45 Colt Min Load H110/W296

[jonp]

To answer the first comment that will follow this post: Yes I have a loading manual.

There is a ton of data on loading the 45 Colt Blackhawk. I have read Linebaughs article on it, http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/dissolving_the_myth.htm, and found it very interesting. I have tried nearing the top load with 25.5gr H110 under a 255gr lswc and found that to be all I cared for and won't really do that high loading again as I can't think of a reason why I would need to do that.

My question is about minimum loadings. Is there a min loading that people have gone down to that is below published data much like Linebaughs over max loadings? I am interested in saving some powder and getting a reference point from the reloaders on here who have done this.

I am using a 255gr lswc boolit and will use H110/W296 in my Ruger 7.5in BlackHawk.

[btroj]

2400. Buy some

[Tatume]

H110 and W296 aren't good choices for reduced loads. If you don't want maximum performance, then an alternate choice of powder is appropriate.

As the fellow above suggested, 2400 is a good choice. Another good choice is Unique. Either one will allow you to run your 255 gr boolit at around 1000 fps in the Ruger Blackhawk.

[Jupiter7]

H110/296 is somewhat position sensitive and best used at higher density. For "light" loads, it's unique and bullseye and usually lighter boolits.

Question: if you worked up to Linebaugh's max, where'd you start? I guess the better question is what you're trying to accomplish?

[sundog]

For minimum loadings check the loads for cowboy action shooting. Personal preference is Green Dot and Red Dot with 200 and 255 grain RNFL. Great plinking rounds.

[jonp]

2400. Buy some
I have a few pounds of 2400 I bought specifically for the BH in higher loadings but I had such good luck with Max loads using H110 when I saw some in stock I bought 4lbs. I understand that H110/W296 does not react well to downloading and 2400 is more versitile in load range so should have made clear that I can work up target loads with Red Dot, 231, Unique, etc..that is not a problem as I have all of these on my shelf. I am interested in a min, reliable loading using H110/W296 that will result in a stable loading. ie: a floor using this powder.

The question arose out of my curiosity. If he has a Max above the published data that is safe with BH is there a stable loading guys are using under the published data from the companies? This is just a question only and my W296 is going to be saved for hunting, max loads. I might fiddle a little with it "just to see" but I have a lot of cheaper powder to burn for plinking than h110/w296

BTW: "2400 buy some" is not helpful information.

[jonp]

H110/296 is somewhat position sensitive and best used at higher density. For "light" loads, it's unique and bullseye and usually lighter boolits.

Question: if you worked up to Linebaugh's max, where'd you start? I guess the better question is what you're trying to accomplish?

I started 10% under his starting load and worked up. By my calc using the 255gr boolit I was still under his max loading but stopped where I was as that was enough for me.

[jonp]

For minimum loadings check the loads for cowboy action shooting. Personal preference is Green Dot and Red Dot with 200 and 255 grain RNFL. Great plinking rounds.

I have a good cowboy load sheet and my preferred powder for plinking using a 200gr lswc and others is Red Dot as I have 16lbs of it and have good luck.

[btroj]

My understanding is that 110/296 wouldn't be reduced more than 3 to 5 percent from MAX.

Those are powders for max loading only. If you want 80 percent throttle then 2400 is the way to go.

[2ndAmendmentNut]

Another good powder for light loads is Trail Boss.

[Moonie]

I like moderate charges of Unique for the light loads in 45 Colt but I have a convertible NMBH so usually if I want a light load I use the 45acp cylinder.

[DougGuy]

For minimum loadings check the loads for cowboy action shooting. Personal preference is Green Dot and Red Dot with 200 and 255 grain RNFL. Great plinking rounds.

The OP's question isn't about red dot or green dot or other people's pet loads. His question was about going below minimum recommended charge weights with H110.

The answer is a resounding NO. I just went through the same thing looking for a medium velocity load for deer, and my research and the opinions of several long time reloaders and forum members here showed that charges below minimum with H110 could be dangerous and unpredictable. I had a 260gr LSWCHP-GC boolit, the same boolit that Buffalo Bore loads in their "Deer Grenade" ammo, and I found that charges below 19gr were not recommended because at this level, the case capacity overcomes the 75% load density ratio and things get unsafe below that amount with slow burning powder.

