simple Hi-Tek coating

[Ausglock]

Shot Hi-Tek bullets (same load, same everything) through Beretta 92fs. No leading. Very uplifting.

So.. there ya go. After all the crying and moaning about the stuff being no good, You find it is good.....
Amazing.
Never liked Sig's myself...........

[Ausglock]

Oven update....

The elcheapo bi-metal thermostat in my Heller Oven died. The temp was only getting to 150 Deg C at the 200 setting.
I was wondering why I was getting severe wipeoff. I check the temp with the digi thermometer with a K sensor to verify.
So, Off to eBay I go.
Picked up a rotory thermometer with a capillary tube and bulb. Old school analog 0 to 300Deg C.

Pulled the cover off the oven and removed the dead thermostat.
The new one fitted right into the space of the old one.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20160213_113512.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20160213_113512.jpg.html)

The wiring also clipped straight onto the new unit. My biggest issue with this oven was that it did not have an indicator light for when the heating elements were working. So I drilled a hole in the front panel and fitted a red LED and wired it to the clips that attach to the heating elements.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20160213_113520.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20160213_113520.jpg.html)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20160213_113526.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20160213_113526.jpg.html)

The rotisory motor can be seen here. I drilled a hole below it and fitted a steel rod to the inside of the oven, below the wire rack and wired the Capillory and bulb to it. Sealed the hole with silicone sealer.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20160213_113545.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20160213_113545.jpg.html)

Pulled the cover off the rear mounted fan and re-sealed with silicone at all the heat leakage points.
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/20160213_113531.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/20160213_113531.jpg.html)

While the cover was off, I wrapped the sides and top of the oven with 1" thick rockwool insulation. Cut it around the heating element fittings and refitted the cover.

The new thermostat set at 200 reaches 210 before cutting out.
It cuts in again at 180. I can live with this.

Temps were checked with the Digi Thermometer with the 2 K sensors.

My bake time has been reduced by 2 minutes. from 12 back to 10.

The top of the oven is cool enough to actually keep you hand on it and not get burnt.

100% good job.

[Gremlin460]

Wot no PID Trev!!!??? really.. tsk tsk....

[Ausglock]

Yeah, yeah.
I'm going to PID the smaller Breville oven.... when I get time.
Have been testing about 8 new colours for HITEK Joe.
Very nice dark blue, Dark Green, Yellow lime and a powdered version of the liquid Kryptonite Green.
There is also a burnt Orange, A very brilliant gold.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Ausglock
new colours for HITEK Joe.
Very nice dark blue, Dark Green, Yellow lime and a powdered version of the liquid Kryptonite Green.
There is also a burnt Orange, A very brilliant gold.[/QUOTE]


New coloured photos attached
It seems, that finally, we hit jackpot with a Blue. A bit dark, but after years of trying,
I will take any thing blue.
Now that we have the right chemistry for obtaining the Blue colour, another version of a Blue colour will be trialed.
As results come in I will post, if successful results are obtained with version 2 Blue.

160826 160827 160828 160829

[Kjeksen87]

So.. there ya go. After all the crying and moaning about the stuff being no good, You find it is good.....
Amazing.
Never liked Sig's myself...........

Excuse me? I never said the stuff was no good. I was trying to get help to figure out why the leading occurs in my Sig and posted testing results along the way. That includes also the good ones. Sorry if this has hurt your feelings. I really do not understand your "tone" regarding this.

The conclusion is that something is up with the barrel of the Sig. I havent quite figured out what yet. But I will.

Whether you like Sig`s or not, is totally irrelevant. I find your answer to be quite obnoxious. I am only trying to get help here, and I have gotten alot of it. And to that, I thank the induvidials that have taken the time to do so.

[slide]

Hi-Tek Joe and Ausglock stike again!!!!! Hi Ho Silver!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Shotgundrums]

Hi-Tek Joe and Ausglock stike again!!!!! Hi Ho Silver!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Silver?..... Now there's a challenge. You listening , Joe? Congrats on the blue. Those are powders Yes? I like it. That green is ******. Like a leaf beetle shell green.

[slide]

Wonder where the Lone Ranger got his silver bullets? Cast then himself or maybe Tonto was a caster. Kimosabi or Kimosabe, Man, I hope I spelled that right.

[Shotgundrums]

I'm sure Trev was just poking n kiddn around.

[slide]

Easy guys, we don't want anybody to get banned.

[Avenger442]

Joe
I said I would buy the Orange and Blue and you made them. Thanks.
The only thin is I haven't been too concerned about my colors. Now I have to watch my temp and time closer to get the color. Well have to do what you have to do to get what you want.

Trevor = the sharp stick and the occasional colorful word (for bullets that is). :bigsmyl2: It was all a rib right Trevor?

[Ausglock]

I find your answer to be quite obnoxious.

Yep... That's me...:bigsmyl2:.
Mate... lighten up. I was only having a go at ya.
Jesus... some people are far to serious..
And I still don't like Sigs........

[Ausglock]

The photos Joe posted of the coloured samples are far brighter than in the photos.
The gold and the Green have gold sparkles in them that are so bright you need raybans to view them.

[Kjeksen87]

Yep... That's me...:bigsmyl2:.
Mate... lighten up. I was only having a go at ya.
Jesus... some people are far to serious..
And I still don't like Sigs........

Dude, I cant interpret other than what I read. Jokefull undertone, or sarcasm etc. Is sometimes hard to catch if you dont know the guy in the other end personally.

As for Sig`s. Have you tried a Euro made Sig? And not a US made " SIG "?
They are from what I have read in opposite end of the scale. I have only shot euro Sigs and they are Clockworks of gun. If you dont mind high bore-axis.

Now that being said. I do shot my Glock 19 much more than the Sig hehe.

[Ausglock]

Looking at getting a Glock 20 in 10mm.
Hurling large lumps of lead at high speeds.
Will have to checkout Accurate Molds website for a design for a grooveless bullet in the 220gn range.

[HI-TEK]

The photos Joe posted of the coloured samples are far brighter than in the photos.
The gold and the Green have gold sparkles in them that are so bright you need raybans to view them.

Well, there is another Gold version under test, it will be called Radiation Gold
This one "glows" in sunlight.

Also, there is another "green" that will also have interesting Kryptonite glow.

Under way is making up of another Blue, that may or may not work. Only time will tell.

With Silver, it is definitely a no go. None work, as none will stay Silver.
Lone Ranger must have used real Silver for his cast ammo...lol...lol...

[dikman]

Slide, I think it's spelled kemosabe? Mind you, it's a very long time since I used to read the Lone Ranger comics. Like that brilliant green, it's, umm, brilliant?

[Gremlin460]

OK so they been tested in NSW, so how about some to test in QLD??

[Ausglock]

Ha.. QLD is close enough to where they have been tested.

The Kryptonite Green is Proprietry In OZ... so hands off, Grem.

[HI-TEK]

As promised,
More test results on new colours.
Please note, the two attached, were made up by using 20grams to 150 mls solvent.
This seems to equate to more product coverage possibility using less coating. (What?????? did I just post that????)

6mls of mixture was used to coat 250 bullets, and two coats were baked after drying for 10 minutes with oven set at 200C.

Oven swing temperature was from 190 degrees C to 220 degrees C.
It made no difference with cooking, and temperature measured of the projectiles,the alloy did not change by more than 1 degree at half way point removal of tray to shake, then returned to oven to finish bake.
It seems, by repeat tests, that we have a blue finally that stays Blue, a nice Green as well(and both is in powdered form).

I would have liked the Blue a little lighter, but may be next developments, will allow a lighter Blue shade to be made.
The Green may also be darkened by a little extra cooking.
Baking times are all standardized at 200C and 10 minutes, for exact direct comparisons to be made.
160955 160956

[Ausglock]

I should increase my fee for all this testing....

[HI-TEK]

I should increase my fee for all this testing....

Double your current fee is applicable....lol lol

[Ausglock]

Hey!!!!! Double nothing is still nothing.........I've been screwed.... :bigsmyl2:

[Gremlin460]

Ha.. QLD is close enough to where they have been tested.

The Kryptonite Green is Proprietry In OZ... so hands off, Grem.

but but but but I just cast 30# over the last two days.... they NEED new colours!!!

[ioon44]

As promised,
More test results on new colours.
Please note, the two attached, were made up by using 20grams to 150 mls solvent.
This seems to equate to more product coverage possibility using less coating. (What?????? did I just post that????)

6mls of mixture was used to coat 250 bullets, and two coats were baked after drying for 10 minutes with oven set at 200C.

Oven swing temperature was from 190 degrees C to 220 degrees C.
It made no difference with cooking, and temperature measured of the projectiles,the alloy did not change by more than 1 degree at half way point removal of tray to shake, then returned to oven to finish bake.
It seems, by repeat tests, that we have a blue finally that stays Blue, a nice Green as well(and both is in powdered form).

I would have liked the Blue a little lighter, but may be next developments, will allow a lighter Blue shade to be made.
The Green may also be darkened by a little extra cooking.
Baking times are all standardized at 200C and 10 minutes, for exact direct comparisons to be made.
160955 160956


Your new colors look really good.

My oven swing temperature is 195 degrees C to 210 degrees C, I thought this might be too much but I guess not.

How long is your drying time and temp before baking?

[Kjeksen87]

How long is your drying time and temp before baking?

Also wondering about this.

[Ausglock]

Your new colors look really good.

My oven swing temperature is 195 degrees C to 210 degrees C, I thought this might be too much but I guess not.

How long is your drying time and temp before baking?

The coating gets mixed and left to re-act for 1 hour.
2Kg of bullets get 6mls of coating.
Swirl for 20 seconds (depends on ambient temp and humidity)
Minimum air drying time is 20 minutes at ambient (25 -35 deg C). This is with the tray of bullets sitting on a wire rack to allow air flow.

Oven warmed to the clickoff set temp.
Tray inserted and timer started.
At the 5 min mark, tray removed, shaken and turned 90 deg and re-inserted to oven ( takes about 3 seconds)
Tray removed for cooling at the 10 minute mark.
Cool under a box fan.
Wipe and smash test.
recoat and repeat.
Easy..
Working on a mix to try and get a Fluro Orange.

[Avenger442]

Working on a mix to try and get a Fluro Orange.

That's the one I'm looking for.

[Kjeksen87]

How much longer drying time is recomended when using MEK compared to Acetone?

[Ausglock]

Same.

[Shotgundrums]

Same.

Now now now, Trev... At one time you were saying MEK took longer. I personally can vouch for it taking longer as I have been using MEK almost exclusively. Plus as the coating solution ages (months), it seems to take longer and longer for evaporation... This is just my observation but the separated base solution at the top seems to darken as it ages as well. Not that you should be smelling it but it seems to change aroma too. I don't remember this happening when using acetone. Granted it all still works, I've had to do more force drying with older shelved MEK solution.

[Ausglock]

yeah, Yeah.

MEK takes longer to "dry" when you are swirl coating. Same time as Acetone with 20% Metho added to slow down drying.
But... once they are coated and placed for "Air drying" prior to baking, it is the same.

You lot that choose to live in cold climates will need longer air drying times prior to baking unless you run a warming fan etc etc.

We had 40 Deg C here yesterday with humidity of 80%. Thought I was in the jungles of SE Asia. Hot and sticky.

Old coating does smell "off" after a few months, but still works fine.

The experiment with Fluro Orange failed. Colour was too dark. I have now mixed a different brew to try again.

Will bake it tonight and see what happens.

Wanted:........ once fired 45ACP Nickel cases. about 500 or so. Brand does not matter, but must be large primer.

Thanks.

[Shotgundrums]

yeah, Yeah.

MEK takes longer to "dry" when you are swirl coating. Same time as Acetone with 20% Metho added to slow down drying.
But... once they are coated and placed for "Air drying" prior to baking, it is the same.

You lot that choose to live in cold climates will need longer air drying times prior to baking unless you run a warming fan etc etc.

We had 40 Deg C here yesterday with humidity of 80%. Thought I was in the jungles of SE Asia. Hot and sticky.

Old coating does smell "off" after a few months, but still works fine.

The experiment with Fluro Orange failed. Colour was too dark. I have now mixed a different brew to try again.

Will bake it tonight and see what happens.

Wanted:........ once fired 45ACP Nickel cases. about 500 or so. Brand does not matter, but must be large primer.

Thanks.

Well, scheisse. I'd be your nickel plated man if geography wasn't an issue.

I'm doing an experiment with my Dillon D 38/357 powder funnel and hopper. After loading 300+ 2x coated 9mils, I found the reason behind some recent anomalous leading... The 9mil F funnel just isn't cutting it anymore. I'm not getting enough case prep as it measures .353, doesn't quite expand enough and is intermittently thinning my twice-coated bullets' coating too severely (realized by pulling a few).

We'll see how it works and I'll report. If it does work, no need for custom 9mm powder funnel. Stand by.

[Ausglock]

Never had a problem with the F funnel for 9mm or 38 Super. Even when loading with .3575 dia pills.
I do use a rather largeish bell on my brass. A bevel base bullet will sit about 1 1/2 to 2mm down in the case mouth.
I run Lee seater die with a Dillon crimp die on the 550B.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Shotgundrums;3546155] I personally can vouch for it taking longer as I have been using MEK almost exclusively. Plus as the coating solution ages (months), it seems to take longer and longer for evaporation... This is just my observation but the separated base solution at the top seems to darken as it ages as well.

Shotgundrums
Your observations are correct.
Once product is made, with time, it will thicken, and also get darker.
Simple, add a little more thinners, Acetone or MEK, to reduce viscosity, (make thinner).
The odour may also change due to storage.
I have had product concentrate liquid, on the shelf in shed for 5 years, and it had a consistency of dark honey and dark colour.
Product after dilution worked just fine.
Strange stuff.
If possible, keep out of sunlight, keep in good sealed containers and keep cool.
All should be well.

[leadman]

I used some of the first liquid Red Copper I got from Donnie maybe 3? years ago. Had to shake the heck out of it to get the boolit inside the can to break loose. The liquid is a little darker but seems to have coated the boolits just fine. Stayed on when I sized them so next test is shooting them.

[Shotgundrums]

Never had a problem with the F funnel for 9mm or 38 Super. Even when loading with .3575 dia pills.
I do use a rather largeish bell on my brass. A bevel base bullet will sit about 1 1/2 to 2mm down in the case mouth.
I run Lee seater die with a Dillon crimp die on the 550B.

Maybe my practices need tweaked and I'm coating too thin... I usually use 1ml per lb. Even less on the first coat; first coat say 3lbs I might put 2mls with a mini splash of solvent to pick up residuals in the bucket.

