simple Hi-Tek coating

[kweidner]

The coating part is the only thing holding me back. I can make about 2400 bullets per hour on my Mark 8 caster but coating them is killing me. I'm trying to perfect the process on a small scale before I purchase a cement mixer and a commercial convection oven. Eventually I want to coat 3000-5000 (tel:3000-5000) bullets per batch. What processes are commercial casters using to reliably produce large quantities of coated bullets?

I use multiple smaller brevilles and many trays. I will eventually get one larger oven but like the process so far. Donnies ovens IIRC is 40 lbs per batch which is only 1200 or so depending on caliber. I am closer to half that. Gateway has ovens at 100lbs capacity if I remember correctly. Only bad things of huge ovens is one failure is a bunch of capitol. Many smaller ovens and a batch failure your not out so much. Once coated it's not like you are gonna throw them back into the premelt side. You will have to smelt, clean lead, re-ingot and then into the magma. On the otherhand I can't tell you the last time I hd a batch fail. lol...

[andre3k]

I use multiple smaller brevilles and many trays. I will eventually get one larger oven but like the process so far. Donnies ovens IIRC is 40 lbs per batch which is only 1200 or so depending on caliber. I am closer to half that. Gateway has ovens at 100lbs capacity if I remember correctly. Only bad things of huge ovens is one failure is a bunch of capitol. Many smaller ovens and a batch failure your not out so much. Once coated it's not like you are gonna throw them back into the premelt side. You will have to smelt, clean lead, re-ingot and then into the magma. On the otherhand I can't tell you the last time I hd a batch fail. lol...
OK just made a small batch of a few hundred and will start over with smaller batches. I think I was trying too much too soon became overwhelmed . Will report back my results. Thanks.

[Gremlin460]

Buggeroff.
The Lord helps them who help themselves.

And God help those that get caught!

My trays are the actual slide out shelving from the oven itself, with Aluminium Flyscreen mesh tied to then. Slide in/out perfectly and don't move.

[gunoil]

stuco expanded wire sheet is cheap @ Home Depot. 3x6 l think for $8.

[Avenger442]

Gremlin
With all due respect to you and Ausglock; God helps those that can't help themselves is closer to the truth.

Testing lead coating and retesting tomorrow. BHN results to follow.

[kryogen]

Ok I just did another test tonight.

Lee 105 SWC, COWW, heat treated 1 hour at 220C then water dropped. 2 coats of brown copper, sized .357.
Loaded with 4.3 of unique (a bit mild, will load a bit hotter next batch). 1.000 OAL. Plunk fine in glock. properly expanded cases, pulled at 357, minimal crimp, no scraping.

They shot awesomely well (the best the glock ever shot) and made really nice holes in paper. love it.

But there are silver steaks in my barrel again. Uh?

Whats next, try .358? (barrel is 356). And 3 coats, heat treated?

I'll shoot all 100 I have saturday and see if they just streak a bit or if they lead bad. I'll make another 100 and do the same, but size .358 and see I guess.

[Ausglock]

I have run the 105SWC with 2 coats of kryptonite green on range reclaim alloy out of a G34 factory barrel with no issues.
sized .3565.
loaded over 4.5gn W231.
My iron sight Steel challenge load.

[kryogen]

weird. Will shoot 100 saturday and see.

[HI-TEK]

[QUOTE=kryogen;3217915]Ok I just did another test tonight.

Lee 105 SWC, COWW, heat treated 1 hour at 220C then water dropped. 2 coats of brown copper, sized .357.


Just quick questions.
After you did quench hardening, how long did you wait before using?
What if any increase was there in hardness after quenching?
These may be relevant.
It just seems to me, that you may really not had achieved hardness you required, as you may not have allowed enough "hardening" time.

[kryogen]

Maybe 10 days, but according to http://www.lasc.us/heattreat.htm most has been obtained in 2 days

[kryogen]

I have run the 105SWC with 2 coats of kryptonite green on range reclaim alloy out of a G34 factory barrel with no issues.
sized .3565.
loaded over 4.5gn W231.
My iron sight Steel challenge load.

Are you getting any silver streaking in your barrel, or nothing?

Maybe I could try coating once, sizing, then coating 2 more times then not touching it? (sizing did not harm the coating at all anyway, just burnished it smooth to .3570)

[Ausglock]

Are you getting any silver streaking in your barrel, or nothing?

Maybe I could try coating once, sizing, then coating 2 more times then not touching it? (sizing did not harm the coating at all anyway, just burnished it smooth to .3570)
Barrel is shiny clean. mirror shiny.

[robertbank]

Disclosure up front, I've still not yet tried Hi-Tek despite meaning to give it a try.

I keep reading the above statement how much easier Hi-Tek is and I don't get it. Using the right PC I can tumble them in the ASBB's, dump them in a tumbler, or just shake them in a bucket and all I have to do is pour them over hardware cloth and bake them. I do take a quick minute to poke them apart so they don't bake together and that is the most tedious part of it. I only need to bake once and I'm done. It's pretty darn easy. As long as you bake them at the correct temp and then let them cool then I have yet to have the PC fail. I really only want to try Hi-Tek just because I want to try all the various coating options.

You would struggle to do 1400 bullets an hour. Anyone who shoots IPSC, IDPA or Cowboy Action needs a process that is capable of coating a much higher rate than swirling around 50 bullets at a time in a small container. PCing bullets barely meets the volume I need. HI-TEK exceeds the volume I need and is much less expensive for me. I'll continue to PC bullets due to our climate conditions but HI-TEK has some various obvious advantages. Good on Joe in developing this product. With the cost of copper going nowhere but up over time his coating method has real advantages.

Take Care

Bob
ps Powder arrived from Donnie yesterday (10 days from Louisiana by mail). Quits raining here on Monday, Tuesday is set for HI-TEK playing. I intend to go slow and find out what works before engaging top gear.

[robertbank]

Kryogen why do you think you need a harder bullet? I would have thought the coating acts just like plating. Your bore is obviously sealed if you are using .357 bullets so you are not, or should not be experiencing gas cutting. It sounds more like a coating issue than a bullet hardness issue. I don't recall Ausglock or HI-TEK ever mentioning a need for harder bullets in the 9MM. I am gong through the same headaches with PCing and have concluded mistakes in the application of the product is the primary reason for failure to achieve proper results. Just think how we will feel once we get it all right. Guys are using the product in rifles at much higher pressures than the 9MM achieves. I ask all of this because next week I start with HI-TEK.

Take Care

Bob

[kweidner]

Are you getting any silver streaking in your barrel, or nothing?

Maybe I could try coating once, sizing, then coating 2 more times then not touching it? (sizing did not harm the coating at all anyway, just burnished it smooth to .3570)


I will gladly check out your process if you want to drop a few in the mail. Have you tried to catch any yet? I once thought a bbl was streaking but upon firing and recovering some in rubber mulch, I found it was powder residue. Recovered bullet was 100% covered. When I was first experimenting with the coating I stopped many with the rubber mulch trick just to verify my process. Higher pressure stuff like 9mm and 40 in my opinion do require a 92/6/2 or equivalent. Is there any accumulation or just light grey streak?

[Ausglock]

Higher pressure stuff like 9mm and 40 in my opinion do require a 92/6/2 or equivalent.

Yep. I agree 100%.
38, 44 and 45 can get away with alloy of questionable quality and hardness.
9mm, 38 super, 40, 41, need 15 16 BHN

[robertbank]

Yep. I agree 100%.
38, 44 and 45 can get away with alloy of questionable quality and hardness.
9mm, 38 super, 40, 41, need 15 16 BHN

So are you saying you need that type of hardness for HI-TEK to work? Do you harden your 9MM after you cure the powder in your oven. The curing process anneals the lead as you likely know. I agree you need a harder bullet for high pressure lead bullets. You don't seem to for PC bullets.

Take Care

Bob

[gunoil]

Any farms for sale near you ausglock?

[kryogen]

I cook the last hi tek coat for 1 hour at 220 then quench. That should bring it to 18-20

[HI-TEK]

Any farms for sale near you ausglock?

How big area do you need?

[Ausglock]

I know a farm a few hours away.
Comes with a few Donkeys for free.

[Ausglock]

So are you saying you need that type of hardness for HI-TEK to work? Do you harden your 9MM after you cure the powder in your oven. The curing process anneals the lead as you likely know. I agree you need a harder bullet for high pressure lead bullets. You don't seem to for PC bullets.

Take Care

Bob

No. What I'm saying is that I do not buggerise around with mixing mystery metals.
I buy certified 2.6.92 hardball alloy.
I used to use range reclaim at about 12 BHN and is worked OK.

It boils down to trying what you have.
At a commercial level, it doesn't pay to try and mix metals. it wastes too much time and is not cost effective.

[robertbank]

Agree on the Commercial basis. For home castors the rules change a lot based upon where you live and what is available. Water quenched WW work just fine for lead bullets in te 9MM. Some I know just go with air cooled. I would think since the coating acts as a barrior between the lead and the inside of the barrel it would be enough to prevent gas cutting (like plated does). If that is the case then lead hardness is irrelevant. for low pressure rounds like the ones you quote air cooled WW would and are perfect for lead bullets especially if they are mated with soft lube.

Take Care

Bob

[robertbank]

I cook the last hi tek coat for 1 hour at 220 then quench. That should bring it to 18-20

Are you still experiencing leading?

Bob

[kryogen]

Are you still experiencing leading?
Bob

I will shoot the 100 that I have on saturday, and inspect the barrel with a light.

So far, after 20, I would say yes, but it's still pretty much just streaking in the barrel. I'll shoot more and check.

I only have 2 light coats on though, lube grooves are not coated. I could try 3 thicker coats next time maybe.

Those 357 105 SWC shot awesomely well in my glock, much better than any 355 or 356 FMJ that I have ever shot, plus the holes are so nice and round. Love it, if I could just get it to not lead. Maybe with 3 thicker coats, I don't know, I'll check.

[kweidner]

I will shoot the 100 that I have on saturday, and inspect the barrel with a light.

So far, after 20, I would say yes, but it's still pretty much just streaking in the barrel. I'll shoot more and check.

I only have 2 light coats on though, lube grooves are not coated. I could try 3 thicker coats next time maybe.

Those 357 105 SWC shot awesomely well in my glock, much better than any 355 or 356 FMJ that I have ever shot, plus the holes are so nice and round. Love it, if I could just get it to not lead. Maybe with 3 thicker coats, I don't know, I'll check.


Many hardness testers will lie. I use the cabine tree and use an ingot of certified 92/6/2 for a reference. It can be eye opening.

I know many use 2 coats. I use three as I have found with the recovery I stated earlier, the coating stays 100 percent intact. On another note, I had a gun that would shred the coaing due to bbl condition. It didn't matter what i did. It was a throating issue and I sent it down the road and replaced it with a longslide glock.

[robertbank]

kryogen I don't know whether you read about some of the difficulties I ran into with powder coating until I discovered the source of my problem. It involved the Lyman 356402 truncated cone bullet and my Dillon seating die. What was happening was the seating die was allowing the bullet to tilt as it seated rubbing one side or another of the bullet to the point where the coating was stripped off the bullet ( I have no way of knowing whether it was rubbed off or shave off). I suspect the former as I had a very generous belling on the case. I have no idea if the HI-TEK product would react to the die the same way. The cure was to use the Dillon stub for RN bullets rather than the end designed for FN bullets. I have a set of Lee 9MM dies and I suspect I would have run into the same problem with the stub designed for FN bullets with the 356402. The flat nose on the 356402 is very small in diameter. In any event by changing out the die stub I found, by pulling the bullets. the coating remained intact using the RN stub. It snowed last night due to the temp falling just below 0C so it won't be until this afternoon before I get out to test the bullets performance at the range. I hope you are not running into the same issue.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

pulled bullets are ok, no scraping.

[robertbank]

If that is the case you may have a Glock barrel that leads up. Some do, some don't. The problem with Glocks from what I can see is those that do, really don't lead up badly but it does accumulate if you don't clean your guns. Some Glock owners think cleaning their Glocks is really not necessary. Others do clean them and remove any leading that is there. Does your barrel have leading of any kind shooting regular lead bullets with traditional soft lube? If it doesn't then you really do have an unsolved problem on your hands like I did. If it does lead up with regular lubed lead bullets then it may be a case where your gun is always going to lead up a bit with your gun. I would have thought the PC or HI-Tek would solve leading even in a Glock since I assume both products work like plated or jacketed bullets relying on a barrier between the bullet and the bore of the gun. Regular bullet lube prevents gas cutting by sealing the bore as it turns to a liquid under pressure.

Joe from Hi-Tek should be able to comment on how his product actually works. I do know it does and rather well from what I can see. My quest will start next week.

Take Care

Bob

[RP]

Checking the hardness on a ingot is not the same as checking the hardness on a bullet they will never read the same. From what I have read and seen it goes like this a ingot cools at a different rate due to the volume and the size then a bullet for the most part and you also are testing with something that is made to test bullets. Do a test for yourself check your ingot then cast a bullet then wait the given about of time most say is 10 to 15 days but I myself would give it a month then test the bullet. If your ingot hardness is the same as the bullet hardness the people that say they are in the know on these things are wrong. Granted this will not be the first time people have said something as a fact to be proven wrong later. I base this off things I have seen with my tester and the paperwork that came with it along with some others that appear to know what they are talking about. So the main thing to keep in mind it really dose not matter what your ingot test at what matters is your bullet. Btw mine also say to test several bullets and do a average to get the hardness.

[Avenger442]

We had some questions about smash test. Here is what the test looks like on process that works in my .308 rifle.


That is one hit with 2 lb sledge on anvil. About 1/8" smashed.
Should note that one of these did give me some dust when smashed. Have had these before and they don't seem to be a problem in the rifle.

Also been playing with the temperature and time.


One on left is my normal cook temperature and time 390 F +/- 10 F for 12 minutes.
One in middle is 10 degrees hotter same time.
One on right is 10 degrees hotter for one hour at last bake.
If you could see them laying on my bench you would see each one progressively darker.
One on the right will not be what I am doing in the future. Have concerns about the condition of the coating.
First one air cooled after three coats of 1035 Gold liquid. Last two were water dropped after coating.
Ran BHN test on the two water dropped one day after coating. They were virtually the same. So the hour cook may not help BHN in my alloy. Will be running some additional BHN testing on bullets. Report to follow.

[robertbank]

You say you cooked the bullets at around 400F for an hour then dropped them in water and they did not harden. Strange.

Bob

[gunoil]

You'll all better quit smoking that stuff.

[Rodvan]

Success at last! :wink: All the problems I had of leading the barrel were due to Dillon powder funnels being .003-.004 undersized and swaging the bullet down to .353 for 9mm & .397 for 40 S&W.
I replaced the Dillon powder funnels with Double Alpha Academy.

