30 Govt

[Patrick56]

Found on a sale an old mold marked 30Govt. Seems that it was made by Winchester. I think that it makes less than 100 gr bullets. Is it made for the old 30-40 Krag- Jorgensen? The strange thing is that there is no groove for lube. I would like to try this out in my 30-30 Winchester 94. Is it OK to use the Lee lube?

[Andrew Mason]

Pictures of the mold or bullet?
Sounds like an interesting mold,

As far as I know the 30 government is the 30-40 Craig

[Patrick56]

Here is some pictures7438574386
Bullet weight is appr. 100gr

[MtGun44]

.30-40 Krag = .30 Gov't

Bill

[texassako]

I bet it would work fine with LLA or 45/45/10. I wonder if it was designed to just be dipped in lube, similar to the old external lubricated, heeled centerfires or rimfires.

[Andrew Mason]

Looks like it would be a fun bullet for a 30 carbine

If you decide to let it go,
Let me know.

[runfiverun]

looks like someone removed the lube groove.
they might have been making tubing bullets or paper patching.

[Patrick56]

I know that Ideal made moulds for "gallery boolits", but the ones that I've seen had GGs. I don't recall having ever seen a Winchester mould in that caliber.

I think Winchester made at least the model 1895 in the caliber 30-40. I recall Teddy Roosevelt used one in Africa 1909 during his hunting trip over there.

[John Allen]

The winchester 1895 was available in 30 Gov't aka 30-40 craig. I have takedown one from 1912

[skeettx]

This appears to be a National Guard Armory bullet.
The Guard cast up light bullets to be shot indoors in their Armorys
at reducted velocities.
That was a different time!!!
Mike

p.s. Ideal made many cavity moulds and called them Armory Moulds

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103080-Ideal-308280-8-Cavity-Armory-Mould

[Patrick56]

This appears to be a National Guard Armory bullet.
The Guard cast up light bullets to be shot indoors in their Armorys
at reducted velocities.
That was a different time!!!
Mike


p.s. Ideal made many cavity moulds and called them Armory Moulds

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?103080-Ideal-308280-8-Cavity-Armory-Mould

This mold is a single cavity and the ogive is more rounded than the National Guard indoor bullets?

[Kansas Ed]

I collect 1895 Winchesters, there is often a lot of confusion about the markings.

In the 1895 Winchesters, 30-40 Krag was marked either 30US, 30Army or 30 US Army: (The reason that the Krag wasn't designated as Govt, was that only the Army adopted the cartridge, the Navy did not.) Madis confirms this.

30-03 was marked 30 Govt. '03

30-06 was marked 30 Govt. '06

While Wikipedia may indicate the contrary on that nomenclature, NONE of the cited sources at Wiki support the 30Govt designation for the 30-40 (and I have checked all of them, some editions varying). If someone could produce a box of ammunition from that era with both a 30 Govt and a 30-40 designation on it I would be very interested to see it, as I am always on the lookout for evidence to the contrary.

If it's marked 30 Govt. I would assume that it's a mould for the 30-03 or 30-06.

Ed

[MtGun44]

Krag not Craig.

Billl

[3006guns]

Krag not Craig.

Billl

Surely you've heard of Kragslist..............

[Patrick56]

Forgot to say that beside that 30Govt there is a S.R stamped. Maybe the manufacturer?

[rintinglen]

The S.R. stands for short range. The similarity between the Ideal and Winchester molds in the early 20th century is too close to be coincedental, I suspect that John Barlow and company made both. If so, it would explain the "30 Gov"t" marking. Ideal used that marking to denote the 30-40.

PS I believe that your mold was altered somewhere along the line. There is at least one grease groove on every original non-roundball Winchester mold I have seen.

[Dan Cash]

You might reference .30-06 applications as, I believe, .30 Govt refers to the .30-03/06. .30 U.S or .30 Army is .30-40 Krag.

[Patrick56]

rintinglen, I found the same explanation in a story about Lyman / Ideal molds from 1900. It seems that you are right about the missing groove. Will try it with Lee Alox bullet lube, still searching for a "gallery load" using Vihtavuori powder.

[skeettx]

What caliber are you wanting a gallery load for? 30-30 Right?
What Vihtavuori powder?

http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17776

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?198613-Vihtavuori-loads-for-cast-bullets

REMINDER: the bullet above is not flatnosed and may not be the best bullet for
Win 94 Magazine tubes.
I would single load this bullet

Mike

[Patrick56]

Hi Skeetex! Thank you for the link. I have N340 and N110 that I have used in my 25-20 ( and 38/357, 44mag loads) N130 for the 7x57, 30-30 and .458Win mag. For the moment out of N140 used in 7,62x53R ( 7,62x54). The Forum got me convinced that BL(C)-2 is prone to detonation so I leave it to the 160 FTX bullets.

[Dutchman]

I collect 1895 Winchesters, there is often a lot of confusion about the markings.

In the 1895 Winchesters, 30-40 Krag was marked either 30US, 30Army or 30 US Army: (The reason that the Krag wasn't designated as Govt, was that only the Army adopted the cartridge, the Navy did not.) Madis confirms this.

30-03 was marked 30 Govt. '03

30-06 was marked 30 Govt. '06

While Wikipedia may indicate the contrary on that nomenclature, NONE of the cited sources at Wiki support the 30Govt designation for the 30-40 (and I have checked all of them, some editions varying). If someone could produce a box of ammunition from that era with both a 30 Govt and a 30-40 designation on it I would be very interested to see it, as I am always on the lookout for evidence to the contrary.

If it's marked 30 Govt. I would assume that it's a mould for the 30-03 or 30-06.

Ed

2nd from left: WRA Co .30 US G

http://images53.fotki.com/v1521/photos/2/28344/3886627/30_40a-vi.jpg

a little better image
http://images50.fotki.com/v1569/photos/2/28344/3886627/c021-vi.jpg

http://images50.fotki.com/v1514/photos/2/28344/3886627/c020-vi.jpg

[MtGun44]

I stand corrected, and learned something here today.

Thanks.

Bill

[dg31872]

If you need loob groves for this slug, just contact Waksupi, I think he is a dealer.

[Patrick56]

If you need loob groves for this slug, just contact Waksupi, I think he is a dealer.
Thank you for the hint, I think I will try to press the bullet against a single cut file to make small "rifling" to hold Alox lube. :wink:

[Kansas Ed]

Dutch, thanks for the photo. That is the first evidence I have ever seen which places the "Government" marker to the 30-40. Question: In your stand up photo, which cartridge is the one with the USG marking? I would also like to see any 1895 rifle marked 30 Government which is the 28" barrel length. That would contradict Madis, and while Madis is generally considered the authority, there have been some instances where his information was incorrect. Have any photo's of such?

Thanks Again,
Ed

[Patrick56]

Ok! Here is the bullet ready for testing!Tried it over 0,5 grams (7,71gr) of N340 and it went straight trough a 2 inch dry wooden plank.75038

[Dutchman]

Dutch, thanks for the photo. That is the first evidence I have ever seen which places the "Government" marker to the 30-40. Question: In your stand up photo, which cartridge is the one with the USG marking? I would also like to see any 1895 rifle marked 30 Government which is the 28" barrel length. That would contradict Madis, and while Madis is generally considered the authority, there have been some instances where his information was incorrect. Have any photo's of such?

Thanks Again,
Ed

The one on the right with the round nose soft point.

The only 1895 Winchester I ever owned was .30-06 take-down, late production.

Dutch