that the coating is a very good heat shield and reflects heat. No one believed that claim, and some did their own testing to prove or disprove heat reflecting ability of the coating.

This is the video of test done. It certainly shows that heat is not permitted to enter alloy by the coating and alloy is insulated even from molten Lead.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6xfaIp4RVEjbLTV4m25gzQ

heat test video

It also prompted some research, to determine how fast heat travels into plain lead, and how much heat transfer rate is slowed with coatings on the Lead. That is when the probe in the rear of a projectiles was used.
Uncoated Cast heated up quickly, but the coated Cast heated up much more slowly in the same oven settings.
That basically proved claim of coatings having heat reflecting property.

[Tazza]

You clowns... That is enough sucking up.
The old Hungarian grump will get jealous and stop making coating...

With all the grief you give him, someone needs to suck up to make him feel better and keep making the magical coating powder for us :)

[Petander]

40 min in 200°C gave me Deep Purple.


https://i.postimg.cc/ZqKyjxmS/IMG-20191121-222540-830.jpg

Water dropped , these will be 14-16 BHN in a few days. Led Zeppelin next?

[dikman]

Petander, that colour red is close enough to the colour I'm getting. As you say, it works, which is all that matters. The purple looks nice, might have to try that. Wonder if you'd get the same result by bumping up the temp instead of a long bake time?

[slide]

Joe, this kinda backs up your last post. I took two digital themometers with thermocouples. One with a bullet attached one was bare. Both were put in with a batch of bullets. When the one with the bullet reached 360F the bare one read 376F. There was a least 10F difference during the four minute countdown. I know these thermometers are correct. My son owns a water testing lab and we have a tech guy come every six months and check our thermometers and scales,calibrate them if necessary and certify them. I asked him if he would check these thermometers which he did. He said they were on the money. I realize it is only a crude test. Any suggestions?

[Petander]

Petander, that colour red is close enough to the colour I'm getting. As you say, it works, which is all that matters. The purple looks nice, might have to try that. Wonder if you'd get the same result by bumping up the temp instead of a long bake time?

The long bake time is for heat treating,it's easier to keep lower temp (200°C) and have a longer time marginal for the required BHN. 14-16 for rifle in this case. Higher temps generally turn colors black faster. And obviously give a higher BHN which I don't want.

My bullets go to 210-220 C (425F)then.

EDIT: This chart is for WW,my alloy in question is 50 pure/50 WW.

https://i.postimg.cc/130Zy4tC/IMG-20191122-000055-661.jpg

[HI-TEK]

Joe, this kinda backs up your last post. I took two digital themometers with thermocouples. I realize it is only a crude test. Any suggestions?

Slide,
To test temperature rise comparison between coated and non coated cast, it would be great if you can say set up an oven at 180C. Bore a hole into non coated cast, and also in a single coated cast and insert probes into bases. Place them onto the oven. Start to record temperatures, say at every 30 seconds until they both stabilise with temperature.
Repeat this with plain alloy and twice coated cast.
Repeat again with 3 times coated cast and non coated cast.
This should provide a temperature rise profile that can be plotted on a graph temperature versus time. It should reveal just how much the coating slows down the heat transfer with each coat.
Please advise
Joe

[Petander]

I wonder how much temp variation everyone else is getting?

IR meters may not read the absolute truth (reflective coating) but relative hot/cold spots are easy to find. My variation (My 5 lbs accuracy bake setting) is 10° C @ 4.30 min, then all my bullets are 180-190 °C. Hot spot is on the right side,coolest in the middle and medium on the left side. I let them go to 8 min.

https://i.postimg.cc/Z5CscvFn/IMG-20191122-142859.jpg

I do bake 10 lbs quite often,just give a few more minutes and a tad more temp to begin with,TMG Gold is very tolerant.

[slide]

Give me a few days and I will give it a try. I thought of something. Do the hi-tek coated bullets need to be the same color?

[Petander]

Give me a few days and I will give it a try. I thought of something. Do the hi-tek coated bullets need to be the same color?

I would use one color,less possible variables that way.

https://i.postimg.cc/VsZjZdkb/IMG-20191122-202557-572.jpg

[slide]

After I posted that question and looked at it I thought DUH! slide. What are you thinking. Joe ,I am going with the gold 1035. Like a lot of folks it is my favorite.

[HI-TEK]

Give me a few days and I will give it a try. I thought of something. Do the hi-tek coated bullets need to be the same color?

Slide,
To get results on a particular coating, simply do the test with same colour of choice.
You can always repeat tests using different colours as a comparison.
My guess is, that all metallic colours should exhibit very similar heat transfer rates.
They should also reduce heat transfer rate at similar rates, as compared to plain Lead.
Plain coloured coatings will also reduce heat transfer rates, but a guess is that they will be only marginally less than the metallic. May be, the tests will tell all, or may be not.
Love experiments like this as it reveals the reality.
Another variable is coating thicknesses.
Most put on about an average of 1 thou per coating. So two coats will be 2 thou and three coats will be 3 thou.
Results then can be tabled as heat transfer rates per thou of an inch.
My guess is, that as thickness of coatings increases, that will slow down heat transfer rates into the alloy also.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Petander;4767954]I wonder how much temp variation everyone else is getting?

IR meters may not read the absolute truth (reflective coating) but relative hot/cold spots are easy to find. My variation (My 5 lbs accuracy bake setting) is 10° C @ 4.30 min, then all my bullets are 180-190 °C. Hot spot is on the right side,coolest in the middle and medium on the left side. I let them go to 8 min.

Petander,
these sort of heat variations in ovens are quite normal, especially when air circulation is inadequate or non existent.
I have always recommended fan forced air in ovens, and the fan forced air is faster the better, like a mini cyclone.
That sorts out hot and cold spots, and product comes out very even in colour and bakes very evenly.
I have seen baked projectiles come out of same tray, some pass solvent test, and others fail.
This was directly due to uneven heat distribution inside oven.
I saw years ago, a conveyor oven, where thermometer said 200C, the tray of coated cast went through in about 10 minutes, but when tray was exiting oven, the casts on edges of tray were molten Lead, and in the middle it was not baked. That is how much heat variation was inside oven without fan forced air circulation. Measuring air, is no guarantee what is temperature of the product being baked, unless that air is a mini cyclone around the load being baked.

[Petander]

[QUOTE=Petander;4767954]I wonder how much temp variation everyone else is getting?

IR meters may not read the absolute truth (reflective coating) but relative hot/cold spots are easy to find. My variation (My 5 lbs accuracy bake setting) is 10° C @ 4.30 min, then all my bullets are 180-190 °C. Hot spot is on the right side,coolest in the middle and medium on the left side. I let them go to 8 min.

Petander,
these sort of heat variations in ovens are quite normal, especially when air circulation is inadequate or non existent.
I have always recommended fan forced air in ovens, and the fan forced air is faster the better, like a mini cyclone.
That sorts out hot and cold spots, and product comes out very even in colour and bakes very evenly.
I have seen baked projectiles come out of same tray, some pass solvent test, and others fail.
This was directly due to uneven heat distribution inside oven.
I saw years ago, a conveyor oven, where thermometer said 200C, the tray of coated cast went through in about 10 minutes, but when tray was exiting oven, the casts on edges of tray were molten Lead, and in the middle it was not baked. That is how much heat variation was inside oven without fan forced air circulation. Measuring air, is no guarantee what is temperature of the product being baked, unless that air is a mini cyclone around the load being baked.

Yes,mine is a 2,2 kilowatt household wall oven with two fans. A no-fan oven gives quite a bit of colour variation. Got one,too. And a 600 watt mini toaster,a complete joke.

[Petander]

What is "TMG" short for in TMG Gold?

https://i.postimg.cc/QNfKhwrR/IMG-20191123-164826.jpg

[slide]

Joe, I sent the test results to your gmail address. I couldn't get the pm to work. You got two emails. I had a power surge just as I sent the results. I hope it got through. If not I will send again. I hope it helps.

[HI-TEK]

Joe, I sent the test results to your gmail address. I couldn't get the pm to work. You got two emails. I had a power surge just as I sent the results. I hope it got through. If not I will send again. I hope it helps.

Hello Slide,
Thanks much, the results you sent by email has arrived OK.
You did a great job with this.
Results you obtained, definitely confirm that coating slows down heat transfer rates to the alloy.
Great work, and thanks much.
I am going to try and put it onto graph paper so it is a visual comparison between Lead and coated Lead temperatures from start to finish.

[HI-TEK]

What is "TMG" short for in TMG Gold?

https://i.postimg.cc/QNfKhwrR/IMG-20191123-164826.jpg

Petander,
That is the code that was used to differentiate this gold from the many others we have.
There is Solar Gold, Aztec Gold, Glitter Gold, Antique Gold, Gold 1035, Sunny Gold and Old Gold.
These all work just great and were specifically made for commercial casters who wanted their unique colour.
The TMG came about due to people wanting a much brighter gold and the TMG Gold has a different makeup composition with trying to obtain the brightness.
Down side is, that ingredients for the TMG Gold are very expensive, and may not be commercially viable.

[Petander]

Petander,
Down side is, that ingredients for the TMG Gold are very expensive, and may not be commercially viable.

Yes we have talked about this. I still would like a kilo because my high pressure/velocity developments all used TMG,it absolutely shines. Even though I still don't know what "TMG" means... "Too Much Green?" Or "To Markku with Greatness?"

Here in Finland coating cost is nothing compared to primers and powder. I want the best whenever possible,not cheap. Niobium,my alloy contaminant, may have a role here.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Petander;4769020]
Even though I still don't know what "TMG" means... "Too Much Green?" Or "To Markku with Greatness?"

Petander,
you were closer with the "Green" as ingredients introduced a Green tone to the gold colour.

To know formula, it is simple, just buy the whole technology, and you will have all revealed.

[Tazza]

To know formula, it is simple, just buy the whole technology, and you will have all revealed.

I'll bid you $200, am i close? :)

Are you out of danger with the fires? it's still dry as up here and windy, lots of smoke haze, gives awesome sunrises and sunsets, but i don't want the flames.

My grass is nice and yellow, just looking at it sideways i swear it could catch fire.

[Petander]

[QUOTE=Petander;4769020]

To know formula, it is simple, just buy the whole technology, and you will have all revealed.

Thank you for the generous offer but I better pass.

Reminds me of working in a recording studio once. Band walks in "You have all this equipment, make us sound like Van Halen!"

I said : "To sound like Van Halen,you have to PLAY like Van Halen".

[Tazza]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;4769030]

Thank you for the generous offer but I better pass.

Reminds me of working in a recording studio once. Band walks in "You have all this equipment, make us sound like Van Halen!"

I said : "To sound like Van Halen,you have to PLAY like Van Halen".

hehe nice, i bet some people are serious, they think all the fancy audio gear can make anyone sound awesome, if that was true, you wouldn't have worked at a studio, you'd be recording your own stuff :)

[Petander]

[QUOTE=Petander;4769263]

if that was true, you wouldn't have worked at a studio, you'd be recording your own stuff :).

I've been mostly working on my own stuff for decades indeed.

But I can not use a coating formula. What would be a minimum order for The Original TMG Gold? So that making a new batch would make sense to Joe,too?

It is The King of rifle/hi pressure coatings.

[Ausglock]

I don't know about that.
The Kryptonite Green has been used at high velocities and held up fine. 2600fps in 7.62x51 (308Win)

[Stephen Cohen]

[QUOTE=Petander;4769263]

hehe nice, i bet some people are serious, they think all the fancy audio gear can make anyone sound awesome, if that was true, you wouldn't have worked at a studio, you'd be recording your own stuff :)

I remember hearing Johnny O'keefe sing without his magic electricals and he sounded like he had his throat cut, maybe he always sounded like that. Regards Stephen

[karla]

[QUOTE=Petander;4769020]
Even though I still don't know what "TMG" means... "Too Much Green?" Or "To Markku with Greatness?"

Petander,
you were closer with the "Green" as ingredients introduced a Green tone to the gold colour.

To know formula, it is simple, just buy the whole technology, and you will have all revealed.


Hi All,

Being new to this coating technology, can you advise where I can buy some of the powder. I am in Hervey Bay but travel regularly to Brisbane.

Cheers, KarlA.

[Petander]

I don't know about that.
The Kryptonite Green has been used at high velocities and held up fine. 2600fps in 7.62x51 (308Win)

Yeah I'm not saying that other colours are not working,too. There's just so many colours to test and after two years testing I found mine in TMG Gold, using my (Niobium contaminated) alloy and my (radiant heat) bake. I may be doing mistakes but TMG Gold doesn't care.

An example: I have eight? other colours and none can be force crimped without a crimp groove like TMG Gold can. I crimp grooveless 500 S&W bullets with a collet crimper,making the groove when I crimp. Pull the bullet,every other colour breaks or suffers one way or anotner,TMG Gold stays elastic and tough in the groove,still encapsulating the whole bullet. Shoots clean +50k psi.

I'm willing to test new colours but I hate the idea of starting from scratch, trying to equal my TMG Gold results with something "cheaper". This is a crazy World, come up with an excellent product and then people want it "cheaper".