Chrony results
Set: 10
Created: 04/17/15 03:05 PM
Description: Hardline 124 9.00 sized .356
Notes 1: Power Pistol 5.0 grains
Notes 2: OAL 1.100
Distance to Chrono(FT): 15.00


Shots:
# FPS / FT-LBS
54 1123 / 347
53 1138 / 357
52 1127 / 350
51 1159 / 370
50 1138 / 357
49 1119 / 345
48 ERROR 2
47 1113 / 341
46 1110 / 339
45 1137 / 356
44 1128 / 350
43 1115 / 342
42 1128 / 350
41 1129 / 351
40 1126 / 349
39 1135 / 355
38 1137 / 356
37 1128 / 350
36 1127 / 350
35 1130 / 352
34 1118 / 344
33 1121 / 346
32 1099 / 333
31 1113 / 341
30 1121 / 346
29 1131 / 352
28 1126 / 349
27 1129 / 351
26 1132 / 353
25 1108 / 338
24 1110 / 339
23 1128 / 350
22 1123 / 347
21 1130 / 352
20 1153 / 366
19 1131 / 352
18 1136 / 355
17 1131 / 352
16 1115 / 342
15 1118 / 344
14 1131 / 352
13 1121 / 346
12 1106 / 337
11 1087 / 325
10 1111 / 340
9 1092 / 328
8 1130 / 352
7 1095 / 330
6 1127 / 350
5 1098 / 332
4 1112 / 341
3 1106 / 337
2 1094 / 330
1 1085 / 324
Average: 1121.0 FPS
SD: 15.3 FPS
Min: 1085 FPS
Max: 1159 FPS
Spread: 74 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.3
True MV: inf FPS

[Avenger442]

You say you cooked the bullets at around 400F for an hour then dropped them in water and they did not harden. Strange.

Bob


That's not exactly what I said. The bullets may be harder than they would have been air cooled.
I water dropped the one that was baked 400 for 12 minutes and the one that was baked 400 for one hour and after a day there was no difference in the BHN between the two. So baking for an hour may be overkill as far as improving the BHN in my alloy. We will see at 14 days.

But glad to see your reply so I could clarify.

[Ausglock]

My G34 and G35 in 357Sig get cleaned maybe once a year. really no need to clean the barrel. Only clean the powder gunk out of the action.
Same with the SVI, Kimber and Springfield 1911's

[Shotgundrums]

Kryogen why do you think you need a harder bullet? I would have thought the coating acts just like plating. Your bore is obviously sealed if you are using .357 bullets so you are not, or should not be experiencing gas cutting. It sounds more like a coating issue than a bullet hardness issue. I don't recall Ausglock or HI-TEK ever mentioning a need for harder bullets in the 9MM. I am gong through the same headaches with PCing and have concluded mistakes in the application of the product is the primary reason for failure to achieve proper results. Just think how we will feel once we get it all right. Guys are using the product in rifles at much higher pressures than the 9MM achieves. I ask all of this because next week I start with HI-TEK.

Take Care

Bob

You know, Barrels can be funny creatures... I purchased a lonewolf barrel for a glock 17 (threaded for a sound suppressor) to be utilized with...wait for it.....cast bullets. The barrel is beautiful. But, it doesn't give a good seal with hardcast (or soft cast) bullets. My methods are extreme but they prove to be valid.
First thing I did was slug the barrel with dead-soft lead. Then took a relief with cerrosafe alloy. The measurement was .3568...great. So, I casted some 135gr pills. Some were COWW alloy, fluxed several times with the copper root killer, added some tin, water dropped, hardness average was 13-14 BHN. The others were of 92/6/2 alloy. I coated all these bullets twice with dark green, sized them to .357 to 359 ( I loaded the 359s cause after pulling a few they were swaging truly down to just over .358) . Loaded them up, in separate alloy groups to 1.10 COAL and in 4-round bundles with charges from 2.8 to 3.8 grains of titegroup.
Every 4-shot session, little by little with each shot, leaded the barrel grooves. I de-leaded the barrel each 4-round session. And it was your typical gas-cutting leading; the lands were shiny.
When I got home I started to play with the barrel some more.
I got some of these bullets out and slugged the barrel with these bullets. I slugged them into different sections of the bore...357s, 8s, 9s and as-cast bullets which were .361 sometimes.
Each time I drove a slug into a place in the barrel, I placed a bright flashlight at the muzzle and could see tiny amounts of light passing the bullet in the groove corners. No mater what size bullet I did this with, no bullets were completely sealing the grooves. .357 up to .361 diameter bullets, all coated. And after popping the bullets out, the HiTek coating was fully intact on the bullets...lands and grooves and all.
In the end, I come to believe this barrel will always lead.

[robertbank]

Man you have gone the extra mile and them some. I would try shooting uncoated WW alloy bullets with near max charges and see if the bullets will bump up to fill the rifling. If that fails I would:

1. Make a plaque and mount the $%$#$@$# barrel on it and call it good.
2. Buy a M&P Pro with a 1 - 10 barrel or a CZ Shadow

Both will shoot lead, plated and jacketed bullets extremely well and do the same thing I am sure with Powder Coated or HI-Tek coated bullets. Life is to short to put up with undue amounts of leading when you want to shoot your own cast bullets, traditional lubed/PC'd/HI-TEK.

I have a GP-100 that leaded badly in the first 1/16th " of the rifling until I had the forcing cone cut to 11 degrees. Problem disappeared along with inconsistent accuracy. Gun now is a keeper.

As an aside I have a Tanfoglio 5" 9mm with Polygonial rifling that has the cleanest barrel you ever saw after shooting lead bullets cast from WW, water quenched from the mold. Shoots air cooled bullets made from the same alloy just as well but I find dropping them in a water bucket easier than dropping them on a mat to air cool. Just a personal thing.

Take Care

Bob

[Shotgundrums]

At the 3.8gr mark, recoil was a bit snappy and cci primers were getting flat. No soot on the brass at 3.6 thru 3.8 grs

[robertbank]

Make a plaque and find a dealer - choose either the M&P or CZ.

Take Care

Bob

[HI-TEK]

You know, Barrels can be funny creatures.........
I got some of these bullets out and slugged the barrel with these bullets. I slugged them into different sections of the bore...357s, 8s, 9s and as-cast bullets which were .361 sometimes.
Each time I drove a slug into a place in the barrel, I placed a bright flashlight at the muzzle and could see tiny amounts of light passing the bullet in the groove corners. No mater what size bullet I did this with, no bullets were completely sealing the grooves. .357 up to .361 diameter bullets, all coated. And after popping the bullets out, the HiTek coating was fully intact on the bullets...lands and grooves and all.
In the end, I come to believe this barrel will always lead.

Thanks for your input.
It is telling me, a novice, that the bore of that barrel may not not a "true" and even internal diameter bore.
Many years ago, I heard of something similar happening with a new barrel.
It turned out that the tool used to finish bore may have been a bit "questionable", and produced high spots and low spots inside bore. It seemed, that depending on where internal measurements were taken, the internal bore size varied and bore was found more oval shaped in spots, and not truly round.
I really dont know how this can happen, but it did.
The tooling guy said that he thought that the steel used in making barrels varied in hardness/composition causing tooling to make progressive uneven travel and cut.
Is it possible to get a precision adjustable Reamer, to re-do the bore, and that way user may approach getting a good bore, or is it simpler to just get another barrel?
Just a thought.

[gunoil]

I shoot plain base gas checks/hitech in glock barrels. Super clean. l love seating gas checks, just walk up once a while, set dwn, do a few and come back later do more at that station. Sageoutdoors.com

Would you know ball park price $ for that farm ausglock?

[robertbank]

Gas checks can solve a lot of issues including gas cut induced leading. The aluminum GC makers now being offered reduce the need for Glock owners to go out and buy after market barrels to shoot lead if leading is an issue in their guns.

I would still be interested to hear HI-TEK's opinion as to how the coating he sells works. If it provides a hard coating over the entire bullet then gas cutting induced leading should not occur you would not think nor should it occur using powder coating. The product works and perhaps that really is all we have to know.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

Will shoot the rest of the bullets that I have this afternoon, and I'll take pics of the barrel. Trying a stronger load, the first load was too mild.

Next time I'll try 3 thicker coats at 358.

[kweidner]

Success at last! :wink: All the problems I had of leading the barrel were due to Dillon powder funnels being .003-.004 undersized and swaging the bullet down to .353 for 9mm & .397 for 40 S&W.
I replaced the Dillon powder funnels with Double Alpha Academy.

Chrony results
Set: 10
Created: 04/17/15 03:05 PM
Description: Hardline 124 9.00 sized .356
Notes 1: Power Pistol 5.0 grains
Notes 2: OAL 1.100
Distance to Chrono(FT): 15.00


Shots:
# FPS / FT-LBS
54 1123 / 347
53 1138 / 357
52 1127 / 350
51 1159 / 370
50 1138 / 357
49 1119 / 345
48 ERROR 2
47 1113 / 341
46 1110 / 339
45 1137 / 356
44 1128 / 350
43 1115 / 342
42 1128 / 350
41 1129 / 351
40 1126 / 349
39 1135 / 355
38 1137 / 356
37 1128 / 350
36 1127 / 350
35 1130 / 352
34 1118 / 344
33 1121 / 346
32 1099 / 333
31 1113 / 341
30 1121 / 346
29 1131 / 352
28 1126 / 349
27 1129 / 351
26 1132 / 353
25 1108 / 338
24 1110 / 339
23 1128 / 350
22 1123 / 347
21 1130 / 352
20 1153 / 366
19 1131 / 352
18 1136 / 355
17 1131 / 352
16 1115 / 342
15 1118 / 344
14 1131 / 352
13 1121 / 346
12 1106 / 337
11 1087 / 325
10 1111 / 340
9 1092 / 328
8 1130 / 352
7 1095 / 330
6 1127 / 350
5 1098 / 332
4 1112 / 341
3 1106 / 337
2 1094 / 330
1 1085 / 324
Average: 1121.0 FPS
SD: 15.3 FPS
Min: 1085 FPS
Max: 1159 FPS
Spread: 74 FPS
Shot/sec: 0.3
True MV: inf FPS

Yes sir. glad you found out too. I converted all mine last march. Though the post was on this thread but I may have started new one. Sorry.

[kweidner]

I shoot plain base gas checks/hitech in glock barrels. Super clean. l love seating gas checks, just walk up once a while, set dwn, do a few and come back later do more at that station. Sageoutdoors.com

Would you know ball park price $ for that farm ausglock?


Just a theory but a viable one. As we all know you can scrape the coating with a little work. I think it's high pressure loads with fast burning powders that are more the culprit. I have fixed a couple issues by slowing down powder burn rate in some problem loads. On a too soft bullet the gas and powder blast erodes the bullet base with the coating prior to the seal.
Come on. Powder blast can erode barrel steel why can't it cut the coating? Same is true for bad made barrels that will copper foul. You can't expect it to hold up at those pressures if steel can't. IE top strap flame cutting......
I think some are thinking too much into it. It is a fantastic product but not for every application and every single firearm. Maybe the cure is in the new bronze. Or at least it will help out those bad apples. I am already on the waiting list and have a buddy that has the perfect candidate for experimentation. I use boatloads of the gold 1035 as it has proven the toughest for me so far. Who knows that might change with the bronze. Either way, I will continue to cover most variables with foundry 92/6/2 and the gold 1035.

I am a happy manufacturer with many happy customers,

Ken

[robertbank]

Ken even if the powder base is eroded and I am not sure how that would cause leading once the seal does take place. Unless the rifling is capable of cutting the coat I don't see how gas cutting is going to be an issue. I have shot something in the neighbourhood of 30K rounds of 9MM using nothing more than WW alloy using Win 231 and soft lube and not experienced leading. If the base of the bullet was the issue surely that would have caused issues in anyone of a number of 9MM guns I have owned. My sense is both Hi-TEK and regular PC when applied right with a bond to the metal is pretty tough stuff. If guys are running rifle bullets to 2700 fps then pressures exhibited in pistol cartridges out to be a piece of cake. The Aussies have been using this stuff for years with no problems. Heck Ausglock reports no leading in his G34 and he shoots IPSC, a very high round count sport with a gun not noted for it's ability to handle lead bullets. Maybe not using the G34 though. Add his practice time and I would bet he does 20K rds a year. I don't do quite that but close. I am not in the Glock camp, just run M&P's and CZ's.

Take Care

Bob

[Rodvan]

Yes sir. glad you found out too. I converted all mine last march. Though the post was on this thread but I may have started new one. Sorry.
Kweidner: Your post is the reason I bought the DAA powder funnels. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?215108-So-your-Dillon-shaves-your-boolit!-Heres-the-solution!
I forgot to give you credit when I posted, sorry and thanks or the idea.
Rod

[HI-TEK]

Gas checks can solve a lot of issues including gas cut induced leading. The aluminum GC makers now being offered reduce the need for Glock owners to go out and buy after market barrels to shoot lead if leading is an issue in their guns.

I would still be interested to hear HI-TEK's opinion as to how the coating he sells works. If it provides a hard coating over the entire bullet then gas cutting induced leading should not occur you would not think nor should it occur using powder coating. The product works and perhaps that really is all we have to know.

Take Care

Bob

Hi Bob,
Good question.
If you look at Gas checks, they are Metal foil types, and will conduct heat.
Gas checks have much higher melting point than alloys used, so, it stands to reason that any heat caused by powder burn, will be evenly dissipated at base.
With coatings, the baked film, has very poor heat transfer rates, (non heat conducting but heat reflecting), so the idea is that heat from powder burn is reflected away from alloy.
In order for coating to work to stop heat damage to alloy, a good seal/cover coatings is required in areas of the base of alloy.
Some coat once, then size, to make base even, then, re-coat twice more to cover any imperfections. That is possibly best way to ensure total and complete encapsulation of alloy, so no metal is exposed to heat.
Due to very short exposure times inside barrel and powder burn area, the coatings all should survive well, and if fit is well balanced for bore, there should be no problems.
From what I have learnt so far, (could be wrong), gas cutting is normally due to poor sealing of alloy in barrel, and base being heat affected from high energy powder burn. This is causing burnt gasses to bypass between alloy and bore, and melting alloy as heat is concentrated in a small area.

[popper]

Avenger - what is your alloy and did it have any arsenic?

[robertbank]

Well I am at the end of my rope with powder coating and my 9MM. I went out today and after 20 rounds there was obvious signs of leading in my 75 Shadowline, my 85 Combat, and my M&P Pro. None of these guns lead up using the same bullet using regular lube loaded through the same press.

Smoke is reduced and that is a bonus. Accuracy is excellent. What it would be after 300 rounds....well I just don't know. I intend to be out all day on Monday shooting and I have a 300 loaded rounds to send down range so we shall find out then.

As a last ditch attempt I will size some bullets .357 and run them through the same guns.

I have not shot any 45acp bullets with the coating not 40 cal and I have some of them coated so why not? I'll load some of them too. Tomorrow.

Tuesday is HI-Tek coating day and I intend to do two coatings on unsized bullets. Size them once after the first coat maybe and shoot them after the second coat.

This has to get better or it isn't going to be worth the trip. Life is to short.

Take Care

Bob

[Avenger442]

Avenger - what is your alloy and did it have any arsenic?

I'm one of those COWW guys. Believe that COWW has some arsenic less than 1%. 98% COWW with 2% tin.

[zomby woof]

The weather finally broke and I got to cast some boolits. I used my new Brick Red coating from Bayou. It seems to coat much better than the Red Copper I got two years ago. I even used more acetone and it still seemed like the first coat was thick compared to the previous coatings I used. Wipe and smash passed. These are two coats. They look beautiful. I can't wait to shoot them.

137263

[Avenger442]

Well the yard sale oven door broke today. It will not stay closed. So in my usual riggit fashion I wired it shut. Still cooking! Guess I'm going to another yard sale.

[Shotgundrums]

Neato!!

[kweidner]

yes sir thus my theory on imperfect barrels sharp throats etc. This has been my experience anyway. Also why harball works best for higher pressures.