If you're coating 2kg with 6mls (4.4 lbs U.S. To 6mls) then have I potentially been way off this whole time? I know you don't measure when you coat twice. But if you did, would you say you use 6mls for both coats? To me that seems thick, but then again from day one I remember echoing stutters on the emphasis of THIN is better lol. So, I don't know.

This newfound leading is with a new 135gr pill from Accurate molds. True Works of art, they make... So, the bullet is obviously longer. Shrug...

[Gremlin460]

ShotgunDrums... not being a squirter like Trev, I use a syringe for measurement, in 200 9mm 128gn pills I squirt exactly 6mm of mix, be it either powder or Liq. I mix at 20g/110ml acetone.
As Trev said, we have had a few warmer days of late, so 45 mins in the sun is ample. 42.3c and 35 R/Humidity dries them quite nicely.

[Ausglock]

Yep. 6mls per 2Kg of bullets.
This works fine.
I have virtually moved on from dribbling to accurate measuring.

Baked the second coat of the Orange/Gold.
Not quite HI-VIS Orange, but close.
Have mixed a different gold and will bake 1st coat in a few hours time.

[Kjeksen87]

Hot top tip for the dudes such as myself living in cold climate. Force dry in the convection oven. Set the oven for 30 - 50 degrees and leave the door a tad open for the acetone to escape. Works like a charm.

Shot some 9mm BHN 10 Hi-Tek coated bullets out of my Glock 19 yesterday. And almost no leading. I say almost because I could see 2 very VERY minor streaks of lead last cm of barrel. The 2 streaks was so minor that I am tempted to say no leading. Shot 100 shots.
Load was 3,8grs of Vihtavouri N320 COL 1.110". Theoretical QL pressure of 28 000 PSI.

Very good result considering that some had leading issues with soft BHN in 9mm earlier in this thread.

As for the coating I do myself here, I have noticed that my bullets have spottet coverage when using 1:5, 1ml pr 400grams of bullets. This was not visible with the naked eye but under a light magnifying glass. Think I need to upper my dose of Acetone (maybe its flashing off too fast) , or upper my dose of coating when tumbling. I do ofcourse more than 1 coat, but i resize after coat 1. This could maybe be a bad thing making the coating not bonding to the spots of bare lead on coat 2, because of the sizing.

[kryogen]

Never had a problem with the F funnel for 9mm or 38 Super. Even when loading with .3575 dia pills.
I do use a rather largeish bell on my brass. A bevel base bullet will sit about 1 1/2 to 2mm down in the case mouth.
I run Lee seater die with a Dillon crimp die on the 550B.

You cast hardball alloy that's why. softer lead gets squished if we don't expand more.

[Shotgundrums]

You cast hardball alloy that's why. softer lead gets squished if we don't expand more.

Well, I use hardball or similar as well. I may be coating too thin... From the OZ practices yeah, I coat too thin��
I am still experimenting with the 38/357 D funnel and getting it to work for 9mm on the press without integral parts modification.

[Kjeksen87]

Plenty shot through a Tanfoglio today, no leading at all with Hi-Tek Bronze 500. BHN 15-16 9mm. Love it.

[Shotgundrums]

Success!! My 38/357 D funnel experiment worked. I fashioned a hollow spacer to place between the top of the funnel and the powder hopper aperture leaving no clearance for loose funnel play. Diameter was close to funnel shank size and about .165" tall. Hole clearance was about the same as the powder hopper aperture size. Powder drop was unaffected. However, the D funnel expander portion is longer and did inflict a minor bulge at the case's midspan because it's contacting the beginning of the case web...not a big deal but I could machine it shorter and repolish it. I dumped some twice coated and tri coated pills out yonder. No leading... I hope this keeps true.

[Ausglock]

Success!! My 38/357 D funnel experiment worked. I fashioned a hollow spacer to place between the top of the funnel and the powder hopper aperture leaving no clearance for loose funnel play. Diameter was close to funnel shank size and about .165" tall. Hole clearance was about the same as the powder hopper aperture size. Powder drop was unaffected. However, the D funnel expander portion is longer and did inflict a minor bulge at the case's midspan because it's contacting the beginning of the case web...not a big deal but I could machine it shorter and repolish it. I dumped some twice coated and tri coated pills out yonder. No leading... I hope this keeps true.

Good job.

[Sgtonory]

Just started Hi-Tek coating with bronze 500. A few questions. Is any color on the wipe test a fail? I get the smallest tint when doing it. I am doing 6ml per 2kg and baking in a convection toaster oven for 15min set to 450. When i cook for 10min i get a major fail on the wipe test. Any downside to cooking over 15min? It passes the smash test. Also any downside to water dropping on last bake? Will that harden the boolit at all? Last question, the powder version of the bronze 500 come with the extreme cataliyst or normal?

[Sgtonory]

Also anyone know what color SNS casting is using ?

[Shotgundrums]

Just started Hi-Tek coating with bronze 500. A few questions. Is any color on the wipe test a fail? I get the smallest tint when doing it. I am doing 6ml per 2kg and baking in a convection toaster oven for 15min set to 450. When i cook for 10min i get a major fail on the wipe test. Any downside to cooking over 15min? It passes the smash test. Also any downside to water dropping on last bake? Will that harden the boolit at all? Last question, the powder version of the bronze 500 come with the extreme cataliyst or normal?

Yeah, wipe off is under-cured coating, no bueno (wipe for 30 whole seconds). Make sure your oven temp is correct. From there adjust as needed. Don't overload your oven, internal circulation is a good thing. I use a breville oven. Works great as it's more or less internally PID controlled from factory. With 9mm pills I usually bake 3lbs at a time. Do to surface area differences, larger bullets I usually bake 2.75lb. This way I keep bake time around 12-13ish minutes.

For testing, I will quickly pluck one slug out of the oven with needle nose pliers and close the oven door. I'll dunk that hot bullet in water to cool it, then commence with wipe and smash test. This is all very fast. If it passes, I'll remove all the finished bullets.

[Rich22]

I am amazed you guys are having success with coats that thick, I had a 50% failure rate at even 1.25 ml/ coat. I am now attempting .75 ml/lb first coat 1ml/lb second coat, size, then 1 ml/lb third coat. Pass all tests. Hopefully ill get to load testing in a few days.

[Ausglock]

Verify that your temp is really set to 200Deg C.
Cheap thermometers are just that....cheap.....and inaccurate.
Get a Digi K sensor type and use that to set your oven.
very slight wipe off ( can just see a tiny weenie slight colour on the cloth) is OK.
Is is better to bake too long, than too short. Long will darken the colour.
Short will cause failure

[Shotgundrums]

I am amazed you guys are having success with coats that thick, I had a 50% failure rate at even 1.25 ml/ coat. I am now attempting .75 ml/lb first coat 1ml/lb second coat, size, then 1 ml/lb third coat. Pass all tests. Hopefully ill get to load testing in a few days.

Yeah it's a mystery. Thicker coats would need longer evaporation time or it'll flake off.
Further, if it's really saturated, you'll get cratered bubbly coating.

[Sgtonory]

Update. I must have burned out my toaster oven as it failed to reach 200 degree ferinhight. New oven solved issues. Coated 50lbs of boolits today. Now time to shoot some.

[Gremlin460]

Congratulations to all on this thread.... The thread has definitely shifted into the success area.
Newcomers are getting some fantastic help , and only a minor few are dogged by problems..

Well done one and all.

[dikman]

Hi-Tek referred to it as "strange stuff", and I reckon it is. I'm finding that it's actually far more forgiving to use than I expected (for the most part). The fact that once mixed it has a very long shelf life (and can be resurrected fairly easily) is really nice, as many things tend to "go off" once mixed and is often wasted.

As it was sunny yesterday, I decided to do a few more - 250 .44-40 and 200 .357. I've found that 20-30 mins in the sun, which makes them almost too hot to touch, works fine for drying. Come Winter, of course, I'll have to dry them in the oven (not much sun where I live in Winter!). I do about 2 1/2 lbs per load, not a lot but I only use the middle shelf in a non-convection oven. Some in Bronze, some in what I called British Racing Green, squirt method of coating, done by guesstimate. Two coats each at 200C, .357 sized after first coat and .44-40 sized after each coat. Result, no failures (still) :smile:. I reckon I'm getting pretty good at this, mainly because it's so easy - but I really should learn to wear gloves as my fingers usually end up coloured!

The Bronze look good after 2 coats, the Green would probably look better with another coat, but that would only be for aesthetics 'cos the guns don't care what they look like and the boolits work well with just two coats.

[HI-TEK]

Yeah it's a mystery. Thicker coats would need longer evaporation time or it'll flake off.
Further, if it's really saturated, you'll get cratered bubbly coating.

Yea Shotgundrums, totally correct, but it is not really a mystery at all.

All you need to remember is thick coatings=Not good, thin coatings=Good.
(here I go again telling folk to use less lol lol.)
The bubbling or slow drying phenomena, is directly associated with folk trying to coat with "thick" or too much coating mixtures .
The coatings, especially when applied too thick, will form a skin, and will take a long time to dry. It also absorbs moisture from drying solvent, by "chilling" due to evaporation of solvent, and this moisture is trapped below skin, that is formed, with thick coats drying.
The skin is very resistant to allowing total drying, and even if coating feels dry, the minute this coated alloy goes into the oven, the trapped moisture/solvent residue under the skin, becomes super heated vapour, and this lifts off coating from alloy, coating bakes quickly, and no or poor adhesion to alloy, and plenty of fine blisters form during bake.
After first coat is baked, smash tests usually will be tell tale if things are not OK, and, finish is rough looking and not smooth.

[Avenger442]

Popper
Had same experience with the 1035 Gold liquid as far as the color change. It was about 4 months old. But when I used it it worked fine. Passed wipe and smash and shot just fine with no leading. Since I'm not a stickler for colors (except the Orange and Blue Joe is developing) it didn't really matter that it changed color.

I can agree with someone who said it earlier, the coating is fairly forgiving if you thin coat and get it dry before baking.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=popper;3549626]Tried rejuvenating some gold 1035 powder mix yesterday, > 6 mo. old.

Popper,
try diluting the old stuff even more with acetone.
It may work much better. The flaking is telling me that your brew was still too thick after dilution.
It may look dry but it is not.
When you dilute it, dont be worried about it being too thin, and simply make sure that all goodies are well mixed/stirred in when coating.
It seems a waste to throw it out if you can recover it by simple dilution and coat.
Please advise

[kryogen]

is the zombie green as strong as other powders? I feel like trying green bullets with my new rifled barrel.

[HI-TEK]

is the zombie green as strong as other powders? I feel like trying green bullets with my new rifled barrel.

All the "metallics" should be OK. Zombie should be OK. Many seem to prefer the Bronze 500 cooked well with three very thin coats. You can also use Gold 1035, and Red Copper.

[Ausglock]

Yes. The powder does discolour if left in the light. I have sample bottles under my bench that are darker on one side than the other.
Mainly the golds and the Zombie greens. These have been there for over 12 months.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=popper;3550797]2nd coat dried overnite and placed in cold oven, cooked 12 min after up to temp. Still come out brown. Saw a tiny speck after smash test. 3rd coat will dry overnite.

Popper,
Just wanted to clarify things.
After coating the first time, it is most important that this first "stain" coat has been dried well and baked well, and is stuck on alloy, and no flaking or peeling or crumbs when doing smash test or sizing this first coat.
If these results are not achieved, it is of no use at all to coat a second and third time,
Additional coats will not fix the problems of the first coat, if it has not already stuck well to alloy.
Adding more coats to a badly stuck first coat, may actually enhance flaking and crumbs with smash test and sizing.
Once the first coating has been baked, and is not stuck adequately to alloy,
it cant be fixed, and is a re-melt job.

Just a quick word with colour change with time, yes, the material does darken when exposing to light on extended period.
I also had powder, in a 5 gallon plastic Bucket, sealed lid, and after about 6 months, the powder was like soft Honeycomb, no colour change, but was not a free flowing powder.
Tracing back manufacture date and conditions, we discovered that product was made when we had 100% humidity over a week, and the material simply absorbed some moisture.
This proved to be a benefit, as the material was less dusty when scooping it out for re-packing.
Product worked just fine.

[Rich22]

All the "metallics" should be OK. Zombie should be OK. Many seem to prefer the Bronze 500 cooked well with three very thin coats. You can also use Gold 1035, and Red Copper.
What say you about rifle and liquid black? Ok for various 30 cals with 3 coats or not? Have not tried the metallic yet

[Kjeksen87]

Third coating really flaked bad, seems extremely brittle when smashed. Doing 2 more batches, really thin coating - up to 4 coats now. Trying to build up 0.001" or so coating. I'll smash test one, then apply a thicker final coat, smash again. My thinking is a thicker coating is needed for the long rifle barrel. Earlier testing (+ PC recovered) shows it does 'wear' off going down the tube so IMHO extra thickness is needed.
Many plastics degrade from UV exposure but HiTek Joe says this stuff doesn't? OK.

My measurments after a coat with coating applied as described in the instructions ( 1:5 and 1ml pr. 400grams) was .0006" - .0007". Should be no problem at all to build .001" with Hi-Tek. This measurment was done with professional machine measuring micrometer. No digital caliper measurment.

[HI-TEK]

What say you about rifle and liquid black? Ok for various 30 cals with 3 coats or not? Have not tried the metallic yet

Rich22,
All I can say is to try a few with two coats of Black, size them to requirements, and see what happens.
I really cannot see any benefits with using 3 coats, but I could be wrong.
The coating should survive OK, but it must be well bonded to alloy and should pass all tests first. During sizing, there should be no coating removal. If there is, then it wont work, as preparation was not right with coating and baking.

[Rich22]

Even after 3 coats I am not getting a totally opaque, uniform coloration. I am thinking this has to do with the thinness of the coats I am putting on since it seems anything over about 3/4 of a ml per pound per coat seems to fail even after drying for 24 hours. I just did several pounds of 9mm with 3/4 ml per lb for the first 2 coats, then sized then 1 ml per lb for the third coat and this is the result. It has a very tiny amount of flaking during smash test. Coats were 24 hours apart.161782

[Ausglock]

Even after 3 coats I am not getting a totally opaque, uniform coloration. I am thinking this has to do with the thinness of the coats I am putting on since it seems anything over about 3/4 of a ml per pound per coat seems to fail even after drying for 24 hours. I just did several pounds of 9mm with 3/4 ml per lb for the first 2 coats, then sized then 1 ml per lb for the third coat and this is the result. It has a very tiny amount of flaking during smash test. Coats were 24 hours apart.161782

But how do they shoot. Remember... it is about the shooting, nothing else.