TMG Gold is good for full house 45-70 and 500 S&W and 357 Mag with two coats. Even the first coat can be applied thicker than the other colours. How many coats does a kilo make?

[slide]

karla, Hi-Tek or Ausglock can help you with the coating. They will be along.

[Tazza]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;4769030]


Hi All,

Being new to this coating technology, can you advise where I can buy some of the powder. I am in Hervey Bay but travel regularly to Brisbane.

Cheers, KarlA.

Message Hi-Tek, his name is Joe, he is the one that makes it. He is is northern NSW and will post Australia wide.

[Petander]

https://i.postimg.cc/85Tm92Ck/Screenshot-20191125-220305.png

[Ausglock]

Karl.

Give the cranky old coot a call. He has been threatened by bushfires near him, but is now back.

Hervey Bay.....My sister lives up there. We are heading up there in early Jan for her wedding.

Petander. The Kryptonite does the same when crimped. no cutting or breaking of the coating. I collet crimp heavy when loading my 357Sig. Pulled bullets show a deep groove with no cut of the coating.

[Tazza]

Karl.

Give the cranky old coot a call. He has been threatened by bushfires near him, but is now back.



He is only cranky when talking with Trevor :)

Contrary to the fun Trevor pokes at him, he is a nice bloke to have a chat with.

[karla]

Excellent, thank you gentlemen for the info. I will give him a call.

Cheers, KarlA.

[Petander]

Petander. The Kryptonite does the same when crimped. no cutting or breaking of the coating. I collet crimp heavy when loading my 357Sig. Pulled bullets show a deep groove with no cut of the coating.

Good info,thank you for this.

Relieves my panic,now I just need Krypto to try.

[Gremlin460]

He is only cranky when talking with Trevor :)

Contrary to the fun Trevor pokes at him, he is a nice bloke to have a chat with.

Not too sure about that, last time I rang him at 2.30am he was a cranky old sod!. OK I forgot about daylight saving.

[Tazza]

Not too sure about that, last time I rang him at 2.30am he was a cranky old sod!. OK I forgot about daylight saving.

haha That sounds more like a Trevor thing to do, just cause he can.

[Stephen Cohen]

Not too sure about that, last time I rang him at 2.30am he was a cranky old sod!. OK I forgot about daylight saving.

2.30am in Brisbane is 3.30am in NSW and 11.30 pm in WA, I think you more than forgot daylight saving. Were you surprised he was cranky, I guess you wont get your xmas present of free coating haha. Regards Stephen

[Ausglock]

The Old bugger doesn't go to bed until 4AM. He is up all the small hours ringing overseas and emailing.
Ring him at 9:30 am and he is still in bed...

[jsizemore]

I bet he's staying up to watch live Jerry Springer.

[Avenger442]

Does anybody actually watch Jerry Springer?

Will get back to working with the blue coating in a few days when family time is over.

[ioon44]

If anybody actually watches Jerry Springer they probably won't admit it.

[Petander]

TMG Gold,just got a new Mihec 45-70 group buy mold.

https://i.postimg.cc/BbjR3dLj/IMG-20191130-120957-466.jpg

[Michael J. Spangler]

TMG Gold,just got a new Mihec 45-70 group buy mold.

https://i.postimg.cc/BbjR3dLj/IMG-20191130-120957-466.jpg

Boy that’s sweet looking!

[Elkins45]

Can someone please remind me again which of the powders are the metallic ones.

[Ausglock]

Red Copper
Bronze 500
Bronze 502
Gold 1035
TMG Gold
Sunny Gold
Old Gold
Kryptonite Green
Texas Tea
Candy Apple

[Elkins45]

Thanks.

I don’t see TMG Gold on the website. Is it discontinued?

[Ausglock]

Thanks.

I don’t see TMG Gold on the website. Is it discontinued?

Probably wasn't available in the US

[Petander]

Thanks.

I don’t see TMG Gold on the website. Is it discontinued?

My TMG is the Original which has been discontinued because of a higher price. Had I known,I'd have bought many pounds beforehand.

Now there is new,cheaper TMG Gold which I haven't tried yet. I'd still like to know if there is a possibility for a batch of Original TMG,and how big batch that would be. I might buy it all.

[Ausglock]

Just talked to Joe.
The old Bugger is in Hospital.
They thought he had the Black Lung and Syphilis. but it was only Influenza B.
should be letting him out tomorrow.

Don't send him any "Get well Soon" messages. Old Coot will think people care about him....

[Petander]

Ouch.

But okay,I just emailed him about "Original TMG". No get wells because I didn't know.

I sized a few .4605's to .4565 by accident,then smashed. I don't need .4565,don't know who does,it was a "spare Lee sizer in a wrong place" -accident. Aqualube is good, I use it on all my sizing. 4 thou on a big NLG is quite a lot and I managed to size a few before noticing it's not my .4595.

Sizing makes the surface look & feel like glass. It is tough and solid and bonded like crazy.

https://i.postimg.cc/CdppCSPk/IMG-20191201-121950-808.jpg

[Tazza]

He has the plague AGAIN? He was really bad last time he got that, like a week in hospital for that one too, he needs to stay away from sick people.

Hope he gets better soon, i'm sure deep down he knows you care about him Trevor :) Without him around, who would you have to make fun of? Gremlin can't take all the abuse that currently is shared between him AND Joe

Petander - I got a bottle of aqualube i need to try on my next batch of over sized cast to squeeze down. I'm using lee dies at the moment, they give a very shiny finish, but not as good as yours, i wonder if the lube added to the nice glossy finish too.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Tazza;4774203]He has the plague AGAIN? He needs to stay away from sick people.

Tazza,
This one was air borne bug that caused Pneumonia not spread by sick people. As soon as I started feeling crook, no delays. I was immediately taken into emergency, and flooded with anti biotics. What puzzled me was that I was immunized against Pneumonia, but was told that immunization was for a different type and did not work to stop this bug getting started.

I was getting better, ready to be discharged today, then last night, at about 1am, I was medicated with infusion anti biotics and nurse left. I could not get to sleep . I moved my arm, and felt a wet spot under my arm. I turned on lights, and discovered, that the Canula partly came out of the vein, and opened enough room to pump out blood continuously. What was extremely alarming is, that if I would have fallen asleep, the next check on me would have been some 6 hours later, when I would have already passed from blood loss.
Make things worse, my arm went into spasm and pain, I lost feeling in my fingers, and they were tingling, and my hand swelled up so I could hardly form a fist. I became more upset as I though I had a blood clot blocking from that vein, that could have travelled, and end of story.
Mate, I hate hospitals with a vengeance.

[wlkjr]

Our local hospital is known as "The Place Where Well People Go To Die."

[slide]

Joe, do you remember exchanging e-mails at about 3:00 am my time. I thought something was up by the way you were talking(typing). I am glad you are getting better. Sure doesn't speak very good for that hospital.

[Tazza]

I swear they are tying to do you in, I'll blame it on your competitor, paying nurses to sabotage your canular to make it look like an accident. Glad you found it and are still with us.

They always blame it on a different strain, like white ants in your house after protection, these are a different shade of whits, so no warranty for you!

Get out of there as soon as you can!

[HI-TEK]

I swear they are tying to do you in, I'll blame it on your competitor, paying nurses to sabotage your canular to make it look like an accident. Glad you found it and are still with us.

They always blame it on a different strain, like white ants in your house after protection, these are a different shade of whits, so no warranty for you!

Get out of there as soon as you can!

I was getting a feeling that someone/thing is trying to get me, twice now in 12 months.
I got out of there mid morning after I had a dummy spit at the doctors.
I have blood cloths all over my arm from them jabbing me many times.
I look like I got Leprosy.
I feel stuffed, as I had about 10 hours sleep in 3 days. Could not sleep with the noise of badly sick people in my room. I felt very sorry for them as they were all in post operative recovery, and in pain.

[Stephen Cohen]

Hope all works out well for you Joe. I once told the nurse if she woke me at 3am again I would drag her into bed and kiss her, well she did and as I promised I dragged her into bed and kissed her, funny thing is she didn't fight me off at all and kept waking me at 3am. Times have changed and one would be arrested for such things now. Get well and regards Stephen.

[Ausglock]

OK... enough Sooking him up.
Get back to work..

[Stephen Cohen]

OK... enough Sooking him up.
Get back to work..

You crack me up.

[Petander]

I made some "Get Well Son" - TMG fireworks for Joe, The Great Inventor.

NLG bullet really shines here,leaving more powder space with the same OAL. I will be able to safely push this 450 grainer past 2000 fps (610 m/s).

My alloy is only 12-14 BHN,very malleable. With HP,this is becoming a true varmint load.

https://i.postimg.cc/VkCRsh1H/IMG-20191202-143150.jpg

[PAT303]

Red Copper
Bronze 500
Bronze 502
Gold 1035
TMG Gold
Sunny Gold
Old Gold
Kryptonite Green
Texas Tea
Candy Apple

I've been using Texas Tea for years now, my Mk11* Lee Enfield shoots inside the X ring on the military core target out to 300 meters as long as I don't run out of talent, and I can't remember the last time I ran a brush down the bore either. Just a side note, if anyone wants to know how long a H barrel lasts, as of last Saturday mine has had 8823 cast bullet rounds down it and still shoot's 1 1/2 on command at 100 meters prone unsupported.

[PAT303]

[QUOTE=Tazza;4774203]He has the plague AGAIN? He needs to stay away from sick people.

Tazza,
This one was air borne bug that caused Pneumonia not spread by sick people. As soon as I started feeling crook, no delays. I was immediately taken into emergency, and flooded with anti biotics. What puzzled me was that I was immunized against Pneumonia, but was told that immunization was for a different type and did not work to stop this bug getting started.

I was getting better, ready to be discharged today, then last night, at about 1am, I was medicated with infusion anti biotics and nurse left. I could not get to sleep . I moved my arm, and felt a wet spot under my arm. I turned on lights, and discovered, that the Canula partly came out of the vein, and opened enough room to pump out blood continuously. What was extremely alarming is, that if I would have fallen asleep, the next check on me would have been some 6 hours later, when I would have already passed from blood loss.
Make things worse, my arm went into spasm and pain, I lost feeling in my fingers, and they were tingling, and my hand swelled up so I could hardly form a fist. I became more upset as I though I had a blood clot blocking from that vein, that could have travelled, and end of story.
Mate, I hate hospitals with a vengeance.

Joe, you should have had a Pneumovax 23 injection but some people only get the 7 or 13 serotype one.

[Stephen Cohen]

I made some "Get Well Son" - TMG fireworks for Joe, The Great Inventor.

NLG bullet really shines here,leaving more powder space with the same OAL. I will be able to safely push this 450 grainer past 2000 fps (610 m/s).

My alloy is only 12-14 BHN,very malleable. With HP,this is becoming a true varmint load.

https://i.postimg.cc/VkCRsh1H/IMG-20191202-143150.jpg

Just shows how this coating does not need super hard alloy, that is a nice looking bullet and anything hit with it would leave a pink mist against that snow. Well done Sir. Regards Stephen

[hunter74]

Can anyone please post a pic of Texas Tea. My search on the interweb turned up empty [emoji28]

Sent fra min SM-G930F via Tapatalk

[PAT303]

I posted a pic, about 450,000 pages ago hahaha. My boolits are the colour of coffee/milk chocolate.

[Ausglock]

I'm posting this for Joe, due to the fact he can't get pictures to work on here.

It is heat/time tests done by others that he has received.
https://i.imgur.com/UiIbJIh.jpg

[HI-TEK]

I'm posting this for Joe, due to the fact he can't get pictures to work on here.

It is heat/time tests done by others that he has received.
https://i.imgur.com/UiIbJIh.jpg

Thanks for posting this , much appreciated.

The credit for this work belongs to Slide.

These tests were done for all those who were interested in the coatings ability to resist/reflect heat during baking.
These results also show the ability of the coating to stop heat from Powder burn going into alloy. The film thickness was only 1/2 thou of an inch thick for these tests.

Experiment
Oven set at 180C. Two identical calibrated probes were used inserted into holes drilled into both plain and once coated alloy.
Attached is a graph of time lag caused by 1 coat, of ½ thou coating film thickness.
At 2 minutes, differential was 20C
At 3 minutes, differential was 15C
At 5 minutes, differential was 10C
At the 6 minute mark, the coating started liquifying and cross linking and temperature of coated cast was 162C, and uncoated cast was approaching 170C.
During fusion/melting & crosslinking, the differential was much reduced, as the liquified resin conducted more heat into the alloy but continued to remain at about 5C differential up to 180C..
From 6 minute to about 8.5 minute mark, the differential remained reasonably constant at about 5C.
At the 9 minute mark, the differential was 2C at about 180C.
Final temperature of non coated cast was 182C and coated cast was at 180C at same time.

From test results, it is confirmed, that coating reflects heat, and dramatically slows down heat penetration into alloy, and it does not take much coating thickness to achieve that.

Graph also shows temperature, with profile changes taking place, when coating begins to heat cure commencing at about 165C onwards, starting roughly at the 6 minute mark.
From start of cure beginning at about 165C up to 180C, the temperature differential remained at about 5C.
At the end of baking, there was only a 2C difference between plain alloy and coated alloy.