[Gremlin460]

Tuesday is HI-Tek coating day and I intend to do two coatings on unsized bullets. Size them once after the first coat maybe and shoot them after the second coat.

This has to get better or it isn't going to be worth the trip. Life is to short.

Take Care

Bob

That is my methology Bob and it works in a S&W 1911 pro barrel slugged at 355.2, cast sized to 356 also
a 92fs Inox Beretta slugged at 356.3 and sized cast to 358.
Coat 3 hours dry in the sun. bake 10 mins, air cool, size 358 (all of them) recoat dry 3 hrs, bake 10 mins, Water drop, dry.
Load them "as is" for the 92 and resize to 356 for the 1911.

2/300 rounds in one day each, both barrels shiny after one pass with a bore snake.

[kryogen]

hey robert, not to be negative, but trust me, if it leads with powdercoating, it will lead the same with hi tek. ask me how I know.
You need to find out why it's leading with PC, because you will have the same leading with hitek.

By the way, I shot 70 more bullets today, and my barrel is GRAY at the last inch. Lands and grooves, I even have some lead "peeling" out of the barrel.
It's the worst leading I ever got I would say.

That was 2 coats at 357. They cycled really smooth and nice with 5.65 grains of unique, lee 105SWC, 1.000 OAL
I LOVE swc holes in paper, I want this boolit to stop leading....

Will try one last thing, 3 coats, sized to 358, water quenched. If that still leads.... I'll get into aluminum gas checks or something.
I would rather just alum GC and not bother with the alloy... If that can stop leading, and it doesnt cost much to do, and it doesnt seem to be really long or complicated.

[HI-TEK]

hey robert, not to be negative, but trust me, if it leads with powdercoating, it will lead the same with hi tek. ask me how I know.
You need to find out why it's leading with PC, because you will have the same leading with hitek.

By the way, I shot 70 more bullets today, and my barrel is GRAY at the last inch. Lands and grooves, I even have some lead "peeling" out of the barrel.
It's the worst leading I ever got I would say.

That was 2 coats at 357. They cycled really smooth and nice with 5.65 grains of unique, lee 105SWC, 1.000 OAL
I LOVE swc holes in paper, I want this boolit to stop leading....

Will try one last thing, 3 coats, sized to 358, water quenched. If that still leads.... I'll get into aluminum gas checks or something.
I would rather just alum GC and not bother with the alloy... If that can stop leading, and it doesnt cost much to do, and it doesnt seem to be really long or complicated.

If possible, can you please capture some fired bullets, and take photos.
It will or should tell all, by examination of detailed pictures.

[kryogen]

If possible, can you please capture some fired bullets, and take photos.
It will or should tell all, by examination of detailed pictures.

Quite soon I'll be able to go shoot at the outside range, I'll shoot into water jugs, and will recover bullets.
Now they just hit the steel backplate and I guess that they are quite bad looking.

[Shotgundrums]

hey robert, not to be negative, but trust me, if it leads with powdercoating, it will lead the same with hi tek. ask me how I know.
You need to find out why it's leading with PC, because you will have the same leading with hitek.

By the way, I shot 70 more bullets today, and my barrel is GRAY at the last inch. Lands and grooves, I even have some lead "peeling" out of the barrel.
It's the worst leading I ever got I would say.

That was 2 coats at 357. They cycled really smooth and nice with 5.65 grains of unique, lee 105SWC, 1.000 OAL
I LOVE swc holes in paper, I want this boolit to stop leading....

Will try one last thing, 3 coats, sized to 358, water quenched. If that still leads.... I'll get into aluminum gas checks or something.
I would rather just alum GC and not bother with the alloy... If that can stop leading, and it doesnt cost much to do, and it doesnt seem to be really long or complicated.

Try this if you care to. Pound one of your bullets into the barrel with a wooden or brass dowel. Check to see if the bullet loses grip or resistance (get looser to where you can push it freely or with far less effort) in that general area.
I once returned a beretta92fs KKM barrel (match barrel...awesome company) for this very reason. Leading right there and only there. And that's what I found. They replaced it. They scratched their head at my tactics, but it works and it's scientific enough😀

[kryogen]

No loose spot, leads mostly at the end of the barrel

[gunoil]

sharp throats. Need to check my scratchy throat. Great pro idea.

[Ausglock]

Gunoil.
This farm price....I think the owner would pay you to take it off his hands.

Feral Donkeys, Brown snakes, Chemical contamination.
It has it all.
Contact HITEK Joe....

[HI-TEK]

Quite soon I'll be able to go shoot at the outside range, I'll shoot into water jugs, and will recover bullets.
Now they just hit the steel backplate and I guess that they are quite bad looking.

Until you can capture some and have a look at them, all you may be doing is guessing at what is going on. Until you can identify problematic area, you wont fix problem.

[HI-TEK]

Gunoil.
This farm price....I think the owner would pay you to take it off his hands.

Feral Donkeys, Brown snakes, Chemical contamination.
It has it all.
Contact HITEK Joe....

As they say, you will keep........

[Shotgundrums]

As they say, you will keep........

Is this where J&M spec products dumped its waste nuclear bullet coatings? LOL

[HI-TEK]

Is this where J&M spec products dumped its waste nuclear bullet coatings? LOL

These were all dumped at Ausglock place, and can be confirmed by Ausglocks own admissions.
His place glows in the dark, with Kryptonite Green and Zombie Green.
Now, he has a very strange glow, of glittery rainbow effects, that he is trying to patent..
It seems to attract wildlife to his place, as he constantly complains about all the wildlife arriving and staying, then has to feed and water them.
I cant remember for sure, but he did mention a strange silent aircraft hovering at his place overhead. Lucky, he was wearing his Tin foil Aluminium Cap when he tried chasing it away...

[Ausglock]

If ever I decide to go Commercial Casting, I'll have a lifetime supply of coating.
Might try coating shot. Then I can use wads without petals in the 12ga shells.

[Shotgundrums]

Trev, Joe...Fellas
May we please have Krypto Green, Up Over?

[HI-TEK]

Trev, Joe...Fellas
May we please have Krypto Green, Up Over?


To where????

[HI-TEK]

If ever I decide to go Commercial Casting, I'll have a lifetime supply of coating.
Might try coating shot. Then I can use wads without petals in the 12ga shells.

Development/research is coming to a stop.
Unless it can be justified with commercial interest, there is no justification, to just keep on making or trying to make more colours and more options.
The products have been tweaked to suit majority and is all working well.

[Shotgundrums]

To where????

Lol. I guess up over would be ANY direction other than Down Under. One of our renown HiTek reps I'd guess. Gateway or Bayou.
Krypto is only a liquid, isn't it?

[HI-TEK]

One of our renown HiTek reps I'd guess. Gateway or Bayou.

That is possible, may be with next shipment. It can be sent but requires commercial interest so orders can be placed. May be you can ask about possibility with the US guys.
Kryptonite Green is only available as liquid system.

[Shotgundrums]

That is possible, may be with next shipment. It can be sent but requires commercial interest so orders can be placed. May be you can ask about possibility with the US guys.
Kryptonite Green is only available as liquid system.

I guess it wouldn't hurt to inquire... Maybe a better likelihood if it were a powder.
Speaking of liquid being 5:1 resin/cat, is there an change if a little extra catalyst is added? Just Learnage

[HI-TEK]

I guess it wouldn't hurt to inquire... Maybe a better likelihood if it were a powder.
Speaking of liquid being 5:1 resin/cat, is there an change if a little extra catalyst is added? Just Learnage


Some of these peculiar colours are not possible to make into Powdered systems.

With our data sheets, with Catalysts, we advise use from 180mls to 220mls per litre.
Use of a slight excess does not hurt at all, but excess, just makes cooking a little more fumy.
Excess is either used up or vaporised with baking.
Catalysts are not really required, as coatings will heat cure, but may take many hours.
Adding an additive, aside from improving numerous other physical benefits, it simply allows commercial speed production and speeds things up from many hours to minutes per batch.

If I recall, some had commented about "odours" when shooting.
These were mainly caused by under cooking and or inadequate cooking at set temperatures.
Once coating is heat set adequately, and long enough, no odorous materials should remain as these should be all driven out by heat from set coatings.
Hope I answered your question.

[Redwoode]

I was just asking Donnie if he had any krypto green while placing an order. I'd be happy to get a couple of 1 liter kits of liquid.

[Ausglock]

Development/research is coming to a stop.

Really???
what about the one coat process?
What about the fluro Orange?
What about the Sky blue?
What about Lime green?
What about Whiskey flavoured coating???

[kweidner]

No props please. Just glad it helped. This thread gets read more than others as it's so thorough. Glad it worked out for you. If you ever do .300 blackout get the .30 carbine funnel.

[kweidner]

Quite soon I'll be able to go shoot at the outside range, I'll shoot into water jugs, and will recover bullets.
Now they just hit the steel backplate and I guess that they are quite bad looking.

Kyrogen. If you still are running into problems, let me know, I may can send you a few of mine to try. Had a beretta 92 do this once and turned out peening from barrel hood was the culprit. If it will chamber .358 go for it.

[robertbank]

No loose spot, leads mostly at the end of the barrel

That would suggest the coating is coming off as the bullet travels down the barrel leaving exposed lead which is cut off and deposited on the barrel be the hot gases. I would suggest there is little likelihood the barrel itself is the problem. Have you experienced leading when using regular lead bullets using the same alloy etc. The latter most certainly is not the issue. The coating, if it remains in tact, would prevent leading unless the lead can pass through the molecules of the coating which is difficult to believe even for a skeptical banker.

A PC Update: I have closely examined the "leading" I recently experienced. On closer examination it looks like it may be powder coating residue and not leading as I first surmised. I want to spend a little more time at the range before coming to a final conclusion. I am also having custom seating stems made initially for my Lee 9MM Seating die. Each will be form fitted for the three 9MM bullets I use. My Dillon seating die will be retired until I have tine to decide what I want to do with the internal stub that contacts the bullet. Any attempt to describe current thoughts on what I want to do with it would have me banned from this site and sent to the lower after life as the Egyptians described "Hell".:D

Take Care

Bob

[Shotgundrums]

Development/research is coming to a stop..



Really???
what about the one coat process?
What about the fluro Orange?
What about the Sky blue?
What about Lime green?
What about Whiskey flavoured coating???


Yeah, Wonka!
These coatings will never be complete until we can eat or drink them, while achieving jacketed performance!

[rnt300]

Anybody using the powder version? The reason i ask is can it come out as smooth and as slick as the liquid versions?

[Gremlin460]

Anybody using the powder version? The reason i ask is can it come out as smooth and as slick as the liquid versions?

Yes because you apply the powdered version as a liquid when you coat.

[Shotgundrums]

Anybody using the powder version? The reason i ask is can it come out as smooth and as slick as the liquid versions?
Read around in this forum. There's everything to learn. You can get smooth pills by dumping them out just before they start to get sticky in your bucket.

[kryogen]

There were large amounts of leading in the last inch of the barrel. A new 45 brush and some hoppes9 made a quick job to remove all leading.

I will try 358, with 3 thicker coats instead of 2 thin on 357. (I went really thin). Also water dropped.

Will report once I have tested it.

The leade into the lands of the glock barrel look really smooth with no sharp anything.... I don't really get it.

Maybe I should try the "fire lapping bullets" ?

[rnt300]

Read around in this forum. There's everything to learn. You can get smooth pills by dumping them out just before they start to get sticky in your bucket.

thank you, it may be i am mixing to long. They passed the smash test, so now its getting them smooth as the ones i got from palmetto projectiles.

[robertbank]

There were large amounts of leading in the last inch of the barrel. A new 45 brush and some hoppes9 made a quick job to remove all leading.

I will try 358, with 3 thicker coats instead of 2 thin on 357. (I went really thin). Also water dropped.

Will report once I have tested it.

The leade into the lands of the glock barrel look really smooth with no sharp anything.... I don't really get it.

Maybe I should try the "fire lapping bullets" ?

.358 is pretty large for a modern 9mm barrel. I have never heard the need for a bullet that size for a Glock. You maybe working against yourself. The coating could well come off just from the added friction if it is indeed coming off resulting in exposed lead on the driving bands of the bullet.

It is all 9 tenths witch craft.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

well then what do I do?

[Sticky]

Okay, been playing with 308 boolits and coating them, so... my new process, which is working well for now, is to cast, water drop and coat them the same day. I coat once, then seat gas checks and size, then recoat.. yep.. the gas checks get the second coat.. lol

I was having trouble seating gas checks with two coatings applied, so coating once has solved this when seating gc's and sizing, then I coat them again. Works like a champ. :)

Two coats of Red Copper...

137381

[Ausglock]

well then what do I do?

Find somebody else with a G17 or 34 and try your loads in their gun.
That will help eliminate some of the issues.
I have supplied 135gn RN to a local shooter with a *** 92fs that needs .358 to stop leading.
His gun now shoots more accurate and zero leading.

[Ausglock]

Okay, been playing with 308 boolits and coating them, so... my new process, which is working well for now, is to cast, water drop and coat them the same day. I coat once, then seat gas checks and size, then recoat.. yep.. the gas checks get the second coat.. lol

I was having trouble seating gas checks with two coatings applied, so coating once has solved this when seating gc's and sizing, then I coat them again. Works like a champ. :)

Two coats of Red Copper...

137381

Nice..Do any GC come off when applying the second coat?

[Sticky]

Nice..Do any GC come off when applying the second coat?

No, the gas checks snapped right on after the first coat and then I sized them, coated again and all is good, no gas caps popped off after baking the second coating. Plus, the gas checks match the boolit coating color better now.. LMAO

ETA: these are Hornady gas checks, they crimp on pretty well. ;)

[Sticky]

I ran about 20 rounds of powder coated and about 50 rounds of Hi-Tek coated loads through my AR308 last week doing some load testing with no leading issues at all. They were all gas checked, two different boolits running from about 2000-2400fps.

These are some Lyman 311299's that I just picked up a mold for. Ran the first batch of them today and they came out quite well. Anxious to load some up in a few weeks for testing. ;)

[HI-TEK]

Find somebody else with a G17 or 34 and try your loads in their gun.
That will help eliminate some of the issues.
I have supplied 135gn RN to a local shooter with a *** 92fs that needs .358 to stop leading.
His gun now shoots more accurate and zero leading.

I just dont understand, why it is so difficult to simply capture a few and examine what it looks like.
It would stop all the guesswork.

[robertbank]

Shoot a couple into a five gallon pail of water with newspapers lining the bottom of the buck should capture one easy enough.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

Because of the legislation in canada for restricted firearms (pistols)
i am only allowed to shoot at the indoor range.
at the range i am only allowed to shoot at the paper targets, bullets hit the backstop.
i am not allowed to try to salvage bullets
i am not allowed to shoot at anything else.
i am not allowed to shoot anywhere else.

get it?
I dont make the stupid laws..... And then i am allowed to shoot 50 bmg on crown land because its not restricted..... Or semi auto 338 lapua magnum..... But not pistol

[HI-TEK]

Because of the legislation in canada for restricted firearms (pistols)
i am only allowed to shoot at the indoor range.
at the range i am only allowed to shoot at the paper targets, bullets hit the backstop.
i am not allowed to try to salvage bullets
i am not allowed to shoot at anything else.
i am not allowed to shoot anywhere else.

get it?

Got it, loud and clear.
I feel for you. It is a very restrictive area, just like here.
At least, there are outside ranges here, that will allow you to shoot into a drum with water.
Here, all user has to do, is arrange the test with range supervisor, when no one else is using range.
Simple and practical.