The problem centers on the large case capacity of the .45 Colt. Say the inside of the case is.440" in diameter, and you have a powder charge exposed to the flash of the primer that is up against the flash hole, only a certain area of powder is started burning at one given time, which allows the flame front to spread through the charge in an even manner. This would be considered normal ignition. Now, take a lesser charge weight of powder, and it is laying along the bottom of the case, below the flash hole, there is more than double the amount of powder granules now exposed to the primer flash, and a LOT more powder begins to burn at the same time. You could have erratic ignition, an extreme pressure spike, and an unsafe and unpredictable situation within the case. This is the chief danger in downloading H110, and the reason that most say do NOT download this powder below minimum charge weight.

I found that 2400 and also LilGun were safe and delivered the velocity I needed without running the inherent risk of venturing outside published load data for a given load.

Also, without steering this thread, there is a void in load data for the mid level of .45 Colt that needs to be mentioned. Some have divided the power levels of this cartridge by the pressure ceilings of the guns chambered for it, which is kind of a good thing. So far the load manuals haven't really taken it to task to develop or document this too much, and only a few of the gun writers have done it.

It goes something like this..

Tier 1, original Colt SAA, S&W, SAA clones, pressure ceiling of 14,000psi which is SAAMI spec for the caliber.

Tier 2, this is the gray area, but guns rated for pressures such as .45 ACP +P like the Ruger New Vaquero, New Model Flattop, 23,000psi. There is not now and not likely to be a SAAMI spec in this pressure range, because there are too many old guns that are NOT SAFE with this ammo and too much chance of someone blowing up a gun that can only handle the original SAAMI spec of 14,000psi.

Tier 3, this is the upward end of .45 Colt, Ruger original Vaquero, Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, Redhawk, T/C, Freedom Arms, etc, pressure ceiling of 30,000psi
_________________________

To download H110, you venture into that Tier 2 pressure range where there is not very much load data at all, regardless of boolit weight and powder, and Tier 2 pressure levels are plenty doable, just with powder other than H110. I have good results with LilGun and 2400, they are accurate and safe and great to shoot. These are plenty stout for hunting deer and bear, but definitely NOT SAFE for use in guns only rated for Tier 1 pressure. Herco works well for this, Unique falls just above it's max recommended charge for Tier 2 and is not a good choice. Trail Boss may work well, Titegroup, there are other powders and I am sure you will get equally as many recommendations for powder. I just tried to keep my reply aimed at the OP's original question instead of turning the thread into the "What powder for .45 Colt" for the umpteenth time..

[bhn22]

Red Dots a superb powder for std velocity 45 Colt loads. I think 6 gr of Red Dot would even be good on corn flakes. From the above posts, I'm sure you got the idea that 296/H110 doesn't work well with reduced loads, and that is why there is simply no data for it. It has a very narrow band of case volume tolerance.

[RobS]

I use Winchester primers with H110/296 most of the time however once you start on the minimum charges then looking at a magnum primer will help keep the ignition more consistent that is as long as you have good boolit tension. I personally wouldn't go much if any under 23.5 grains with a lead 255 SWC. I don't know where you live so in addition to boolit tension and a mag primer, ambient temperatures plays into this as well if you are shooting in cold temps vs warmer ones. When you start down loading H110/296 be prepared to bring with you a dowel to drive out a lodged boolit from the barrel. While testing, make sure each slug makes it out the end of the barrel.

[jonp]

The OP's question isn't about red dot or green dot or other people's pet loads. His question was about going below minimum recommended charge weights with H110.

The answer is a resounding NO. I just went through the same thing looking for a medium velocity load for deer, and my research and the opinions of several long time reloaders and forum members here showed that charges below minimum with H110 could be dangerous and unpredictable. I had a 260gr LSWCHP-GC boolit, the same boolit that Buffalo Bore loads in their "Deer Grenade" ammo, and I found that charges below 19gr were not recommended because at this level, the case capacity overcomes the 75% load density ratio and things get unsafe below that amount with slow burning powder.

The problem centers on the large case capacity of the .45 Colt. Say the inside of the case is.440" in diameter, and you have a powder charge exposed to the flash of the primer that is up against the flash hole, only a certain area of powder is started burning at one given time, which allows the flame front to spread through the charge in an even manner. This would be considered normal ignition. Now, take a lesser charge weight of powder, and it is laying along the bottom of the case, below the flash hole, there is more than double the amount of powder granules now exposed to the primer flash, and a LOT more powder begins to burn at the same time. You could have erratic ignition, an extreme pressure spike, and an unsafe and unpredictable situation within the case. This is the chief danger in downloading H110, and the reason that most say do NOT download this powder below minimum charge weight.