This temperature resistance is also shown in Gateways video.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC6xfaIp4RVEjbLTV4m25gzQ heat test video

Main reason for these tests, is to demonstrate that it is not oven air temperature that is critical, but actual load temperature is critical to monitor.
Under cured coatings, can be directly caused by user to think that load was baked correctly as oven was at a certain temperature, but in fact, it the load may not have reached correct cure conditions..
Hope information is useful.

[Avenger442]

Nice work Slide. Ordered a thermometer with K-type thermocouples today. It was about $25 shipped and sounds like a good idea for guys that just have to have the color right.

[slide]

Everybody needs to know that this was Ausglock's and Joe's idea sometime back. I just happened to see a post and decided to try it. Good luck Avenger442.If you need help let me know. It is simple or I wouldn't be able to do it.

[Ausglock]

Good Job, Mate.
I did it with my setup, but couldn't be bothered data logging it.

[Petander]

Interesting,thank you Slide.

I have too much temp variation in my oven for a test like that. Every bullet reads a bit differently anyway, radiant heat beats the cyclone.

But I can live with it,especially with TMG Gold.

[Avenger442]

Petander
I usually agree with you. I'm not really as interested in the color as I am with no leading and group performance. But I need this blue color. It is one of the Auburn colors.

It is hard to explain to someone that does not live here the rivalry of the two college football teams in this state. Some of us get a little out of hand and there have been some who have ended up in jail because of it. But for the most of us it is just a friendly ribbing (joking or teasing). We wear our colors some even choose the color of their car based on those colors. My wife, who is from another state thinks we are all a little crazy or as she says "stupid". But every year she gets into the same ribbing fun as everyone else. Auburn and Alabama have been competing in the "Iron Bowl" since February 22, 1893. I believe this year was the 187th game. Auburn won the first but Alabama has won thirteen more times than Auburn. Auburn won this year and we have the bragging rights for the year. I was a student at Auburn 1971-1976. And these blue bullets are something the guys at the range will love. Even Wiki has a history of how it all started.

[Petander]

Petander
I usually agree with you.

That's interesting because I disagree with myself all the time.

But I do understand why you want the blue right. I'd like to get Candy right and Blue is soon on my way, I've been thinking it has to be right so I'll need:

A) More Cyclone

B) A heat shield to tame radiant heat from above

C) Both

D) Another oven

A PID only helps after the hot / cold spots are gone.

[wlkjr]

Petander
I usually agree with you. I'm not really as interested in the color as I am with no leading and group performance. But I need this blue color. It is one of the Auburn colors.

It is hard to explain to someone that does not live here the rivalry of the two college football teams in this state. Some of us get a little out of hand and there have been some who have ended up in jail because of it. But for the most of us it is just a friendly ribbing (joking or teasing). We wear our colors some even choose the color of their car based on those colors. My wife, who is from another state thinks we are all a little crazy or as she says "stupid". But every year she gets into the same ribbing fun as everyone else. Auburn and Alabama have been competing in the "Iron Bowl" since February 22, 1893. I believe this year was the 187th game. Auburn won the first but Alabama has won thirteen more times than Auburn. Auburn won this year and we have the bragging rights for the year. I was a student at Auburn 1971-1976. And these blue bullets are something the guys at the range will love. Even Wiki has a history of how it all started.

All I got to say about that is Roll Tide.

[Avenger442]

Well Georgia is our longest rivalry. So go dogs.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;4776601]Petander
I usually agree with you. I'm not really as interested in the color as I am with no leading and group performance. But I need this blue color. It is one of the Auburn colors.

Avenger, TRUBLU is already under way to the US. You need to keep in touch with Donnie with arrival/availability situation.

[Petander]

First coat TMG Gold,second coat 50/50 Zombie Green/TMG Gold.

https://i.postimg.cc/Pfg2xzS2/IMG-20191209-183855-531.jpg

Did I ever mention that I like TMG Gold?

[dikman]

Did I ever mention that I like TMG Gold?
Not in the last 10 minutes![smilie=l:

[Tazza]

Not in the last 10 minutes![smilie=l:

hehe

So, zombie gold?

[Ausglock]

I wonder what the remaining test sample of TMG gold I have, is worth to a Caster in the frozen North of the Planet......lol

[Petander]

I wonder what the remaining test sample of TMG gold I have, is worth to a Caster in the frozen North of the Planet......lol

Do you need dropbear repellant? Now that Christmas is coming, I have plenty of braindeer repellant,it is good for dropbears,too.

252714

[Petander]

https://i.postimg.cc/XJjfwZfh/IMG-20191212-165728-114.jpg

[HI-TEK]

https://i.postimg.cc/XJjfwZfh/IMG-20191212-165728-114.jpg

You certainly gave them a bashing.
Was this Zombie/TMG 50/50 mix?

[Petander]

You certainly gave them a bashing.
Was this Zombie/TMG 50/50 mix?

Yes it was.

[Ausglock]

Anyone heard of the EU banning Lead bullets? Petander??? I hear it is all over the news in Norway..

https://www.gunsweek.com/en/ammunition/articles/eu-goes-again-all-out-lead-ammunition-ban

[HI-TEK]

Anyone heard of the EU banning Lead bullets? Petander??? I hear it is all over the news in Norway..

https://www.gunsweek.com/en/ammunition/articles/eu-goes-again-all-out-lead-ammunition-ban


If this is correct, I am wondering if this UN push, is the continuation of trying to disarm the world population?
In US, a while ago, there seemed a push to hugely increase prices with taxes on all ammunition to make it unattractive for consumers to use. This sent the US population into a frenzy of buying their own machines to cast and load, and produce home made ammo to bypass the price hike intent.
Many alternatives were tried to replace Lead, but none were truly economical or successful.

[Petander]

Anyone heard of the EU banning Lead bullets? Petander??? I hear it is all over the news in Norway..

https://www.gunsweek.com/en/ammunition/articles/eu-goes-again-all-out-lead-ammunition-ban

Yes,this has been talked about for a while already. Nobody believes it will happen as a total ban but well... we just got magazine restrictions, Cali-style,you never know. But a total ban would stop everything.

Lots of people want total disarmament,especially for the others.

[Avenger442]

The reason why the founders of our country wrote into our constitution "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." was they had seen first hand how evil can corrupt a government.

Just got in the electronic thermometer with K sensors yesterday. This thing has four channels so I can check four different locations in the tray of bullets and start my countdown when they reach 180C. Will drill coated bullets and put the sensors in them when I get a chance. Right now tied up with the run around before Christmas.

[Petander]

In case of lead ban,we can always use gold bullets.

https://i.postimg.cc/N0W6Nchn/IMG-20191215-143046.jpg

Two coats of TMG Gold, Mihec 358429 HP PB , no sizing, (.359 & 155 grns) full house Vihtavuori N110 (One gram).

One 50 rd box,good accuracy, very,very clean gun.

[Tazza]

That's one savage looking hollow point

[Petander]

That's one savage looking hollow point

Yeah and a joy to cast with. I only tried the long HP for this (new to me) classic SWC.

Everything came together just like that with this mold,I made an estimated 13 BHN medium alloy for 357 and cast a 500 test batch. I also made another 500 softer ,thinking 38 Special. Two coats of "TMG Green" for them. Purrty!

Sizing is not a biggie but I like when fresh from the oven bullets work.

Only complaint is,this won't fit a Mod 27 chamber when loaded like this. Or it fits but the bullet tips are sticking out. But I tend to shoot dedicated bullets/ loads anyway,maybe I can live with that.

(You know the feeling when you are loading a gun,only to notice your ammo won't chamber...)

[Petander]

https://i.postimg.cc/GpXhhQj2/IMG-20191215-154138-711.jpg

[Stephen Cohen]

If this is correct, I am wondering if this UN push, is the continuation of trying to disarm the world population?
In US, a while ago, there seemed a push to hugely increase prices with taxes on all ammunition to make it unattractive for consumers to use. This sent the US population into a frenzy of buying their own machines to cast and load, and produce home made ammo to bypass the price hike intent.
Many alternatives were tried to replace Lead, but none were truly economical or successful.

The change to steel shot put many shotguns in the wall hanger category, I played with lead soldiers as a kid and have handled uncountable amounts of lead in sinker and bullet form and I am still here. To me the only time a lead bullet becomes a danger is when its fired at you. Regards Stephen

[Burnt Fingers]

I'm waiting on the Blue to hit the US. I need to restock my Hi-Tek but I REALLY want that blue.

[Jhopson]

I recently order some Hi-Tek from Donnie and spoke to him about the Blue. He said look for it in January. I can’t wait because I want to try it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HI-TEK]

I recently order some Hi-Tek from Donnie and spoke to him about the Blue. He said look for it in January. I can’t wait because I want to try it.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Donnie was sent a small amount to try.
I don't know if he has any left, of this initial sample stock.
It would not hurt to ask again if he had any left.
Shipment with larger amounts should hit port in mid January.
With the demand already, it is a situation of making sure that Donnie has orders allocated, so he can deliver received stock upon arriving. If Donnie's orders are more than what is shipped, Donnie can order more. At least, it is under way with supply.

[HI-TEK]

PETANDER,
Sent you an email.
Please reply.

[Tazza]

With all this hype, looks like i'm gonna have to put an order in fro some of the blue too :)

Need these bush fires to go away and to rain so i can get to smelting quite a large amount of range scrap i just picked up. I don't need the po po knocking on my door yelling at me for having a fire going cleaning scrap lead.....

[dikman]

I've got the same problem, looks like no more smelting for me until Autumn. 45*C in my reloading/sewing shed today so I wasn't down there either.:sad:

[Gremlin460]

You guys are funny... spent the last two days casting.... come on girlfriend break out the LPG...

[dansedgli]

I just cobbled together 240kgs of ingots from the range on the weekend. Time to get behind the machine again.

Are we able to buy the blue in Aus?

[Ausglock]

You guys are funny... spent the last two days casting.... come on girlfriend break out the LPG...

Where you been hiding??? Ya get my message the other day??

[Tazza]

I've got the same problem, looks like no more smelting for me until Autumn. 45*C in my reloading/sewing shed today so I wasn't down there either.:sad:

Yeah, heard it was gonna be warm for a few days down there.... Don't catch fire.

As for Gremlin, i'm working on it actually. The guy i'm getting the scrap from has a diesel/waste oil powered smelter that i'm gonna grab, so technically it would be allowed to be used, do you want to come round for the next few weeks to help turn the scrap into ingots? There is a LOT there to process, gonna take me ages to get through.

[Ausglock]

Bugger Smelting Scrap.
I got 2 x 500KG skids of 2.6.92 delivered today.
Sweet....

[Tazza]

Bugger Smelting Scrap.
I got 2 x 500KG skids of 2.6.92 delivered today.
Sweet....

That sure is the easier option :)

The scrap is cheaper, but does take quite a but of time to be cleaned so it's usable again. Yours goes straight into the pot and turned into cash.

[HI-TEK]

That sure is the easier option :)

The scrap is cheaper, but does take quite a but of time to be cleaned so it's usable again. Yours goes straight into the pot and turned into cash.

Tazza,
Re-cycling scrap is OK, but you also need to know a lot more details on metal that was reclaimed such as composition and hardness. Hardness is easy to test, but metal composition requires sophisticated analysis.
I am always a bit concerned about a mix being recycled as to what is in the final product.
I have seen many problems over the years with problems occurring with trying to coat mystery metals.

[Petander]

Tazza,
Re-cycling scrap is OK, but you also need to know a lot more details on metal that was reclaimed such as composition and hardness. Hardness is easy to test, but metal composition requires sophisticated analysis.
I am always a bit concerned about a mix being recycled as to what is in the final product.
I have seen many problems over the years with problems occurring with trying to coat mystery metals.

Tell me about it.

My Niobium contaminant is very interesting : it causes random,unpredictable problems that differ from colour to colour. Even with properly HCL soaked bullets, I can't get perfect Zombie Green using my Nb alloy. Clean alloys coat ZG just fine.

TMG Gold doesn't seem to mind Nb much at all... did I ever mention how much I like TMG Gold?

[Tazza]

Tazza,
Re-cycling scrap is OK, but you also need to know a lot more details on metal that was reclaimed such as composition and hardness. Hardness is easy to test, but metal composition requires sophisticated analysis.
I am always a bit concerned about a mix being recycled as to what is in the final product.
I have seen many problems over the years with problems occurring with trying to coat mystery metals.

i believe 90+ % of it will be factory ammo as there is a butt load of copper jackets in the mix, so hopefully it's not too much of a mystery, yet hardness does need to be altered as the jacketed projectiles are not hard cast, just softer lead. So far i have had no issues with it, hopefully it will stay that way too.

The biggest issue i have is getting all the lead from the dross. I get quite a bit of powder that is very heavy. I have fluxed like a psychopath and it still will not come out. I was getting ready to dump a few buckets worth and felt how heavy a ladle full was, so i hit it with my oxy torch, and saw shiny metal appear, not sure if the extra heat from the flame was burning off the rubbish and leaving the lead behind or not. Or of it just melted all the small beads into one big blob.