[robertbank]

Joe there are outside ranges here. More of them than indoor. Every range has there own rules and each Province has a Chief Firearms Officer who can issue his own rules within certain limitations. The further west you go the less restrictions. We are not near as bad as Australia in terms of Gun Laws based upon some of the limitations guys over their have related to me. Most of our more restricted laws came out of California and came to be after a number of females engineering students were gunned down in their classrooms in Montreal. Knee jerk reaction by the Federal Gov't of the day and later the Liberal Gov't added even more nonsense when they introduced the Federal Gun Registry.

Where I shoot on a WW11 ex military range or what is left of it, we could have bullets out of a bucket for you faster than it took to write this post.

Take Care

Bob

[gunoil]

God bless usa, l carry in bars. Unless iam drinking alcohol. Shoot inside outside. Aussies have more women and sheep. Canadians just freeze their tails off, lol

[jcwit]

God bless usa, l carry in bars. Unless iam drinking alcohol. Shoot inside outside. Aussies have more women and sheep. Canadians just freeze their tails off, lol

It was as warm in parts of the Yukon as it was in Bristol Tn. today.

[kryogen]

I might be able to shoot at the outdoor range into a jug once I have my range officer card and the snow is done melting and the soil is dry. The range is in a swamp, and right now no one goes because they have re-opened the indoor range. So for now, I just cannot shoot outside.

[NYBushBro]

Okay, been playing with 308 boolits and coating them, so... my new process, which is working well for now, is to cast, water drop and coat them the same day. I coat once, then seat gas checks and size, then recoat.. yep.. the gas checks get the second coat.. lol

I was having trouble seating gas checks with two coatings applied, so coating once has solved this when seating gc's and sizing, then I coat them again. Works like a champ. :)

Two coats of Red Copper...

137381

Two questions: what was your alloy, and did you soak the Cu gas checks in acetone prior to installation (for degreasing purposes)?

[robertbank]

kryogen once I get some bullets made up I will try the 5 gallon pail method to recover a bullet or two. Two feet of water likely won't stop a 9MM bullet but if I line the bottom with newspapers it should work. Raining again to day but warm with temperatures around 12C . I want to get some more practice in today so it is off to the range in an hour or so. From your posts I assume you are in Ontario - good guess or am I off a bit. Not Ft. McMurray? My son is up there and volunteers as RO at the indoor range.

The collective brain trust here should be able to figure out your problems. You must have some friends with other pistols. Why not run some of you loads through their guns and see if the bullets lead up their bores. If they do you will have eliminated your barrel as the culprit. You could send 10 bullets over to me and I could run them through my CZ's or M&P's to see if they lead up the bores.

gunooil The nice part of having snow piled up in July is you don't have to go to the fridge to get your Molsons. Just keep the bottles stored in the snow banks. Eliminates the need to go to a bar.

jcwitt - jeez guy don't be telling them that. If you are not careful we will be knee deep in vets from the War of Northern Aggression.

Take Care

Bob

[jcwit]

Hehehehe!

[farmerjim]

Mythbusters episode:
In their first experiment, the experimenters shot the 9mm pistol straight down into the water. At a range of up to seven feet, the 9mm round was effective in completely penetrating the ballistics gel – meaning a person at the same range would be killed. At eight feet, the bullet entered but did not exit the gel, indicating a possible non-fatal wound. Past eight feet, the gel was undisturbed.

The shotgun, loaded with a 3” deer slug instead of buckshot, not only "killed" the ballistic gel target at six feet, it destroyed the acrylic water tank, ending that method of testing.

You will need a lot more than 2 feet of water and newspaper. You might try a 10 ft 4 in diameter PVC pipe

[robertbank]

The wet newspapers at the bottom of the pail might be tough to penetrate. 9MM bullets will stop in about three feet of snow but snow is going to be harder than water. You may be right though. We shall see. The worse thing to happen will be we have a new trash bucket for the range. Umm the pipe has possibilities. The issue there might be keeping the bullet in line. If it hits the sides of the pip it will rub off the coating and invalidate the test.

Take Care

Bob

[Ausglock]

FWTW... I really think you blokes are over thinking it.
Just fire them in a different gun and see what happens.
Far less buggerising around than with water jugs and wet paper etc etc.
Shame you are so far away, I'd send you a few 100 of mine to fire.

[robertbank]

Ausglock if you did send some of yours over to shoot what would it prove? Joe thought it might be an idea to recover some of his bullets. Some Glock barrels are known to lead up. The easy answer is to buy a barrel for the gun with standard rifling or sell it and buy an M&P Pro with standard rifling. The least expensive method is to try to figure out why his gun is leading up using HI-TEK coating. From what little I know of the process the gun should not IF the coating is applied correctly, ergo....

If the coated bullets act the same way as plated or FMJ bullets then it really matters not what kind of barrel you have it should not lead up.

If all else fails and he liked the fact you get less smoke from either the HI-TEK or regular PC bullets he can always make plain base GC's. for his bullets and continue to use his Glock. If it were me I wouldn't bother. I would sell the gun or buy a after market barrel for it IF I wanted to continue to use coated bullets. Either his process is wrong based upon your results or his barrel is never going to like PC/HT or Lead bullets.

Bob

[Ausglock]

Ausglock if you did send some of yours over to shoot what would it prove?

It would rule out his coating practices and whether it is the alloy hardness,
Mine are of a known alloy and correct coating procedure.

I don't see anyone else offering to send him bullets to try.

There are 1000's of Glock 17 and G34's being fired in OZ every weekend with coated bullets.
Surly his isn't the only one ever made with a dicky barrel.

[robertbank]

It would rule out his coating practices and whether it is the alloy hardness,
Mine are of a known alloy and correct coating procedure.

I don't see anyone else offering to send him bullets to try.

There are 1000's of Glock 17 and G34's being fired in OZ every weekend with coated bullets.
Surly his isn't the only one ever made with a dicky barrel.

Fair enough. What I don't understand is if this coating provides a hard coating and acts like a plated/fnj bullet in that it forms a barrier between the barrel and the bullet and does NOT act like a lube what difference does the hardness of the alloy make? FMJ alloy is not particularly hard and from what I have seen plated bullets use an alloy similar to Lyamn's #2 which is not real hard either. In short leading will only occur if the lead is touching the barrel and gas is getting by the bullet. What am I missing?

The bolded type is exactly my point! The same can be said for the alloy. I cannot believe the alloy has anything to do with the leading nor the size of the bullet. The variable is how he is either mixing his powder or how it is being applied.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

ausglock, do you know other shooters that had leading glock barrels, that replaced those and that it worked?
(I still need to try the 358 3 coats water dropped, maybe next weekend.... too much work.

[Shotgundrums]

ausglock, do you know other shooters that had leading glock barrels, that replaced those and that it worked?
(I still need to try the 358 3 coats water dropped, maybe next weekend.... too much work.

Three coats, alright. Please just adhere to the first coat being very thin. Then two thicker coats. Heck, bake them for an hour like Popper does :)

[Shotgundrums]

137462137461
Here's a .360 bullet I slugged through my g17 bbl.
it came out measuring .3562 No coating came off.

[Ausglock]

ausglock, do you know other shooters that had leading glock barrels, that replaced those and that it worked?
(I still need to try the 358 3 coats water dropped, maybe next weekend.... too much work.

There were a heap of them using a commercial bullet here. It was found that the manufacturer was not baking correctly. the coating was not cured and they leaded badly.
He fixed his oven temps and everything is OK again.

[Ausglock]

Fair enough. What I don't understand is if this coating provides a hard coating and acts like a plated/fnj bullet in that it forms a barrier between the barrel and the bullet and does NOT act like a lube what difference does the hardness of the alloy make? FMJ alloy is not particularly hard and from what I have seen plated bullets use an alloy similar to Lyamn's #2 which is not real hard either. In short leading will only occur if the lead is touching the barrel and gas is getting by the bullet. What am I missing?

The bolded type is exactly my point! The same can be said for the alloy. I cannot believe the alloy has anything to do with the leading nor the size of the bullet. The variable is how he is either mixing his powder or how it is being applied.

Take Care

Bob

Not correct.
I have seen Plated bullets lead a barrel as bad as un-lubed lead. The rifling cut through the plating and exposed the lead core.
Most plated use a soft alloy and let the copper take the brunt of the firing.
Berrys are soft.
Frontier are hard with a thick plating.
Extreme are soft with a thin plating and are the worst.

Jacketed can used soft lead due to the fact that the jacket is thick.
One manufacturer here was coating plated bullets.

[Shotgundrums]

Kryogen, did you once mention PCing bullets?

[robertbank]

Not correct.
I have seen Plated bullets lead a barrel as bad as un-lubed lead. The rifling cut through the plating and exposed the lead core.
Most plated use a soft alloy and let the copper take the brunt of the firing.
Berrys are soft.
Frontier are hard with a thick plating.
Extreme are soft with a thin plating and are the worst.

Jacketed can used soft lead due to the fact that the jacket is thick.
One manufacturer here was coating plated bullets.

It probably is a reading and comprehension problem. If plating cuts through of course it will lead. If kryogens barrel is leading then it most likely cause is the coating is breaking down in the bore.

Cause:

1. It doesn't work! - That cannot be the cause because the product does work.
2. Improper application of the product likely due to either curing or application.
3. The Glock barrel might be the cause but I doubt it.

He has already reported his barrel is smooth with rounded Glock rifling so there are no sharp edges to cut the coating. So what is left?

Take Care

Bob

[Shotgundrums]

Epoxy...
It works well

[HI-TEK]

Epoxy...
It works well


Works well????
I dont understand.
If the Hi-Tek coating, does not work, why would an Epoxy work????
Epoxies are much softer, they melt/soften with heat, so if any thing, it should make Leading much worse.
I am not trying to cause controversy or an argument, but I am reluctant to simply accept a statement, that "epoxy works" without direct comparison tests being done and reported, with same alloys coated with each product, and shot in same gun on side by side basis..
If it works out, that one works better than the other, so be it, but results then can be published with justifications.

[Shotgundrums]

Works well????
I dont understand.
If the Hi-Tek coating, does not work, why would an Epoxy work????
Epoxies are much softer, they melt/soften with heat, so if any thing, it should make Leading much worse.
I am not trying to cause controversy or an argument, but I am reluctant to simply accept a statement, that "epoxy works" without direct comparison tests being done and reported, with same alloys coated with each product, and shot in same gun on side by side basis..
If it works out, that one works better than the o514-7184ther, so be it, but results then can be published with justifications.

No...wait lol. Forgive me. I wasn't trying to imply HiTek doesn't work. I use the **** out of it. It may not be working in Kryo's barrel circumstances...whether its a cure process, or alloy..who knows.
A thermosetting epoxy will not melt. Thermoplastic, like powder coat, yes. I'm not a scientist Joe, lol, so I really couldn't explain epoxides and polymer chains as well as you could. But, I have used many resins in my occupation; once epoxy is set up and cured, it won't melt. And not all are created equal. But if subjected to severe heat, it will burn or char or become brittle. But, it's not in the barrel long enough to experience any of that. I have yet to scrape epoxy out of my barrel.
As far as coating a lead bullet with thermosetting epoxy, paint or otherwise, it does provide a very tough barrier, or makeshift jacket...like PCing. And it just may be a viable option. The only guns' bullets I do this process to are for magnum loads for two smith & wesson revolvers of 357 mag & 44 mag. These guns don't have perfect barrels. The have a tight spot where the barrel is fitted to the frame. HiTek doesn't take to this sort of thing. Epoxy method or even powder coat, while slower processes, are more forgiving to issues like this.

[gunoil]

What he said⬆️:

l do love squisshing on gas checks though.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/98A02DD0-4DC1-49D2-BA49-A8C82FA374F2_zpsx2ujtovn.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/putt2012/media/98A02DD0-4DC1-49D2-BA49-A8C82FA374F2_zpsx2ujtovn.jpg.html)

Super straight shots and clean barrels w/ hitech and chexs hold the gas behind boolit w/+P loads.
----------------------------------------------------
brevity&misspelling rampant.

[Shotgundrums]

Were those chex squeezed on a plain base slugs? Lee sizer? Those look great

[HI-TEK]

They have a tight spot where the barrel is fitted to the frame. HiTek doesn't take to this sort of thing. Epoxy method or even powder coat, while slower processes, are more forgiving to issues like this.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for reply.
As I said, I did not intend to cause arguments and it is not my intention to be controversial.
Despite some epoxies being heat set, they do get soft with heat, as they only get to a hardness, specifically designed for end use.
There may be heat set Epoxies, that may be OK for gun use, and, as you said, you have not had deposits inside barrel using these Epoxies. That is great.

I was mainly commenting/comparing the two heat set systems.
We are aware, that extra heat, actually hardens the Hi-Tek much further, and it does not soften.
Hi-Tek is applied very thinly as all that is required to separate bore from alloy.
Deformation of alloys, seals the coating against barrel.
As Hi-Tek is very hard when comparing to Epoxy, it does not have much "compression give" that would allow more compression.
Correct sizing for particular barrel, then becomes more important.
Epoxies, are generally applied as much thicker coatings, and when sizing these, you end up with a more spongy, thicker, flexible coating, and possibly more uneven in thicknesses.
I can understand why such coatings may be regarded as being "more tolerant" to "tight Spot" areas in barrels.
I am really wondering just what is final film thickness of Epoxy after bake, and, what is alloy actual diameter after sizing is done?
However, when considering the deforming ability of the Hi-Tek (as demonstrated with smash tests) if the coating is first bonded well to alloy, the alleged "tight spots" should not be a problem.
That is why, if a problem is encountered, it is important to capture and examine shot projectiles, very critically, to determine what is going on.

With regards to barrels & bore matters, you again raised an important area.
It is well known that bores can be not parallel nor perfectly straight or evenly round.
This was advised by another blogger, as when slugging a bore, it was found that some areas inside barrel, were different with resistance & ability to push through an alloy, which was directly caused by uneven bore, and barrel was replaced by manufacturer.
Then, the question remains,when you find such a barrel, then which projectile diameter size is best for such a bore to work well.

[kryogen]

My application process is ok. They all pass smash and wipe 100%. I even baked last coat 1 hour at 220C.

Should I bake all coats at 220 instead of 200 just to make sure? Or just keep doing the 12 min at 200 once oven is back to temp.

Gunoil, what kind of check maker do you use? I would love to GC my plain base 357 bullets and just be done with the trouble.... unless the 358 3 coats water dropped actually work.

[ioon44]

After reading the last 4 pages, I think one thing people are not looking at closely enough is barrel size & bore condition.
My Glock's a 22 and 19 with the factory barrels are shooting the Red Copper coating with out any problems. I am sizing .402" and .3575" with 6-2-92 alloy,

What is working well for me is to warm the boolit to 25-30deg C before coating then place in heated cabinet for 1/2 to 1 hour at 55deg C. Then bake in convection oven for 12 min at 205deg C with 2kg of boolits on 1/4" screen trays. I have used 2coats and 3 coats both work fine.

[ioon44]

After reading the last 4 pages, I think one thing people are not looking at closely enough is barrel size & bore condition.

My Glock's a 22 and 19 with the factory barrels and Lone Wolf barrels are shooting the Red Copper coating with out any problems. I am sizing .402" and .3575" with 6-2-92 alloy. With .45 Auto out of a 1911 no problems.
My .40cal barrels measure .4005" & 9mm .356".

