Hk p7

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

Does anybody know how to identify the origins of a P7? I guessing mine was a West German police gun and would like to know more about it.

Thanks, Tom

[1500FPS]

http://hkp7.com/

[Worn_Holster]

This is from a former HK engineer who is a member of the HKPro forum and is an expert on the P7. The German version, know to most as the P7 PSP was used for a long time by many different German police and military elements. Several years back, the Germans traded their PSPs back to H&K for a pistol of modern design and production. The old PSPs were gone over by HK armorers and then imported and sold on the US civilian market. The German police did not routinely shoot their PSPs, and most of them displayed external holster wear but very little if no internal wear from firing them. They are excellent pistols and I own 2 of them. Due to the semi-automatic blowback design which uses gas pressures from the ignited cartridge fed through a small port in the barrel (in front of the chamber) to retard the rearward motion of the slide, the use of lead bullets is not recommended because shaved lead resulting from bullet feeding will quickly block the gas port and impede proper operation of the blowback system.
Per G3Kurz:

This may be a good time to share this again.

The HK P7 is a very intriguing design. Even more so is the background why it is designed the way it is. It was not because the designer Helmut Weldle wanted it just to be different. Look at it from the aspect of the user prevailing (surviving) in a gun fight. The ENTIRE pistol is designed with that one goal in mind – to give the user minute advantages in speed, accuracy and ease of use needed to survive the violent, rapid, high stress, reactionary nature of gun fights.

According to law enforcement statistics the average gun fight is over in seconds (@ 3-5), often it occurs under low light conditions and usually it is at ranges under 7 yards. Some time the good guy starts from a disadvantage with the weapon holstered and the bad guy with the element of surprise. Thus the optimum gun fighters’ tool to prevail as the good guy would have to be;

1. Fast to make ready and to fire and;
2. Easy and non-sequential to make ready and fire AND to “make safe” afterwards and;
3. Accurate and reliable enough for the task at hand.

For the P7 the controversial caliber and related terminal effectiveness parameters were already set by the German police as 9x19mm Parabellum when they asked for candidates.

Weldle looked at gun fight stats and based his development on those factors with these goals achieved in the design.

1. Fast
The P7 can be fired in three ways with no sequence required. Squeeze Cocker first, then Trigger (preferred), Trigger then Squeeze Cocker, or both at once. So the P7 goes from uncocked and "safe" with a round chambered (which was a requirement for it – a chambered round inside yet still safe to carry that way) to a firing condition instantly. It can be upholstered and “all systems squeezed” to provide a very fast first shot. There is no manual safety to find or fool with as was the case with many semi-autos in the 1970s when it was designed. It is also fast to reload with the cocking lever acting as the slide release.

2. Easy
Under extreme stress the pistol must be able to be used easily when fine motor skills disappear and past training takes over. There are no sequential steps to fire the P7 and it is even easier to “make safe” by simply releasing the cocking lever – gun goes uncocked but still with a round in the chamber. No manual safety to engage, no decocking lever to actuate. Relaxing the hand is a simple task.

3. Accurate
How much accuracy does one need to hit a man-sized target at 7 yards or less? – not much. However accuracy can also be defined as the ability to get rounds on target quickly and instinctually, not the size of the group (aka precision). In that regard the physical layout of the P7 is purpose-designed with a select grip-to-barrel angle (same as your index finger related to the center of your palm) thus what you look at and point your finger at the pistol follows. The entire operating system, in particular the gas retardation system and fixed barrel, was developed anew to lower the P7’s center of gravity into the center of the hand to reduce the slide height and resulting muzzle whip that adversely affects rapid follow up shots. It aims naturally because it fits the hand well.

The full time SA trigger makes it easy to break each shot without the need to deal with a heavy 10+ pound and long length of travel DA or DA Only trigger pull. The squeeze cocking design allows the safe use of a SA trigger system with its resulting excellent trigger pull without the need for a manual safety, and still remain a safe system. How many other SA pistols are safe without their manual safety engaged?