[HI-TEK]

The biggest issue i have is getting all the lead from the dross. I get quite a bit of powder that is very heavy. I have fluxed like a psychopath and it still will not come out. I was getting ready to dump a few buckets worth and felt how heavy a ladle full was, so i hit it with my oxy torch, and saw shiny metal appear, not sure if the extra heat from the flame was burning off the rubbish and leaving the lead behind or not. Or of it just melted all the small beads into one big blob.

Tazza,
heating with Acetylene torch may be a good idea, (aside from Lead fumes) especially if flame is deprived from adequate Oxygen. The Acetylene rich flame would result in being an anti-oxidant reducing flame that would probably strip Oxide off the Lead to release the Lead. To try and release Lead from Lead Oxides, you really are better to use powdered Steel or iron filings. The Iron will strip off the Oxide to release Lead. The iron will become Iron Oxide which will float on molten Lead.

[HI-TEK]

Tell me about it.

I can't get perfect Zombie Green using my Nb alloy. Clean alloys coat ZG just fine.

TMG Gold doesn't seem to mind Nb much at all... did I ever mention how much I like TMG Gold?

Petander,
can you tell me with as much details of what you get, or what actually happens, when trying to coat Nb metal with Zombie Green?
If it is a colour change, there may be an explanation for colour change. Aside from heat, turning the Green to Tan , please describe what actually happens?

[HI-TEK]

I just cobbled together 240kgs of ingots from the range on the weekend. Time to get behind the machine again.

Are we able to buy the blue in Aus?

Dansedgli,
Yes, it is available in 500g Jars, smallest pack.

[Petander]

Petander,
can you tell me with as much details of what you get, or what actually happens, when trying to coat Nb metal with Zombie Green?
If it is a colour change, there may be an explanation for colour change. Aside from heat, turning the Green to Tan , please describe what actually happens?

This is very unscientific but using contaminated alloy my ZG looks 'dry" no matter how I bake. And even when overbaked long and/or hot, it will release lots of green colour in wipe test. Even bronze bullets leave green wipe. It won't bond good,being rather paint-like.

My clean alloys bake more elastic,tough,proper ZG.

I started out with mostly ZG, lots of failures until I got my alloy tested and started HCL soaking.

[Ausglock]

If you are keen on separating lead from dross.

Get a sheet of Stainless steel 18 inches long and 12 inches wide.
Mount it on a 45 deg angle.
Heat it with a propane burner from below.
Have a collection pot etc about 6 inches below and to the side of the bottom of the plate so there is an air gap.
Pour your molten lead/dross on the top of the plate and let it run down the plate. The molten lead will speed down the plate and jump the air gap and fall into the pot. the dross will meander down the plate and fall through the air gap into another collection pot.

You don't need huge heat to separate it.
Simples.
BTW... this is how Northern Smelters cleans their lead.

[Tazza]

If you are keen on separating lead from dross.

Get a sheet of Stainless steel 18 inches long and 12 inches wide.
Mount it on a 45 deg angle.
Heat it with a propane burner from below.
Have a collection pot etc about 6 inches below and to the side of the bottom of the plate so there is an air gap.
Pour your molten lead/dross on the top of the plate and let it run down the plate. The molten lead will speed down the plate and jump the air gap and fall into the pot. the dross will meander down the plate and fall through the air gap into another collection pot.

You don't need huge heat to separate it.
Simples.
BTW... this is how Northern Smelters cleans their lead.

Very interesting, i think i'll have to give this setup a try when we can make fires again. Sounds like a fairly simple method to separate the two.

Joe - Never thought about the composition of the flame, but does make sense. Years ago at high school we turned lead oxide into a bead of lead with a match, it used the carbon from the wood to do it under heat. I have a metal lathe that always has many metal chips under it.

[dikman]

You guys are funny... spent the last two days casting.... come on girlfriend break out the LPG...

I use a coke-fired forge, so lots of smoke and flame, not a good idea where I live in the Adelaide Hills (makes people nervous!).

My range scrap is 99% commercial (coated) pistol ammo, the rest is a bit of .22 and pure muzzleloader stuff. I'm not worried about the quality. And yeah, my dross feels like there's more in suspension but I can't be stuffed trying to salvage it.

[Stephen Cohen]

One of my last rang scrap batches had a lot of 9mm jacketed hard ball in it and they were a brass colour, was told by one of the pistol boys they were some Chinese cheap rubbish I don't know what was in them but the alloy was a lot like aluminium and would not cast properly or accept coating. It made great sinkers though. Regards Stephen

[Gremlin460]

Where you been hiding??? Ya get my message the other day??

yup sorted and sent...happy days.

[Gremlin460]

Yeah, heard it was gonna be warm for a few days down there.... Don't catch fire.

As for Gremlin, i'm working on it actually. The guy i'm getting the scrap from has a diesel/waste oil powered smelter that i'm gonna grab, so technically it would be allowed to be used, do you want to come round for the next few weeks to help turn the scrap into ingots? There is a LOT there to process, gonna take me ages to get through.


Last time I ran range scrap to ingots I got near as much useless dross as I did usefull ingots.
RS is a horrible lead, bhn varies from batch to batch. I am happy to stick with WW for now.

Range scrap be good if you could do a whole large cauldron full to help even out the BHN variance.

I need to take a run to Northern smelters in the new year, I am near out of antimony and tin ingots.

total cast over the last 2 sessions 42.54 punds of 126gn Conical 8mm or 2363 if you like individual count.
Cleaned and tumbled, now to rinse and pick a colour to coat them..

Happy Xmas to all. Mike.

[Tazza]

Thankfully this scrap is indoor range scrap, so not full of the dirt garbage. I'm with you on the equal amount of rubbish to ingots, that's about what i get from my local range when i pillage the mound on the 50m range.

With the indoor range scrap, i get about 80% recovery i think, i will need to work out if it's worth my time to try and process the dross further to try and get the lead out or not. I know there is a fair amount in there, but how much time and materials will it cost me to get it, it may not be economical to do so.

As fro variations, my pot is generally pretty full, i cant remember exactly how much it holds, but it has to be 200 or more kg, so it gives a decent consistency. I then check the BHN and add some lino to give it tin and bring the hardness up a bit. Even a small amount helps a lot with filling out the mould better, they just seem to cast so much nicer than pure range lead.

[dansedgli]

200kgs is a big pot. Mine is like 30 when full.

My range scrap is off an indoor range with a steel backplate. I bought home 366kgs after shovelling for 15 minutes and got 242kgs of lead ingots. The rest is sand or busted sticks.

Apart from loading and unloading the car it's pretty easy work.

Thanks Joe, ill order some blue in the new year.

[Tazza]

200kgs is a big pot. Mine is like 30 when full.

My range scrap is off an indoor range with a steel backplate. I bought home 366kgs after shovelling for 15 minutes and got 242kgs of lead ingots. The rest is sand or busted sticks.

Apart from loading and unloading the car it's pretty easy work.

Thanks Joe, ill order some blue in the new year.

My pot is made with an end of an old 40kg? LPG bottle, the size that you see on houses that use LPG. Welded inside a section of a 44 gallon drum, fueled by dried out trees.

Not a bad score for 1 minutes work collecting. I spent about 6 hours at my local range digging through the berm to get 300 odd KG......

[Petander]

One of my last rang scrap batches had a lot of 9mm jacketed hard ball in it and they were a brass colour, was told by one of the pistol boys they were some Chinese cheap rubbish I don't know what was in them but the alloy was a lot like aluminium and would not cast properly or accept coating. It made great sinkers though. Regards Stephen

Wow,this is bad when mixed with proper lead.

[kevin c]

I didn't think aluminum alloys melted at lead alloy temps?

Pure aluminum melts at something like 1220 F. Alloys tend to melt at lower temperatures, but the. Lowest I could find on a quick search had what I think was a solidus temp of 890 F.

Maybe zinc? Regardless, whatever the alloy is in those slugs, if it messed up the alloy it still bites.

[HI-TEK]

I didn't think aluminum alloys melted at lead alloy temps?

Pure aluminum melts at something like 1220 F. Alloys tend to melt at lower temperatures, but the. Lowest I could find on a quick search had what I think was a solidus temp of 890 F.

Maybe zinc? Regardless, whatever the alloy is in those slugs, if it messed up the alloy it still bites.

kevinC
There are numerous alloys under the banner of "White Metals" or low melt alloys, which can be low enough to melt with Lead alloys..
These can be mixtures of Tin, Cadmium, Selenium, Magnesium, Indium, Gallium, (possibly Arsenic)and our favourite Zinc.
These can be also combined with Lead.
There are many low melting point alloys, most are secret mixes, ranging from melting points, 80C to about 350C.
Some of these metal alloys are possibly suitable for projectile manufacture, but depending on composition, prices may become a barrier.
They will certainly interfere with coating, and may be sold/used in Copper Jacketed ammo.
Recovering scrap is always a gamble, as you really don't know what you are getting, then, problems galore.
I saw a metal that melts at about 80C, (in hot water). Some Gallium alloys can melt in the hand.
Most interesting stuff.

[kevin c]

I was going to say that I wouldn't expect any of those to be found in commercial bullet alloys, but the poster above mentioned that imported Chinese ammo may have been the problem, and I've come to the reluctant conclusion that the country my great grandparents emigrated from has manufacturers who are clever enough to copy just about anything with ersatz materials, and unethical enough to sell them to anyone (including their fellow countrymen).

So it could be that aluminum or cadmium or some other junk was in the alloy. It certainly would make the ammo junk, as well as any salvaged bullets and the recovered metal made from them.

[HI-TEK]

I was going to say that I wouldn't expect any of those to be found in commercial bullet alloys, but the poster above mentioned that imported Chinese ammo may have been the problem, and I've come to the reluctant conclusion that the country my great grandparents emigrated from has manufacturers who are clever enough to copy just about anything with ersatz materials, and unethical enough to sell them to anyone (including their fellow countrymen).

So it could be that aluminum or cadmium or some other junk was in the alloy. It certainly would make the ammo junk, as well as any salvaged bullets and the recovered metal made from them.

kevin C
You would be surprised at what can be found in alloy mixtures. One was Niobium in Lead alloy, and the other is Bismuth in Lead alloy. These are not common metals and are expensive, but, I hate to infer it, but some may think that getting rid of such materials can be easily made by adding them to host metals like Lead.
Things like Cadmium come from recycled Acid Batteries, and if Lead is not properly furnaced/treated, these remain there for unsuspecting users.
Arsenic is also used to harden Lead alloys.
Some Lead speciality alloys for radiation shielding can have very strange additive metals to enhance properties required. Once these Lead radiation shields are recycled, and blended with other Lead that is also recycled, who knows what will be final composition.
Unless a very thorough assay is done on alloys, no one knows details.

[Tazza]

Thankfully, so far, i have had no issues with recycled lead. It's softer than commercial hard ball lead due to .22 and jacketed projeciles that make it into the mix, but coated and sized correctly, i have had no issues with it, never leads up or has bonding issues.

I'm sure if an assay was done, there would be undesirables in it, but i'd like to believe they are in such small quantities, that it will never cause any issues. Be it zinc from shooters making their own from recycled wheel weights and they missed a few zinc ones, very easy to do.

[Ausglock]

Be careful when melting down the red and Purple coated Federal bullets. They are not you normal bullet alloy. They look "wrong" when the coating is removed and seem to melt "lumpy", not shiny smooth.

[Stephen Cohen]

I highly doubt the alloy in my previously mentioned post was actually aluminium but one could certainly be forgiven for thinking it was, I have kept a piece that dripped out of my Lee pot and after a couple years has not discoloured or oxidised. When I use range scrap these days I ditch any hardball jacketed beforehand. The berms at my range are sandy so I can fill a couple 20 litre buckets in 15 mins, but I have plenty of CWW so I am in no hurry to use range scrap. I have to admit that Joe has opened my eyes to the danger of smelting unknown lead alloys and old car batteries which I believe should be sent to scrap. Regards and Merry xmas to all. Stephen

[Avenger442]

Processing old car batteries has certain health hazards that has always kept me from considering it.

Like Stephen COWW are just too cheap and accessible to make me want to consider other stuff. After you have been through a couple of thousand you can spot the steel and zinc. And I cross check with a pair of side cutters. They will not even dent the zinc weights. Bullets cast with them are fairly consistent weight.

I have mined the range berms near my house once. Didn't have problems coating them but, even though it was free, it was just too much work and dirt for what I got. Berms are okay when it has been raining. But when it is dry lead is not so accessible.

[Stephen Cohen]

Processing old car batteries has certain health hazards that has always kept me from considering it.

Like Stephen COWW are just too cheap and accessible to make me want to consider other stuff. After you have been through a couple of thousand you can spot the steel and zinc. And I cross check with a pair of side cutters. They will not even dent the zinc weights. Bullets cast with them are fairly consistent weight.

I have mined the range berms near my house once. Didn't have problems coating them but, even though it was free, it was just too much work and dirt for what I got. Berms are okay when it has been raining. But when it is dry lead is not so accessible.

I tend to agree that CWW are easier to smelt but even they are starting to become a mystery as to what they contain these days. Regards Stephen

[kevin c]

I am also fortunate that I have a good source for clean antimonial lead, though there was a time just a few years ago when I mined my club's berms. I had it analyzed: 2% Sb and the rest lead. The copper and brass jackets and a bit of dross were the only waste.