What is working well for me is to warm the boolit to 25-30deg C before coating then place in heated cabinet for 1/2 to 1 hour at 55deg C. Then bake in convection oven for 12 min at 205deg C with 2kg of boolits on 1/4" screen trays. I have used 2coats and 3 coats both work fine.

Two guns that have not been able shoot the HI-TEK coating as I apply it are M&P 9mm, after examining these barrels I found they measure .357" and have machine marks in the bore and very rough over all. After only 20rds the bores were completely filled with lead. These barrels are in the process of being lapped and are showing some improvement.

I have a .44 Special has a really rough and large barrel, 5 shot's with lubed boolits and it's totally leaded, I have coated some 200gr .44 and I am guessing it will strip the coating off when I get a chance to shoot it.

I'm not posting this to trash any ones guns, just sharing my findings.

[ioon44]

[QUOTE=ioon44;3224806]After reading the last 4 pages, I think one thing people are not looking at closely enough is barrel size & bore condition.

My Glock's a 22 and 19 with the factory barrels and Lone Wolf barrels are shooting the Red Copper coating with out any problems. I am sizing .402" and .3575" with 6-2-92 alloy. With .45 Auto out of a 1911 no problems.
My .40cal barrels measure .4005" & 9mm .356".

What is working well for me is to warm the boolit to 25-30deg C before coating then place in heated cabinet for 1/2 to 1 hour at 55deg C. Then bake in convection oven for 12 min at 205deg C with 2kg of boolits on 1/4" screen trays. I have used 2coats and 3 coats both work fine.

Two guns that have not been able shoot the HI-TEK coating as I apply it are M&P 9mm, after examining these barrels I found they measure .357" and have machine marks in the bore and very rough over all. After only 20rds the bores were completely filled with lead. These barrels are in the process of being lapped and are showing some improvement.

I have a .44 Special has a really rough and large barrel, 5 shot's with lubed boolits and it's totally leaded, I have coated some 200gr .44 and I am guessing it will strip the coating off when I get a chance to shoot it.

I'm not posting this to trash any ones guns, just sharing my findings.[/QUOT


Sorry for the double post.

[Shotgundrums]

[QUOTE=HI-TEK;3224579
With regards to barrels & bore matters, you again raised an important area.
It is well known that bores can be not parallel nor perfectly straight or evenly round.
This was advised by another blogger, as when slugging a bore, it was found that some areas inside barrel, were different with resistance & ability to push through an alloy, which was directly caused by uneven bore, and barrel was replaced by manufacturer.
Then, the question remains,when you find such a barrel, then which projectile diameter size is best for such a bore to work well.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if anything can be done in regard to an imperfect barrel other than evolve the coating into something more impervious to situations. Once a cast bullet morphs to a tight spot or irregularity in a barrel and moves to an open area, gas bypass is inevitable. I'd love to try this new bronze against my revolvers.
I have pictures of epoxy coated cast bullets, fired and unfired, if you want to see them. I've casted bullets of relatively soft alloy, epoxy coated, and fired them full-snot without problems.

[robertbank]

I'm not sure if anything can be done in regard to an imperfect barrel other than evolve the coating into something more impervious to situations. Once a cast bullet morphs to a tight spot or irregularity in a barrel and moves to an open area, gas bypass is inevitable. I'd love to try this new bronze against my revolvers.
I have pictures of epoxy coated cast bullets, fired and unfired, if you want to see them. I've casted bullets of relatively soft alloy, epoxy coated, and fired them full-snot without problems.

If the lube on the bullet, in the case of lubed bullets, is working correctly no gas should get by the then liquid lube as it's primary purpose is to prevent gas from getting by. If the coating is hard enough I have a hard time believing the gas is going to cut through the coating in the short time the bullet is in the gun. Plated and FMJ bullets don't lead my revolvers that have barrel restrictions due to the tightening of the barrel or tight cylinders so why would a coating material that is as hard? Accuracy can certainly be affected though.

Take Care

Bob

[Shotgundrums]

I contacted Donnie this afternoon. I politely asked for a small sample of the bronze to test with my "coating-problematic" revolvers. A friend of mine is going to try and acquire a 55 gallon drum for me to aid in testing. Im leaving the states for official business for a month. Donnie told me no problem and to call him back then, remind him of the conversation, and by that time should have plenty of the coating.
With this ill do testing on 92/6/2 alloy and WW alloy, test epoxy coating, HiTek powder, red copper and Bronze with both alloy. I'll Take Notes and pictures on each outcome. Sound good??

[Avenger442]

Went to the range today. Really bad day to try and zero a new scope. Wind was constantly changing direction and speed. My targets were moving around it was so bad. We have had about two weeks of off and on rain and the range was a mud hole.

Shot .223 bolt gun with Winchester hollow point varmint loads and soft point Remington against my reloads with the Hi-Tek coated Lee Bator bullets. Shot about 100 rounds total with the lead the last ones shot.. The Hi-Tek shot as accurate as the factory loads. In fact a bit better than the Remington. Right at 2" at 100 yards. Wish I could find some Federal match ammo in the store. According to Manufacturer that is what they used to test the gun.

Anyway, was running a patch through the barrel before checking for lead and got back some bright flecks of metal. I thought oh no my first leading with the Hi-Tek. First time I've shot this loading. Pulled the aluminum rod out and guess what. I had inadvertently let the rod get against the rifling and it scraped a place in the rod.

I know this is going to sound like the newbie I am at using lead bullets but I haven't had anything that looks like leading in a barrel. If you get some leading in the barrel like I read some of you describing as grey streaks at what point does it effect the accuracy of the gun? When it fills up a portion of the rifling? Not that I know but, I can't see a streak of color on the rifling having that much effecting on accuracy and I have read that some want to shoot matches with dirty barrels.

Good results today considering the weather. Lee Bantor coated with Hi-Tek 3 coats 1035 Gold liquid. 2" at 100 yards with no leading in the barrel.

[Sticky]

Two questions: what was your alloy, and did you soak the Cu gas checks in acetone prior to installation (for degreasing purposes)?

These were cast with COWW and 2% tin added (water dropped from the mold), I also often use a 94/3/3 alloy that gets a little harder and no, I didn't soak the gas checks, not really worried about coating adherence to the Cu, if it does, great, if not, so what.. lol

Just figured that only having a single coat would make seating the checks a little easier and yes, they snapped right on by hand, then ran them through a Lee push-through sizer to size and crimp the checks on, then coated a second time. We'll see how they shoot in a couple weeks when they've aged.

[kryogen]

what do you use to make the checks

[kweidner]

If the lube on the bullet, in the case of lubed bullets, is working correctly no gas should get by the then liquid lube as it's primary purpose is to prevent gas from getting by. If the coating is hard enough I have a hard time believing the gas is going to cut through the coating in the short time the bullet is in the gun. Plated and FMJ bullets don't lead my revolvers that have barrel restrictions due to the tightening of the barrel or tight cylinders so why would a coating material that is as hard? Accuracy can certainly be affected though.

Take Care

Bob

It has been said with much repitition. It is not as hard as copper. yes barrel condition has much affect on it's life down the bore with HT. You have much to say and haven't even used the product yes?

[Sticky]

what do you use to make the checks

I use Hornady copper gas checks, bought commercially. My Brother has a checkmaker, but I haven't snagged it from him yet... lol

[gunoil]

Barrel size and bore problems in manufacturing is definitely some of the trouble. I've heard some say they see leading with copper plated bullets. Iam really involved in gas checking any caliber nowdays, l just like installing them.

[robertbank]

It has been said with much repetition. It is not as hard as copper. yes barrel condition has much affect on it's life down the bore with HT. You have much to say and haven't even used the product yes?

If I took your tack if I ran into trouble I would immediately blame it in the barrel. Why would you suggest Hi-Tek has to be as hard as copper. Ordinary lube is not as hard as copper and it works down these same barrels, just using a different approach to solve the leading problem. If you get the application wrong then Hi-Tek nor PC is not going to work. I have had some experience in PCing and I have heard nothing to suggest Hi-Tek doesn't rely on the same principle ie you have to apply it correctly or it won't work.

I'll have more to say once I get a warmer sunny day. I rather hope no more than two applications are all that is necessary for this product to work. One would be better.

As an aside the "why" barrels lead has been known for years. Do a search and I doubt you will find so much concern about the quality of handgun barrels than has been expressed on threads involving this product and to a lessor extent powder coating. If you have to drink some magic elixir for this product to work or if N.A. gun owners are the only folks who are cursed with bad barrels than it maybe time to move on. The stuff works, it is being used by many and commercial outlets are selling bullets with the product applied.

'Back to your point, the stuff doesn't have to be as hard as copper. For that matter it doesn't even have to be hard. It just has to prevent leading. In kryogen's example he is already sending a bullet down his barrels larger than the bore so the bore is sealed from gas cutting. If he is still getting leading then the coating must be coming off as the bullet goes down the barrel. Evidence tells us this must be happening because he reports the leading is nearer to the end of the muzzle. Either he has a rough barrel, and he says it is mirror smooth or the product is coming off on its own due to friction. If there is a third cause I am all ears.

Take Care

Bob

[gunoil]

How about hitech compared to a lead boolit run thru a magma star sizer proper. They are both lubes like said above. Does anyone have a star or lyman to state their opinions. Do star/lyman boolits lead (no coatings) the end of the pistol barrel?

[Maximumbob54]

I can add that I got into bullet coatings because a coated bullet can be a little more forgiving than a lubed lead bullet in multiple guns. I own several .357's and .38's and I used to have to keep several sizers on hand depending on what ammo was being made for what gun. Now it's just coat them and shoot them.

[Ausglock]

Matching alloy to the bullet to the bore is still the king.

Just humor me and buy 1 ingot of hardball alloy, cast with it. coat them. size them. shoot them.
inspect bore.
If.....If there is leading then I am at a loss.

[Avenger442]

Well I guess that I'm going to have to buy a Ruger Redhawk 44 mag. and start loading Hi-Tek in a wheel gun so I can understand. Nothing like living in the problem to help you understand it.

Ausglock:
Are you still using the Breville oven and is it connected with a PID?

[kryogen]

Matching alloy to the bullet to the bore is still the king.

Just humor me and buy 1 ingot of hardball alloy, cast with it. coat them. size them. shoot them.
inspect bore.
If.....If there is leading then I am at a loss.

Cant get hardball in canada. If I buy from the usa, it's going to cost the same to buy hardball alloy vs buying plated bullets.....
For me, it's either cast from scrap WW, or no cast.

If I cant get heat treated 358 3 coats to work, I'll make aluminum gas checks. Buying hardball makes no sense here in canada.
my COWW ingots cost is 30 cents a pound.

If it leads with my last try, I'll buy the pat marlins plain base check maker and just use that with aluminum flashing. Not that much of a trouble to place a GC and pass through lee sizer again.

[kweidner]

I have had tons of experience with this product. I think if you go back to the beginning of this thread you will find I was one of THE FIRST that got ahold of it after Donnie started selling it. I now have an FFL and do commercial sales, I have run thousands upon thousands down all my weapons and many others. THere is no snake oil here.
Please don't take this the wrong way, however, experience is wisdom. I would hate to send a person on a wild goose chase based upon speculation over what one reads. On the the other hand, those of us offering advise on hardness, coating process, cure times, temperature swings, proper loading technique etc. have been down this road.
On another note ,Comparing the two has been done many times. It is not the same (maybe Joe can chime in here) A sharp throat can shave it, improper seating can affect it. Bore condition CAN affect it. My only statement was how you can give advice from a chair when many of us are trying to offer concrete advise from EXPERIENCE?

I do value your opinion. I just am trying to offer that advise from MY experiences and what I do know about the product and how it has worked with literally TONS of lead I have applied it to. If it weren't that the offending issue was in a different country I would gladly send him some of mine to compare gratis to settle it.

To Avenger. I use Brevilles no need for the PID. They are rock solid. I have multiples and have used them pretty much every day sometimes 12 hours at a go and IIRC have had them over a year now. They have held up well are are well worth the money IMHO.
Use the cookie and Frozen setting it circulates the air better. I have tried all the settings and this has been the most consistent with the least temp differences throughout the tray. I am sure those Ausies like em cause they read celsius as well as fahrenheit too. Ausglock I though you built a big oven?

[Shotgundrums]

You are very correct , Trev. However, I am a firm believer in Elmer Keith. His favorite allowy when developing the 44 magnum cartridge as we know it today, he used 20:1 lead/tin and around 11 to 12 bhn with no leading. I believe for this to follow suit, bore and cylinder has to be harmonic. Modern revolvers nowadays are unfortunately made with cut corners :( I believe your revolvers are the exception; maybe you have some older models... I had a smith mod 29 for a while that was a dream with cast bullets and ate anything I fed it, soft, hard, without leading. I miss her :)

[Avenger442]

To Avenger. I use Brevilles no need for the PID. They are rock solid. I have multiples and have used them pretty much every day sometimes 12 hours at a go and IIRC have had them over a year now. They have held up well are are well worth the money IMHO.
Use the cookie and Frozen setting it circulates the air better. I have tried all the settings and this has been the most consistent with the least temp differences throughout the tray. I am sure those Ausies like em cause they read celsius as well as fahrenheit too. Ausglock I though you built a big oven?

Since the yard sale oven door went south and I'm tired of wiring it shut I'm headed for another oven. The oven has cooked about 70 lb of bullets for me. The only issue was that the heat wasn't evenly distributed and it would make some a shade darker than others. It was convection but cheap convection. No effect on the performance of the bullets. Hi-Tek has been working as well as any ammo I can buy for my rifles so I'm going to keep loading it.

The reason I asked about the PID, was I wondered if Ausglock had taken his apart to just wire the heating elements to the PID. If PID is not needed for Brevilles may add PID to another Lee pot like Ausglock has in his setup. That pot over a pot looks cool. Although I can't imagine using more than 20 lb of lead at a sitting.

[robertbank]

kweidener (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?17240-kweidner) are you saying we must use very hard bullets for this stuff to work? If you are I'll out an order in for bullet lube and call this good. I have hopes that one or two coats will work. If it takes three coats it just is not worth the effort. Time costs. I personally am not going to spend all day to get a couple of hundred bullets done and then have them lead up the barrel because I don;t have the magical hardness in my lead. Frankly, a hard alloy makes little sense unless you are going to reharden the bullet. From what I hear the alloy will lose its temper when we heat and let the bullet air cool.

No offense taken. I invested $200 in PCing and the jury is out as to how effective that is. I freely admit I suspect I screwed up with the curing process. Time will tell. I did find out that seating the 356402 bullet was never going to be right using a Dillon seating die or a Lee for that matter. I now have a Lyman which seems to have solved the problem at its source. Whether or not the PC bullets hold up not I solved the seating issue has yet to be determined. All of this has been good experience because I have eliminated some of the issues that surely will impact th HI-TEK method.

Ship him some bullets if you are in the US. There is no problem shipping lead bullets across the 49th. Obama hasn't got to that yet.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

As you said bank, you absolutely need to seat without crimp first, and then just crimp enough to chamber.

On another note, I just got a nice shipment of 8 colours of Hi-tek that I can't wait to try.

I have mixed some gold, and gunmetal that I will try as soon as I have some time :P Yuk yuk.

[Avenger442]

Maybe what we could start with is a definition of hard and soft. To me a hard bullet is bumping 20 BHN+. A soft bullet would be 9 BHN and below.