Sure the P7 is safe and includes many unique safety features by design but safety during the gun fight was not a prime mover in the concept, that is beyond making it safe to carry before and after its actual use during the gun fight. The ambi mag release, adjustable sights, loaded chamber indicator extractor, slim snag-free profile and other features on the P7 are nice-to-haves as well and add to the overall package but were not core concerns as they play a minor to no factor in the classic gun fight scenario, at least that of the era of the 1970’s.

Many folks complain of the tiny and for some hard to engage slide stop and heat build up in the gas system after 3 or 4 magazines in rapid fire. That in itself reveals the true intent of the P7 as a pure gun fighter’s tool. Weldle didn’t care about that. You would never use the slide stop in a gun fight and likely never get out of the first magazine either so they are not factors. Thus is the reason why the Germans were always satisfied with 8+1 rounds (The 13-shot P7M13 was an American idea).

This is why with P7’s you either get it or don’t. They were not intended to be range guns but serious tools with a very specific purpose in mind.

G3Kurz

[Tatume]

Very nice article. Thank you.

I had a P7M8 in the late eighties and sold it. I've regretted letting it go ever since. Yesterday I picked up a functionally perfect P7 with a spare magazine, in the original box. It is one of the surplused German police guns, I think. Today I fired 50 rounds through it. It performs just like my P7M8, perfectly with no malfunctions of any kind, and cleans the falling plates at 25 yards. Ken Null is making one of his UNS holsters for me. http://klnullholsters.com/

Take care, Tom

[Worn_Holster]

It is my choice for a home defense pistol. There is no way that my young children could ever pull the squeeze cocker even if they managed to get a hold of it in the house without my knowledge. For those who don't understand P7 operation, the squeeze cocking lever on the front edge of the pistols grip must be squeezed until it is completely engaged (about 15lbs of pressure needed) before the trigger will allow the firing pin to drop on the primer. Once the squeeze cocker is engaged, only 2lbs of pressure is required to hold it in the cocked position. The P7s are highly accurate, extremely safe and reliable, and can quickly be made ready from extremely safe to armed as G3Kurz describes. I had this PSP hard chromed at Mahovsky's for $155. They are not light as the frames were CNC milled from a billet of quality German steel.
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab52/myHKiron/DSC_0160c.jpg

[warboar_21]

Very nice looking P7 you have there Worn Holster.

For a short time I dated a UHP officer and she carried the P7 as her duty pistol. I was able to shoot it a few times and really wanted to get my hands on one but at the time couldn't afford one and had other guns that I wanted a little more. One of these days maybe I can find one that is reasonably priced and not abused.

[Newboy]

An overlooked advantage is the firing pin can be removed in a few seconds. If I have to leave the gun in the car, I take the firing pin in my pocket.

[Worn_Holster]

The factory sights can be easily cleared of the white plastic that comes in them, and Trijicon tritium vials fit right in. If you prep the factory sights, ie remove the plastic, drill a pin hole in the back of the sight for future service, and countersink the face for white paint around the vial, Trijicon will furnish, install, and return ship the front and rear sights for $54.
The supply of German police trade-in imports has dried up, and the prices for the PSPs are climbing again due to demand. Two years ago you could easily find them for $500 - $600.
My 2nd PSP is an A grade and has 99% of its original finish.
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab52/myHKiron/pre29s6025b_zpsc0776793.jpg

[Petrol & Powder]

The P7 is an outstanding design and a truly unique pistol. Worn Holster provided an excellent write-up on the P7 series- Thank You
Germany is divided into "States" ,so to speak, and the state police for each region where allowed to choose their pistols. The Walther P5, the Sig P6 (P225 here in the US) and the H&K P7 were all used by various German "States".
A large number of the imported Sig-Sauer P6's are marked "NW" for North Rhine-Westphalia, as that was the pistol used by the police of that state. The P7 (PSP) pistols were used by multiple German state and federal agencies with Bavaria being one of the most popular. Unfortunately for American collectors, many of those former German police pistols had the state/federal markings removed. Many P7's have a flat machined into the right side of the slide in front of the serial number and behind the date code. That area of the slide formerly showed the marking that identified the region/agency that the pistol was issued in.
The P7 is one of my favorite designs. It is very accurate, fast, durable and reliable (despite all of those parts !) The P7 points very well for most users. At one time it was one of the slimmest/smallest 9mm pistols on the market. It's operating system is unusual but very dependable. The fluted chamber allows the casing to "float" and is similar to that of a G3 rifle. The fixed barrel allows a compact, yet very accurate design. The gun will actually function with the extractor removed from the slide! However it is not desirable to remove the extractor because it can result in a live round remaining in the chamber when the slide is manually retracted.
Enjoy your pistol, it is an outstanding example of German engineering.