I found that 2400 and also LilGun were safe and delivered the velocity I needed without running the inherent risk of venturing outside published load data for a given load.

Also, without steering this thread, there is a void in load data for the mid level of .45 Colt that needs to be mentioned. Some have divided the power levels of this cartridge by the pressure ceilings of the guns chambered for it, which is kind of a good thing. So far the load manuals haven't really taken it to task to develop or document this too much, and only a few of the gun writers have done it.

It goes something like this..

Tier 1, original Colt SAA, S&W, SAA clones, pressure ceiling of 14,000psi which is SAAMI spec for the caliber.

Tier 2, this is the gray area, but guns rated for pressures such as .45 ACP +P like the Ruger New Vaquero, New Model Flattop, 23,000psi. There is not now and not likely to be a SAAMI spec in this pressure range, because there are too many old guns that are NOT SAFE with this ammo and too much chance of someone blowing up a gun that can only handle the original SAAMI spec of 14,000psi.

Tier 3, this is the upward end of .45 Colt, Ruger original Vaquero, Blackhawk, Super Blackhawk, Redhawk, T/C, Freedom Arms, etc, pressure ceiling of 30,000psi
_________________________

To download H110, you venture into that Tier 2 pressure range where there is not very much load data at all, regardless of boolit weight and powder, and Tier 2 pressure levels are plenty doable, just with powder other than H110. I have good results with LilGun and 2400, they are accurate and safe and great to shoot. These are plenty stout for hunting deer and bear, but definitely NOT SAFE for use in guns only rated for Tier 1 pressure. Herco works well for this, Unique falls just above it's max recommended charge for Tier 2 and is not a good choice. Trail Boss may work well, Titegroup, there are other powders and I am sure you will get equally as many recommendations for powder. I just tried to keep my reply aimed at the OP's original question instead of turning the thread into the "What powder for .45 Colt" for the umpteenth time..

Thanks for the USEFUL and on topic answer. The reason I seem to prefer H110/W296 for upper range loadings is that the recoil seems to be less sharp to me than using high-range 2400. Maybe it's just me but its more of a push than a sharp crack which would indicate a lower pressure and less of a spike I would think.

I don't want this to descend on a "favorite loading/what powder" thread on the Colt as there is volumes of threads here and elsewhere. My question, I thought, was rather specific. I have been loading Magnums for a few years but this is my first 45 Colt.

[DougGuy]

You're welcome.. I have been loading the magnum end of .45 Colt for years and love it. I use a LOT of H110, but also am starting to use newer powders like LilGun and for the life of me find that it is quite accurate, not as sharply recoiling, and dang if it isn't a keeper! There is a whole nother group of threads from using LilGun in Freedom Arms guns, it burns hot, erodes barrels, etc, but at the levels I will use it in .45 Colt, I seriously doubt that it will become a problem in a Ruger. You should try some.

I am looking to try some Trail Boss. I want one of the Ruger Talo edition Vaqueros on the medium frame in .45 ACP so I can ream the cylinder out and use .45 Schofield brass and develop a bona fide Tier 2 pistol for 23,000psi pressure ceiling. It will allow me to use any of the typical boolits associated with .45 Colt and any style crimp, but at a pleasant level of punishment, and not have to headspace on the case mouth. It would be a .45 Ruger Special, or a .45 Schofield +P.

[btroj]

H110 is great in a 45 Colt, if you want to load it to 100 percent. That is all that powder is useful for. Very specialized powder.

2400 will work well in the 70 to 90 percent loading realm.

Below that almost anything works.

My suggestion is to keep the H110 load where it is and use them when you want that level of "power".

It all depends on what you want velocity wise.

[jonp]

H110 is great in a 45 Colt, if you want to load it to 100 percent. That is all that powder is useful for. Very specialized powder.

2400 will work well in the 70 to 90 percent loading realm.

Below that almost anything works.

My suggestion is to keep the H110 load where it is and use them when you want that level of "power".

It all depends on what you want velocity wise.

Indeed, that is what I bought 4lbs of W296 this week for. Max or near max loadings. I am using the Promo for target loads and am happy with it I was just curious as to what others on this sight may have already tried and the results. Some use strain gauges and the like and may have fooled with this.