I have been playing with the mixing of alloy for some time just to see what I could do. I have shot straight wheel weight, which I haven't tested the BHN on, in my .308 rifle at .5 grains short of the max load, 14 BHN (wheel weights plus 2% tin by weight) also at .5 grains short of max load, I'm shooting 16 BHN (2% tin 10% lino 88% wheel weights). The hardest I have shot to date I probably will never cast again because too hard for my use 24 BHN. That was this week in the .223. When you get that hard it can't be used for hunting in my opinion. All with no leading in my barrels. The wheel weight plus tin were also shot in a 44 magnum 1894 16 inch barrel with 23.5 grains of IMR 4227. Max load listed as 24 grains. That barrel, after a couple of passes with a dry patch looked like it had been cleaned. It was the most accurate load I shot. Better than the factory loads on groups.

I do coat three coats and have not tried two. Although Ausglock says I probably can. I can coat about 20 lb max in a 24 hour period with a one tray el-cheep-o oven. I'll let you do the math on how many that is for the 160 grain +/- and or 230 grain bullets I have been casting.

Hope the above helps.

I don't sell this stuff but would if I wanted to get into a bullet selling business. Donnie coats bullets for guys that shoot rifle. I don't think he would risk his business's rep buy sell something that doesn't work.

Keep at it. You can do it if a guy in his basement with a $15 (or was it $10) yard sale oven can.

Please excuse my cheer-leading attitude.:veryconfu

[Ausglock]

I pulled my Breville apart to fit a PID, but didn't finish it.

44 and 45 and 38spl run fine with 10 -12 BHN.
9mm 40 41 need 15-16BHn from my experience.
2 coats is all that is needed.
I run 3 coates for 44mag, 357mag rifle.

[Avenger442]

I pulled my Breville apart to fit a PID, but didn't finish it.

44 and 45 and 38spl run fine with 10 -12 BHN.
9mm 40 41 need 15-16BHn from my experience.
2 coats is all that is needed.
I run 3 coates for 44mag, 357mag rifle.


Thanks man. Answers my question.
My PIDs are both set up to plug what ever into them. May try Breville without one to begin with per kweidner. If that doesn't work will PID.

[220]

Ive been playing with Hitek for over a year, my take on it is this
If you have a BHN, size combination that works in your gun with a conventional lube then it will work with HiTek, it may even be a little less critical in regards to BHN and size.
If you have a gun that leads regardless of BHN, size or powder tried then HiTek isn't going to be a magical cure.

[HI-TEK]

Ive been playing with Hitek for over a year, my take on it is this
If you have a BHN, size combination that works in your gun with a conventional lube then it will work with HiTek, it may even be a little less critical in regards to BHN and size.
If you have a gun that leads regardless of BHN, size or powder tried then HiTek isn't going to be a magical cure.

Well put 220.
Lubes or coatings, will not be a magical fix for all problems.
It would be great, if the Hi-Tek solved all problems. Alas sadly, it does not.
What is very pleasing is, that many tens of thousands of shooters are happy with results obtained with Hi-Tek, and, in comparison, there are very few, (I could be wrong), that seem to have problems with or without the Hi-Tek stuff.
What I find very pleasing on this site is, the depth of highly experienced folk who are ready to assist with all sorts of questions.
Thanks all.

[kweidner]

Robert, You can get by with two in .45 acp and lower pressure stuff. I really think it depends on the platform. I use three on all cause that's my process. I have heard of some even using one coat. I like to account for as many variables as possible and feel three ensures less user error on seating etc. 9mm and 40 I have found is most successful with 92/6/2. I have a hollowpoint in prototype that I am using 9.5 bhn and getting fantastic results with three coats in 300 BO. It is made for subsonic and expands in ballistic gel to just over .44 at 100 yards.
It is not ready for mass market as the magma has some special requirements for a boolit this long with the mechanical HP inserts. Erik has figured out a way but I am still product testing before I take the financial plunge to get those molds HP.
Early on, at least in .40, I found hardball necessary. Running a magma and swapping out lead is a pain so thats what I run for all. I may purchase another bullet master specifically for the blackout depending on market demand. I do this part time but initial feedback is very promising.
Check out weidnercustom.com and click HT coated. Imagine that 300bo with a hollowpoint and you will better understand exactly what that boolit looks like. It has been very accurate in my testing in the HP version and it is 9.5 bhn! Again not the magical cure all but with the proper proper match in alloy and boolit design it is some AWESOME stuff.

[kweidner]

As you said bank, you absolutely need to seat without crimp first, and then just crimp enough to chamber.

On another note, I just got a nice shipment of 8 colours of Hi-tek that I can't wait to try.

I have mixed some gold, and gunmetal that I will try as soon as I have some time :P Yuk yuk.

Also important to note on dillon that seating dies are set up specifically for jacketed. They will close your flare while seating if you don't lap them out a few thou causing them to scrape coating on anything a bit larger than a jacketed bullet.
Another option that works well is use a seating insert from the next larger caliber ie .45 for .40 and crimp with normal. I have lapped all mine out except my .40 for this very reason. I just pull the pin, drop in the .45 seater and carry on.

[pauly]

G'day from Downunder . [smilie=s:

G'day Kweidner , I love the look of your .300 blackout bullet , I realise it would not be economical to get some sent down here to try so a couple of questions if I may (1) who makes the mold as I would like one (2) is it for a magna caster only or can it be had to use with handles .
I am currently coating 165 grain bullets to use in my .300 blackout encores with Hi-Tek D.D.Red two coats and they are working a treat but I sure like the looks of smooth sided one's on your site .

Regards Paul . :-)

[kryogen]

oh, My lee die bullet seater can be setup to just seat and not touch crimp. Never tried a dillon die.
Didn't know.

[kweidner]

It is one I designed with Tom at Accurate. Realistically is is the same profile as my jacketed. The thought process was hand swaged offerings are very expensive due to the time involved. I wanted to design a boolit that would allow mass production at plinking prices. It can be configured either way. The prototype for it was an aluminum hand cast that has now been hollow pointed. The production molds are steel and are specifically magma configured. Pretty soon those will get a new lease on life when I convert them to HP configuration via Erik. it is the 215e in Tom's catalog. There is also a 260 grain version that is the same profile just heavier. Both work very well suppressed subsonic. I am currently running the HP of the 215e version at 920fps and getting .44 caliber expansion. It drops 219 and change with 25-1 equivalent alloys.

[gunoil]

Also important to note on dillon that seating dies are set up specifically for jacketed. They will close your flare while seating if you don't lap them out a few thou causing them to scrape coating on anything a bit larger than a jacketed bullet. Another option that works well is use a seating insert from the next larger caliber ie .45 for .40 and crimp with normal. I have lapped all mine out except my .40 for this very reason. I just pull the pin, drop in the .45 seater and carry on.my dillon 380 seat die does not, it seats only.

[kweidner]

If your running .355 or .356 you might be OK. Anything larger and it will. For my personal 9mm I run .357 and it most certainly will. All Dillon seaters are slightly tapered so really it depends on brass and bullet dia.

[robertbank]

If you run the Lyman 356402 truncated cone bullet the Dillon flat seating plug will deform the flat point. You end up getting cartridges of varying OAL. I had a machinist make a plug for the hole in the brass seater. The flat point is quite small on this bullet which resulted in the nose deformation.

Take Cafe

Bob

[Avenger442]

It has been very accurate in my testing in the HP version and it is 9.5 bhn! Again not the magical cure all but with the proper proper match in alloy and boolit design it is some AWESOME stuff.

I just want to make sure I understood this and your other post. You are running a 9.5 BHN bullet with three coats of Hi-Tek at 950 fps in the BO?

[pauly]

G'day from Downunder . [smilie=s:

G'day Kweidner , thank you for the info I have several of Tom's molds and love them and will order this one shortly .

Regards Paul . :-)

[kweidner]

yes that is correct. Love em. they have been many a demise of a few deer, feral hogs, turtles in the fish pond and occasional feral cat.The 9.5 doesn't like a punch in the mouth but rather a slower burn. I had a load designed with a very fast pistol powder that sounded like a finger snap with the harball. It didn't go so well with the softer alloy. pushed with 1680 it is a little louder suppressed but zero leading.I also think the non lube groove design is a contributing factor on to why I am getting away with it. Also remember it is showing promise but not ready to loose it to production yet. I am a bit of a perfectionist.

[Ausglock]

I gave Tom the design for the 168Z and 150Z.
these are hand molds but now need them for auto caster.

[Avenger442]

kweidner:
Understand not perfect yet. Will be looking for update when you have it.
I've been looking at a .308 with a threaded barrel and was wondering if I could shoot the lead coated with Hi-Tek through a suppressor. I have read where some have had a problem with lead bullets through a suppressor. We have beavers that need eradicating in the lake.

[kweidner]

kweidner:
Understand not perfect yet. Will be looking for update when you have it.
I've been looking at a .308 with a threaded barrel and was wondering if I could shoot the lead coated with Hi-Tek through a suppressor. I have read where some have had a problem with lead bullets through a suppressor. We have beavers that need eradicating in the lake.

Still playing a bit with alloys. Right now I get .44 caliber expansion. Although very lethal, From an energy standpoint, I want a bit more expansion. The exit wound is not what I want to see in tough skin critters like hogs. It does come on through and leaves a good size hole Imjust want it a bit bigger. A well placed behind the shoulder shot on something in the deer category is different. I would like to see .50 or better without shearing nose. A beaver can't stand it we used it to erradicate a huge pond full. I have 3 more cans that should come out of FFA jail soon. Suprised I haven't seen them yet. All are user servicable so I can verify what I feel I already know through my suppressed shooting thus far with this boolit.

[220]

Every 4-shot session, little by little with each shot, leaded the barrel grooves. I de-leaded the barrel each 4-round session. And it was your typical gas-cutting leading; the lands were shiny.
When I got home I started to play with the barrel some more.
I got some of these bullets out and slugged the barrel with these bullets. I slugged them into different sections of the bore...357s, 8s, 9s and as-cast bullets which were .361 sometimes.
Each time I drove a slug into a place in the barrel, I placed a bright flashlight at the muzzle and could see tiny amounts of light passing the bullet in the groove corners. No mater what size bullet I did this with, no bullets were completely sealing the grooves. .357 up to .361 diameter bullets, all coated. And after popping the bullets out, the HiTek coating was fully intact on the bullets...lands and grooves and all.
In the end, I come to believe this barrel will always lead.

Ive got one the same, slug it and it measures .3555, trouble is that is only for the first 1" or so of barrel the remainder is .357.
Like you with a boolit in place I can see light, if I slug from the chamber end I can then line up the rifling at the muzzle end and start the boolit back into the barrel with moderate thumb pressure. If I tap the barrel against my palm the boolit will quickly disappear down the barrel to about 1" from the chamber where it then needs to be driven through.
After trying everything I admitted defeat and purchased a GC mold, it still leads but I can now shoot a few hundred rounds without tumbling where as previously I had tumbling in as few a 20 shots.

[popper]

Coated ~ 400 140gr PB for the BO last nite. Gold 1035 - 1 teaspoon powder to 6.5 acetone. Used 3/4 teaspoon for first coat, 1 teaspoon for next two. So far 3 teaspoons of powder to coat 1500, 3 coats. Have to get 'scientific/repeatable' about my method now. No groove plain base goes 1800 fps, 1 1/2 MOA @ 100 using AC Isocore 96/3/1 with some Cu & As added ( ~11 BHN). Accuracy was slightly poorer with the 1:7 barrel. I use about the same alloy for 9 & 40SW, H.T.'d (~ 20 BHN?). Guess I got to try it AC'd.
Avenger - Warning - only run the heating elements off the PID. NOT the electrics or fan. Makes it a little difficult as you then you have NO timer on the heater.

[Shotgundrums]

I wonder if Lino would be better for fast twist? Popper, do you wire the elements straight to the PID and plug the fan directly into wall outlet?

[Shotgundrums]

Ive got one the same, slug it and it measures .3555, trouble is that is only for the first 1" or so of barrel the remainder is .357.
Like you with a boolit in place I can see light, if I slug from the chamber end I can then line up the rifling at the muzzle end and start the boolit back into the barrel with moderate thumb pressure. If I tap the barrel against my palm the boolit will quickly disappear down the barrel to about 1" from the chamber where it then needs to be driven through.
After trying everything I admitted defeat and purchased a GC mold, it still leads but I can now shoot a few hundred rounds without tumbling where as previously I had tumbling in as few a 20 shots.

What barrel mfr? I'd send that barrel back, express your findings.

[popper]

Shotgundrums - yes. PID pulses power which will burn out the fan motor and probably mess up the digital stuff. Most of the calrods are push-on connections, easy to do. I have a power cord that goes directly to the PID that I use on the pot also.
Kweidner - I did some 7 ft. drop tests of 8:1 AC Isocore vs some H.T.'d (PC), 140 gr boolit. No denting on the H.T.'d, minor dents in the AC. I understand commercial uses hardball to avoid damage in shipping. Recovered H.T.'d 40-165C meplat went from .28 to ~ .38 when shot into a rock pile from 5', lost NO weight (same alloy as the BO, 2 coats green HiTek). 115 gr jacketed 9mm got all busted up. You might rethink the HP. Never recovered any rifle boolits, the pig shooting at Abilene this weekend got canceled due to weather.

[Avenger442]

the pig shooting at Abilene this weekend got canceled due to weather.

That weather is going to be here this weekend.

I got the tip from the PID threads about only hooking up the elements to the PID. I got lazy with my old oven and just ran the whole thing plugged into the PID. Fan was still going when the door broke. Fan would shut off when PID cycled off. But mine never had the circulation it needed even when I first bought it. Could tell by different color bullets coming out. Just had to make sure and do the wipe test on the lighter one. They all shot fine. Was considering Joe's suggestion of a new fan to improve color when the door broke.

[Shotgundrums]

That weather is going to be here this weekend.

I got the tip from the PID threads about only hooking up the elements to the PID. I got lazy with my old oven and just ran the whole thing plugged into the PID. Fan was still going when the door broke. Fan would shut off when PID cycled off. But mine never had the circulation it needed even when I first bought it. Could tell by different color bullets coming out. Just had to make sure and do the wipe test on the lighter one. They all shot fine. Was considering Joe's suggestion of a new fan to improve color when the door broke.

These Breville ovens seem to be 'to the point.' I'm starting to understand PIDs a little more. The only thing I'm stuck on is hooking it up. My oven is digital, and from how I'm understanding you Avenger, by hooking the entire unit to the PID, the order goes: Oven cord to PID, PID to cord, cord to outlet. When the PID cycles off, so would the oven along with the oven's fan, etc. When the PID cycles back on, (my) oven would just turn on and remain on standby, unless something or someone pressed the start button again.

By hooking the PID directly to the oven's elements and the convection fan plugged directly into the wall, the Oven's digital controls are obsolete, and what you're left with is a metal box with glow rods controlled wired to and controlled by a PID via temp probe.
Do I have this right?

I'm probably not going to PID this oven because it's a bit under powered (takes a little longer to cure) and the fan is about that of a mouse fart unless I bake at the top level where the convection air blows out from.

[popper]

By hooking the PID directly to the oven's elements and the convection fan (sic. the rest of the oven) plugged directly into the wall, the Oven's digital controls are obsolete, and what you're left with is a metal box with glow rods controlled wired to and controlled by a PID via temp probe.
Do I have this right? Yes, unfortunately, no timer on the PID so if the oven times out, the heat keeps going.
I don't preheat, mine takes about 10 min to get to temp then I watch it for another 10. Cooked 8# last nite. Humidity was 100% so I used the oven fan to dry the coating. My small oven has 4 rods, 2 bottom connected to the PID, I can unplug the top 2 or let the air temp get to 130F with the door open. I might find a mechanical control timer for the PID but I'm retired and it still doesn't take much time. I can process brass for 20 min.