[Petrol & Powder]

In the second photo by Worn holster you can see the Nds marking inside of an oval. It is located on the slide just to the rear of the 10/87 date code. That marking denotes the pistol was from Niedersachsen or Lower Saxony.

[Tatume]

In the second photo by Worn holster you can see the Nds marking inside of an oval. It is located on the slide just to the rear of the 10/87 date code. That marking denotes the pistol was from Niedersachsen or Lower Saxony.

With the exception of the serial number, which is less than 100 higher, all of my markings are the same. Thank you.

[Petrol & Powder]

You've got an outstanding pistol. I know a former deputy that carried one as his duty pistol. Everyone else had Glocks, Beretta's, Sig's, etc., but he is an outstanding marksman. He can draw that pistol and put those 8 rounds from that PSP in one hole faster than most people can get two somewhere on the paper! After ten's of thousands of rounds that gun is still shooting great. The heal magazine release is sometimes criticized but it's actually a benefit. It's almost impossible for the mag to come unseated unless you want it out. Just another feature that gives the user an advantage.
Take care of that pistol and it will serve you well for many years. Good Luck.

[Adam10mm]

Had a PSP for a few years. Sold it last year or the year before. Good little gun. Serial number was 6828. Condition was outstanding.

[Tatume]

Mine now rides in a Ken Null UNS holster. I tried to get a holster from another maker whose website said delivery would be in 4 - 6 weeks. I placed the order and a pop-up said it would be 6 - 8 weeks. I complained and the rep said 10 - 12 weeks. I cancelled the order.

Then I called Ken Null. He recommended the UNS holster. I asked if he could make it with sewn loops, not snaps, and he said "yes." I asked if he could set it to ride a little extra deep in the waistband and he said "yes." I asked how long it would take and he said "8 - 10 days." I placed the order, and four days later I had the holster.

The Ken Null UNS and P7 make the most comfortable carry rig I've ever worn. Even though it is superbly concealed, the draw and presentation are very fast. The gun is held securely too. Ken Null earned my future business.

Take care, Tom

[Worn_Holster]

I have been very happy with the Milt Sparks VM2, but the 6 month wait is more than many care to endure...
http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab52/myHKiron/a5fd310a.jpg

[9.3X62AL]

I had custody of an H&K P7 for a couple months, and its compactness and simplicity impressed me greatly. No, its owner wouldn't sell it. While I'm not enamored of the 9mm's fight-stopping ability with most of its USA loadings, if European-level loadings that utilize controlled-expansion bullets are carried--the 9mm can become a viable goblin-stopper. The PSP (Parabellum Selbstladen Pistole) would make a GREAT sidearm so filled and carried.

[Adam10mm]

Al, I thought you liked the 147gr Gold Dot in your 9mm?

[9.3X62AL]

Them's fightin' words, you scoundrelly Facklerite, you! :)

[Adam10mm]

I can only imagine the look on your face when you read that. :mrgreen:

[9.3X62AL]

Chortle, chortle......the only place a 147 GDHP is appropriate is as the first of 32 such items in an SMG magazine. From a suppressed Colt SMG, they do fine work on streetlights when the Road Department can't be bothered to turn off light banks after-hours.

[Adam10mm]

Or in the garbage.

[9.3X62AL]

Too extreme a response. Just shoot 'em off, then refill the brass with a load that duplicates real ammunition.......say, a 125 GD @ 1250 FPS. Mo' bettah.