[btroj]

I have loaded my BH in 45 Colt with a small range of loads. Say the max is 25 gr, I would start at 23.5 and go up from there. If it was a powder like 2400 I might go down to 21.

Keep within 3 to 5 percent of max and you should be fine.

Weak case tension and crimp will also cause you grief.

[MtGun44]

Hodgdon says 23.5 of H110 is the starting load for 260 JHP.

Bill

[jonp]

Hodgdon says 23.5 of H110 is the starting load for 260 JHP.

Bill

yes, I checked their site. I was interested in whether someone here had deviated from this as we are all "tinkerer's" and can't seem to leave well enough alone in trying something else just to see what if.
Powder companies are very conservative for good reason.

[WHEELGUNHUNTER]

I've been shooting 250 grain xtp over 21 grain of h110. Pretty accurate actually. I don't remember what company bit is but one of my books shows this load at 1200 fps. I will look later when j get a chance. I was under the impression that the problem with light h110 loads is that the powder has the chance of getting too far away from the primer and can cause a squib. I hadn't heard about there being too much powder exposed to the primer. Not saying it isn't true, just saying I hadn't heard that.

[paul h]

While conventional wisdom holds that going with a lighter load must be safer and lower pressure, that does not always apply and especially with H-110/W-296. Reducing H-110 starting loads can lead to blowing up a gun, and has done so many times over the decades. Hence it is highly unwise to tinker with going lower. It has nothing to do with being overly conservative. H-110 is a powder that has a heavy deterrent coating and is difficult to ignite, you need to use a magnum primer and a bullet with good neck tension and a firm crimp.

H-110 is a superb powder for accurate full power loads in large bore handguns, but that is its ONLY use for large bore handguns. It has a nice linear velocity rise and no bad habbits when used as it should be.

If you want to throttle down your loads, then choose a different powder, plane and simple. Unique is superb for accurate 700-1000 fps loads. If you're looking for 1000-1200 fps, then 2400 is superb. If you want 1200+ fps, go with H-110.

[Lefty SRH]

I used HS-6 for lower end Ruger "Only" loads. H110 is better suited for upper end .45 colt loads.

[WHEELGUNHUNTER]

I will look up that published data and let you know which book lists 21 grn of h110 for a 250 grn slug. It still has a fairly stiff kick but nothing like loading it with 26 grains. It was far more consistent grouping than the 20.8 grns of 2400 I was using for comparison. Don't anybody try it if you think its wrong and maybe best to wait till I get home to verify in case I'm wrong, but I'm pretty surtain I didn't dream this load up. If I am remembering correctly, then who can we trust if we can't trust the published reloading data? It has good trajectory also. Dead on at 30 paces, few inches high at 50ish, right back on at 70ish. Not sure about 90......didn't try it.

[35remington]

Many people rightly caution against loading H110/296 in lighter than full power loads, but fail to mention all the circumstances where the "inadvisable to load light" warning comes in.

Problems are most likely to occur with a combination of not only powder and bullet but in actuality powder, bullet, case and gun:

Cases that have a light powder charge.

Cases that have light bullet pull and little to no crimp.

Cylinders with large throats and possibly a rough forcing cone. All these contribute to problems in loading H110/W296.

Here it is not so much the case is partially filled and "overignition" of the powder is a problem. That sounds "trendy" but that's not the real issue or the major contributing factor. The issue is that the pressure never gets high until the bullet becomes nearly immobile, and an immobile bullet is not part of the planned loading parameters in producing a safely functioning round.

Rather:

A primer pushes the bullet out of the case at relatively low pressure due to lack of case grip and crimp, combined with a low powder charge in many instances (light charges darn sure don't help!). A cylinder with large throats allows the bullet to proceed forward more easily and the chemical reaction proceeds at low pressure, as the conditions to allow proper pressure rise and combustion of the powder do not exist. The bullet goes forward until it hits the forcing cone and stops.......and then, by dint of the fact that the bullet is now essentially plugging the barrel cylinder gap and now has considerable resistance to forward travel (which is higher than orginally planned) the powder burn gets back to going again and the gun acts like it has an obstruction.

Higher pressures and possibly damaged guns result. If the bullet had some resistance to initial movement while in the cylinder the pressures will build to a safe but higher level, the bullet will transit the cylinder and forcing cone without obstruction and stoppage, and the bullet will exit the barrel at normal pressures.