[Avenger442]

You guys sound like your ovens are about like my yard sale oven. I believe I could have blown more air through mine with a hair dryer than the fan moved. Now there is an idea. Hair dryer hooked to the side of the oven....... Sounds like another project. Build your own specialty convection oven.

The PID did make a big difference in how much time I spent messing with the temp setting. Just turned it on and walked away. The timer on my oven is mechanical and not accurate to within half an hour. So was timing with phone.

I'm still trying to talk myself into the Breville. It looks like the way to go for the hobby guy that has some money to spend. Wife tells me she can get 20% off at Bed Bath and Beyond. That's still $200 plus tax. Ebay has one for $238. Will spend money on guns but somehow this oven thing doesn't equate with the shooting hobby.:brokenima

[kweidner]

Shotgundrums - yes. PID pulses power which will burn out the fan motor and probably mess up the digital stuff. Most of the calrods are push-on connections, easy to do. I have a power cord that goes directly to the PID that I use on the pot also.
Kweidner - I did some 7 ft. drop tests of 8:1 AC Isocore vs some H.T.'d (PC), 140 gr boolit. No denting on the H.T.'d, minor dents in the AC. I understand commercial uses hardball to avoid damage in shipping. Recovered H.T.'d 40-165C meplat went from .28 to ~ .38 when shot into a rock pile from 5', lost NO weight (same alloy as the BO, 2 coats green HiTek). 115 gr jacketed 9mm got all busted up. You might rethink the HP. Never recovered any rifle boolits, the pig shooting at Abilene this weekend got canceled due to weather.

I match the boxes to size and it gives no room to wiggle. The 25-1 will not expand at subsonic w/o hollowpoint or I promise I wouldn't have wasted time with the HP. Meplat is .20 and will only expand with hollowpoint at subsonic. I have done tons of ballistic gel and real game scenario as well as water and wet newsprint. I have recovered everything I have pointed the HP at. Just want a tiny bit more expansion. I will try and post pics tomorrow. They are on my phone.

[Gremlin460]

I match the boxes to size and it gives no room to wiggle. The 25-1 will not expand at subsonic w/o hollowpoint or I promise I wouldn't have wasted time with the HP. Meplat is .20 and will only expand with hollowpoint at subsonic. I have done tons of ballistic gel and real game scenario as well as water and wet newsprint. I have recovered everything I have pointed the HP at. Just want a tiny bit more expansion. I will try and post pics tomorrow. They are on my phone.

Have you tried a deeper HP Ken?

[Gremlin460]

Well its been 2 days, I would have thought Joe could have Driven by and dropped of the CAR powder by now, looks like I don't have to share the bottle of Kentucky after all...[smilie=2:

[HI-TEK]

Well its been 2 days, I would have thought Joe could have Driven by and dropped of the CAR powder by now, looks like I don't have to share the bottle of Kentucky after all...[smilie=2:


You will get yours soon.... and a surprise as well.... It left Friday.
I will need an old Kentucky bottle, but not to share.
I will be going up that way soon, to visit my Grandson, and he is also a HI-TEK rep, and wears the company shirt & cap.

[Ausglock]

Well its been 2 days, I would have thought Joe could have Driven by and dropped of the CAR powder by now, looks like I don't have to share the bottle of Kentucky after all...[smilie=2:

Hurry up and wait.

[Ausglock]

and he is also a HI-TEK rep, and wears the company shirt & cap.

I have a shirt and Cap too... Do I get family discount?????

[HI-TEK]

I have a shirt and Cap too... Do I get family discount?????

Discount???? what is that????
When you get one of each for free , my rough calculations are, that a discount on nothing would be nothing.....:D

You are not alone with shirts & caps.

I sent over to US about 100 so far.
They simply disappeared and, no sign of where they ended up and I heard no more since.
May be they were burnt in a ban Hi-Tek ceremony... who knows ???? lol lol...lol....:kidding:

[kweidner]

Have you tried a deeper HP Ken?

Mike so far I have tried a cup point and a fairly deep standard. it does expand all the way to the
to the end of HP just a little bit of nose shear. The alloy is not a standard 25-1 but an alloy made from a mixture of pure and hardball that gives the same bhn. I am thinking the extra tin and less antimony might be the ticket. I am just knee deep getting some custom work done right now. I have 4 more weeks of school and then I can devote two solid months to further experimentation and automating the AS/2

[Gremlin460]

Hurry up and wait.

Done that, I have actually loaded some Berrys for range tomorrow as me run out of coating!!!
I hope the CAR is actually a good colour!

[kryogen]

Trying the 3 thicker coat water dropped .358 at the range in my glock this afternoon. Shall see how it works.
Used 3ml for 2 pounds (120ml acetone to 10 grams). 2x bake at 210 for 12 min, 3rd bake at 220 then water drop and size to 358.
Pass tests ez.

If that still leads I have an order for the 35PB check maker and will just use pop can GCs on those with 2 coats of hitek, hopefully air cooled. If that works I won't need the GC.

[leadman]

Joe, I have a hat and shirt that Donnie gave me. Thanks.

[HI-TEK]

Joe, I have a hat and shirt that Donnie gave me. Thanks.

Thanks for letting me know.
I did request Donnie to supply them to you.
Unfortunately, I was only able to obtain limited numbers of specific sizes, which may not have been suitable.

[HI-TEK]

Trying the 3 thicker coat water dropped .358 at the range in my glock this afternoon. Shall see how it works.
Used 3ml for 2 pounds (120ml acetone to 10 grams). 2x bake at 210 for 12 min, 3rd bake at 220 then water drop and size to 358.
Pass tests ez.

If that still leads I have an order for the 35PB check maker and will just use pop can GCs on those with 2 coats of hitek, hopefully air cooled. If that works I won't need the GC.

Please send a picture of final coated projectile.

[Ausglock]

Done that, I have actually loaded some Berrys for range tomorrow as me run out of coating!!!
I hope the CAR is actually a good colour!

Yeah. it's not bad. I think you will like it. That is if Joe mixed it correctly......:kidding:

[kryogen]

The testing of the .358 triple coated water dropped after last bake at 220 projectiles was a success IMO.

Minimal leading after 50 rounds. There was SOME minor leading in the corners of the lands, but VERY minor. Just 2 little streaks. The rest of the barrel was clean.

(.357 2 thin coats was a complete and absolute lead beast).

I just ordered the pat marlins 35PB check maker and will just GC everything with thin aluminum.... that should take care of the rest of the leading.
I don't really have time to clean lead, and would rather clean my gun not so often, so I prefer to just add PB GCs when sizing, I have to size anyway so it's not really longer, and it will work I guess.

Will report once I have tested with GCs, but so far, really, it's quite decent.

I have a nice collection of nice colors to try.... so now that I have a load that works, I'll be good to cast a few thousands.

[Shotgundrums]

Well, great!!

[kryogen]

Plus, those nice 105 SWC take little lead, and punch nice and clean round holes in the paper.

[Gremlin460]

Yeah. it's not bad. I think you will like it. That is if Joe mixed it correctly......:kidding:

Well there is that aspect to consider...

[HI-TEK]

Well there is that aspect to consider...

What is not included in the "consider" aspect is, the constant need to change colour, increase this, add that, and after about 400 or so samples developed, in 6-12 months, it is getting quite overwhelming.
I have now at least 8 versions of Blue/Green, 8 versions of Zombie, 8 versions of Kryptonite, and, what makes it worse, is that we lose track of which one was preferred over another, and why.

Then, it has to be also considered, the ones who want Polka Dot, Candy striped, Red & White striped, Hot Pink, Cold Pink, Purple, Purple with gold stripes, Fluoro, Phosphorescent, glow in the dark, match my lipstick colour, and scarf colour, etc etc etc.

It is bewildering to say the least.
I only wish, that all demands could be met, but it simply does not work that way.

[Ausglock]

Whinge whinge...go take a few cold tablets and wash them down with your favorite poison.

[kweidner]

Joe I don't care what color you make. Just make sure you keep making it! We have too many people that love this product!

[Gremlin460]

What is not included in the "consider" aspect is, the constant need to change colour, increase this, add that, and after about 400 or so samples developed, in 6-12 months, it is getting quite overwhelming.
I have now at least 8 versions of Blue/Green, 8 versions of Zombie, 8 versions of Kryptonite, and, what makes it worse, is that we lose track of which one was preferred over another, and why.

Then, it has to be also considered, the ones who want Polka Dot, Candy striped, Red & White striped, Hot Pink, Cold Pink, Purple, Purple with gold stripes, Fluoro, Phosphorescent, glow in the dark, match my lipstick colour, and scarf colour, etc etc etc.

It is bewildering to say the least.
I only wish, that all demands could be met, but it simply does not work that way.

IMHO, you have a Great Bronze, Gold, Yellow that I have used personally. Stick to basic red/blue/yellow metalics and everyone else can either mix their own, of pay extra to have it mixed for them. Now for the Codral and Kentucky Idea Trev has.. sounds good.

[HI-TEK]

Joe I don't care what color you make. Just make sure you keep making it! We have too many people that love this product!


Kweidner & Gremlin
Thanks for vote of support.

I must say, my comments were not meant to end up as a whinge.
Unfortunately, it seems, that it may have appeared like it.

What hurt, is that I just had to destroy about 200-250 litres in total of all sorts of mixes, some that worked and others that did not.
Some went back many years, and information on them, was very unreliable at best.

I recall, years ago, that I made up the harder resin system, supplied it to a commercial caster (customer) and we arranged testing of coated projectiles in various guns, and captured them in Water tank made for the job, also for examination.
Out of about a dozen recipes, only one seemed to work, so I abandoned further work along the lines to develop a much more hard & durable coating.

Years later it was discovered, that the initial coating/baking process was rushed, not dried enough, and failures were directly due to poor bonding, and not from the coatings I made up..

It turned out, the single one that seemed to work, was in fact prepared hours earlier to all the rest, and was totally dried before being baked.
During testing, I was not aware of those facts.

I went back, and had a look at the mixtures I started to experiments/investigations, and, realised what went wrong. All resin systems then were reproduced, and they all passed with flying colours.

You can imagine my frustration when I realised why things failed with those tests, and those failures were based on circumstances I had no control or knowledge over.

I know Ausglock is a "tough" critic, but tests results, good or bad, can be relied upon, and will be quoted/reported as found.

But, no liquid drinking lubricant in sight. He is very tight....:kidding:

[Avenger442]

The 1035 Gold has been extensively tested in four of my guns and I'm happy!

[kryogen]

I am going to try gunmetal and gold next

[Ausglock]

I am going to try gunmetal and gold next

tested this yesterday. It went a very very dark green with the gold fleck. Looks OK and wipes and smashes fine.

Going to try Gunmetal and Red254 to see if I can get purple.

[kryogen]

I have experienced something tonight.

I cast some staight coww 2 days ago, air cooled. baked 3 coats, baked the last coat 220C for 12 min, then water dropped.

Some were sized immediately and loaded to shoot the next day. They were "relatively" easy to size. I didnt use any sizing lube. I noticed some scraping, but no bare metal. Load produced minimal leading, but still some leading (due to the scraping and thin coating because of the no lube sizing?)

Tonight, I tried for fun to size a batch that I didnt size yet. From approx 360 to 358. Bullets hardened for 2 days, so they were pretty much hardened. Tried no lube. Jammed mid way. Had to really really push on the handle to get it through, and I scraped the coating to the lead.

So, I sprayed some hornady one shot on the bullets, dried those with a heat gun, and proceeded to size. They were much easier, but still not easy. There were "some" scrape marks on the coating, but nothing went through, but I suspect that the coating is thinner in those spots.

So, what would be the best thing to do? Maybe cast, bake once, size while still soft with just one coat on, (and apply PB GC if needed), and then coat another time and dump into water for hardness? That way the 2nd coat would not be altered with the sizing?

I will try that load tomorrow if I can, but I would not be surprised to get some leading, because I am pretty sure that sizing those hard bullets with a so so lube thinned the coating somehow.

How do you guys do it? (with or without PB GC?)

(Oh, and I found my issue with oneshot. I wasnt using enough, and I wasnt drying it completely before sizing). What I did this time is apply enough to "wet" the brass all around (not soak...), then shake while drying with a heat gun. Takes 30 seconds, and you get the most slippery brass to size ever. Like butter. Now it really works really well.

[Shotgundrums]

Get the spray with ptfe. It works great. Plus nothing the potentially harm coating or adhesion of subsequent coats.

[kryogen]

Get the spray with ptfe. It works great. Plus nothing the potentially harm coating or adhesion of subsequent coats.

How would PTFE not alter adhesion with other coats, etc?

What brand is it? can I get it in canada?

[HI-TEK]

Kryogen,
Sizing should not remove any coating.
What sizing gear do you have? Please advise total details of sizing equipment.
If your sizing , has sharp cutting edges at any area, or projectile is not lined up correctly, this will shave alloy with coating.
This shaving being removed by sizing, then would wrongly indicate that you did not get bonding, but, if you examine shavings, one side is Silver and other side has coating.

If finished coating passes all smash tests, it should size OK and not be removed.

If you are using a Wax Lube type Sizer, and have possibly two or more projectiles contained in sizing area, I am not surprised at the difficulty you have with pushing alloy through it.

You should not require One Shot type lubes at all.

With hard alloys, using Aqualube 5000, diluted, should significantly reduce sizing loads.

Aqualube 5000 is a dry-film, non contaminating, non transferring lube, that can be applied with water dilutions or Denatured Alcohol dilutions of the concentrate, to coated and baked projectiles that are ready for sizing..

If you use various concoctions, of unknown composition as lubricants, my concern is that due to transfer contact, you may get contamination of surfaces that may eventually interfere with coating bonding.

I am getting a distinct impression that you are over thinking all this coating & sizing area.
It is simply, cast, coat, dry well, and bake adequately.
Water cool/quench if required, after last coat. Dry and size after adequate storage.
Record hardness of alloy.

It would be useful if you can advise details of sizing equipment, and as asked previously, photos of finished coated alloys, before and after sizing.

[Ausglock]

Have a look inside your sizer die. It should be mirror smooth. If it is scratching the coating, there must be imbedded rubbish in it.
Spin a rod with fine steelwool to clean it out.

Sizing without lube is normal and doesn't cause damage to the coating.

.360 down to .358 is doable without lube.

[Dystaxia]

Is the 1035 Gold available in powder form?

[HI-TEK]

How would PTFE not alter adhesion with other coats, etc?

What brand is it? can I get it in Canada?

Kryogen & Shotgundrums

The Aqualube 5000, is a water based low molecular weight Fluoro-Polymer concentrate.
It has no other "oily" carriers incorporated.
The Polymers used have particle size of about 0.01 to 0.05 micron range.
This material has been tested to determine that it does not affect subsequent applications/bonding of coatings, if specifically used as a lube to size after first coat.
It is available from Bayou in small packs and can be posted.

PTFE sprays per say, have suspended PTFE powders included in some sort of lubricating carrier like oils or Silicones.
The PTFE used in these products may have particles ranging from 1-60 micron sizes, but are generally in about 20-30 micron range.
The PTFE that is used in these type of products can be 100 times larger in size, compared to materials used in Aqualube 5000.
The "carriers" used in combination with the PTFE, lube sprays, aside from migration contamination, may also cause re-coating failures.