[Adam10mm]

I've got like 100rds of 147gr GD handloads here. No gun for them. I just take the box out, look at them sitting there all pretty, then put the box back.

[Tatume]

Hi Folks,

My newly acquired P7 is still running 100% and is still cleaning the falling plates for me. However, it definitely developed a hitch in its giddy up. When I racked the slide I could feel a bad gritty spot. When I first got it I oiled all the shiny surfaces on the inside, anywhere it indicated to me that metal was bearing against metal. Today when I opened it up it was dry as a bone. So this time I did the same thing, except I used a light, high temperature grease. Now it feels good again.

Are there any tidbits I need to know about keeping one of these things running well and happy? I'm a 1911 kind of guy, and I know what makes them purr. What's different about the P7?

Thanks, Tom

[Worn_Holster]

I am not sure of the condition that you received the P7, whether the piston cylinder was clean, or how many rounds that you have put through it. Making certain that the gas cylinder and piston are clean are very important to maintaining proper pistol function. Normally, cleaning the piston cylinder with the HK piston scraper every 500 rounds is sufficient to keep it running well. A .270 nylon brush with some carbon solvent and a bore mop can also help keep it clean. Usually when the slide starts feeling like it is binding, the piston cylinder needs to be cleaned. No lubricant is needed on the gas piston. Only the edges of the rings need to be clean, carbon down between the rings won't effect performance.
Good shooting!

[Tatume]

That sounds like what I experienced. I'll clean the piston right away and again regularly. Thanks.

[IridiumRed]

This is from a former HK engineer who is a member of the HKPro forum and is an expert on the P7. The German version, know to most as the P7 PSP was used for a long time by many different German police and military elements. Several years back, the Germans traded their PSPs back to H&K for a pistol of modern design and production. The old PSPs were gone over by HK armorers and then imported and sold on the US civilian market. The German police did not routinely shoot their PSPs, and most of them displayed external holster wear but very little if no internal wear from firing them. They are excellent pistols and I own 2 of them. Due to the semi-automatic blowback design which uses gas pressures from the ignited cartridge fed through a small port in the barrel (in front of the chamber) to retard the rearward motion of the slide, the use of lead bullets is not recommended because shaved lead resulting from bullet feeding will quickly block the gas port and impede proper operation of the blowback system.
Per G3Kurz:

This may be a good time to share this again.

The HK P7 is a very intriguing design. Even more so is the background why it is designed the way it is. It was not because the designer Helmut Weldle wanted it just to be different. Look at it from the aspect of the user prevailing (surviving) in a gun fight. The ENTIRE pistol is designed with that one goal in mind – to give the user minute advantages in speed, accuracy and ease of use needed to survive the violent, rapid, high stress, reactionary nature of gun fights.

According to law enforcement statistics the average gun fight is over in seconds (@ 3-5), often it occurs under low light conditions and usually it is at ranges under 7 yards. Some time the good guy starts from a disadvantage with the weapon holstered and the bad guy with the element of surprise. Thus the optimum gun fighters’ tool to prevail as the good guy would have to be;

1. Fast to make ready and to fire and;
2. Easy and non-sequential to make ready and fire AND to “make safe” afterwards and;
3. Accurate and reliable enough for the task at hand.

For the P7 the controversial caliber and related terminal effectiveness parameters were already set by the German police as 9x19mm Parabellum when they asked for candidates.

Weldle looked at gun fight stats and based his development on those factors with these goals achieved in the design.

1. Fast
The P7 can be fired in three ways with no sequence required. Squeeze Cocker first, then Trigger (preferred), Trigger then Squeeze Cocker, or both at once. So the P7 goes from uncocked and "safe" with a round chambered (which was a requirement for it – a chambered round inside yet still safe to carry that way) to a firing condition instantly. It can be upholstered and “all systems squeezed” to provide a very fast first shot. There is no manual safety to find or fool with as was the case with many semi-autos in the 1970s when it was designed. It is also fast to reload with the cocking lever acting as the slide release.