The key is to ensure the pressure never stays low for an extended period of time. The way to ensure this is to follow the manufacturer's recommendations as to high bullet pull and heavier powder charges.

All this is well documented; overignition of the powder isn't the issue. If it was so, all powders would produce blowups as the charge was lessened.....but 2400 doesn't blow up guns with lighter charges, does it? Too little resistance to bullet movement, initial movement at very low pressures and the plugging of the barrel/cylinder gap are the issues. Recall the manufacturer advises high bullet pull.........getting and maintaining high pressures as the bullet leaves the case and transits the barrel/cylinder gap (so it does not stop!) are the reasons why. That, combined with reasonable powder charges, will keep you out of trouble.

[45-70 Chevroner]

I use Winchester primers with H110/296 most of the time however once you start on the minimum charges then looking at a magnum primer will help keep the ignition more consistent that is as long as you have good boolit tension. I personally wouldn't go much if any under 23.5 grains with a lead 255 SWC. I don't know where you live so in addition to boolit tension and a mag primer, ambient temperatures plays into this as well if you are shooting in cold temps vs warmer ones. When you start down loading H110/296 be prepared to bring with you a dowel to drive out a lodged boolit from the barrel. While testing, make sure each slug makes it out the end of the barrel.
+1. loading H110/296 with less than minimum published load "can and probably will" cause stuck boolits in the bore. Go with with some of the mentioned powders, I like Unique and Red Dot, 7 grs of either one works great for informal shooting. You mentioned that you can't leave it alone, you have read enough here with words of caution. I would leave it alone!!!!!!

[WHEELGUNHUNTER]

Speer shows loading data for 250 grain GDHP using H110 powder.....starting load using 19 grains moving 1091FPS, max load 21 grains moving 1200 FPS. That is published data from Speer. If anyone thinks it is unsafe to use, I guess don't use it. I really doubt Speer is gonna risk the law suit of publishing unsafe data. I say load it, shoot, and enjoy......

[WHEELGUNHUNTER]

Sierra shows starting load for 240 grain with 21.1 grains of 296, max 25 grains.

[WHEELGUNHUNTER]

Speer has 260 grain starting at 18.5 with H110.

[WHEELGUNHUNTER]

Where did all the nay sayers go? Lol

[35remington]

You didn't post anything that made it necessary to comment. None of those loads you listed are light loads.

[jonp]

Still rolling along! I was just wondering if someone had tried downloading the powder. I burn plenty of unique and promo with target loads. Still no hard data just many admonitions about why not to reduce h110/w296 which are great to keep in mind

[DougGuy]

Well Jon, it's like rolling through a deserted out in the country 4 way stop at 35mph simply because there is not usually any traffic around. But what are the chances that there might be? Nothing to stop an accident from happening really, EXCEPT safe driving habits, and observing the commonly posted rules of the road. Do we really need hard data to show that there is indeed potential hazard for a severe accident to occur?

Same with downloading H110. If you stay within published load data, and you harken the advice of the old timers, there is no reason you would ever want to "just try it and see."

These forums are great places to learn, I came in here thinking the same thing about H110 and I got the same long winded admonitions until I "got it" and figured out 1. why there is a widely accepted practice against such a load, and 2. how downloading this powder can lead to an unpredictable pressure event.

I had a specific task in mind I wanted to accomplish with my .45 Colt Vaquero, and the velocity I was after was less than published load data for H110. Hercules 2400 put it right in the ball park with no issues. And then I tried LilGun and found it is extremely accurate in the load I wanted to develop. Learned something new..

[35remington]

If you wish, I can dig up specific warnings from the manufacturer of the powder, as printed by Winchester/Olin in the late seventies or eighties when the powder was reasonably new.

[jonp]

Well Jon, it's like rolling through a deserted out in the country 4 way stop at 35mph simply because there is not usually any traffic around. But what are the chances that there might be? Nothing to stop an accident from happening really, EXCEPT safe driving habits, and observing the commonly posted rules of the road. Do we really need hard data to show that there is indeed potential hazard for a severe accident to occur?

Same with downloading H110. If you stay within published load data, and you harken the advice of the old timers, there is no reason you would ever want to "just try it and see."

These forums are great places to learn, I came in here thinking the same thing about H110 and I got the same long winded admonitions until I "got it" and figured out 1. why there is a widely accepted practice against such a load, and 2. how downloading this powder can lead to an unpredictable pressure event.