Now though, while there's still a lot of jacketed with soft lead and commercial cast shot at my club's action pistol matches, a lot of the agencies and even the Coast Guard who rent our ranges on weekdays are using "nontoxic" lead free ammo, which also means a lead free projectile. Some have gone to frangibles, also lead free. The lead yield on berm mining might be trending downwards.

Come to think of it, I still have a full unprocessed five gallon bucket of range scrap from years ago. I wonder if in a few more years folks will look at it the way they do now with old stashes of wheel weights that have no steel or zinc.

[Avenger442]

I agree that there are more zinc and steel now than when I started. But it is still worthwhile to go through the bin. Actually it has worked somewhat in my favor that there are more weights that are not lead. It caused the price to come down and they base their price to me on what they are selling it for. The Owner lets me sort at the yard so I buy more lead. That wasn't an option at the tire places. So their weights were a little more than the yard and I quit going there. Theirs end up at the yard anyway. I check all of them again when I process them. The yard almost always has a lot of soft lead scrap lead pipe, flashing, and stuff I don't recognize. I buy the flashing but the other stuff stays since it is unknown. I've been told the flashing is about 99% pure.

Don't know how many pounds of cast and coated bullets I have. Every time I get a new mold I have to check it out by casting some. I still have about 400 pounds of processed wheel weights that I did when i first started. Total I probably have about 700 pounds of ingots and working on 1000. That's a lot of bullets even in rifle. About 200 pounds of it is soft wheel weight and lead flashing ingots. Everything is marked on the ingot. I don't usually smelt the wheel weights until I have 100 pounds or more. And every batch of weights has probably had some cast out of it.

Back when I first got the BHN gauge I ran test on some of my stored and it all was about the same BHN. I'm not going to say there are absolutely no contaminants in any of it but it all cast, coats and weighs almost the same. Guess I've been lucky.

I've got a question kind of off topic. What kind of brass are you guys using? Remington, Winchester, Hornady, Starline pistol or rifle.........? For those of you that have used several which one do you like best and why?

[Ausglock]

Merry Christmas to everyone.
My pistol brass is a bit of a mix.
38 Supercomp is all Starline
38 super is a mix
9mm is anything except S&B. S&B is crap.
45ACP is mostly ex-mil. I bought 15,000 from a bloke on this forum a few years ago. back then, I could bring in brass from the US with no paperwork... not now...
44Mag is mostly remington or WIN.

[Stephen Cohen]

Avenger442, My brass is a bit of a mix, my 357 Max is Remington because they were the only ones making it at the time, my 357 Mag I have several hundred Starline, Winchester, Geco and several other I cant remember. My 223 is a mix of Norinco Military Winchester, Federal, Remington and other brands I can't remember, I try and use one brand for each different load. My 308 Win is mostly Remington and Winchester. My 375 Whelen brass is made from Remington 35 Whelen brass and mostly Winchester 30/06 brass. My 458 is all Winchester. I make the point of making all my flash holes uniform and deburring them after making them a uniform length, I believe this makes the brand of brass unimportant for the hunting ammunition I load, however I do like the 357 Starline brass. The only time I actually fuss about the brand of brass is when using my Omark mod 44 Target Rifle as it deserves every edge it can get as the superbly accurate rifle it is. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

Be careful when melting down the red and Purple coated Federal bullets. They are not you normal bullet alloy. They look "wrong" when the coating is removed and seem to melt "lumpy", not shiny smooth.

I haven't seen any of them in the mix so far... But sadly in the future it will make it's way to the bullet trap. I wonder if they just swage *rubbish lead alloy* then coat it to not stick to the bore. As long as hi-tek keeps bonding, i'm hoping it will still work just fine to not cause leading. I do see it causing weight differences between batches though

[Ausglock]

The only time I actually fuss about the brand of brass is when using my Omark mod 44 Target Rifle as it deserves every edge it can get as the superbly accurate rifle it is. Regards Stephen

When I was Full-bore shooting back in the late 80's early 90's my Omark had a new Black Mountain barrel fitted 7.62. All my brass was ADI single flashhole brass... It was only new back then. everything used to be MFF Berdan cases. All got FLS. fired then flashholes uniformed, neck sized, neck turned, trimmed, weighed and water capacity checked and grouped into 24 case lots. ADI 144gn FMJ were also grouped by weight. Thankfully I was doing Nightshift back then and did all the prep work at work.

[Tazza]

When I was Full-bore shooting back in the late 80's early 90's my Omark had a new Black Mountain barrel fitted 7.62. All my brass was ADI single flashhole brass... It was only new back then. everything used to be MFF Berdan cases. All got FLS. fired then flashholes uniforned, neck sized, neck turned, trimed, weighed and water capacity checked ad grouped into 24 case lots. ADI 144gn FMJ were also grouped by weight. Thanksfully I was doing Nightshift back then and did all the prep work at work.

This is why i stick with hand gunning, i can't be stuffed going to that much effort on my reloading :) Then you hear people on FB groups big noting themselves being able to shoot blah blah at some silly range. I'm not ready to become a turd like that just yet

I'm going to have to get into rifle loading soon, we are looking at doing 3 gun matches soon, so i need to get some long boom sticks for that.

[Avenger442]

So it looks like everyone does pretty much what I do. I loaded up 300 rounds of .45 the other day with three different makes of brass. Same with .357 mag, .38 special and 44 magnum several different brands. But with the .308 I try to keep the same brand in any one shooting session. Usually Hornady or my personal favorite Remington. So far I get better groups with Remington. I've tried others but my .308s seem to like these. The 45-70 is all Hornady just because someone was running a sale. I've got a several different brands I load for .223.

I've tried outside neck turning with little success. It's one of those things that I'm still learning and testing. But de-burring the flash hole and uniforming the primer pocket seem to help a little with consistent FPS.

Ausglock how does the water capacity work? How do you do it?

I did have a coating question related to the brass. I don't usually get close to max loads but I had a few of the first rifle brass I used get some splits in the necks. Over worked and needed to be annealed I guess? I have tried annealing. Anyway, since heat is one of the things that causes brass to crack and the coating reflects heat, I wounder if it would be worthwhile to coat the brass. Would probably have to start out with new brass. And I can see some possible problem around the prime pocket and hole. And heating the brass to 375 F might have some weakening affect on the head area maybe or maybe not? Has anyone ever tried coating their brass?

253578
Happy Birthday

[Ausglock]

Water capacity.
After doing your case prep, Seat a fired primer by hand upside down. Place the case on digi scales calibrated for grains. Zero (tare) the scales when you place a case. Fill the case with water from a syringe until it fills the case to the mouth. Note the weight in Grains. Dump the water and deprime when all are done. Group the cases by capacity in grains. This ensures that the internal case dimensions are the same from shot to shot.
I used to do 24 cases as a batch as we fired 2 sighters and 10 to count in 2 strings

[Avenger442]

Thanks
I was wondering how you stopped up the hole.

[Petander]

Holy cow,sorting cases with water capacity like that... how much difference did it make?

My personal load record is 46 mm @ 600 meters,five shots. I didn't shoot it,my instructor friend did. He sometimes tests my loads,having access to longer ranges quite frequently. We both use standard off-the-shelf Tikka T3 tacticals, 300 WM.

I never sorted cases within one lot with water,only checked and they were close enough imo. Sako brass. My hat is off to you.

[Avenger442]

You guys probably already know this but people who shoot beyond 200-300 yards and bench rest shooters do a lot of things to get an extra .25 inches or even .1 at 100 yards. At 600 yards .25 inches in 100 becomes 1 1/2 inches. At 1000 yards, well you get the idea. And yes they can act like turds, as Tazzs pointed out, when talking about pistol ranges. There are some at the range I shoot at. I personally think that extreme accuracy at any distance with any weapon requires the right weapon and a lot of careful work.

Everything revolves around consistency. Pressure consistency when the round is fired is one of the things your looking for and depends on several things. Case capacity is one of them. Usually if you weigh cases and group them according to weight you get cases that are closer in capacity. That way is assuming a difference in the thickness of the walls of the cases causing a larger or smaller volume in the case. I can see how doing an actual measurement with water might give you a better idea of capacity. And yes it does make a difference according to my measurements at the range. An added 100 feet per second up and down spreads a group.

I got hooked on the accuracy thing not too long after I started coating. And have been learning a lot about how to have consistent ammo in a rifle that will perform. The Tikka T3 Tac A1 is a nice rifle capable of .5 inch groups at 100 yards. Because my loading hasn't exceeded the capabilities of the Remington 700 and Weatherby I have, both capable of 1" or a little better at 100 yards, I haven't needed to go to the chassis rifles like the Tikka or the Ruger Precision rifles. My groups with the Remington and Weatherby were averaging 1 1/2" with Hi Tek coated lead. When I get to averaging 1" and when I've got an extra $2000 I may buy a chassis rifle. I like that Ruger chassis rifle in .338 Lapua. You can reach out and touch something with that one.

Sorry, got carried away with that one. :hijack:

[Petander]

It's easy to get carried away.

Ten years ago,I used to shoot 500 meters every week. Can't do that in private land anymore, laws have changed and people are more sensitive to gunshots. Might call the cops,might lose your guns. Need proper ranges,means lots of arrangements and driving.

So I kinda quit long range,sold my 338 Lapua. I only shoot 300 WM 300 meters and do not aim to shrink groups past 30 mm that I'm getting on a good day with several bullets including Woodleigh Weldcore 200. Crazy hot load with VV N570, a true 1" load in my gun,doesn't work for my friend's similar gun. My 300 m record is 16 mm, 158 SMK.

I never went to cast with long range. But I went to fine tuning everything pretty deep... It can become an obsession if you are never satisfied with group size.

[Ausglock]

I was using an OMARK single shot 7.62 (308 Win) at 900 yards with open (iron) sights. no scopes.
prone, with only a sling around the arm for support. on a good day, could keep all the 10 shots in the central Bullseye at 900 Yards. the central was about the size of your head.
https://i.imgur.com/nM4PxN9.jpg

[Avenger442]

About an hour away we have a 600 yard range. But I’ve never shot there. You have to get three out of five in the 300 yard bullseye before they let you shoot the 600 yard. I’m still working with the 200 yard range where I shoot. When those become consistent 2” groups I’ll spend the money to shoot 300 and 600 yards. And I’m going to do it with cast lead.

[Petander]

Good stuff,Trevor. Long range shooting is like tobacco,you can quit but not forget.

I have a bolt action 22LR CZ that shoots beer cans or clays up to 230 meters. Used to do that a lot in the 90's. A. canted dot scope w turrets.

But it got out of hands. I remember how my friend shot a 300 m five group using 100 grain HP:s in 300 WM. That group was 12 mm. I found myself counting powder granules,buying big Zeisses,driving thousands of kms just to shrink my continuous group from 1" to under 20, in a good day,occasionally... hoping for 15 mm...Sold my Marlin, quut casting...

Then at one point I sort of woke up,had to choose. Now I'm having fun again!

[Petander]

Back to the topic:

https://i.postimg.cc/fWpqRxnJ/IMG-20191227-123124-611.jpg

Thank you very much,Joe!

[Tazza]

Back to the topic:

https://i.postimg.cc/fWpqRxnJ/IMG-20191227-123124-611.jpg

Thank you very much,Joe!

oooh what colours did you get?

[Petander]

oooh what colours did you get?

Most importantly Modified TMG Gold. I want to see if it works (for me,with my contaminated alloy) as good as old ,discontinued TMG Gold. Then there is True Blue as a "must have". Another gold and some Zombie Green...

I have a H&G 38 Special WC mold in the mail,coming any day. Almost pure mixed in the pot. Gonna start with Blue, can't wait...

[kevin c]

You got the blue? I still don't see it on Donnie's site )^;

[Petander]

You got the blue? I still don't see it on Donnie's site )^;

Yeah this came straight from Australia by Dropbear Express. We have no importer here in Finland so I'm buying directly from Joe.

[Tazza]

Yeah this came straight from Australia by Dropbear Express. We have no importer here in Finland so I'm buying directly from Joe.

dropbear express, i think we need to rename our post office network :)

[Vettepilot]

Thanks
I was wondering how you stopped up the hole.

Not sure which one, but one of the specialty companies sells a plug with an "O" ring on it for stoppering the primer hole for measuring case capacity with water. Some people use alcohol because it has less surface tension and thus is easier to get the case dead level full.

A friend with a lathe could make you a plug before you both had a chance to finish a beer... Well, maybe not, I can chug a beer pretty dam fast. [smilie=f:

Vettepilot

[kevin c]

That's great! I'll be ordering some when it comes in.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Kevin,
I have some inbound by sea freight, should be here in a few weeks. It's simply not practical to have shipped by air in the quantities I order.

I can't wait!
I just ordered up 3 new containers of powder for a buddy for Christmas. Now I'll need to place another order for the blue. I can't wait!