To assist with non transferring lubrication, you need a dry film non transferring non migrating non cross contaminating lubricant.

[HI-TEK]

Is the 1035 Gold available in powder form?


Yes, it is ex stock with Bayou.

[kryogen]

I use a lee push through sizer.
I'll post a pic of the scraped coat so you can see. It was so hard pushing it in that it kind of scraped....

[Avenger442]

Well Breville oven is not going to happen for now. Spent money on other gun stuff. But have a line on another convection oven that might be had for cheep.

Guys not familiar with slang word whinge? Is that what we Americans call a whiner?

kryogen
Had similar problem with my LEE push through sizer. I polished the inside with a metal polish and it removed problem. Sizing .312 down to .309. Lee bullet mold for bullet on left.

[HI-TEK]

Well Breville oven is not going to happen for now. Spent money on other gun stuff. But have a line on another convection oven that might be had for cheep.

Guys not familiar with slang word whinge?

Locally, you can get old household free standing oven/stoves for next to nil, from retailers selling new stuff.
They do the job well.
Most have fan forced heating and large enough insulated ovens.

[HI-TEK]

I use a lee push through sizer.
I'll post a pic of the scraped coat so you can see. It was so hard pushing it in that it kind of scraped....

From your descriptions, it is indicating to me that you were shaving off a layer of Lead, and that is why it was so hard with sizing loads.

[kryogen]

From your descriptions, it is indicating to me that you were shaving off a layer of Lead, and that is why it was so hard with sizing loads.

here is the "scraping".
No shaving, just "rubbing"
138021

And I REALLY had to push on that handle, as in I though that it would stay stuck.

[HI-TEK]

here is the "scraping".
No shaving, just "rubbing"
138021

And I REALLY had to push on that handle, as in I though that it would stay stuck.


Main observations.
1. Coating is not correct. May be not applied correctly, too rough, uneven, and may not be dried & baked adequately or mixture used was not mixed well before coating.
2. Where sizing wall was in contact, it removed tore off rough surfaces.
3. Lead alloy will cause drag loads as experienced when sizing.

[Shotgundrums]

Aqualube that's it couldn't remember it's name.
Because I had it on hand, I use DuPont Zonyl PTFE in 80% isopropyl, in a little spritz bottle (only when needed). It's 2 to 20 micron. Not .05, but works perfect. I only use it if needing substantial down-sizing.

[kryogen]

Main observations.
1. Coating is not correct. May be not applied correctly, too rough, uneven, and may not be dried & baked adequately or mixture used was not mixed well before coating.
2. Where sizing wall was in contact, it removed tore off rough surfaces.
3. Lead alloy will cause drag loads as experienced when sizing.

Well I did everything I could. That first coat was applied well mixed, from a 120ml pure acetone/20 grams bottle that was mixed a month ago or so. Well sealed. It usually dries 10 min on top of the oven, but this one dried for almost 24 hours in a heated garage with low humidity, so It was dry. It was applied 3ml to 2 pounds.

I don't get it.

[Ausglock]

here is the "scraping".
No shaving, just "rubbing"
138021

And I REALLY had to push on that handle, as in I though that it would stay stuck.
That the little 105SWC?
Look in the "lube grooves". you have far too much coating for the grooves to have that much coating in them.
These little pill have small grooves and the coating doesn't get in there when I make them.
Either use the same amount of coating with more bullets or use less coating.
I can push these through a lee sizer with 2 fingers on the press handle from .360 down to .356.

Have another think about the process.....

[Shotgundrums]

Could be a cure issue. Ausglock has mentioned time and again texture doesn't matter. If cured properly, the finish should have a burnished look to it after sizing. I mix up 20g/100ml as instructed, but after I place my bullets in the bucket, I shake the **** out of the bottle. It has a bullet or two in it as an agitator. I dribble the coating on immediately after shaking it. I even add a little squirt of acetone too. I tumble-coat by bullets just until the sound changes. My first coat is incredibly thin.

[popper]

it removed tore off rough surfaces Tumble with the top on, don't let the stuff dry until you dump it. Had trouble with that in the green tub, dried after last summer. I cleaned it out with acetone, toothbrush and a rag. I 'bounce' and roll around after dumping to make sure none stick to the mesh - causes small globs which then tear off when sizing. I add a tad of acetone to thin the mix for the first tumble so they stay slick. I apply 2 coats, size then a third & size again. Extra step but I don't lose a lot due to scraping.

[gunoil]

I use a lee push through sizer.
I'll post a pic of the scraped coat so you can see. It was so hard pushing it in that it kind of scraped....

You dont know what the hell you use. There is no such thing as a lee push thur sizer. If its a bullet sizer, polish it. And get the correct punch.

[gunoil]

l have a shirt.

[robertbank]

You dont know what the hell you use. There is no such thing as a lee push thur sizer. If its a bullet sizer, polish it. And get the correct punch.

Come on gunoil they are referred to as Lee push through sizing dies. You knew what he meant so your conclusion he didn't know what he was using was incorrect. BTW the contraction for through is thru. I know you know that, you just typed it wrong...you get a pass so does kryogen.

Take Care

Bob

[kryogen]

I did 3 coats.

[gunoil]

Ok show us scratch. Ive had scratches, just watch tv and polish and polish. If your gonna gc em, polish down in that die. If you have trouble gc'ing let me know. I'll help ya out, get a arbor press. Only 53$ L, one ton, 39$ for 1/2 ton. You will never again worry bout gc'ing and case base swaging 9mm or other pistol brass. Oh yea, get a pistol cartridge gage from midwayusa.com,, they have a 4 hole'er.

Have u tried store bought lead boolits?

robert, your in canada, l like festus hagen gunsmoke and slang of usa. Ain't gonna change, F the queen. Oh, forgot daniel boone.

[kryogen]

Oh well i will polish the sizer tomorrow and cast/ coat another batch of bullets.... Too bad i loaded 70, will probably shoot those anyway, its less trouble to clean some lead off the barrel than to pull 75 rounds with a hammer puller.

[kryogen]

Yeah, like 53$ in the us, and probably 250$ or so if I can find one around here......

[robertbank]

Not to mention postage and handling. The press is probably made in China so you will have duty to pay for it as well.

Kryogen it seems you have problems with your mixing, Get that right and 99.9% of your problems will be solved. Raining all week over here. I may go for it despite the rain. I guess if I live in a rain forest I should expect rain.

gunoil is into chasing 86 year old Queens I guess, as he seems to want to make passionate love to our Queen. I guess if they mate with trees down there it would seem appropriate to find old ladies attractive. I am assuming the slang used down there means the same thing as it does up here.;-)

Take Care

Bob

[Gremlin460]

For those with sizing problems...

Trev has explained he can size down with no real issue and he sizes more than I do.

I cast from a 358 mold that has had the begezzus polished out of it, it drops at near 359 now.
I tumble 800 casts in a square container for 90 seconds @ 50RPM this cleans any flashing off.
I coat one thin coat.
Bake
Size to 358
recoat
bake
resize at 358 again (this polishes the coating nice and smooth)
toss into 2000 lot containers.
If I load for my beretta 92 I just load as they are
if I load for a 1911 pro I resize to 356 again loosing NO coating.

Everything hinges on your very first coat. That is the most important step.

[220]

What barrel mfr? I'd send that barrel back, express your findings.

Factory barrel on a norinco 9mm 1911.

Had a play with it again yesterday with a new plain base mould.
6:2:92 3 coats gold sized 357 and 358.
From listed start load 2.5gr to 0.1gr under max in 0.2gr increasements with AP50. Crohnographed them all to see how velocity stacked up against the book data. Velocities were almost spot on the book values so Im guessing pressures as well, which are listed as 19k-32k psi.
Fired 10 of each size and charge, 2 dry patches and inspected for leading each 10, nothing obvious until I got to 2.9gr and then what I would put down to gas cutting about 1/2 - 2/3 of the way down the barrel. Both 357 & 358 showed the same at 2.9 & 3.1gr after 10 shots.

Not surprised both sizes leaded as they are being swaged down to .3555 and then need to bump back up to nearly .357.
The lack of lead with the lighter charges surprised me, 40 shots with nothing more than dry patches looks promising.
Going to load up some more and shoot a match this weekend (65 shots) it will be the real test. Expect some leading but as long as it doesn't get bad enough to cause a loss of accuracy before 65 shots I will have another option besides GC.
Velocity isn't a problem for the match as I only need 500fps with a 120gr boolit to meet power factor and the starting loads were 840fps and functioned fine with 10lb spring.

[kweidner]

1 to 1.5 tsp per 5 lbs gives me best results. I usually use 1 then 1.5 and 1.5.

[Gremlin460]

1 to 1.5 tsp per 5 lbs gives me best results. I usually use 1 then 1.5 and 1.5.

OK Ken, During your 3 coat procces , when do you size?

PS my grandma saved spoons, I know TS come in a million sizes.. pour your TS into a 5ml syringe and tell us how much you are actually using. Cause all syringes world wide are the same :D

[kweidner]

5ml is a tsp on my measuring cup. 7.5 ml is 1.5. LOL.

I use the little medicine cups from pharmacy. They have both.

[Ausglock]

Too little coating for the first coat is far better than too much.
But... having said that. It really take a huge amount of coating for the first coat to stuff it up.

I do not measure, I guess my dribble when I coat. Never fails.
Even with all the experimental coating, I dribble. And they nearly all work.

My club has a Noricco 9mm for a club gun. I have run a heap of my 124rn, 135RN, 105SWC etc through it with zero issues.

[kryogen]

1 to 1.5 tsp per 5 lbs gives me best results. I usually use 1 then 1.5 and 1.5.

thats exactly 1ml per pound, then 1.5ml per pound. I did 1.5 per pound 3x.
I could do 1ml per pound x3 instead?

[gunoil]

Dint spin what i say roberto!

Kry, u can find a nice arbor on ebay cheap or just keep trolling and complaining.

[kweidner]

thats exactly 1ml per pound, then 1.5ml per pound. I did 1.5 per pound 3x.
I could do 1ml per pound x3 instead?


Yes unless it is higher pressure round. I use the 1.5 formula on 9 and 40. as promised here are the HP 300 blackouts Yesterday I swaged all day. Made 220s, 168 and 155RBT .308.

138106

138107
138108

[popper]

Didn't see the grooved version on your web site - crimp groove - pretty big groove, it's a weak spot? How much is in the case? Did you try the Cu to reduce the petals breaking off - or does it make a difference?

[robertbank]

Gremlin460 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?32109-Gremlin460)
I watched your excellent video on youtube. Where did you get tha dispensing container you mix your liquid in and then draw with your syringe? I am in search of same over here. I may try Canaidian Tire or Walmart today. It looks like we have rain here for yet another week and it is getting frustrating. I may just go for it tomorrow. The bullets may require more drying time and I can always set up a drying table in the garage and leave the doors open.

Take Care

Bob

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/statusicon/user-offline.png

[popper]

Used 1ml/# 2x yesterday, cooked 385F for 10 min., dried under a fan for 1 hr. Turned a little darker than I'd seen before. Sized 310 and lost coating on some, usually around the base band. No hard force required to size. Had this problem before due to bad(?) sizer stem - took the coating off the same side every time. Yes, I've polished the sizer. Possible flaked stuff is catching in the sizer and scraping the next? Guess I'll order some of the lube to try. Thinking of drying on one rack & cooking on another - won't have to choreboy the rack to make it smooth anymore. I did mix some more of the gold and saw a dark sediment at the bottom of the container - normal? When it works it's great but I haven't got it perfected yet. Any advice from you pros?

[kweidner]

Didn't see the grooved version on your web site - crimp groove - pretty big groove, it's a weak spot? How much is in the case? Did you try the Cu to reduce the petals breaking off - or does it make a difference?

Popper you are correct. The prototype has a crimp groove. My production molds do not. After many months of trials, I decided it was not needed. When I did them up for the magma, I left them off.

[gunoil]

Kryogen, heres a arbor on ebay.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-TON-HEAVY-DUTY-ARBOR-PRESS-PRESSES-ASSEMBLY-LEVER-/330564308578?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf72b0e62

Size away or gas check too if wanted.

I use old lee loadmastet 5 hole die plate with bolt&washers down in the hole that came in press, I just tapped it.

l even dropped in a old star die to size 45.

You also have the only press to case base swage because of leverage, You can buy the 1ton ,, l did.

http://i1113.photobucket.com/albums/k511/putt2012/0B01B5B0-6E6C-4871-9A48-2A9F8A24D0CD_zpscde0bmeo.jpg (http://s1113.photobucket.com/user/putt2012/media/0B01B5B0-6E6C-4871-9A48-2A9F8A24D0CD_zpscde0bmeo.jpg.html)

I cut the other end off all lee dies up to the thread area so l can screw em in from the top like seen in pic above. Just spin around and tighten tall bolt u see in photo.

-------------------------------

[Ausglock]

Hey Slick.
Is the end of the ram threaded or did you drill and tap it?

[gunoil]

piece of double sided tape l keep a roll layin round. I had custom punch machined from websterz ,, fits pointy nose 115gr or round nose flat. Bloody tape works great.

I put a olde long rcbs lever on it and tossed the one that came w/it. I set and let lever hang down so l just push it forward. Easy on hand and shoulder and lots of power force when case base swaging a 9mm brass.

l cart gage all my pistol ammo.

[Gremlin460]

Gremlin460 (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?32109-Gremlin460)
I watched your excellent video on youtube. Where did you get tha dispensing container you mix your liquid in and then draw with your syringe? I am in search of same over here. I may try Canaidian Tire or Walmart today. It looks like we have rain here for yet another week and it is getting frustrating. I may just go for it tomorrow. The bullets may require more drying time and I can always set up a drying table in the garage and leave the doors open.

Take Care

Bob

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/images/statusicon/user-offline.png

Very wobbly video here Bob.. will do a better one now my powder HT has arrived.

http://s881.photobucket.com/user/Gremlin460/media/VIDEO0020_zps0bf060e4.mp4.html?sort=3&o=61

[Gremlin460]

Thank you Joe!... cant stop got coating to mix!!!!!

[HI-TEK]

Thank you Joe!... cant stop got coating to mix!!!!!

Were there any surprises in parcel?

[kryogen]

Kryogen, heres a arbor on ebay.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-TON-HEAVY-DUTY-ARBOR-PRESS-PRESSES-ASSEMBLY-LEVER-/330564308578?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf72b0e62

Oh, how nice. USPS priority shipping to quebec is 100$ + 10$ duty
That's 171$ CAN delivered for that press. (1/2 ton)

You know what, at that price, I'll pass.

I'll have to find one in canada, or even better, locally, to have any chance at a "decent" price, meaning probably 100-150$ for a one ton.
Forget shipping from the usa, unless it's very small and light, and even then....
Ebay is only good if it's direct from china. I never order from the usa, it costs too much shipping.
Shipping from china is often free. Shipping from the usa is around 30-60$ usually.

Best I found online so far is this: http://www.busybeetools.com/products/arbor-press-1-ton.html 90$ CAN
Shipping is 13$ CAN

COuld get for around 100, not too bad. But I'll call locally and check, might be the same price, or not.

[gunoil]

"kry" Theres one near you, There are 7 pages on ebay. Have u looked? Sure some of them are from china. Do u guys have craigs list in that third world country?