[Kjeksen87]

Even after 3 coats I am not getting a totally opaque, uniform coloration. I am thinking this has to do with the thinness of the coats I am putting on since it seems anything over about 3/4 of a ml per pound per coat seems to fail even after drying for 24 hours. I just did several pounds of 9mm with 3/4 ml per lb for the first 2 coats, then sized then 1 ml per lb for the third coat and this is the result. It has a very tiny amount of flaking during smash test. Coats were 24 hours apart.161782

Uhm. How are you tumbling? Are you tumbling "aggressive" enough before the acetone flashes out? Im guessing you are using Acetone ( ? )

[dsa]

Has the coating been sufficiently agitated/shaken/mixed prior to application?

[Rich22]

But how do they shoot. Remember... it is about the shooting, nothing else.

With any luck, tell ya in 48 hrs

Uhm. How are you tumbling? Are you tumbling "aggressive" enough before the acetone flashes out? Im guessing you are using Acetone ( ? )

Tumbling for approximately 20-30 seconds right after application in a semi circular container for probably 30 revolutions and then dumping onto the hardware cloth. using acetone with a 5-1-7 mixture.

Has the coating been sufficiently agitated/shaken/mixed prior to application?

I typically shake the container before dispensing via syringe.

I am guessing the coating mottled appearance is due to the very thin coatings I have to apply in order to get the bullets to pass the smash test, it seems almost anything near what you guys are using in amount causes a failure for me.

[HI-TEK]

I am guessing the coating mottled appearance is due to the very thin coatings I have to apply in order to get the bullets to pass the smash test, it seems almost anything near what you guys are using in amount causes a failure for me.

RICH22

Which coloured coating are you using? I am wondering if you initially mixed your coating concentrate well before decanting?
There seems to be no colour at all, even with 3 coats.
Shake coating, should be just as long, as it requires coating of the quantity of projectiles. About 10 seconds is usually adequate.
Drying rate conditions may govern length of time used to shake coat.
Coating usage rate for mixture is about 6mls to 250 projectiles.

[Kjeksen87]

With any luck, tell ya in 48 hrs

Uhm. How are you tumbling? Are you tumbling "aggressive" enough before the acetone flashes out? Im guessing you are using Acetone ( ? )

Tumbling for approximately 20-30 seconds right after application in a semi circular container for probably 30 revolutions and then dumping onto the hardware cloth. using acetone with a 5-1-7 mixture.

Has the coating been sufficiently agitated/shaken/mixed prior to application?

I typically shake the container before dispensing via syringe.

I am guessing the coating mottled appearance is due to the very thin coatings I have to apply in order to get the bullets to pass the smash test, it seems almost anything near what you guys are using in amount causes a failure for me.

20-30 sec sounds like a looong time. My acetone is usually flashed off just under 10 sec. For the coating to cover the bullets good enough in that amount of time, one has to tumble quite aggressively to get good coverage (atleast my limited experience.) I also shake the syringe before applying. The powder sets in the syringe if its not moving.

Shots through a Arsenal Striken One speed model 9mm. Good result. Even with a tad smaller bullet vs rifling diameter than what is optimal. BHN 15-16

[Rich22]

RICH22

Which coloured coating are you using? I am wondering if you initially mixed your coating concentrate well before decanting?
There seems to be no colour at all, even with 3 coats.
Shake coating, should be just as long, as it requires coating of the quantity of projectiles. About 10 seconds is usually adequate.
Drying rate conditions may govern length of time used to shake coat.
Coating usage rate for mixture is about 6mls to 250 projectiles.

Sir

using liquid Black.
There is color there, it is just not a perfect coating, when I was doing heavier coats, which I was having a large failure rate, I was getting almost perfect coverage after 3 coats. The coating (color) container AKA the big 5 liter jug I got from Donnie gets shaken for about 3 minutes before I begin to measure out the quantity needed. It contains several bullets for mixing. The catalyst gets shaken for the same amount of time and has a stainless nut in it for mixing. Before coating the bullets I shake the container that has the mixture in it for a good 30 seconds usually. Found it important to have a very well fitting lid after an accident that had me cleaning up 30 square feet of garage floor.

250 projectiles of which kind? I assume 250 9mm's would require less coating than 250 of a very large caliber. 250 of my 9mm for instance is almost exactly 5 pounds. That is 1.2 ml/lb. I tried many times at 1.25 ml/lb and was getting in excess of 50% failures of the smash test even with drying for multiple days. The only way I have been able to get reliable coating success is with using coats in the range of .75 ml/lb or about 3.75 ml per 250 bullets. I tried last week coat 1 , .75 ml/lb coat 2 , 1 ml / lb, Size, coat 3, 1.25 ml/lb and I was still getting failures. I am not sure if the liquid simply needs very light coats and more of them or what but I just have no luck with heavy coats at all. I am not sure if the extreme humidity and constant moisture content in the air is causing issues as well.

[Rich22]

20-30 sec sounds like a looong time. My acetone is usually flashed off just under 10 sec. For the coating to cover the bullets good enough in that amount of time, one has to tumble quite aggressively to get good coverage (atleast my limited experience.) I also shake the syringe before applying. The powder sets in the syringe if its not moving.

Shots through a Arsenal Striken One speed model 9mm. Good result. Even with a tad smaller bullet vs rifling diameter than what is optimal. BHN 15-16

I do try to tumble as quickly and aggressively as possible. I will try it out with a shorter time. I have just been doing it to when I hear a difference in tonality of the bullets which I believe is about in the 20 seconds range. I do know that when I am dumping them out that they are still "wet" as in if touched with a gloved hand some of the coating will come off onto the glove.

[Kjeksen87]

I do try to tumble as quickly and aggressively as possible. I will try it out with a shorter time. I have just been doing it to when I hear a difference in tonality of the bullets which I believe is about in the 20 seconds range. I do know that when I am dumping them out that they are still "wet" as in if touched with a gloved hand some of the coating will come off onto the glove.

Humidity might be a problem, but that is not something I have battled with. Cold weather is. The ozzies should know alot on that subject I would guess.

My bullets are tumbled to it feels a tad different and a slight sound change drops sticky down on the drying mesh. Not wet, but sticky. I stop immidiatly to tumble when the sound is changing. If tumbled to long the finish will be rough. This in my part of the world wich have almost no humidity takes less than 10 sec. 7-8 seconds more likely. That is with 1:6 mix (powder)

Are you tumbling with a lid or without? Have read about some guys tumbling with a lid, and caused alot of failures.

[Rich22]

Humidity might be a problem, but that is not something I have battled with. Cold weather is. The ozzies should know alot on that subject I would guess.

My bullets are tumbled to it feels a tad different and a slight sound change drops sticky down on the drying mesh. Not wet, but sticky. I stop immidiatly to tumble when the sound is changing. If tumbled to long the finish will be rough. This in my part of the world wich have almost no humidity takes less than 10 sec. 7-8 seconds more likely. That is with 1:6 mix (powder)

Are you tumbling with a lid or without? Have read about some guys tumbling with a lid, and caused alot of failures.

Sticky may be a better term for it then wet, it comes off but not a great deal. Not using a lid

[Rich22]

I use plastic square pretzel jugs to tumble. I found adding acetone to the uncleaned jug for first application, then adding more gold (shaken well) for other coats gave me good smash test results. Never have had a wipe test failure on any - don't bother anymore. 2 really light coats of gold followed by 2 heavier coats. Still not quite 0.001" thick but I'll load & try next week. This is a repeat of testing early last year that didn't work well, thick coat passed smash but not barrel test. I'd really like this to work so I don't have to ESPC 1500 boolits I cast this week.

In my case it is juice jugs, I usually acetone wash the jug after my last coat or I just get rid of it, I have probably over 100 sitting around. Have not tried 4 coats yet but may have to with how light I have to do it. If humidity is an issue here now, I am really not looking forward to july

[slide]

You could try MEK. It won't evaporate as fast as acetone.

[leadman]

Rich22, I use a gallon paint can with a lid. The lid id important so the acetone does not flash off too fast. One thing that will cause spotty coverage is handling the boolits with bare hands too much. If I install the gas checks before coating I usually use nitrile gloves.
If the lid doesn't help your coverage try washing your boolits with some acetone first and see if the coverage is better.

popper, try even coats of the gold to see if the problem goes away. I found that unlike the Red Copper liquid, the gold does not like thick coats.

[Ausglock]

OK..
250 x 125gn 9mm bullets equals about 2KG of alloy.
150 x 230gn 45 Bullets equals about 2KG of alloy.

So 6mls to the above weight of alloy works.

I decant from the 5 litre bottle to a 1 litre bottle after shaking the bejesus out of it to mix everything.
It is easier to shake a 1litre when mixing coating.
The 5 litre bottle will need shaking for like 10 minutes to get it all mixed. I built a bottle holder that mounts on the output shaft of a worm drive gearbox. strap the bottle to the holder and turn the sucker on and walk away for 10 minutes. come back and nicley mixed.


If your acetone is flashing off too fast, mix 20% Metho (white spirit) with the acetone, this will slow down the evaporation.

When you coat, swirl with a rotary motion. round bucket, 1 hand under it. the other holding the rim and swirl... just like "wax on...Wax off" do you get what I mean????

[slide]

I use a 144 fluid ounce(4.25L for Ausglock) plastic ice cream bucket. It has 2 on the bottom and is deep enough you won't lose any bullets when swirling. I use mek and am able to swirl a little longer than when I was using acetone. Each color has it's own bucket. I eat a lot of ice cream!

[slide]

If some of you guys want to see how it is done, Gremlin640 has a really good video on youtube.

[wlkjr]

If some of you guys want to see how it is done, Gremlin640 has a really good video on youtube.
I think that's Gremlin460. Does he sell those kits?

[Gremlin460]

I think that's Gremlin460. Does he sell those kits?

Kits? as in mixing kits??

No but there is a very quick and dirty video on how easy they are to make.. will find it and toss the link in this thread..

Found it..

http://s881.photobucket.com/user/Gremlin460/media/VIDEO0020_zps0bf060e4.mp4.html?sort=3&o=59

[Ausglock]

Ha... the only kits Grem makes are carby kits to 2 barrel Stromies off a 186S.

[dikman]

"186S"? Now there's a blast from the past, as they say.

As for mixing, I just use the little plastic yoghurt buckets that a neighbour gives me (one for each colour). Don't bother with a lid.

[slide]

Hey Grem, is that lovely lady wearing the gun your wife?

[Ausglock]

"186S"? Now there's a blast from the past, as they say.


Yep. I had a HR sedan with worked 186S running to an Opel 4 speed. Disc brake front-end. premier bucket seats. Yellaterra head with Genie extractors and a 3/4 solid cam. 8" Torana centre wheels with Bridgestone "steel belted 60" tyres. A few virginities were lost at the drive-in in the old HR....Thong in the door to keep the interior light off... Gotta love the 1970's....

[Gremlin460]

Hey Grem, is that lovely lady wearing the gun your wife?

Yes indeed it is, Rose with her much loved S&W 1911 out of the Pro Shop..

[slide]

I am a big fan of the 1911 myself!

[wlkjr]

Kits? as in mixing kits??

No but there is a very quick and dirty video on how easy they are to make.. will find it and toss the link in this thread..

Found it..

http://s881.photobucket.com/user/Gremlin460/media/VIDEO0020_zps0bf060e4.mp4.html?sort=3&o=59
Kits as in the metal brackets and misc. hardware that you attach the Lee sizer to.

[Gremlin460]

Ah , gotcha! the AS/2 autofeed sizer thingamajigger...

Yes I still make them on a per order basis and the 250 capacity mag feeder addition... all the info is on this site in this thread list below.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?238711-Home-made-auto-sizer


Kits as in the metal brackets and misc. hardware that you attach the Lee sizer to.

[Gremlin460]

Ha... the only kits Grem makes are carby kits to 2 barrel Stromies off a 186S.

I actually have 2 of them!! WW Strombergs...

[landers]

Had a great and not so great day at the range with a new batch of hi-tek black coated bullets. The guns exterior were super clean and greatly reduced smoke compared to my buddies regular lubed bullets. I was super pleased until I got home and inspected the barrels. The 38 and 9mm barrels were spotless, then came the 40 and 45acp, not so good. The 40 and 45 both had sever leading at the muzzle end of the barrel, the first inch from the chamber was clean with no leading. I coated and cooked all calibers within two days using the same batch of hi-tek, my alloy is 20-1 for the hollow point expansion. What confuses me the most is where the leading occurred in the barrel, at the muzzle end. All calibers passed both the wipe and smash test, were weighed into 2000g batches with 6ml of coating and baked to ensure the oven wasn't overloaded. Any input or ideas would be greatly appreciated.

[Kjeksen87]

I have seen signs of leading at the muzzle end (not severe) if the bullets were a tad to small for the bore. Have you shot lead bullets through those 2 guns before?
I have also seen tiny tiny TINY streaks of lead at the muzzle end if the BHN is not correct for the application. I tested 10BHN 9mm medium load with this result.

My impression is that a 45ACP is a easy caliber to Hi-Tek coat due to its low pressures? (question to some of the gurus, since I have not tried this myself yet)

20-1 alloy sounds way to soft to shoot high pressure round like .40S&W.

I for my part shot good loads yesterday through my G19. Theoretical pressure of 34600psi (just below SAAMI spec max pressure) in QL. 4,1 - 4,15grs of Vihtavouri 320 COL 1.100" Lee RN2 bullets. Barrel clean as a whistle.

[Ausglock]

40 cal is like 9mm. Bullet fit is king. BHN is Queen.
As for 45ACP. still bullet fit.
How is the throat of your barrels??
What guns?

Fired 150 rounds of 45ACP with range reclaim alloy BHN 10. barrel is spotless.
Bullet is Accurate Molds 230gn RN grooveless 45-230MZ

[landers]

40 cal is like 9mm. Bullet fit is king. BHN is Queen.
As for 45ACP. still bullet fit.
How is the throat of your barrels??
What guns?

Fired 150 rounds of 45ACP with range reclaim alloy BHN 10. barrel is spotless.
Bullet is Accurate Molds 230gn RN grooveless 45-230MZ


The throats look good, I have had leading in the past with hard cast but it was at the throat, not the muzzle. I am using the 20-1 for proper hollow point expansion. The two guns are a colt commander in 45 and a new S&W M&P in 40. I sized the 45s to .452 and the 40s to .401 after coating them.