I had a specific task in mind I wanted to accomplish with my .45 Colt Vaquero, and the velocity I was after was less than published load data for H110. Hercules 2400 put it right in the ball park with no issues. And then I tried LilGun and found it is extremely accurate in the load I wanted to develop. Learned something new..

Read the original post and you will see I am not interested in "just try it and see". I was interested if someone else had done so and what they had experienced preferably with pressure, unburnt powder, boolits lodged in barrels....

[blackthorn]

Read the original post and you will see I am not interested in "just try it and see". I was interested if someone else had done so and what they had experienced preferably with pressure, unburnt powder, boolits lodged in barrels....

Even so---just because someone else did it and got away with it, don't mean you will!! But it is your well being so do what you will. Good luck.

[MT Gianni]

A good reduced load for 296/110 is as the manufacture stated max -3%.

[cbrick]

Ok jonp, I did try downloading H-110 but in the 454, not the Colt. I downloaded from published FA data with 240 gr bullets. I didn't stick any bullets, I noticed no unusual pressure signs (maybe I was lucky), there was unburnt powder in the cylinder & bore.

What I noticed more than anything was that a very accurate 200 meter near max load that was nearly as hard on the shooter as it was for the shootee would suddenly not hit a barn if I was standing inside it once reduced 4-5% or more.

I love H-110, I buy it by the 8 pounder and I use a lot of it but I've learned my lesson. My lesson is that if accuracy has anything to do with the load H-110 does not work worth a hoot if reduced. It is a great powder for full power in any of the mag cartridges and it loves heavy for caliber bullets & a good solid bullet pull/crimp. It is not fond of light bullets. It's one of the worst choices for reduced loads. To be effective it needs the pressure up or it doesn't burn efficiently.

Another choice is H-108 if you can find any. It also is a ball powder & needs near max loads, it was billed as H-110 duplicate but when I did a lot of testing with it for long range revolver it gave less felt recoil and about 10% less velocity. Accuracy was there with it but I couldn't get the velocity up for long range.

Rick

[jonp]

Thanks for the info, Rick. I was about to give up with the last few comments as no-one could seem to actualy read and understand the original post but were more interested in lecturing on not doing something I specificaly said I had no interest in doing in the first place.
People need to read a little more careful here and not try to read anything into a post that is not there

[ddixie884]

...........................................

[Oldtimer45]

I use the Lee 255 gr. swc(mine are 263 gr.) with 21.5 gr. 296/h110. This load is good in two Rugers,a 5.5 inch BH and a 7.5 inch Bisley. We have shot over 400 of these and had no problems. This is our hunting load,we shoot many more light loads with Unique 8 to 9 grains. Never shoot the H110/296 loads in my S&W model 25.

[WHEELGUNHUNTER]

How reduced did you mean? The load data I mentioned is reduced 21%+. One configuration I mentioned dropped. It down to 1050 fps. It would be interesting to know what would happen with maybe 14 or 15 grains. Maybe that's where the instability comes in......I call BS on the "do not reduce more that 3%" statement as it seems like a marketing ploy since other bullet manufacturers have published much lower load specs.

[John Allen]

I have been really happy with unique. I run the minimum loads. They have low recoil and are just fun to shoot.

[jonp]

How reduced did you mean? The load data I mentioned is reduced 21%+. One configuration I mentioned dropped. It down to 1050 fps. It would be interesting to know what would happen with maybe 14 or 15 grains. Maybe that's where the instability comes in......I call BS on the "do not reduce more that 3%" statement as it seems like a marketing ploy since other bullet manufacturers have published much lower load specs.

Pretty much anything under 3-5%. I was interested in hard data on pressure variations and accuracy plus squibs etc since that is what is the "common knowledge" that will happen when more than that in reduction is tried.

[WHEELGUNHUNTER]

I c. With 21 grains behind 250 grain xtp I'm dead on at 25 yards, few inches high at 50 and back on at 75. Groups anywhere from 3 inches to 8 inches respectively. Much better accuracy could be achieved from a bench I'm sure. I do all my shooting off hand cause I don't have a bench when I'm hunting anyway. No signs of excessive pressure. Actually, with the hotter loads like say 26 grains, I get flattened primers but not with these. Recoil is actually rather pleasant. Hope that helps. Enjoy and happy shooting! I gotta go check traps now and waste some 45 ammo ;-)