[Stephen Cohen]

I was using an OMARK single shot 7.62 (308 Win) at 900 yards with open (iron) sights. no scopes.
prone, with only a sling around the arm for support. on a good day, could keep all the 10 shots in the central Bullseye at 900 Yards. the central was about the size of your head.
https://i.imgur.com/nM4PxN9.jpg

Ahhhh that brings back fond memories, I still have 2 spare Black mountain barrels for mine, I doubt I will ever need them. I was a member of the Murwillumbah Rifle Club in the 70s and shot a possible at 900 yards once.. Old men and their old memories. Regards Stephen

[Ausglock]

Never shot at M/bah.
I shot Grafton, Coffs, Armidale, Kempsey, Warialda (Rocky Dam) Casino and Belmont.

Blokes I shot with were. John Stone, John Grebert, Bernie McDonald, Peter Picton and his brother George from Mungundi.
I ran into a few of them At Bernie McDonald's Funeral a few weeks ago.

[agentwolf]

Thanks much Petander!

800+ rounds
(HTC402-188-WFN-BV1-21)
(4) coats Hi-Tek: Gun Metal, Red Copper
Sized: .401
253838

[Petander]

Agentwolf,looking good!

I'm one click away from ordering a pots worth of bismuth casting alloy from Rotometals. Just to try.

If EU comes up with a total lead ban... I don't know what kind of craziness will follow but it's good to be prepared. Then we will need a new Hi Tek Bismuth coating and it will sell in Europe like butter. Lead ban will get more people into casting,using alternative alloys.

And already expensive bismuth price will skyrocket. Bullet trap sales go up. I will keep on shooting.

https://i.postimg.cc/0QwwQvPM/Screenshot-20191229-225134.png

[Burnt Fingers]

Kevin,
I have some inbound by sea freight, should be here in a few weeks. It's simply not practical to have shipped by air in the quantities I order.

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popc orn:

I need more powder. I'm waiting for the blue to show up.

[pastera]

Have been fighting with leading in a M&P 9c with Hi-Tek coated Lee 356-120-TC and Win 231.
Tried pure COWW @ .356 - no luck with harder alloy.
Removed the lube groove and opened up the mold to drop @ .358 and sized to .357 - still no luck.
Looked around, saw others had issues with M&P 9's with 231 and they recommended going with a slower powder.
Tried 0.357, 4.2g CFE Pistol @ 1.100" COAL - Success! 50 rounds and the barrel was perfectly clean where with 231 I couldn't go 20 without heavy leading.
Now to load up the 1k of cast and coated TCs and start having some fun.

[Petander]

Happy Blue Year,everyone!

https://i.postimg.cc/yY7nvdSw/IMG-20200101-003819-506.jpg

I fired five of these at 00.00 o' clock.

[HI-TEK]

Happy Blue Year,everyone!

https://i.postimg.cc/yY7nvdSw/IMG-20200101-003819-506.jpg

I fired five of these at 00.00 o' clock.

They look Beautiful.
You have done well.

[Ausglock]

Looks good.
All the R&D, pain and testing for a Blue has paid off.
Now... for Pink and Purple.

[HI-TEK]

Looks good.
All the R&D, pain and testing for a Blue has paid off.
Now... for Pink and Purple.

Now, with success of a stable Blue, it may be possible for a Purple, but not counting my chickens as yet.
A fair bit has to go into getting something that is acceptable and actually works.

[Petander]

I don't usually load this soon after casting / coating but these are dead soft anyway. I used a .359 expander for .3585 sized bullets. Redding profile crimp may squeeze them tiny little bit but less than half a thou.

Offhand relaxed plinking in low light.

https://i.postimg.cc/vBtg7xPp/IMG-20200101-162227-032.jpg

A pulled bullet:

https://i.postimg.cc/jdnbf0kb/IMG-20200101-164749-945.jpg

[Avenger442]

Petander

What was you bake temp and time in the oven? And how did your wipe test go?

[Petander]

Petander
How did your wipe test go?

Good. No "raw smell" when shooting either. If you've ever shot undercured you know.

With the oven in "TruBlu-setting", the bullets hit 180°C @ 5.30 min, I give them three more minutes and they hit max 190°C by then.

[Petander]

More plinking. These seem to fly straight and do not lead,it's time to do proper group testing soon.

Today I tried a classic mild 38 Special wadcutter load around 820 fps using whopping 0,21 grams (3.2 grns) of Vihtavuori N320. Too dark to chrono. I was above 1000 fps yesterday with 3N37.

https://i.postimg.cc/LsqmcxZ2/IMG-20200102-153053-934.jpg

Recovered some bullets from a pine tree trunk - my BHN is 5!!! TruBlu is still hanging on there. And this is my first TruBlu bake ever so I'm no pro at all. But my barrel and cylinders are clean.

https://i.postimg.cc/MGtTy9jS/IMG-20200102-152308-787.jpg

Loading soft bullets really really needs a proper size expander. Also long enough. My NOE here is .359, bullet being .3585. Seats straight and nice.

https://i.postimg.cc/2STp8MZn/IMG-20200102-152739-827.jpg

All in all I'm impressed by Hi Tek,again.

[Avenger442]

Really like those soup can bullets for punching holes in paper. Slide sent me some with a hollow base when we were testing PC and HiTek. Those bullets were very accurate of hand. And I'm no bullseye shooter with a hand gun. Slides a really nice guy. He even sent me some Orange and Blue bullets for Christmas.

254076

I've been working with the Tru Blue but just haven't got it to stay blue and pass wipe test. Still working on it and talking with Donnie. I think he said he had some success with the blue. Obviously with Petander's post it is doable I just haven't got there yet.

254077
Before Bake

254078
After Bake

Bullet by itself on the left was 4 min between 180 C and 190 C. Failed wipe test. Came off down to lead.

Bullet by itself on the right is 6 min at same temp. A little color on the wipe but not down to lead

Bullets in the middle were 8 min at same temp. Very little on cloth when wipe tested.

Those things with the wire attached are two coated 45-70s. Wires run to two remote thermometers.

Like I said still working with it and will post when successful.

[Petander]

Oven temp is such a strange thing.

My 2kw wall oven dial is pretty accurate when we talk air temp. I have both a digital and mechanical thermometers in there. I set oven to 190°C and they all read 190.

But I have a radiant heat issue. My bullets get hotter than the air and I know my oven by now so I baked TruBlu in 180°C. That way the bullets get to 190°C. My normal bake is 190°C air temp,then my bullets get to 200.

I have checked temps with two different IR thermometers for a year now and I trust them - without knowing the real,absolute temperature. Coatings are reflective,plain lead reads a bit differently. My oven bakes hotter on the right side. All that jazz.

Confusing enough? Not really, I dial 190°C for 8 lbs, 8 minutes,all good. For TruBlu, I dial 180°C again 8 min.

I remember when I used 200°C setting, the bullets hit 220 °C at nine min. Air 200 all the time.

[Petander]

Oh,IR reads differently compared to a probe in the same bullet.

So I don't really know any absolute,real temps. But a powerful oven is easier than a little one,I'm on my third oven now.

[slide]

Avenger 442 I sent you a p.m.

[Conditor22]

To help with understanding the "down unders"
https://i.imgur.com/ogCqqQm.jpg

[dikman]

:lol: Pretty good, unfortunately some of the younger folk these days don't appreciate the inherent subtlety and conciseness of Australian colloquialisms.
A minor correction, however, "howya going" is generally used as 'ow ya goin', a bit more relaxed than the Queen's English version. The answer is often "orright".:smile:

[HI-TEK]

I've been working with the Tru Blue but just haven't got it to stay blue and pass wipe test. Still working on it and talking with Donnie. I think he said he had some success with the blue. Obviously with Petander's post it is doable I just haven't got there yet.

254077
Before Bake

254078
After Bake

Bullet by itself on the left was 4 min between 180 C and 190 C. Failed wipe test. Came off down to lead.I am guessing, that the temperature you were quoting may have been oven temperature

Bullet by itself on the right is 6 min at same temp. A little color on the wipe but not down to lead

Bullets in the middle were 8 min at same temp. Very little on cloth when wipe tested.

Those things with the wire attached are two coated 45-70s. Wires run to two remote thermometers.

Like I said still working with it and will post when successful.[/QUOTE]

Two things that need explanations is
1. If coating/projectiles has been subjected to 180C for adequate time, so coated cast is at 180C, why was there a total wipe off????
2. With over baking, there seemed to be also a wipe off, and colour became Green.
These two things are of concern, as it does not make sense.
Under baked coatings will wipe off with solvent.
Over baked coating will change colour but should not wipe off with solvent test.
Something is wrong with these results.

[Avenger442]

Two things that need explanations is
1. If coating/projectiles has been subjected to 180C for adequate time, so coated cast is at 180C, why was there a total wipe off????
2. With over baking, there seemed to be also a wipe off, and colour became Green.
These two things are of concern, as it does not make sense.
Under baked coatings will wipe off with solvent.
Over baked coating will change colour but should not wipe off with solvent test.
Something is wrong with these results.[/QUOTE]

I agree Joe. As you know I'm a fan of the coating especially the 1035 Gold in my rifles.

Have been considering what might be wrong. Do you think it might be a lack of catalyst? This being the powder it might have settled out to the bottom of the jar? A good stirring and shaking up might fix that. Or I could add some of the liquid catalyst that I have. Quite frankly I'm not sure what the problem is. With the measuring of temp and time I'm pretty sure they are right.

Another note is that all times turned green.

[HI-TEK]

Two things that need explanations is
1. If coating/projectiles has been subjected to 180C for adequate time, so coated cast is at 180C, why was there a total wipe off????
2. With over baking, there seemed to be also a wipe off, and colour became Green.
These two things are of concern, as it does not make sense.
Under baked coatings will wipe off with solvent.
Over baked coating will change colour but should not wipe off with solvent test.
Something is wrong with these results.

I agree Joe. As you know I'm a fan of the coating especially the 1035 Gold in my rifles.

Have been considering what might be wrong. Do you think it might be a lack of catalyst? This being the powder it might have settled out to the bottom of the jar? A good stirring and shaking up might fix that. Or I could add some of the liquid catalyst that I have. Quite frankly I'm not sure what the problem is. With the measuring of temp and time I'm pretty sure they are right.

Another note is that all times turned green.[/QUOTE]

Where did you get the TRUBLU powder?
Is this the one that was tested by Donnie?
If it is, I also had that same batch tested locally before we sent it for evaluations.
You can try adding some liquid Catalyst to a premix of the powder, but I feel that there is something else not right.
What was Donnie's suggestions?

[Petander]

I have no suggestions for Avenger,sounds strange.

I'll give TRUBLU another minute next time I bake, probably tomorrow. Just to see what the colour says baked longer, here in my oven.

I'm totally in love with these mild H&G wadcutters and my "new" Mod 14 from 1972. But I gotta say,being otherwise a clean gun,that thing had the hardest ancient carbon deposits in cylinders,ever. Tiny little rock hard rings.

Colour coding loads comes in handy here,again. Yeah, TRUBLU for target, CandyApple for +P Wadcutter... great fun!

https://i.postimg.cc/90MHG65s/IMG-20200104-021559-211.jpg

[Avenger442]

Joe
PM sent in reply to above.

[Petander]

One more minute. TruBlu got a little darker as expected. But not green.

In the pic here they look much darker than they are,a very difficult light now.

https://i.postimg.cc/gJ1yj7Zq/IMG-20200105-130333-543.jpg

[HI-TEK]

One more minute. TruBlu got a little darker as expected. But not green.

In the pic here they look much darker than they are,a very difficult light now.

https://i.postimg.cc/gJ1yj7Zq/IMG-20200105-130333-543.jpg

Petander,
They certainly are Blue with extra heating time.
Did you get final temperature of coated cast, after the extra heating time?
Just curious what temperature was reached where coating remained blue.

[Petander]

Petander,
They certainly are Blue with extra heating time.
Did you get final temperature of coated cast, after the extra heating time?
Just curious what temperature was reached where coating remained blue.

Yes,IR was reading 188-194°C at the end of bake. Bullets were above 180 for the last four minutes. Or 3.45...

[HI-TEK]

Yes,IR was reading 188-194°C at the end of bake. Bullets were above 180 for the last four minutes. Or 3.45...

Petander,
That is very interesting and encouraging indeed.

Can I request, if you you please do more tests, by increasing cook time, at an extra 1 minute intervals, until the coating starts to go Green or change colour.

If possible please record final temperatures, and photograph each result, after each 1 minute extra cooks, and this will also determine just how long the coating can be baked at a set temperature and remain colour stable.
Later progressive photos can be then directly compared.

With these tests, being carried out in same oven, we can be certain what this coating will withstand, before any noticeable changes take place.
Thanking you much in advance,

[Petander]

Can I request, if you you please do more tests, by increasing cook time, at an extra 1 minute intervals, until the coating starts to go Green or change colour.

If possible please record final temperatures, and photograph each result, after each 1 minute extra cooks, and this will also determine just how long the coating can be baked at a set temperature and remain colour stable.
Later progressive photos can be then directly compared.


Will do.

I have no more uncoated bullets to bake TruBlu again today but I'm about to finish cooking Zombie Green and TMG Gold right now. I'm using the same 180°C oven temp setting. Observing with IR again.

It's possible to manually fight radiant heat a little. When I open the door for a couple of seconds every minute after six minutes of the bake,it slows down excessive heat build-up. I bet the bullets would go above 200°C after 10 min if I don't open the door to take measurements. Air inside stays around 180°C.