[Kjeksen87]

The throats look good, I have had leading in the past with hard cast but it was at the throat, not the muzzle. I am using the 20-1 for proper hollow point expansion. The two guns are a colt commander in 45 and a new S&W M&P in 40. I sized the 45s to .452 and the 40s to .401 after coating them.

Maybe a stupid question, but often is the answer no.

Have you slugged the barrel so you know what dim. to size to for good function for lead bullets?

[PAT303]

Well I had two batches fail in the past week,both passed the smash but failed the wipe,the coating coming straight off,I'm thinking my oven's not getting up to temp anymore. Pat

[Ausglock]

Well I had two batches fail in the past week,both passed the smash but failed the wipe,the coating coming straight off,I'm thinking my oven's not getting up to temp anymore. Pat

Yep that will do it. This is what happened to me a few weeks ago. replaced the thermostat with a $6 Ebay unit and back working 100%.

[HI-TEK]

Well I had two batches fail in the past week,both passed the smash but failed the wipe,the coating coming straight off,I'm thinking my oven's not getting up to temp anymore. Pat

Pat,
I have heard this scenario many times.
Unfortunately, elements do fail, or thermostats stop working well.
I have suggested to many in the past, that they should have some sort of visual dial type thermometer, as a reference, when oven is working OK.
As you go past oven, if this thermometer is showing weird readings, it is time to investigate, and before you get too far with stuff that fails.
If you have wipe off, simply fix heating/baking oven, and give a few another cook at your normal time in oven..
If you try and re-coat the ones that fail with wipe tests, the solvent based coating will simply strip off previous coat.
If the re-baking works, and re-baked coating passes wipe test, and also passes smash test, only then, and only then, re-coat, dry again and bake.

[Ausglock]

I now have a Spare Rex C100 PID that only has a K sensor attached to it. I run the probe into the oven and use this to check the temp of the oven when working. Really easy to setup and use. verifies temp perfectly.

[PAT303]

Just ordered one,should be here in a week. Pat

[DerekP Houston]

Just had a batch of zombie green fail on me this weekend. Came out dark almost black but acetone dissolved the coating right back off. Looks like I need to turn the temp up?

[slide]

From what I have experienced when the coating goes dark like you are describing it is from too much heat. You are running a pid on your oven right? Seems like I remember you ordering one. What does it show?

[DerekP Houston]

PID thermocouple is stuck in lead at the moment will have to order another for the oven. I'd had it set at 400f and working fine for the last few months but i rearranged to make room for the PID. Since I was reusing the bowl for swirling the boolits in I couldn't tell if the darker color was from some leftover black pigment or the heat. So if the heat is too high, then bake for longer? I'll have to mess around with it again it looks like.

[slide]

I use a separate container for tumbling each color. If you mixed two by mistake then you may have figured out why it was dark. If it wiped off that easy then indeed the temp may need to be raised.It seems like I remember Hi-Tek saying it was not a good idea to mix colors,I may be wrong. That extra thermocouple will save you a lot of trouble. I never had any luck going by the dial or those little oven thermometers from wal-mart. All they are is a flat spring. Some guy on here bought a $20.00 multimeter and used that to keep an eye on his temp. I followed his lead and it works great. Would like to get a pid as soon as I save up a little more money.

[DerekP Houston]

I use a separate container for tumbling each color. If you mixed two by mistake then you may have figured out why it was dark. If it wiped off that easy then indeed the temp may need to be raised.It seems like I remember Hi-Tek saying it was not a good idea to mix colors,I may be wrong. That extra thermocouple will save you a lot of trouble. I never had any luck going by the dial or those little oven thermometers from wal-mart. All they are is a flat spring. Some guy on here bought a $20.00 multimeter and used that to keep an eye on his temp. I followed his lead and it works great. Would like to get a pid as soon as I save up a little more money.

Thanks, I'll cast another lb or 2 to test with this afternoon and try the zombie green in a new container.

[Ausglock]

Mixing colours is no problem. But your colour will be anything. Black with any other colour (except gold) will be horse poo colour.
If it is wiping back to bare lead, then, yes, your oven is too cool. Mine was only getting to about 150 Deg C when the thermostat ccrapped itself.

[Michael J. Spangler]

Hey guys.
Has anyone used hi-Tek in a lon barreled 45/70?
I should have a nice 1874 pedersoli sharps coming in a couple of days. I was wondering if hi-Tek is up to task.
I bet it would be. I'm going to keep the loads moderate around 1500 fps with a 405.
Just wondering if the 34" barrel would give any fits with the coatings.

I also hear that pedersoli uses either a gain twist or a tapered rifling to maintain accuracy with a lead boolit. Not sure if that will cause issues either.
Guess there's one way to find out.

[landers]

Maybe a stupid question, but often is the answer no.

Have you slugged the barrel so you know what dim. to size to for good function for lead bullets?


Surprisingly I have, well except the new 40, I just did it tonight.
The .45 slugs at .4512 and I size the bullets to .4525, should be big enough. The new 40 may be an issue, it slugged at .401 and I am sizing to .4015. I am using 231 powder in the 45 and power pistol in the 40, I am wondering if a faster powder like tight group would help.

[Kjeksen87]

Surprisingly I have, well except the new 40, I just did it tonight.
The .45 slugs at .4512 and I size the bullets to .4525, should be big enough. The new 40 may be an issue, it slugged at .401 and I am sizing to .4015. I am using 231 powder in the 45 and power pistol in the 40, I am wondering if a faster powder like tight group would help.

The measurments should be from a micrometer and not a dig. caliper. The caliper has measuring tolerances that could make or break the result. Micrometer that is proper calibrated has not. I myself are using fast powder. I have tried to shoot .0005 bigger bullets with good results. Upping the pressure might help the bullet to obturate better. I would give that a try.

In my mind I would have increased the BHN a tad on the .40.
I have shot some 9mm 10BHN with ever so slight lead "residue" at the muzzle end. No "residue" when upping the BHN to 15.
I say residue cause it was not so much that I would like to use the word leading!

[landers]

The measurments should be from a micrometer and not a dig. caliper. The caliper has measuring tolerances that could make or break the result. Micrometer that is proper calibrated has not. I myself are using fast powder. I have tried to shoot .0005 bigger bullets with good results. Upping the pressure might help the bullet to obturate better. I would give that a try.

In my mind I would have increased the BHN a tad on the .40.
I have shot some 9mm 10BHN with ever so slight lead "residue" at the muzzle end. No "residue" when upping the BHN to 15.
I say residue cause it was not so much that I would like to use the word leading!


the measurements were taken using a micrometer not a caliper. The S&W 40 was a little hard to measure as it has lands and groove absolutely on opposite sides but I was able to get enough contact on the edges of the lands on the bullet. I am hesitant to up the BHN in my alloy, these are hollow point I cast and would like them to perform properly, it seems anytime I add any amount of alloy with antimony they become to brittle and fragment. I will pick up a can of tight group this week and try to see if the faster powder helps and probably a .402 size die for the 40. The one I really would like to get work is the 45 acp so back to the range.

thanks for the input it is appreciated

[ioon44]

Mixing colours is no problem. But your colour will be anything. Black with any other colour (except gold) will be horse poo colour.
If it is wiping back to bare lead, then, yes, your oven is too cool. Mine was only getting to about 150 Deg C when the thermostat ccrapped itself.

I add all the small amounts of coating to my liquid Black so I could start with a new mix each time. The colors were Candy Apple Red, Red Copper Bronze 500 and the coating came out a horse poo color, but the bad thing was it smelled like horse poo when it was baking.
I shot these in 9 mm and .45 with no leading and good accuracy.
Now I just add new mix to what is left over of the same color, I have not had a problem doing this.

[Kjeksen87]

I understand. It might work for you with low BHN. It might not. It worked fairly well for me with low BHN in moderat load. But the higher BHN worked better for me as there were no lead residue in the barrel using higher BHN.

[Avenger442]

Just got home from going to the range. The 45 shot great with 10 BHN lead hollow points coated with Gunmetal three coats. Did not closely inspect the barrel but would say no significant leading since the accuracy stayed the same from first shot till last. And, I have shot these loads before. One of the best days of shooting I have had in a while. Shot with no rest. Not much of that one inch dot left in the middle at 15 yards. Almost all of the shots inside the three inch. Which is really good for me. Pistols are really not my guns. Shot a Ruger 357 Black Hawk that belonged to a friend as well. It was a good day.

If I can get the 44 magnum working this well,,,,,Next time 25 yards.

[Rich22]

HiTek gold - 4 coats real thin - 300BO 145gr PB @ 100, ~2k fps. Cooked 12 min. @ 390F. Shot a few 120gr UMC to reset the scope, different target, then these. No leading, almost decent accuracy, ~ACWW + 0.5% Cu. POA on one group is off scanner. Better results than last year with H.T.d alloy. Then I went & blasted a bunch of clays for fun. Another round of testing then coat a bunch.
162440

Which mold do you use for that? Still looking for one that feeds well

[Intel6]

These are a 155 gr. Elco bullet from a NOE mould and are meant to be heavy bullets for shooting out of 9mm's.

I coated them with 3 light coats of Bronze 500 and sized them to .358" I am liking the Bronze 500, especially in nickel cases.

I got the mould mainly for my S&W 929 8 shot 9mm revolver but wanted to try them in autos also. I have shot .358" sized bullets both in the 929 and various 9mm autos without any issues so I just stick with that.

In the pic you can see them loaded in a moon clip for the revolver, a few in nickel cases for the autos and one of the bullets so you can see what it looks like.

Neal in AZ

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/9mm_ELCO.jpg

[slide]

Looks like a good job!

[Rich22]

Encountered a problem today. Thin coat (.75 ml/lb) number 4 on some 9mm's are failing smash test at 400F 12 minutes. Dried for 30 Hours. Coated twice then sized then coated once earlier this week, all tests passed. Attempted 3 test batches, all fail. At the same time I cooked a test batch of another set that is on coat number 3 after being sized and they are passing with no issues. If I have to remove the coating that is dried but not cooked on all of these I am going to flip, Approx 1800 bullets. Anyone have any ideas?

[Ausglock]

Hmmm.... How much are you sizing them down? I had this with a Lee 44 RNFP that was coated twice and sized .430 for my 44 Mag. A mate wanted some for his 44/40 so I ran them through a .427 sizer and threw another coat on and baked them.
They failed the smash test.

Food for thought???

[Gremlin460]

Maybe there is a maximum downsize point, whereby the coating bond to the lead is broken.
If your .430 pass the smash test but sizing down a further .003 to .427 breaks the bond?

I take it you already sized to .430 , so just for argument sake, if you sized from .432 out of the mold , in total you are sizing .005 to the .427

I do not know , just postulating, there has to be a point where the downsizing has a limit, I know PC has from experience.

What we need is someone with a range of sizing dies that can keep sizing down in incremental steps until smash test failure point is reached. I we learn that , dried/baked coating has a limit of .008 before we break the adhesion bond, all well and good. It would be nice to know that limit, if it exists would it not?

[leadman]

I would skip the sizing before baking unless there is a specific reason you need to do so. Might increase the bake time by a couple of minutes to see if this could be the problem. Sometimes the oven is slow to recover after the door is opened. I have crushed rock in the bottom of my ovens to help maintain heat.
I haven't sized between coats but I have removed wax type lube off of sized boolits and coated and they failed. This could be because the boolit is burnished by the die and the coating won't stick.

[Ausglock]

Yeah. An interesting situation.
Just came in from cleaning the Para 45.
A few weeks ago, I put a few 100 Hardline 230gn RNBB coated with 2 coates of Kryptonite Green downrange. Afterwards inspected the barrel. It was clean and shiny. Last weekend, I fired some old loads that used the Lee TL 230gn RN coated with dark green. These were loaded about 3 years ago. I also fired 50 or so of the Lyman 452374 230gn RN lubed with White Label Wax lube. Tonight, I had to break out the Lewis Lead remover to clean the lead out of the barrel. long streaks that were most of the way down the bore. I have fired the Lyman bullets before on their own and they worked well. So, I am blaming the TL Lees. Tomorrow I am fireing more Hardline 230RN and Accurate Molds 230gnRN 45-230MZ both coated with the experimental Powder version of Kryptonite Green. I love this colour.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Gremlin460;3567447]

You raise some interesting points.

From what I have read, and I may be wrong, but my guess is, that coating many times in fact will provide the failures experienced.
I will try to explain, why I am thinking along these lines.
I have in the past, referred the coatings to an example, of comparing it to a sheet of glass. If your glass sheet is say 1/4 thick, and you try to bend it, it explodes.
However, if you make the glass sheet a few microns thick, then it is very flexible and will deform easily without breaking just like Glass wool.
I am thinking, that by building up several layers of the coating, due to its tough nature, then it may be possible, that the fails mode is reached simply, by the fact of the physical property of the coating becoming much more brittle with the extra thickness.
The smash tests, are certainly well in excess to what is done during sizing, and, no coating comes off, and, these are with two coats baked.
This "theory" seems to be supported by the mere fact, that after passing sizing tests initially, and re-coating again, the smash tests then fail.
Attached is an example of smash tests on coated alloy. The destructive forces used, far exceeds162750 sizing shape changes.
May be, there is room for experimentation to determine at what point the coating will fail/crack, based on thickness applied.

[Gremlin460]

HMMMM OK, I get you line of thought with thicker coats...

When we do a smash test, my thinking is the overall surface becomes larger, but when we size, the overall surface area becomes, smaller does it not?
I never size bare lead before coating, it has proven itself a way of making the coating fail, cleaned casts that were loobed before, also fail.

I only coat twice... they colour maybe better with a third, but at 900+fps I cant see that anyway...

We know that Trev is sorta kinda half decent at coating, well he has had a few work. If he can take a pill that's working and size it down .003 and it stops working.. I would be interested to know why.
Of course we have to bear in mind it could be the barrel or rifling at fault in the gun.. The 44/40 was his mates gun, maybe Trev could check it out when he has time...

[ioon44]

Encountered a problem today. Thin coat (.75 ml/lb) number 4 on some 9mm's are failing smash test at 400F 12 minutes. Dried for 30 Hours. Coated twice then sized then coated once earlier this week, all tests passed. Attempted 3 test batches, all fail. At the same time I cooked a test batch of another set that is on coat number 3 after being sized and they are passing with no issues. If I have to remove the coating that is dried but not cooked on all of these I am going to flip, Approx 1800 bullets. Anyone have any ideas?


What is the temperature of your bullets during the 30 hours of drying?

In the colder weather I have found that if I dry my bullets at 100 deg F to 130 deg F for 1 hour and bake 12 minutes at 400 deg F they pass the test fine.

You might try this before you try to remove the coating, I doubt it can be removed.