2. Easy
Under extreme stress the pistol must be able to be used easily when fine motor skills disappear and past training takes over. There are no sequential steps to fire the P7 and it is even easier to “make safe” by simply releasing the cocking lever – gun goes uncocked but still with a round in the chamber. No manual safety to engage, no decocking lever to actuate. Relaxing the hand is a simple task.

3. Accurate
How much accuracy does one need to hit a man-sized target at 7 yards or less? – not much. However accuracy can also be defined as the ability to get rounds on target quickly and instinctually, not the size of the group (aka precision). In that regard the physical layout of the P7 is purpose-designed with a select grip-to-barrel angle (same as your index finger related to the center of your palm) thus what you look at and point your finger at the pistol follows. The entire operating system, in particular the gas retardation system and fixed barrel, was developed anew to lower the P7’s center of gravity into the center of the hand to reduce the slide height and resulting muzzle whip that adversely affects rapid follow up shots. It aims naturally because it fits the hand well.

The full time SA trigger makes it easy to break each shot without the need to deal with a heavy 10+ pound and long length of travel DA or DA Only trigger pull. The squeeze cocking design allows the safe use of a SA trigger system with its resulting excellent trigger pull without the need for a manual safety, and still remain a safe system. How many other SA pistols are safe without their manual safety engaged?

Sure the P7 is safe and includes many unique safety features by design but safety during the gun fight was not a prime mover in the concept, that is beyond making it safe to carry before and after its actual use during the gun fight. The ambi mag release, adjustable sights, loaded chamber indicator extractor, slim snag-free profile and other features on the P7 are nice-to-haves as well and add to the overall package but were not core concerns as they play a minor to no factor in the classic gun fight scenario, at least that of the era of the 1970’s.

Many folks complain of the tiny and for some hard to engage slide stop and heat build up in the gas system after 3 or 4 magazines in rapid fire. That in itself reveals the true intent of the P7 as a pure gun fighter’s tool. Weldle didn’t care about that. You would never use the slide stop in a gun fight and likely never get out of the first magazine either so they are not factors. Thus is the reason why the Germans were always satisfied with 8+1 rounds (The 13-shot P7M13 was an American idea).

This is why with P7’s you either get it or don’t. They were not intended to be range guns but serious tools with a very specific purpose in mind.

G3Kurz

Fascinating, thanks for sharing!

I owned a couple of P7's (P7M13's) years ago, and liked them a lot. Quite unique designs that were different.... and yet worked, and worked very well. So many of the "different" designs you see don't work well... their main attraction simply being different, not functional... but the P7 was something else

[Combat Diver]

When I gradulated Basic Training in 1983, I went down to the LGS and fondled a NIB Stainless Steel Randall 1911 and a used electroless nickeled P7 PSP. Kept that P7 for about 15 yrs before my best friend talked me out of it. Gun was extremely accurate and I would shoot bowling pin competitions with it at the time. No problem clearing the tables with the 9mm if hit right and the P7 was easy to do with. SN on mine was 19401, somehow I remember a few SN out of the many I've owned. Mine didn't like CCI Blazer ammo IIRC and I didn't cast back then.


CD

[mongoosesnipe]

i picked one up during the import flood a few years back one of my favorite pistols the only bad thing about is it a jword gun

[baker1425]

I've had the opportunity to marvel and own a P7(PSP). I agree that it is a natural pointer and meets the close range and longer range needs under stress. I was at LE training in DC~99 in a session training with multiple agencies including Park Police, they carried P7M10 40SW then.

Their instructors had come to believe that it was the ultimate police gun. (I think that parts and service issues from H&K killed all that noise.)

The funny thing she related was that she would be routinely approached by middle aged men on while duty(she was an attractive lady) and instead of being propositioned or asked out, they would try to buy her magazines from her off of her duty belt.

[Petrol & Powder]

The H&K P7 is an outstanding design and I'll second the suggestion on cleaning the piston cylinder under the barrel. Mine has never malfunctioned even when dirty but I could see how carbon could slow things down.