If I ever get a PID I'll put the thermocouple in a dummy bullet.



https://i.postimg.cc/bYRqnYjZ/IMG-20200105-135842.jpg

[Petander]

All these are the same 180°C bake. Yes that's my oven temp.

I'm following bullet temps with an IR meter. Bullets hit 180°C @ 5.30 min,then they get hotter with radiant heat , finally being 190-195°C @ 9 min when they come out. I know it sounds confusing but my oven AIR TEMP is 180°C. For example,the bullets are 190°C @ 7 min. The 2 kW element radiation warms the bullets hotter than the oven is.

Could it be that I'm eventually getting Zombie Green look right?

https://i.postimg.cc/9FyTxvt7/IMG-20200105-185544-841.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MGHn84Rt/IMG-20200105-190023-744.jpg

[HI-TEK]

All these are the same 180°C bake. Yes that's my oven temp.

I'm following bullet temps with an IR meter. Bullets hit 180°C @ 5.30 min,then they get hotter with radiant heat , finally being 190-195°C @ 9 min when they come out. I know it sounds confusing but my oven AIR TEMP is 180°C. For example,the bullets are 190°C @ 7 min. The 2 kW element radiation warms the bullets hotter than the oven is.

Could it be that I'm eventually getting Zombie Green look right?

https://i.postimg.cc/9FyTxvt7/IMG-20200105-185544-841.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/MGHn84Rt/IMG-20200105-190023-744.jpg


Petander,
You are correct with radiant heat.
If you think about a simple situation, if you have an air temperature of say 30C outside in your garden, if you place a piece of steel outside, that steel becomes much hotter than the 30C air temperature.
I have had a steel gate at 58C when air temperature outside was only 30C.

The reason for this can be mainly explained as below;
1. Radiation is absorbed from heat source (Sun), in an oven, from heating element.
2. The steel does not get enough air flow around it to get rid of the excess heat build up.
3. Air is a very poor conductor of heat. Without fast air movement and circulation around an object, the static air will not remove built up heat adequately, to the same outside air temperature of 30C, so the metal builds up more heat, and way above ambient air temperatures.

This is the reason why I keep repeating my suggestion, to have a mini cyclone inside an oven, to move air around, to even out such heat build up with products being baked.
Also, measuring air temperature inside an oven, will not be representative of the temperature of items being baked.
People get over baked loads, and state that the oven temperature was at 180C. When looking at the final colour of the coating, it quickly exposes true conditions, which does not agree with the 180C as being assumed as being the product temperature.

[Petander]

Spot on,Joe.

Baking cakes or steaks is different because they are full of water that evaporates and prevents burning.

Here you can see 8 min and 9 min colour difference,I exaggerated "colour saturation" a little to see better. In another words, 3 min @ 180-190°C vs 4 min @180-190°C.

I have fired many of those 8/3 min bullets in 38 Special. They are fully cured and do not lead.

https://i.postimg.cc/PqdsVd93/IMG-20200106-135146-712.jpg

[HI-TEK]

Will do.



If I ever get a PID I'll put the thermocouple in a dummy bullet.



https://i.postimg.cc/bYRqnYjZ/IMG-20200105-135842.jpg

Petander,
PID Controller are reasonably cheap.
The benefit of a PID controller is, that the temperature sensing probe that is inside a Cast alloy sitting on top of your load, when this is sensing probe is telling the PID that temperature is higher than the PID settings, the PID simply turns off heating element.
That way you take care of your load getting too hot from Radiant/overheat.
You also save on power, and get very even reproducible baking results.

It is important, that PID controller is only wired to heating element.
You can also benefit with a separate micro switch on the oven door, that will turn off oven fan when you open oven door. That way you lose less heat when opening the oven door and you don't get a hot blast into your face when opening the oven door.

[Petander]

Yep I know how PID:s work. I'm a "half-electrician",dropped off from an electrician school for rock'n roll back in the day. I was building radio transmitters and guitar amps when I was 15.

This particular oven has multiple elements and fans controlled by multiple thermocouples already. There is a continuous fan and another blower that goes on/off,adjusting the temp. It is working individually from the elements.

If I go PID I'll use another over with continuous fans and a simple circuit to begin with. This one holds the air temp extremely well as it is now. I can adjust my bullet surface temps pretty accurately,now that I have been following them with an IR meter every minute. Left,center,right. I know the graphs.

Even with a PID and a thermocouplebullet,this oven will have the same cold/hot spots unless it gets more circulation. More circulation will mess up the currently working design... Temperature variation is not big enough to show in a batch of bullets,I get an even bake with no darker ones.

Opening the door a little for two seconds to take a reading is not a problem. Air temp drops by 2°C,that is actually a good thing when fighting radiant heat. I don't keep opening the door randomly when I bake.

I remember when I got the first oven,reading this board I got the idea that it has to be "a cheap toaster oven". So I got the crappiest one there was,an underpowered piece of crap. I did't have coatings yet so I did lots of " dummy load bakes", having probes inside bullets,in the oven,also IR meters... I figured out the bake before actually baking.

All those different temp readings were interesting to say the least. Then when I got the coatings I didn't measure much at all anymore, "knowing" the bake and temps. Well,it was fine except the oven had already lost half of its power without me noticing of course. So I started with underbaking. Haha.

[Petander]

Oh and the biggest reason for my "no PID yet"... when I see a soldering iron I get completely flegmatic and depressed. Can't function.

Somewhere around 1990 I said " life is a never ending cable making". I've been moving,building and maintaining recording studios,small and large,since the 70's... always with that stupid iron in my hand. And pliers. Someone should make an album cover with a soldering iron.

Smashing Pumpk... Bullets,maybe?

https://i.postimg.cc/RVdtKwXh/IMG-20200107-133501-168.jpg

[dikman]

Petander, just an idle thought, can you put a metal plate (or something) in front of the heating element to reduce the radiant heat?

[HI-TEK]

Spot on,Joe.

Baking cakes or steaks is different because they are full of water that evaporates and prevents burning.

Here you can see 8 min and 9 min colour difference,I exaggerated "colour saturation" a little to see better. In another words, 3 min @ 180-190°C vs 4 min @180-190°C.

I have fired many of those 8/3 min bullets in 38 Special. They are fully cured and do not lead.

https://i.postimg.cc/PqdsVd93/IMG-20200106-135146-712.jpg

Petander
Just wondering what was final temperatures of baked load, at 3 minute time and at 4 minute time.
I suspect, that at the 4 minute time the projectiles were much higher than 180C
and probably more than 195+C.

We have had locally tested product, the final temperature was at 195C after bake. They were all Blue.

[Elkins45]

I’m going to jump in with a totally tangential question. Has anyone used Hi-Tek as a coating for lead fishing weight or lures? I normally paint my home cast lures with nail polish or enamel paint, but the idea of coating them in bulk is appealing. I assume the coating holds up to water when cured, given that it can survive the trip down a gun barrel.

[Stephen Cohen]

I’m going to jump in with a totally tangential question. Has anyone used Hi-Tek as a coating for lead fishing weight or lures? I normally paint my home cast lures with nail polish or enamel paint, but the idea of coating them in bulk is appealing. I assume the coating holds up to water when cured, given that it can survive the trip down a gun barrel.

I have coated a few sinkers so I could teach the little gran kids to set up their own lines, Young kids being what they are run a higher risk of lead poison in my view. Be mindful you can't coat inside the hole. Regards Stephen. Ps I recently coated a steel lure that was one I got from my grandad and the gold looks good.

[HI-TEK]

I’m going to jump in with a totally tangential question. Has anyone used Hi-Tek as a coating for lead fishing weight or lures? I normally paint my home cast lures with nail polish or enamel paint, but the idea of coating them in bulk is appealing. I assume the coating holds up to water when cured, given that it can survive the trip down a gun barrel.

Elkins45
Great question.
Many years ago, I used to fish using Snapper sinkers, made from scrap Lead of unknown composition, from 1/4 pound to 1 1/2 pound size.
I did paint by brush, various colours/patterns on the Lead, dried and baked them.
The intent was to cause an attraction to fish with various colours. I always caught a lot of fish with or without painted sinkers, but people on the charter boat we used, were convinced, that I was cheating by using "lures" (painted sinkers) that they had no access to.
I simply said, I use what ever I can to catch fish, that is why I paid moneys to charter boats to go fishing. I don't want to pay and get no fish. I want value for my moneys paid, and, if I don't use every opportunity to catch more fish, I may as well go down to the fish Co-Op to buy fish.
I fished in salt water, and after a while the coating did start peeling off the Lead. It never occurred to me at that time that contaminations in the Lead reacted with the salt water causing spalling and lifting the coating.

[Petander]

Petander
Just wondering what was final temperatures of baked load, at 3 minute time and at 4 minute time.
I suspect, that at the 4 minute time the projectiles were much higher than 180C
and probably more than 195+C.

We have had locally tested product, the final temperature was at 195C after bake. They were all Blue.

Yes,the four minute one was 195°C at the end ,but for less than a minute.

It is blue,the one to the right,9 min, is the same bullet that you can see here,on this page in my previous posts. It's just in a different light so we can better see the slight difference to the 8 min colour.

The same bullet,same bake and batch here all the way. Just a different light.

https://i.postimg.cc/Dy7xwvkt/IMG-20200108-082253-972.jpg.

[HI-TEK]

Yes,the four minute one was 195°C at the end ,but for less than a minute.

It is blue,the one to the right,9 min, is the same bullet that you can see here,on this page in my previous posts. It's just in a different light so we can better see the slight difference to the 8 min colour.

The same bullet,same bake and batch here all the way. Just a different light.

https://i.postimg.cc/Dy7xwvkt/IMG-20200108-082253-972.jpg.

In your bulk, you show Green and Gold. Are these Zombie and TMG?
Your oven seems to continue heating past the 180C as set. You should not be getting or need to be getting a finished temperatures at 195C.
Coated Cast needs to get to 180C and held there for about 2-3 minutes.
Temperatures should not continue to rise, because this adds to changes of final colours.
At 195C, those colour changes become more rapid and more noticeable.
Coating works OK at 195C, but some like reproducible colour each batch.

[Petander]

Yes I'm just testing here to see how the colours change. I'm not complainining,I don't know why everyone takes my post as me having problems with coatings nowadays...?


Petander,

Can I request, if you you please do more tests, by increasing cook time, at an extra 1 minute intervals, until the coating starts to go Green or change colour.

If possible please record final temperatures, and photograph each result, after each 1 minute extra cooks, and this will also determine just how long the coating can be baked at a set temperature and remain colour stable.



Did I get that wrong?

Because of radiant heat,the bullets are 180@5.30, 185@7.00 , 190@8.00 and 195@9.00. That's in the middle of the tray,left side bullets are 5C lower, right side 5C higher. That's how the oven behaves when air is 180.

Baking cooler is not a problem but it took me 12 bakes to confirm the temps above, I don't want to go lower five degrees and spend another day observing right now.

Especially because these postings of mine seem to to cause more confusion than good.

I go shooting now.

[HI-TEK]

Yes I'm just testing here to see how the colours change. I'm not complainining,I don't know why everyone takes my post as me having problems with coatings nowadays...?



Did I get that wrong?

Because of radiant heat,the bullets are 180@5.30, 185@7.00 , 190@8.00 and 195@9.00. That's in the middle of the tray,left side bullets are 5C lower, right side 5C higher. That's how the oven behaves when air is 180.

Baking cooler is not a problem but it took me 12 bakes to confirm the temps above, I don't want to go lower five degrees and spend another day observing right now.

Especially because these postings of mine seem to to cause more confusion than good.

I go shooting now.

Petander,
Please do not think that I have a problem with what you have done. It is great work.
I am not confused at all with your postings.

The questions I asked, simply is educating me with how different conditions affect final coatings, and, effects of radiant heat, versus set oven air temperatures.

You have clearly shown why colours may change. That is great.

There are many who would have not be aware of what was going on, when they had products that were over cooked, when they had a set temperature for oven.

From measuring oven air temperatures, they assumed from oven settings, they should have had produced correct results.
We now know, why this happened with your testing and posting.
Thanks much

[slide]

Hey Joe,
Got a question. This is off subject. Does hi-tek coating once it is baked have a BHN? I have seen the photos of the sawed bullets and realize the coating is thin. Just curious.

[HI-TEK]

Hey Joe,
Got a question. This is off subject. Does hi-tek coating once it is baked have a BHN? I have seen the photos of the sawed bullets and realize the coating is thin. Just curious.

Slide,
that is a great question. The BHN is not something that has been tested.
Once coating is applied, and baked, doing a test may or may not give an adequate result.
The coatings are generally thin, and in majority of cases, final coating thickness is about 1.5 to 2 thou.
I really cannot advise how an accurate measurement can be made for a BHN.

[slide]

Thanks Joe!

[HI-TEK]

Thanks Joe!

Slide,
did some work on your question.
It is a difficult area to measure.
With the range of tests, the BHN hardness of Hi-Tek coatings seems to indicate to be around 35 to 40.