[ioon44]

[QUOTE=Gremlin460;3567447]

You raise some interesting points.

From what I have read, and I may be wrong, but my guess is, that coating many times in fact will provide the failures experienced.
I will try to explain, why I am thinking along these lines.
I have in the past, referred the coatings to an example, of comparing it to a sheet of glass. If your glass sheet is say 1/4 thick, and you try to bend it, it explodes.
However, if you make the glass sheet a few microns thick, then it is very flexible and will deform easily without breaking just like Glass wool.
I am thinking, that by building up several layers of the coating, due to its tough nature, then it may be possible, that the fails mode is reached simply, by the fact of the physical property of the coating becoming much more brittle with the extra thickness.
The smash tests, are certainly well in excess to what is done during sizing, and, no coating comes off, and, these are with two coats baked.
This "theory" seems to be supported by the mere fact, that after passing sizing tests initially, and re-coating again, the smash tests then fail.
Attached is an example of smash tests on coated alloy. The destructive forces used, far exceeds162750 sizing shape changes.
May be, there is room for experimentation to determine at what point the coating will fail/crack, based on thickness applied.

I have had the 3rd coat fail the smash test after coats 1 & 2 passed the smash test, this was before sizing and the bullets shot fine without any leading.

Comparing it to a sheet of glass sounds like a good possibility.

[Rich22]

Hmmm.... How much are you sizing them down? I had this with a Lee 44 RNFP that was coated twice and sized .430 for my 44 Mag. A mate wanted some for his 44/40 so I ran them through a .427 sizer and threw another coat on and baked them.
They failed the smash test.

Food for thought???

They come out raw at .358, after two coatings I am getting .3585 with my micrometer. Sizing down to .356 via NOE push through.

Thank you

[Rich22]

I would skip the sizing before baking unless there is a specific reason you need to do so. Might increase the bake time by a couple of minutes to see if this could be the problem. Sometimes the oven is slow to recover after the door is opened. I have crushed rock in the bottom of my ovens to help maintain heat.
I haven't sized between coats but I have removed wax type lube off of sized boolits and coated and they failed. This could be because the boolit is burnished by the die and the coating won't stick.

I may have misspoken, I sized after coat 2, then proceeded to coat and cook further. I have lead blocks in the bottom of mine, for a 80 dollar oven it holds 400 plus or minus 5 degrees quite well.

[Rich22]

[QUOTE=Gremlin460;3567447]

You raise some interesting points.

From what I have read, and I may be wrong, but my guess is, that coating many times in fact will provide the failures experienced.
I will try to explain, why I am thinking along these lines.
I have in the past, referred the coatings to an example, of comparing it to a sheet of glass. If your glass sheet is say 1/4 thick, and you try to bend it, it explodes.
However, if you make the glass sheet a few microns thick, then it is very flexible and will deform easily without breaking just like Glass wool.
I am thinking, that by building up several layers of the coating, due to its tough nature, then it may be possible, that the fails mode is reached simply, by the fact of the physical property of the coating becoming much more brittle with the extra thickness.
The smash tests, are certainly well in excess to what is done during sizing, and, no coating comes off, and, these are with two coats baked.
This "theory" seems to be supported by the mere fact, that after passing sizing tests initially, and re-coating again, the smash tests then fail.
Attached is an example of smash tests on coated alloy. The destructive forces used, far exceeds162750 sizing shape changes.
May be, there is room for experimentation to determine at what point the coating will fail/crack, based on thickness applied.

My question would then be, if I am having failures doing coats thicker than .75 ml/lb / coat, how do I obtain the coating thickness for both appearance and performance if I am limited to a max of 3 coats? No matter what I have done using more coating then this had led from partial failures to entire failures. So if I cannot go thicker without it not drying properly and I cannot go more numerous, what is the answer? Or is it just that liquid black is generally inferior and I would be better served by going to a powdered metallic?

[Rich22]

What is the temperature of your bullets during the 30 hours of drying?

In the colder weather I have found that if I dry my bullets at 100 deg F to 130 deg F for 1 hour and bake 12 minutes at 400 deg F they pass the test fine.

You might try this before you try to remove the coating, I doubt it can be removed.

Approx 65-75 degrees F. I do the exact same baking time/temp as you do. Drying them in a turned down oven may be doable but not really in the amount that I like to do at 1 time. I am talking about removing coating that is dry but not yet cooked, no way I am removing anything baked on

[dikman]

Rich, just curious, why would you want four coats? I run two coats and while I know the overall colour would look better with three they wouldn't perform any better with an extra coat. If you're doing everything the same as you usually do, then it would appear that you may have reached the practical limit for what you're doing?

On another note, went to the range yesterday (to try out my new holster) and fired off a few .38's. Cleaning the barrel this morning and started getting streaks of lead!!! Then I remembered I was using up a few left-over, pre-coating, plain lead wax loobed boolits. That was it, the remaining few are in the reloading shed where I'm going to pull the boolits and replace with pretty coloured ones!

No more wax loobed for my cartridge guns!!

[Ausglock]

I use 4 coats sometimes.
Mostly when testing experimental coatings.
2 coats of the experimental.
Take photos and test.
then apply 2 coats of Black to cover the old coating.
Size and shoot as per normal.
4 coats is no problem.

[HI-TEK]

I use 4 coats sometimes.
Mostly when testing experimental coatings.
2 coats of the experimental.
Take photos and test.
then apply 2 coats of Black to cover the old coating.
Size and shoot as per normal.
4 coats is no problem.

Ausglock
I agree with you to a great extent. I am also keeping in mind, that coatings over all thicknesses, may be a governing factor in them becoming more prone to shatter the thicker it is built up.
We all know, that we admire a beautiful finish and colour. The reality is, that I have had many that reported, that they coat with one coat, dry well and bake, and get great results.
I cant seem to get my mind around previous report on this blog, where two coats passed OK, and 4 coats failed with same coating used.
This seems contradictory with your findings where you use 4 coats over all, with success.

[Rich22]

Rich - add acetone to your tumbler, teaspoon/# and tumble again, pour excess off - should reduce the coating thickness. Cook again then check. I think I got ~0.001" thick for the 4 coats I did, about what your measurement says. Accuracy wasn't great (20 mph wind) but NO leading @ ~2k fps. Next round is 2100 fps (normal load for ESPC). Coating another 150 or so today for testing - to see if I got it right. I'm letting dry for an hour or so, put in conv. oven @200F for 15min. then go to 385F for 12 min. second coat passed smash test - on third coat now. I've had no problems with liquid green 2 thin coats 1 thicker for 9 & 40, same process. Anyway, if this gold 1035 works @ 2100 then on to 2400 in the 308W carbine
edit: 4 coats gold - pass smash test.

Yeah, I will acetone off the coat that I put on but as far as adding another coat, I don't know how that would turn out any better. I'm just going to replace .75 ml/lb with .75 ml/lb. I am at a loss as to how I get 3 coats that every single bullet passes but then this coat does not yet there are several people who are doing 4 coats without an issue. I was thinking maybe wait to size until all the coats are done but then I am sizing down even more.

[Rich22]

Rich, just curious, why would you want four coats? I run two coats and while I know the overall colour would look better with three they wouldn't perform any better with an extra coat. If you're doing everything the same as you usually do, then it would appear that you may have reached the practical limit for what you're doing?

On another note, went to the range yesterday (to try out my new holster) and fired off a few .38's. Cleaning the barrel this morning and started getting streaks of lead!!! Then I remembered I was using up a few left-over, pre-coating, plain lead wax loobed boolits. That was it, the remaining few are in the reloading shed where I'm going to pull the boolits and replace with pretty coloured ones!

No more wax loobed for my cartridge guns!!

Two reasons really are looks and I am having to apply so little coating, approx 1/2 of what Ausglock is doing, in order to get it to dry properly and pass, that in my 4 coats is about the coverage that the rest of you guys are getting in 2.

[Ausglock]

The 3 coat fails was with 2 sizing operations.

2 coats of Bronze 500.
1st from "as cast Dia of .433" down to .430"
2nd from .430" down to .427 and a single coat of Bronze 500 applied and baked.
Fail smash test. Wipe fine.
This was about 6 months ago.

[Rich22]

so going down 6 thou is not going to work. I can understand that. we need to find a method so we can size before coating and have it still work normally for situations like that. So go .433 to .430 first, then two coats, then to .427, then 1 final coat

[Ausglock]

Rich.
If I was actually doing .433 down to .427.
I do it the old fashion way. 2 coats bake then Size with Sizing lube.
I do this and everything is fine.
My above example was for re-sized bullets after the first production. I normally do not do that.

[dikman]

Reading all this suggests to me that extreme re-sizing is the likely problem? "Normal" re-sizing (couple of thou'?) obviously works, even when some resize first and then coat. The fact that we are putting on a rigid, hard coat, even if it is only microns thick, means that there has to be a point where it will come loose from what is after all a softer sub-strata that it's baked on to if it's worked too much.

Re-sizing is a fairly brutal process when you think about it, I would have thought ideally you'd want to have minimal re-sizing once its coated.

[ioon44]

Approx 65-75 degrees F. I do the exact same baking time/temp as you do. Drying them in a turned down oven may be doable but not really in the amount that I like to do at 1 time. I am talking about removing coating that is dry but not yet cooked, no way I am removing anything baked on

I am talking about dry unbaked coating also, as hard as it is to remove from measures and any thing else it gets on. I have never tried to remove it from bullets might work OK.

I am using a lot more coating on my first and second coats than you are, I think the higher drying temp's have a lot to do with this as the coating is a heat barrier. I am still testing and learning lots of good help here

I have used the liquid Black and am using Candy Apple Red powder now, my first coat is mixed 125 ml/20 grams and second coat 100 ml/20 grams applied 7 ml of coating to 5 lbs of bullets.

[DerekP Houston]

PID installed, will give the "zombie green" another try today. My 3rd attempt still came out too dark, though the coating passed both tests and shot without leading in my bersa. I'm giving it a full 24hr to dry in between coating, approx 70-80f in the afternoons here. Bronze 500 has still been the best for me for color.

[Ausglock]

If I leave the Lee push through sizer dies to sit for a few weeks, they get "dirty" on the inside that will scratch the coating. I run a piece of 2400 wet n Dry paper on a rod in the battery drill to polish them before use. Doesn't take much to get them working 100%.

[Rich22]

I am talking about dry unbaked coating also, as hard as it is to remove from measures and any thing else it gets on. I have never tried to remove it from bullets might work OK.

I am using a lot more coating on my first and second coats than you are, I think the higher drying temp's have a lot to do with this as the coating is a heat barrier. I am still testing and learning lots of good help here

I have used the liquid Black and am using Candy Apple Red powder now, my first coat is mixed 125 ml/20 grams and second coat 100 ml/20 grams applied 7 ml of coating to 5 lbs of bullets.

I am also looking at some of the powder, if I did not have SOOOO much liquid black I would grab some, still may to play with. I got the coating off or at least the vast majority, I will bake tomorrow the tiny bit left on and hopefully all will be good. Are you heating the bullets first then coating and then heat drying or coating room temp bullets and then heat drying?

I also attempted the fourth coat again on a small amount that had 3 coats on already and were sized after coat 2, failed badly. I am considering trying 4 coats and then size. Has anyone definitively proven which is better if doing 3 coats, coat 3 times and then size or coat twice , size, and then a third coat. I will play with heat drying

[Rich22]

Mic'd 7 that I coated yesterday. Largest was 312, smallest 310 sized to 308 with Lee. Inspected with magnifier and saw a few had very small scrape at the base. Had sized down some uncoated previously so sizer is the problem, dirty I guess. Still trying to order the NOE set, can't get past the password.
Sped up the drying process on these (3&4 coat) by setting oven ~200F for 15 min, then up to 385F for 12 min.

You were successful on 4 coats, did you size after 4 or somewhere in between?

[ioon44]

I am also looking at some of the powder, if I did not have SOOOO much liquid black I would grab some, still may to play with. I got the coating off or at least the vast majority, I will bake tomorrow the tiny bit left on and hopefully all will be good. Are you heating the bullets first then coating and then heat drying or coating room temp bullets and then heat drying?

I also attempted the fourth coat again on a small amount that had 3 coats on already and were sized after coat 2, failed badly. I am considering trying 4 coats and then size. Has anyone definitively proven which is better if doing 3 coats, coat 3 times and then size or coat twice , size, and then a third coat. I will play with heat drying

I have a lot of Black liquid that I will keep using along with my other colors.

I preheat my bullets to around 80 deg F before each coat, then let the Acetone flash off for 1/2 hour then put them in a heated cabinet to get up to 100 deg
F to 130 deg F for 1 hour. Once the weather gets warmer here with full sun I can lay trays of bullets on my dark Red deck and the temp will reach 130 deg F.


Using the Black liquid I found that a mix of 5-1-10 with 3 coats and sizing after the last coat worked best for me. If you try powder I recommend Candy Apple Red or Bronze 500 and I only use 6-2-92 alloy.

I have shot a lot of coated bullets that did not pass the smash test with out any leading but different barrels may not work you just have to try it.

[Ausglock]

With sizing on the Magma Lube master, I only use Lathesmiths short sizer dies. Best sizer dies in the world.

[Rich22]

I have a lot of Black liquid that I will keep using along with my other colors.

I preheat my bullets to around 80 deg F before each coat, then let the Acetone flash off for 1/2 hour then put them in a heated cabinet to get up to 100 deg
F to 130 deg F for 1 hour. Once the weather gets warmer here with full sun I can lay trays of bullets on my dark Red deck and the temp will reach 130 deg F.


Using the Black liquid I found that a mix of 5-1-10 with 3 coats and sizing after the last coat worked best for me. If you try powder I recommend Candy Apple Red or Bronze 500 and I only use 6-2-92 alloy.

I have shot a lot of coated bullets that did not pass the smash test with out any leading but different barrels may not work you just have to try it.

I know what you mean, another 6 weeks and all of Orlando will be a half way decent heated cabinet, except when the 4 pm rain storms come. 5-1-10, now that is thin, I do 5-1-7 currently. I may give that a shot. I will have to check and make sure my largest dropping mold can do 3 coats and not have an issue with sizing after 3.

[Rich22]

Looks like I am getting failure from anything to do with a fourth coat. I took the vast majority off the bullets that I had coated and dried but not baked and I am getting failure, I put a fourth coat on another batch that had past 3 previous coats without problem and that failed. Looks like I am going to just have to do 3 coats and then size and hope that is a sufficiently thick coating.

[Avenger442]

Rich22
I can't see where three coats wouldn't work. That's what I use in my .308, .223 and 44 magnum.

[dikman]

Rich, why do you feel that you need four coats (and sufficiently thick, at that)?

Many only use two coats, or three if they want a deeper colouring.

[Ausglock]

Commercial caster/ coaters here in OZ use a 5-1-5 mix for the liquid coating. 2 coats.

3 or 4 coats is not needed.

[PAT303]

I'll add nothing to the conversation other than say I'm impressed by the excellent dialog back and forth,it's a pleasure to read such an in depth thread conducted with civil manners. Pat

[Avenger442]

Avenger, which color and how fast in the 308? I put on 4 VERY thin coats, probably no thicker than 1 thou. total.
I have a dremel pad I use to clean the Lee, just did a few after smash test to make sure I didn't have sizing problems like I did last year when I tried it - thicker coating.

Three coats 1035 Gold liquid, the first color I coated with. Don't have a crono but might be able to give you an idea. Lee C309-160R bullet weighing in at a tad over 160 grains average, BHN around 17, 43 grains of H4895, out of a Remington 700 can't remember barrel length maybe 22 or 23 inch barrel. Based on loading tables that should be in the neighborhood of 2600 fps. 41 grains was actually a little more accurate. 1 1/2 inch 100 yards.

Also tried a Lee C309-113F weight about 117 grains same coating same BHN 46 grains H4895. About 3000 fps. That load was not accurate all the way down to 43 grains of powder. Best group was 3 inches at 100 yards. Never went back to it. I'm thinking the bullet is just too light for the Remington.

I did shoot the 160 grain in 12 BHN with no gas check three coats 1035 Gold same amount of powder and gun. Those were terrible for accuracy. And I had some leading last 1/2' of the barrel that cleaned right out. The other two above no leading what so ever.

I also use a Dremel tool to shine up my Lee dies.

[Gremlin460]

I find pure actetone removes coating that has not been baked.

I once decided to coat some HP 128gn in PC instead of HT. I put them in a jar of Acetone overnight and the coating came straight off. Also use A/tone for clean up of splash and fingers when not wearing gloves.



I am talking about dry unbaked coating also, as hard as it is to remove from measures and any thing else it gets on. I have never tried to remove it from bullets might work OK.

I am using a lot more coating on my first and second coats than you are, I think the higher drying temp's have a lot to do with this as the coating is a heat barrier. I am still testing and learning lots of good help here

I have used the liquid Black and am using Candy Apple Red powder now, my first coat is mixed 125 ml/20 grams and second coat 100 ml/20 grams applied 7 ml of coating to 5 lbs of bullets.

[Avenger442]

Popper
With the right alloy I believe you can duplicate your performance with the HT.

I cast about 20 lbs of beveled based bullets today. The first time I have used beveled based molds. I remember someone saying something about beveled based and the coating. Don't remember who or what was said. Is there anything I should know before I start coating these?

Also remembered why I don't like casting small bullets. One of these was a Lee 356-102 RN two cavity. It takes a long time to fill up one of my peanut jars with a 102 grain bullet. My wife has a new 38 special that I told her I would work up some light loads for her to use at the range.

[Rich22]

Rich22
I can't see where three coats wouldn't work. That's what I use in my .308, .223 and 44 magnum.

I was not clear, 3 coats works, it's getting 4 coats in a bullet that was sized after coat 2. I will try 4 coats in an unsized and see what happens


Rich, why do you feel that you need four coats (and sufficiently thick, at that)?

Many only use two coats, or three if they want a deeper colouring.

I believe it needed because I am having to coat so thin each time, on the order of 1/2 normal, in order to ensure a good drying bond before cooking that even with 3 coats the finish is not at all uniform. My guess it is a function of the liquid black, and the conditions with high humidity.

[Gremlin460]

250 rounds of 16+month old coated projectiles... mirror clean barrel... this stuff seems to last well.

[Rich22]

Going to order some powder soon to play with. Are any "tougher" than the others? I do not really want black or green. I like the gunmetal. This would primarily be for supersonic .224 and .308 rifle with maybe a little subsonic blackout. I do want to try powder mix of black and gold though. May look good on very large 30cals . Go with the whole Blackout theme

[Ausglock]

Rich22.
Go with the Bronze 500 or Gold 1035.
Black Gold is called Texas Tea. it is a mix of Black and Gold 1035.

[Kjeksen87]

Gentlemen, does anybody here has some pictures of the red copper colour? How does that one compare to bronze 500 in hardness?

[Ausglock]

Much the same. They are both based on the same base ingredients. Only the coloured component is different.
Both work great.

[Avenger442]

Going to order some powder soon to play with. Are any "tougher" than the others? I do not really want black or green. I like the gunmetal. This would primarily be for supersonic .224 and .308 rifle with maybe a little subsonic blackout. I do want to try powder mix of black and gold though. May look good on very large 30cals . Go with the whole Blackout theme

I have shot 1035 Gold in 223 and 308. Used Gunmetal with some 308.

Have some of the Bronze 500 but have just not cast any rifle bullets lately.

[dikman]

I've just been looking through some of the PC posts, and the ongoing problems of standing up each boolit in the oven (!) - beats me why they persist with such a system (maybe they're all just masochists at heart [smilie=b:).

[Gremlin460]

I've just been looking through some of the PC posts, and the ongoing problems of standing up each boolit in the oven (!) - beats me why they persist with such a system (maybe they're all just masochists at heart [smilie=b:).

I have on occasion PC a few hundred rather than HT coat, basically only for the reason of the blue or irridecent green colour which Joe has yet to get to play nice for him.
It is slightly more time consuming, however as you only have to coat/bake once, overall the time difference is not as great as you would think. Let me qualify that... for small batches.
Nothing beats HT for coating 2~3 thousand casts time wise. Except maybe alox loobe

[HI-TEK]

I
It is slightly more time consuming, however as you only have to coat/bake once, overall the time difference is not as great as you would think. Let me qualify that... for small batches.
Nothing beats HT for coating 2~3 thousand casts time wise. Except maybe alox loobe

Grem,
You hit the nail square on the head.
Products were designed for commercial caster uses, where they coat many hundreds of thousands, if not millions.
As these commercial casters require consistency and reproducible results, with bulk manufacture, the products certainly supply required attributes, and is results are very economical with use.
The hobby side of end use for coating originated in the US, where many hobbyists cast a hell of a lot more than guys in Aus.
All the associated results, good and bad, and as blogged, was mainly due to uniqueness of the coatings, and people had to essentially learn finer points when making small batches.

[Avenger442]

I am glad that someone at Cast Boolits let us know about Hi Tek. It has been the go to product for me for a lube. It came along just as I was getting into casting my own bullets. I was looking for a lube. The greases, waxes, plating..... all didn't seem to be what I wanted. Had read some on PCing. And, even though it didn't really do what I wanted, was about to use a 50/50 mix alox and paste wax. Then I found this forum. This blog was only a little over 2000 post instead of 7000+ post it is now. I read every post. That was in early 2014.

Joe
I hope it has been as profitable an enterprise selling to the US shooter for J&M Products as it has been a good product for this customer. It has meant may trips to the range and woods with very little effort after I got home to clean my barrels. The liquid coating 1035 Gold has been outstanding when I applied it correctly. The powders are a little easier to mix and just as good as far as I have been able to tell. The mold release 500 Plus works. And I have found other uses for a wet applied dry lube. Looking forward to the next great product from the "mad scientist" at J&M:grin:.

[Kjeksen87]

Does anybody have a picture of the red copper color?

[Shotgundrums]

163486
Brown/Red copper

[dikman]

Gremlin, it may even out, time-wise, if you take into account having to apply two coats, but having to pick them out individually with tweezers and carefully stand them up would drive me nuts!! That's using the tumble method, otherwise I'd be up for spraying equipment of some sort, with more messing around and cleaning up of equipment.

Nope, this way is far more practical, even for my relatively low usage.

[Avenger442]

Dikman
Off subject but...
I coat tall rifle bullets sometimes. How do you stand them on their end without tipping them over moving around when PCing? Do you still have to stand them on their end when you spray instead of tumble?

[dikman]

Sorry Avenger, slight misunderstanding as I don't actually do it, I was merely commenting on some of the difficulties these PC guys face. The problem you've raised is asked many times in the main part of the Coating forum. The most common solution seems to be standing them in nuts or washers :roll:.

I'm just glad that I don't have to worry about it (applying two coats is a small price to pay, imo).

[Shotgundrums]

Sorry Avenger, slight misunderstanding as I don't actually do it, I was merely commenting on some of the difficulties these PC guys face. The problem you've raised is asked many times in the main part of the Coating forum. The most common solution seems to be standing them in nuts or washers :roll:.

I'm just glad that I don't have to worry about it (applying two coats is a small price to pay, imo).

163534 Not powder coat. But the red on the bottom is epoxy resin coated, shoved at 1200fps. The other is HT bronze 500 fired at same vel. I tend to use the epoxy methode in guns that have dimensional variables that cause no-matter-what leading. When streamlining coating of thousands of Bullets, it's a few hours longer total than HT, but far easier and shorter than PC, and no standing bullets on edge. That would drive me f*ing nuts.

[leadman]

The white smoke is probably the indicator you exceeded the strength of the alloy. I wrote about this many pages ago. I used Richard Lee's chart to give me an idea of what alloy I should use to get certain velocities. This is why I used heat treated linotype when I obtained 3,619 fps with a 22 cal. boolit in my Contender 223 Rem. This velocity was probably max as I was just starting to get some debris in the bore that would affect accuracy after 4 to 6 rounds.
I did use the Gold 1035 in my high velocity loads and also had to use copper gas checks. Aluminum gas checks would not take the same velocity and had to be installed before heat treating so the aluminum would not extrude up the sides of the boolits when sized.

[Avenger442]

I have had the white smoke also on 308 plain based bullets with one grain short of max loads of H4895 down to 3 or 4 grains short of max. I remembered the post about smoke and exceeding the pressure for the lead used. This was 16 BHN lead. Never went back to see if I could drop down to something around 6 to 10 grains short of max. No smoke with copper gas checks.

[Avenger442]

Popper
Correction to my previous post.

After reading your post went back and looked at the containers I took the bullets out of and reviewed my load log. The ones I shot without gas check were not 16 BHN they were 12 BHN. Sorry. The ones with gas checks were 16 BHN. Mind getting old.

At the time I was looking for a hunting load and was trying to get a soft bullet for the 308. I had cast some COWW with 2% tin coated thee times with no gas check. One of the guys posting was shooting a M-14 and was wondering if he could shoot the Hi-Tek without gas checks. I probably should have tested the 16 BHN without gas checks. I remember that I had minor leading with the 12 about the last inch of the barrel. Only time leading with Hi-Tek. I just used too soft an alloy for that pressure.

When you PC your bullets how do you hold the rifle bullets on their tail?

[Shotgundrums]

I made a lazy susan affair with golf tees,place base down and ESPC. Apply GC if used first. Works well but still time consuming.

Hey Popper,
it sounds as if you're after decent accuracy with rifles and cast bullets. While it's not a race horse production-wise, you could try pouring single-cavity bullets while monitoring heat margins... With this, you're able to achieve far better consistency casts with X alloy. Might be worth a try.

[convert69]

Can anyone point me in the right direction to find bullet molds without the lube grove looking 45, 40 and 9mm

[slide]

NOE molds made some a while back. Don't know what calibers or if he still has any in stock. He is a vendor on this site.

[Ausglock]

I run Accurate 35-168ZK and 45-230MK.
Bloody good bullets. all HITEK Coated.

[1845greyhounds]

Ausglock, what do you shoot the 35-168ZK out of? If it's a 9mm, will you share the load?

[Ausglock]

The 168 is for reloading 357Sig for IPSC Std Div Major power factor loads.

[Shotgundrums]

The 168 is for reloading 357Sig for IPSC Std Div Major power factor loads.

Man that's a long bullet. I have their 35-135Z for 9mm. COAL 1.10 3.5- 3.6gr 231 for subsonic/suppressor use.

[Ausglock]

You should see the 170RNBB we make for the 357Sig.

[leadman]

When I get time to cast again and load I want to do more testing. I am curious if using JB Bore Paste on the bore before firing will make any difference in accuracy. I have the 'new" Lee 22 cal mold but haven't even loaded any yet.
I want to find the Handloader magazine in my stash that the writer wrote up a bore treatment that helped reduce the copper fouling. Thought it might help with the high velocity loads.
Popper, Which A/C oil are you using? I have a couple different ones on hand.
Just had a thought flash into my mind. Wonder if filling the bore with Amsoil 2 cycle oil and letting it stand might allow the oil to penetrate the metal??

[Ausglock]

Haven't had time to play with the 30/30.

[Rich22]

So I started playing with 3 powders today, my first time using the powder instead of the liquid Black. I am using the Bronze 500, Black 1035, and Gunmetal. I coated each of them with 20g/125ml acetone, 1 ml/lb. Cooked at 400F for 12 minutes. All passed the smash test, the bronze and the gunmetal passed the wipe test but the Black 1035 failed wipe. The bronze looks good for a first coat, the Black is a bit blotchy but nothing a couple more coats cant cure but the gunmetal looks much darker than I expected for the first coat. I thought that all of the powders would probably cook the same as far as time and temp. I will try the Black at 14 min tomorrow and see how it goes. Anyone had any similar or different experiences when playing with different powder types?

Gunmetal on left ,Bronze in middle and Black 1035 on the right in the picture with all 3, other is gunmetal on left and Bronze on right. Excuse the horrible pictures

Thanks Guys

[dikman]

I've found it's extremely difficult to try and get a photo to represent the true colour (particularly the darker colours, in my case gunmetal). I had a lot of trouble initially with gunmetal, but once I finally sorted it out (thanks to Ausglock) I was a bit surprised at how dark it was - for some reason I was thinking of a Parkerized-type colour when I thought of gunmetal - but it works fine so being a bit darker doesn't bother me.

[Ausglock]

I'd check your Temp with a Digi thermometer. They look over baked to me.
As to failure of wipe. How bad did it fail?
Just a hint of colour or wiped right off?

for first bake, the coating looks extremely thin to me.
Why did you mix 20 gms to 125 mls??
I alway use 20gms to 100mls.

2 Kg is about 4 1/2 Lbs.
6mls of coating to 2Kg of alloy.
1ml to 1 lb is far too little. especially if mixed 20 gms to 125mls.

Use more.....

[Rich22]

I'd check your Temp with a Digi thermometer. They look over baked to me.
As to failure of wipe. How bad did it fail?
Just a hint of colour or wiped right off?

for first bake, the coating looks extremely thin to me.
Why did you mix 20 gms to 125 mls??
I alway use 20gms to 100mls.