[slide]

Interesting! Surely it adds some hardness to the bullet especially if you do three to four coats. I have a hardness tester. I am going to play around with it. I don't know if it is precision enough to do anything with. It is one of the cabine tree tester's.

[HI-TEK]

Interesting! Surely it adds some hardness to the bullet especially if you do three to four coats. I have a hardness tester. I am going to play around with it. I don't know if it is precision enough to do anything with. It is one of the cabine tree tester's.

Slide,
the coating may be adequately hard to work, but it is a surface phenomena, but I don't know if it adds hardness to an alloy.

[slide]

It is fun to try!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HI-TEK]

It is fun to try!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Slide,
I look forward to your experiments and results.
My guess is, that a thin film, one, two or three coats, may affect the hardness test. I am thinking, if you coat a projectile, do hardness after bake, then scrape off some coating, and do hardness on the metal. If you are lucky, there may be a measurable difference.

[slide]

Thanks Joe. I will give it a try!

[HI-TEK]

Slide
PM sent...

[Stephen Cohen]

I cast 500 gr .460 for my 458wm and little gran daughter loved to stack them up like blocks, I kept a box of well coated ones for her visits and at almost 2yrs she could stack 5 high which I found difficult to do. I know there will be those who think this is a bad idea but the child would wash he hands well after playing with them. That very box of her bullets sits on my desk now as she is much older now and would rather play with guns. The picture of the coloured bullets above posted by Petander reminds me of those days. Regards Stephen

[Tazza]

I cast 500 gr .460 for my 458wm and little gran daughter loved to stack them up like blocks, I kept a box of well coated ones for her visits and at almost 2yrs she could stack 5 high which I found difficult to do. I know there will be those who think this is a bad idea but the child would wash he hands well after playing with them. That very box of her bullets sits on my desk now as she is much older now and would rather play with guns. The picture of the coloured bullets above posted by Petander reminds me of those days. Regards Stephen

I think that's a great story, they are coated, so no lead contact, it also made her not be scared of guns, good to see grand dad did his part in that :)

[Jhopson]

I cast 500 gr .460 for my 458wm and little gran daughter loved to stack them up like blocks, I kept a box of well coated ones for her visits and at almost 2yrs she could stack 5 high which I found difficult to do. I know there will be those who think this is a bad idea but the child would wash he hands well after playing with them. That very box of her bullets sits on my desk now as she is much older now and would rather play with guns. The picture of the coloured bullets above posted by Petander reminds me of those days. Regards Stephen

Thanks for telling this story. My grandkids are fascinated with my bullet casting process, and I try to keep a bucket of “mixed” coated bullets for them to sort and “help” papaw with.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Burnt Fingers]

I’m going to jump in with a totally tangential question. Has anyone used Hi-Tek as a coating for lead fishing weight or lures? I normally paint my home cast lures with nail polish or enamel paint, but the idea of coating them in bulk is appealing. I assume the coating holds up to water when cured, given that it can survive the trip down a gun barrel.

I've made a LOT of lead slabs for fishing and other lures too.

A homemade fluid bed and powder paint has been and will be how I paint my fishing stuff. Better color selection and better coverage.

[Burnt Fingers]

I'm waiting for the blue to show up here in the US. I need to place an order but I'm really waiting for the blue to be available.

[Petander]

Modified TMG Gold.

This seems to have the same elastic toughness as the original TMG. Me likes. A bit too much green in the pic from a LED lamp.

Thank you Joe.

https://i.postimg.cc/mgV5znS8/IMG-20200109-192109-370.jpg

[Stephen Cohen]

I can understand Petander and his love for the Gold, while I am pretty sure that it was just coincidence but the best sub MOA groups I have fired from my 458 375 and 357Max have all been with the Gold, maybe this is because they looked so good I was in a better frame of mind. It was the accuracy I get that convinced an old mate that snail snot and 1000fps cast was not where his 30/06 should be. I can understand the reluctance people had and some still have about Hi-Tek, not because of Hi-Tek itself, but the coatings that come on some early commercially cast bullets. There are still some companies using what ever coating and it can be picked off with a finger nail, and human nature being what it is all coatings were put in the same bucket. I have to admit that I was guilty of also branding all coatings under the same banner until I tried it for myself. I am happy to say that naked cast are a rare thing to see in my club now. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

I can understand the reluctance people had and some still have about Hi-Tek, not because of Hi-Tek itself, but the coatings that come on some early commercially cast bullets. There are still some companies using what ever coating and it can be picked off with a finger nail, and human nature being what it is all coatings were put in the same bucket. I have to admit that I was guilty of also branding all coatings under the same banner until I tried it for myself. I am happy to say that naked cast are a rare thing to see in my club now. Regards Stephen

Hi Stephen,
I completely agree with your observations.
Some time ago, I was made aware of commercial casters products being not so good.
In several follow ups, it was discovered, that to push out production volumes, not adequate quality controls were in place.
There was a tendency to use far too much coating, and they were not dried adequately before baking.
There was some adhesion but inadequate, resulting in what you described.
The other problem was found, that some had used or had been supplied questionable quality alloy, and scrap was also used that may have been contaminated and inadequately furnaced.
Even with proper initial bonding, passing all tests, the long term storage stability of coated projectiles containing contaminated alloy was not that great.
What seemed to happen is that the alloy contaminations formed powdery film on alloy surface, that began spalling between coating and alloy, thereby lifting off the coating. These type of reactions were more noticeable and faster in very humid areas.
I think many had learnt from these experiences.
I would not be surprised if some of these partially spalling casts are in possession of customers who use few casts annually, as they buy in bulk to save on costs, then store products for years afterwards.
Those who use larger amounts would consistently have fresh stocks and the spalling would not be a problem.

[Stephen Cohen]

Hi Joe, I am sure what you stated above is correct. I still have some of my original cast and coated from years back when you first become a member here, much of that alloy was range and wheel weights and they are as perfect today as they were back then, I also have some very questionable alloy that I know contained Zinc and God knows what else which I used to cast some very hard 500gr Buffalo stompers, these were cast at least 5yrs ago and have shown no problems as yet however some of the rejected ones I did actually put them out in the weather and they did form a white crusty powder as you pointed out. I recently moved my entire coated cast store and I can say with all honesty I will not live long enough to use all I have so I do tend to spread them around and as yet have had no complaints about their quality. If I must use Zinc contaminated lead I used sulphur to remove it from the melt. I don't claim to be an expert at this coating game but I do owe Ausglock for much of what I have learned. I think Hi-Tek is more forgiving than some may think, yes it is easy to fail if one does not follow the instructions in the beginning, but as Petander has found, even contaminated alloy makes good bullets once you gave him the secret of acid washing. I must say I still find it hard to forgive those commercial suppliers who had me removing lead from many Rifles Revolvers and Auto pistols. Regards Stephen

[Petander]

Ta-dam! Fanfares?

These are my first Bismuth bullets. TMG Gold bonds just fine, I sized these with no extra lube. Bismuth alloy seems to cast larger than lead alloys,also pretty hard. And brittle.

I added 10% tin to old bismuth shot,this melts below 190°C so I've been really watching coating temps...

https://i.postimg.cc/hGtD6BL4/IMG-20200110-195106-060.jpg

[Ausglock]

I have a few 1000 180gn FP 40 cal topscore bullets here from 2000. Have been moving them from the gunroom to the shed. smashed one yesterday... perfect. Not bad for a 20 year old coated lead bullet. Going to melt them down and re-cast for 9mm. Don't need 40 cal pills anymore..

[slide]

It seems the thermocouple in the bullet is catching on with the powder coating crowd. The only problem is there have been a couple of guys who have acutally tried to claim credit for the idea. I have had a running battle with one of them.Wonder I don't get banned. Anyway, if it is ok I would like to dub it the a.t.m. Ausglocks' thermocouple method. What do you think?

[HI-TEK]

It seems the thermocouple in the bullet is catching on with the powder coating crowd. The only problem is there have been a couple of guys who have acutally tried to claim credit for the idea. I have had a running battle with one of them.Wonder I don't get banned. Anyway, if it is ok I would like to dub it the a.t.m. Ausglocks' thermocouple method. What do you think?

Hello Slide
If my memory serves me well, I think Ausglock posted his thermocouple probe matters & details some years ago. I recon, it would have been read and adopted by others.
Ausglock recently published the more detailed probe results, and also said that his first test he did not bother logging detailed temperature increases with time.
I think Ausglock needs to licence his probe method to others.

[Stephen Cohen]

Ta-dam! Fanfares?

These are my first Bismuth bullets. TMG Gold bonds just fine, I sized these with no extra lube. Bismuth alloy seems to cast larger than lead alloys,also pretty hard. And brittle.

I added 10% tin to old bismuth shot,this melts below 190°C so I've been really watching coating temps...

https://i.postimg.cc/hGtD6BL4/IMG-20200110-195106-060.jpg

Will be interesting to see how they perform, but the cost of Bismuth would put an end to casting if we were not allowed to use lead alloys. Regards Stephen

[Ausglock]

What.. Licence my Anal Probe Method???? lol
Slide.....Mate... Knock ya self out.

The powdercoat clowns can do whatever they like, but powdercoat is still for lawn furniture...lol

[Petander]

Will be interesting to see how they perform, but the cost of Bismuth would put an end to casting if we were not allowed to use lead alloys. Regards Stephen

Bismuth is five times lead price now.

I see many europeans -who don't cast now- starting to cast alternative alloys if the lead ban comes through. All you need is bullet traps. Bismuth will get more expensive.

It's a disguised disarmament plan but well, there have been many examples as we all know. It may happen and I like to be prepared with knowledge to make legal ammo.

It's also a good reason to buy more guns because you don't want to use the same guns for bismuth tests and normal shooting practise. Heck I don't even mix copper and lead without cleaning and I have many lead-only guns.

Here are the first bismuth bullets I ever fired. Hi Tek TMG Gold coated. Thinking...I've never even seen a pic of a bismuth bullet group.

https://i.postimg.cc/zGBMBVmH/IMG-20200111-154920-413.jpg

[dikman]

but powdercoat is still for lawn furniture...lol
:lol::lol::lol:

[Stephen Cohen]

Bismuth is five times lead price now.

I see many europeans -who don't cast now- starting to cast alternative alloys if the lead ban comes through. All you need is bullet traps. Bismuth will get more expensive.

It's a disguised disarmament plan but well, there have been many examples as we all know. It may happen and I like to be prepared with knowledge to make legal ammo.

It's also a good reason to buy more guns because you don't want to use the same guns for bismuth tests and normal shooting practise. Heck I don't even mix copper and lead without cleaning and I have many lead-only guns.

Here are the first bismuth bullets I ever fired. Hi Tek TMG Gold coated. Thinking...I've never even seen a pic of a bismuth bullet group.

https://i.postimg.cc/zGBMBVmH/IMG-20200111-154920-413.jpg

Results look good, maybe we can expect a drop in the price of Bismuth along with flying pigs. Regards Stephen

[HI-TEK]

Results look good, maybe we can expect a drop in the price of Bismuth along with flying pigs. Regards Stephen

I have looked at world production of Bismuth.
Volumes seem reasonable but prices are already high.
If demand increases, prices will escalate, but if there is nothing else that will work, unfortunately, users will be held to ransom, and will pay these extra prices to continue at much conservative rates..
Many will simply give up and their guns will become ornaments.
I wonder how any government can suddenly outlaw all lead use in ammunition. What will armies, law enforcement and other government agencies use?

[HI-TEK]

I have a few 1000 180gn FP 40 cal topscore bullets here from 2000. Have been moving them from the gunroom to the shed. smashed one yesterday... perfect. Not bad for a 20 year old coated lead bullet. Going to melt them down and re-cast for 9mm. Don't need 40 cal pills anymore..

Goes to show, if correct alloy is used, not waste or contaminated alloys are used, there seems to be a great advantage for long term stability of coatings on good alloys.
I never expected such results after 20 years. It is really eye opening.

[Petander]

I wonder how any government can suddenly outlaw all lead use in ammunition. What will armies, law enforcement and other government agencies use?

According to the news,lead will be outlawed for civilians only. Surprise?

I'll keep experimenting with bismuth,if SHTF I'll have reasonable cards to play with. It may be like lead shot/waterfowl thing,it's been since 90's. You just got to have some legal non toxic ammo in your pockets to show. Nobody is going to actually examine the duck.

I went to tungsten because of increasing lead no-no's. A 20 gauge TSS is one great hunting shotgun.

Which Hi Tek colour cures in the lowest temp,TruBlu?

[HI-TEK]

Which Hi Tek colour cures in the lowest temp, TruBlu?

Petander,
All coatings cure at 180C. They have to reach 180C and stay there for about another 2 minutes.
Some of the colours suffer more with higher or extended heat of baking.
We found that over heating does alter final colours. This has been posted many times previously.
Ideally, the baked product, if possible, needs to be at about 180-190C after final bake times.
The Blue, can take about 190C to about 195C as long as it is not held at that temperature for prolong time.
The Probe in cast, placed in appropriate position with each load, is a really good way to determine actual load temperatures.
Once user does the profile of their oven with a certain load, it can be easily reproduced.
Unfortunately, each oven does vary, and users must be aware of their ovens ability and capacity to do the job required.