2 Kg is about 4 1/2 Lbs.
6mls of coating to 2Kg of alloy.
1ml to 1 lb is far too little. especially if mixed 20 gms to 125mls.

Use more.....

Checked with multiple oven thermometers , thermocouple is coming soon.

Very minor color on cloth with wipe test failure of the black, almost not there.

did 20/125 for coat 1 to make sure to get a very thin coat to allow it to dry properly, I seem to have always had issues with not drying properly with the liquid.

I was going to go for coat 2 and coat 3, 1.2 ml/lb of 20/100

New info from this morning. Cooked all 3 and pulled at various times

All 3 at 10 min 30 seconds , Failed wipe

All 3 at 11 minutes Failed wipe

At 12 minutes Bronze and gunmetal pass wipe, Black 1035 fails wipe.
At 12 minutes , Smash test Bronze passes , Gunmetal I did 3 bullets,2 passed and 1 flaked, all of them "inprinted" color onto the cloth that I smashed them in

At 13 minutes, Black fails wipe test barely , Bronze and gunmetal pass wipe
Bronze and gunmetal also passed 2 smash tests each at this setting, gunmetal looks as dark as black does.

If I am having some issues with smash and drying already, can I go thicker with good consistent results? I have no issue doing 3 coats if it is needed. Gunmetal I need to work in 9mm, black and bronze are going to go primarily 30 cal rifle.

I will do more testing later, if anyone has advice , I am all ears.

[Shotgundrums]

I'd check your Temp with a Digi thermometer. They look over baked to me.
As to failure of wipe. How bad did it fail?
Just a hint of colour or wiped right off?

for first bake, the coating looks extremely thin to me.
Why did you mix 20 gms to 125 mls??
I alway use 20gms to 100mls.

2 Kg is about 4 1/2 Lbs.
6mls of coating to 2Kg of alloy.
1ml to 1 lb is far too little. especially if mixed 20 gms to 125mls.

Use more.....

"thin" coating as mentioned was my tail-chasing problem for a little while initially. While thin coats are stressed for good mechanical bond, too thin just isn't enough barrier. Using a wide 3 liter or one gallon bucket gives good, even distribution.

Im waiting on Joe to come up with the Ultimate HiTek coating that has the best of HiTek coating and the rigidity of powder coat... For those who have a gun with dimensional anomalies. Coating which can survive minor gas cutting.

I know, I know..." But the coatings have been used successfully for 20 years with so many satisfied shooters...whah..." Granted. I'm one of them. But the ultimate of coatings has to be underway. We can't stop here. Everything is subject to change and evolution. Just like the newly successful blue color coating... There's a resin emulsion out there waiting to be unveiled.

[Chief762]

I got into Hi-Tek coating over the winter. I shoot submachine guns a lot and got tired of scraping lead residue out of the Thompson compensator. After a minor investment in coating, a $40 toaster oven w/fan from Wal-Mart and a few home made wire racks, I was amazingly pleased to have the process work even better than advertised. I find that 2 pretty thin coats works best for me. I made up about 8 oz. of solution and was able to coat more than 1000 boolits, both .45 and 9mm. Very economical and easy gun cleanup. This stuff is a winner.

[slide]

Another satisfied customer!!!!!!!!!! I totally agree.

[kokomokid]

Is a convection oven requried? If so who sells a small cheap one?

[dikman]

Where I am there's no such thing as a "small cheap one"! Even used convection ovens tend to be $$, so I bought a reasonable size non-convection oven ($30). It works, BUT I can only use the middle rack as the other two positions are too close to the heating elements and cause problems. I can still do around 100 or so boolits at a time, which is fine for me. If I come across a suitable fan I'll fit it, in the meantime I'm happy enough as at least it got me started.

[slide]

A convection oven works the best because of the fan that circulates air around the bullets when they are baking. Some guys have made toaster ovens work. I bought my oven at wal-mart for $80.00. Some guys go to a goodwill or such type of store and buy ovens cheap. Craig's list is a good place to look.

[Gremlin460]

find a little desk fan you can destroy, fit the motor on the outside of your toaster oven, drill a hole into the side and fit a small tin blade on the inside on a piece of rod that runs trough the hole to the motor you mounted outside.

Instant convection air flow, it does not have to be pretty, it just has to work.

I used a second hand wall oven for my baking centre, I ripped the grill element out and fitted it into the oven near the floor, I use clay bricks as heat stabilizers. A wall oven is already well insulated, do to the fact its made to go in a wooden wall. It has a door seal, toasters normally don't.
Its bigger than a toaster... means my pot, molds, ladle, burner, scrapers and other casting stuff have their own cupboard when not in use.

Last week we had a council kerb cleanout, the local council twice a year, takes anything away residents don't need.
I saw 5 wall ovens and 2-3 ranges sitting on the side of the road , free to who ever wanted to stop and pick them up.
Yah just need to hunt around...

[Ausglock]

I currently have a Kleenmaid Wall oven torn apart in my shed. This thing has 4 heating elements. 2 in the top, 1 in the bottom and one around the circulating fan.
Ripped out all the touch screen electronics and an fitting a PID etc to control the heating. The door has a switch that stops the fan when the door is opened. I think this will be a good thing to prevent heat getting pumped out the door.
The oven is fully wrapped in Rockwool insulation.
going to have each element on separate switches to see how many elements are needed to maintain 200Deg C. May use all of them for heatup, but only 2 for production baking. this will cut the power usage.
May be able to bake 4 trays (1000 Bullets) at once every 10 minutes...

[dikman]

A conventional oven is, of course, probably the ultimate for home use and can be picked up pretty cheap (heck, I gave one away a while ago!) but then you need somewhere to keep it/use it. In my case I need something that can be moved around and doesn't take up too much space.

Ausglock, switchable elements sounds like a great idea.

Gremlin, HyTek also suggested fitting a fan like you said. I have numerous fans, of all sorts, but none that I consider suitable for this application. I'm keeping my eyes open and I'm sure something will turn up eventually.

[Gremlin460]

That sounds like a brilliant oven Trev.
The reason I doubled my elements in the oven was no because the one 1200W element couldn't do the job.. It was after all put there by factory. Let me explain my thinking on this.
By adding a second 1200w element, I have literally increased the heat that's available on demand. This injonjunction with the heat stabilizing clay bricks mean that when the PID say "hey we are 3 degrees down, need heat" 2400W adds the heat very very quickly.
When the oven was running on the single 1200w element, I had temp swings of 10-12 degrees, when the LED lit up telling me the PID had activated it took a longer period of time to return to target temp.
Now with 2400w on hand, the response time is much much faster as there is more "heat on demand" Also my temp swing came down to 3 deg.
More wattage means more power used yes?? actually no, due to the fact the respond so fast, the ON time is actually shorter for the duals than what is was for a single element heating by itself.
Now my PID pulses both elements once every few seconds to keep near perfect temp.

I think you will find the same thing Trev, your swing temp will be small, and the multi elements will just pulse occasionaly to maintain temp.

[Rich22]

Went to a decent sized batch today. Bronze 500. 3lbs coated 1ml/lb of 20/125 dilution, dried for 36 hours cooked 12 min at 400F. Passed both smash and wipe. The gunmetal and black appear to be more "finicky" than the bronze.

[Chief762]

I got my oven at Wal-Mart for about $40. Made by Oster. After just a few uses, the glass window on the door cracked and I had to replace it (window only) with a piece of sheet metal. PITA but no big deal. Oven still works great. I also use it to dry brass that had been washed.

[Ausglock]

Drying for 36 hours....... What is the ambient temp over there?
I have around 25 to 30 deg C day time temps here with around 65% RH
I can bake within 30 minutes of coating the bullets. All I have is a pedestal fan blowing cool air over the trays of bullets.Even when the RH is up around 85% and temp is 12 to 15 Deg C, the wait time to bake is only 1 hour.
My trays of bullets get laid out on an old single bed steel frame with mesh base, that allows air flow.

[Rich22]

Drying for 36 hours....... What is the ambient temp over there?
I have around 25 to 30 deg C day time temps here with around 65% RH
I can bake within 30 minutes of coating the bullets. All I have is a pedestal fan blowing cool air over the trays of bullets.Even when the RH is up around 85% and temp is 12 to 15 Deg C, the wait time to bake is only 1 hour.
My trays of bullets get laid out on an old single bed steel frame with mesh base, that allows air flow.

36 hours was not by design. I just happened to coat them on tuesday and was very busy yesterday and got to baking them this morning. I have not really played with same day coat/bake yet but I will. Doing my F to C conversion it seems it is about 24-26 C. Starting in about 6 weeks we will see 95% RH and over 30 C temps. My rack that I am drying on is 1/4 hardware cloth and I have a fan I can use on it if need be. Good for brass drying as well esp since I mounted it right over the treadmill I use to spin my tumbler

[slide]

I like those racks,good job! Hang in there,you will get it figured out. I wasn't one of those that got it right off. I have tried powdercoating, it just wasn't for me. If you have a big pile of bullets to coat Hi-Tek is the way to go. I don't pay much attention to humididty (I am in Oklahoma). Just coat them,put them on a rack with a fan on them. At about five minutes give them a shake to spread them out a little and let them dry for 20 to 30 minutes. Same as Ausglock. I think if you increase your amount of coating you will see better results. I weigh 2500 grams of bullets and use almost 1 tablespoon of 20 to 100 coating,preheat bullets and bake for 12 minutes. this is what I have settled on and it works very well for me.

[ioon44]

Drying for 36 hours....... What is the ambient temp over there?
I have around 25 to 30 deg C day time temps here with around 65% RH
I can bake within 30 minutes of coating the bullets. All I have is a pedestal fan blowing cool air over the trays of bullets.Even when the RH is up around 85% and temp is 12 to 15 Deg C, the wait time to bake is only 1 hour.
My trays of bullets get laid out on an old single bed steel frame with mesh base, that allows air flow.


I have found that on a sunny 30 deg C day that my bullet trays (1/4" hard ware cloth) laying my wooden deck can reach 50 deg C or more in 30 min or less and at that point they are ready to bake . 50 deg C is pretty warm to the touch, I use a digital thermometer to check the temp.

[Rich22]

I like those racks,good job! Hang in there,you will get it figured out. I wasn't one of those that got it right off. I have tried powdercoating, it just wasn't for me. If you have a big pile of bullets to coat Hi-Tek is the way to go. I don't pay much attention to humididty (I am in Oklahoma). Just coat them,put them on a rack with a fan on them. At about five minutes give them a shake to spread them out a little and let them dry for 20 to 30 minutes. Same as Ausglock. I think if you increase your amount of coating you will see better results. I weigh 2500 grams of bullets and use almost 1 tablespoon of 20 to 100 coating,preheat bullets and bake for 12 minutes. this is what I have settled on and it works very well for me.

Thanks, they are 48 inches long 24 inches wide. I can get about 1000 bullets on each of them to dry.

It seems I am having, for the first time in forever, failure on the wipe test. So far black failed at anything under 14 minutes and my long skinny 30 cals are actually failing with bronze @ 12 min where my 9mms are passing, both pass smash test at that so I will increase 30 cals to 13 and test that. So far I have done 20/125 1ml/lb on the first coat and 20/100 1ml/lb on subsequent coats. I will probably stay at 20/125 1 ml /lb on the first just to make absolutely sure everything dries well and bonds but I will move up to 1.25 ml/lb for coats 2 and 3 which is only slightly less than ausglock and if that works then I will be happy. So fat

Liquid black 5-1-9 , 12min @400 .75 ml/lb 1st coat 1ml/lb coats 2 and 3
Black 1035 20/125 1st coat 1ml/lb and hopefully 20/100 1.25 ml/lb for 2 and 3 14 min@400 works
Bronze 500 20/125 1st coat 1ml/lb and hopefully 20/100 1.25 ml/lb for 2 and 3, 12 min @400 for 9mm, 13 min for 30 cal
Gunmetal, who knows at this point, I may be mistaking the color and thinking it is too dark when it is correct.

[Ausglock]

Gunmetal is a very dark grey/black.
Just remember.......this coating is designed to reflect heat away from the alloy.
So each coat will (in theory), reflect heat and thus need more time to cure per coat.

2 coats at 200Deg C for 12 minutes for each works for me in my production ovens.
YMMV.

My modified benchtop oven with extra insulation only needs 9 minutes to give the same result.

I'm hoping that the 4 element wall oven I'm butchering will do the same thing in 6 or 7 minutes.
It's all about alloy temp. the temp of the air in the oven is irrelevant if you can't get the heat into the Alloy.

HITEK Joe has been pushing me to do a time/temp comparison with a sensor imbedded in the bum of a bullet and the other sensor in the oven space to compare air to alloy temp differential.

I have 2 REX C100 PID's and 2 K sensors to be used for the test.
The Sensors are 5mm dia and 15mm long, so drilling the bullet bum will be no problem.
Probably use some 230gn 45 bullets to give plenty of alloy around the sensor, rather than a 9mm bullet.
I'll do it at some stage, But I am time poor right now.

I have about 6 new Blue coatings to test for Joe and a powdered dark Green that will replace the liquid dark green.

[Rich22]

Gunmetal is a very dark grey/black.
Just remember.......this coating is designed to reflect heat away from the alloy.
So each coat will (in theory), reflect heat and thus need more time to cure per coat.

2 coats at 200Deg C for 12 minutes for each works for me in my production ovens.
YMMV.

My modified benchtop oven with extra insulation only needs 9 minutes to give the same result.

I'm hoping that the 4 element wall oven I'm butchering will do the same thing in 6 or 7 minutes.
It's all about alloy temp. the temp of the air in the oven is irrelevant if you can't get the heat into the Alloy.

HITEK Joe has been pushing me to do a time/temp comparison with a sensor imbedded in the bum of a bullet and the other sensor in the oven space to compare air to alloy temp differential.

I have 2 REX C100 PID's and 2 K sensors to be used for the test.
The Sensors are 5mm dia and 15mm long, so drilling the bullet bum will be no problem.
Probably use some 230gn 45 bullets to give plenty of alloy around the sensor, rather than a 9mm bullet.
I'll do it at some stage, But I am time poor right now.

I have about 6 new Blue coatings to test for Joe and a powdered dark Green that will replace the liquid dark green.

Understand, So for 9mm 3lbs coat 1 I am doing 12 min and it is working well, coat 2 I did at 12 min and they also passed, I will look at coat 3 and test some to see if maybe they need to go 13.

My surprise is I expected the 9mm to take longer than the 30 cals due to less surface area per mass but it looks like the exact opposite with coat 1 of the 30s needing 13 minutes. I will test 13, 1330 and 14 on coat 2 when I get to cooking them. This is with the bronze. The black 1035 is taking by far the longest, with either 9mm or 30 cal needing 14 min to pass wipe test. I just got in my K thermocouple so I am going to see what I need to do to get that to work

[dikman]

Rich, my Gunmetal boolits are what I would call an "oily black" colour (I gave up worrying about the final colour, as long as they work that's all that matters). I also found that in my little oven I had to bump the temp up to just under 250C to get the Gunmetal to get a Gunmetal colour (using a PID to control the temp). The Bronze and Zombie Green both work at "normal" temp (200C) and at that temp the Gunmetal comes out green, but still passes all three tests - wipe, smash and shooting!

Try increasing the temp a bit, I've found this stuff to be reasonably forgiving.

[Ausglock]

Had a play with the wall oven this arvo.

Managed to fry a 40 amp SSR. Hooked 2 elements to it... Didn't like it and blew the breaker.
I now have the PID running to a 12v/240v 40 Amp SSR that in turn runs to a 240v/240v 20 Amp SSR.
Running 2 elements from this works, but the 20 Amp SSR is getting very warm.
Going to run a seperate SSR for each element.
With only a top element and the fan element running, The oven reached 200 Deg C in just 2.5 minutes!!!!

Here are a couple of pics. The wireing is a mess and will be cleaned up. Need to get a few more SSR's.

This oven shows real promise. The fans pushes a huge amount of air around the oven compartment.
The fan switch on the door that stops the fan when the door opens saves a lot of heat loss.
Closing the door had the temp drop from 200 to 195. Recovery to 200 was 30 seconds.

I like it.....
http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/Mobile%20Uploads/20160327_180205.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160327_180205.jpg.html)

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z222/glock40sw/Mobile%20Uploads/20160327_180222.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/user/glock40sw/media/Mobile%20Uploads/20160327_180222.jpg.html)

[ioon44]

36 hours was not by design. I just happened to coat them on tuesday and was very busy yesterday and got to baking them this morning. I have not really played with same day coat/bake yet but I will. Doing my F to C conversion it seems it is about 24-26 C. Starting in about 6 weeks we will see 95% RH and over 30 C temps. My rack that I am drying on is 1/4 hardware cloth and I have a fan I can use on it if need be. Good for brass drying as well esp since I mounted it right over the treadmill I use to spin my tumbler


Rich, looks to me like you have good start for a drying cabinet, just close the sides and add a door. I use a 110 volt heater with a fan blowing in the bottom of mine. The top needs to have an adjustable opening to regulate the heat and air flow.
With mine the bullets can reach 130 deg F in about 30 min depending on the ambient temp, and are ready to bake. I use this when the weather is too cold or wet for outside drying.

[Avenger442]

Trevor
Looks like you could cook several thousand at one time in that oven.

[Ausglock]

At worst, I expect to do 2 trays of 250 each.
At best, 4 trays of 250 each.

1000 bake per 10 to 12 minutes will make me a happy bullet maker.

[Rich22]

At worst, I expect to do 2 trays of 250 each.
At best, 4 trays of 250 each.

1000 bake per 10 to 12 minutes will make me a happy bullet maker.

Trevor

I can do almost 500 in my small little thing that I barely modified. If you cannot do 3 times that I would be amazed. Your setup is exactly what I want. Really nice.

[leadman]

Ausglock, I have found that the 20 and 25 amp SSRs do not last very long for me. Gone to using the 40amp only. That oven looks like a killer for sure!

[convert69]

Can someone tell me where I can get a 9mm bullet mold with a 125gr RN and no lube groove ? I have searched high and low and can only come up with flat nose.
Thanks please help.

[Balta]

Can someone tell me where I can get a 9mm bullet mold with a 125gr RN and no lube groove ? I have searched high and low and can only come up with flat nose.
Thanks please help.
NOWHERE....Hardline only make that ,but there out off bussinues.

[Ausglock]

Can someone tell me where I can get a 9mm bullet mold with a 125gr RN and no lube groove ? I have searched high and low and can only come up with flat nose.
Thanks please help.

Give Northern Valley Ballistics a call.

[Gremlin460]

If they cant help try MP molds in Europe or CBE here in Australia..
Lee will remove groves for you but they charge a arm and a leg.

[Ausglock]

CBE??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....
Will never get my money....

[Gremlin460]

CBE??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....
Will never get my money....

Only cause they refused to make molds for your casters.... which reminds me is there a AU dealer for Balisticast or is it all over the pond kinda thing?

[Ausglock]

Ballisticast has disappeared like a fart in a hurricane.

[Humbo]

Can someone tell me where I can get a 9mm bullet mold with a 125gr RN and no lube groove ? I have searched high and low and can only come up with flat nose.
Thanks please help.

Check out this mold from NEI.
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/356-123-bb.jpg

[Gremlin460]

Ballisticast has disappeared like a fart in a hurricane.
Wonderfull , Thanks Trev.

So does that mean if I can find one, I can derive my own version from that?

[Ausglock]

Not sure what their story is.
Everything turned to poo awhile back.
Then Hardline arose from the ashes and Ballisti clawed back a little.
Hardline went the way of the dodo and Ballisti went quiet.
NVB picked up a lot of Ballisti customers (us) and do excellent work and give fantastic service.
NVB have some very clever people and actually care and help their customers.
I really like Accurate Molds. Tom has quality gear. It's a shame he can't do a full round nose.

[slide]

This is totally off subject. I got to thinking. Not only do we have a great product in Hi-tek we have got the support of two experts. I am talking about Hi-tek Joe and Ausglock. Could you imagine trying to learn how to use this stuff without their support and advice. Nobody knows more about this product than these two guys. I have never pm to Ausglock,yet! I have pm to Hi-tek Joe quite a few times. Always quick answers and he takes the time to try and explain things. Gentlemen, If I could I would buy you both a beer or two or ten. Thank you both for what you do!

[Ausglock]

Slide. No Expert here, Mate.
Just a product user.

It is the Aussie way... You help a mate out.
I'm just passing on what I have learnt from trial and error to try and save you blokes from making the same errors.
You lot are paying good money for your coating. I don't. (Well.... I do for the one colour I use for my production).
So I'd rather test and see what happens and inform you lot, than have you waste your bought coating.
HITEK sends samples and I test.
Just came down from the shed from testing a new Powdered Black (fail) and a new Powder dark Green (pass).

So... I help where I can.
Now... Bugger off and coat some pills.

[HI-TEK]

This is totally off subject. I got to thinking. Not only do we have a great product in Hi-tek we have got the support of two experts. I am talking about Hi-tek Joe and Ausglock. Could you imagine trying to learn how to use this stuff without their support and advice. Nobody knows more about this product than these two guys. I have never pm to Ausglock,yet! I have pm to Hi-tek Joe quite a few times. Always quick answers and he takes the time to try and explain things. Gentlemen, If I could I would buy you both a beer or two or ten. Thank you both for what you do!

Slide, thanks much for your support.
I am grateful I can help.
I would be happy to share a few beers with you and many others that have put up with me.
With Ausglock, he is a typical Aussie, willing to help others. I really like his attitude, as he states things as they are, not try and smooth talk, so I really get a good feed back with all test samples.
He certainly keeps me on my toes.
He started off with trying the coatings, about 3 years ago.
We had many discussions where we exchanged data, good and bad.
He has been certainly a "Catalyst" with motivating me to develop things further.
He did go through some trial problems when he first started, but has learned very quickly.
As he said, he had and advantage over all of you guys, as he had samples first to try and was relatively local to me, about 6 hours drive from us, on same time zone on the East coast.
We could quickly exchange testing and all results.
Now, he has become an expert in baking oven design. It really allowed test results to be compared very accurately and very reproducible.

I have thought many times about holding seminars in US about the coatings, lubes etc etc.
Unfortunately, now, I dont like the prospect of flying any where.
Over the years, I had flown much too many times with my work, and had been to the US, New York, Washington, South Carolina.
Compared to good old Aus. it it was difficult for me to get used to the hectic lifestyle especially in New York.
I am really glad that you and all others are happy with results being obtained.
Please keep in touch.

[Avenger442]

Joe
You just visited the wrong places for your personality. Sounds like both you and Ausglock would enjoy the Southern US. We are a little more laid back down here. No disrespect intended to the rest but, if you like a more relaxed style you need to visit Donnie or come to "Sweet Home" Alabama. There is a reason they call it that.

[Ausglock]

If ever I get to the USA, I'd love to tour the Glock factory in Georgia if it is still there.

[Avenger442]

Lots of good stuff down south. If you like a beach with snow white sand go to Gulf Shores, Alabama. Also the place to go if you like sea food caught yesterday and on the table today. Go during the off season to miss the crowd and save some money. We have the mountains here, too. But would suggest you go to Pigeon Forge or Gatlinburg for the mountains. Again in the off season to miss the crowd.

I have traveled some in the US and outside and I have never seen any place I would rather be than Alabama. And not just because it's home.

Got some coating to do next week.
165021 Dang, upside down again. Sorry Joe was plugging the 500 and this computer shows the file right side up and it's up side down when I down load it onto the site.

[Ausglock]

My eldest bloke works a Prawn Trawler here on the coast.
Fresh prawns (shrimp to you lot), Lobster, Fish and Morton bay Bugs. He brings me a care package every few weeks.....

[dikman]

Avenger, I thought you deliberately posted the photo "upside down" so that it would come out the right way up for we'uns down under!

[HI-TEK]

Lots of good stuff down south. If you like a beach with snow white sand go to Gulf Shores, Alabama. Also the place to go if you like sea food caught yesterday and on the table today. Go during the off season to miss the crowd and save some money. We have the mountains here, too. But would suggest you go to Pigeon Forge or Gatlinburg for the mountains. Again in the off season to miss the crowd.

I have traveled some in the US and outside and I have never seen any place I would rather be than Alabama. And not just because it's home.

Got some coating to do next week.
165021 Dang, upside down again. Sorry Joe was plugging the 500 and this computer shows the file right side up and it's up side down when I down load it onto the site.

How do you find the 500+ aerosol?
Is it slick enough?

[HI-TEK]

My eldest bloke works a Prawn Trawler here on the coast.
Fresh prawns (shrimp to you lot), Lobster, Fish and Morton bay Bugs. He brings me a care package every few weeks.....

You did not tell me about your Care packs.
We are partial to Lobsters and fresh Prawns, (Shrimp)
I have had no time to go fishing for 6 years, and my boat, 4.5 meter, has been in same spot for 7 years.
I am forced to buy in local fish and chips shop, imported unknown species.
All our good catches seem to be sent over seas.

[kokomokid]

Instructions from Donny say 20 grams powder to 100ml acetone. I found a conversion that says 20 grams equal 308.65 grains, is that correct?

[Avenger442]

Joe
500 Plus works good on molds, a gas check maker and several other things that need a dry lube. May have to contact Donnie for another can.
Will it protect steel molds from rusting?

dikman
I hadn't even thought of that. So I need to post all of my photos up side down from now on. :bigsmyl2:

[slide]

Sounds like you are correct in your conversion kokomokid.

[Ausglock]

I use 500Plus on everything...door hinges, roller door tracks, ride on mower steering gear, gate hinges and latches....everything.
hell.. it even stops the dog from barking.
I spray it on my bad knee to relieve the pain.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=Avenger442;3599641]Joe
500 Plus works good on molds, a gas check maker and several other things that need a dry lube. May have to contact Donnie for another can.
Will it protect steel molds from rusting?

Avenger, the 500+ has no corrosion inhibitors in the product.
Such materials would be destroyed with high temperatures reached by surfaces .
It is simply a way to minimize alloy sticking inside molds, and separate metals and lubricate.

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

Instructions from Donny say 20 grams powder to 100ml acetone. I found a conversion that says 20 grams equal 308.65 grains, is that correct?



Your conversion is correct.

[gunoil]

I use 500Plus on everything...door hinges, roller door tracks, ride on mower steering gear, gate hinges and latches....everything.
hell.. it even stops the dog from barking.
I spray it on my bad knee to relieve the pain.

hehehehehe! your a mess mate!

___________________________
velosRus.com

[Ausglock]

Gunslick... Mate... Long time no see.

What you been up to?

[ioon44]

I have searched the thread on Gun Metal powder baking temp and didn't find discussion, so far my Gun Metal has a lot of Green and Yellow color. My last bake I dropped the oven temp to 185-190 deg C for 14 min, the bullets passed the smash test and shoot fine with zero leading but not dark Grey.

Should I go higher on baking temp?

[Avenger442]

I bake mine at a higher temperature 390-400F 12 minutes. This temp. is measured by two oven thermometers and maintained with a PID. Three coats Gun Metal.
What color are yours coming out of the oven on the last bake? How many coats? Photos if you have them.

Here are two photos of mine after baking final coat.

165493

165494

165495

[2wheelDuke]

I haven't done any Hi-Tek coating in a little bit, but I shot 100 rounds of .45acp on Monday. Accuracy seemed decent, basically no smoke, but I could smell a slight plastic-y smell when I fired them. They were Lee tl 230gr rn, sized 452 with 2 coats of gold liquid. The gun was a USP45.

After 100 rounds, my barrel was pretty fouled up, looked like lead. It took a bunch of scrubbing with chore boy around the brush to make a difference.

I'm suspecting I wasn't getting a proper cure on my earlier batches.

I also have a 300blk upper that fired 50 155gr coated boolits waiting to be cleaned. I had horrible accuracy with them, and it leaded badly.

I think I might need a better toaster oven. I had used an oven thermometer to get to what it said was 400 degrees. I'll have to try a thermocouple probe to get a second look at that. All of these passed the smash and wipe tests.

[Hi-Performance Bullet Coatings]

2wheelduke,
If you have any pics of the bullets in question text them to me at 225 324 4501 it is sometimes easier to help diagnose an issue with a picture.
Donnie

[Ausglock]

I have searched the thread on Gun Metal powder baking temp and didn't find discussion, so far my Gun Metal has a lot of Green and Yellow color. My last bake I dropped the oven temp to 185-190 deg C for 14 min, the bullets passed the smash test and shoot fine with zero leading but not dark Grey.

Should I go higher on baking temp?

G'day.
The Gunmetal colour is different to most of the other powdered coatings. The longer you swirl in the coating bucket, the darker the colour gets. Most of the Experimental Blues I am testing do the same thing.

I'd suggest aggressive swirling when coating and watch the colour change as you swirl.

Remember 6mls per 2KG of bullets.

Temp of 200Deg C is fine (provided that your thermometer is accurate) and 12 minutes will do the trick.