Ogive cutting on a lathe

[Idz]

I'm looking at making some die reamers with various profiles. Some people free-form a curve with files but that isn't reproducible. Others have built/bought a ogive/radius cutting fixture for their lathe but that takes time and money.

What I am looking at is using the swiveling compound rest as the ogive cutter. My cheap 9x20 import lathe has a one piece swivel base that I took apart and chucked the swivel pin in the lathe. Then using the tailstock drill I drilled a hole in the top of the piece that is concentric with the swivel axis. By using pointed pins I can align the chuck axis to intersect the swivel axis. Then using the crossfeed I can set the ogive radius offset. I can then set the bit and set a stop block on the compound rest so it stops rotating when the swivel to bit point line is perpendicular to the chuck axis. Using the longitudinal feed and swiveling the compound rest I can then cut a precise ogive.

It works well on my test wood dowel and aluminum pin but I have to make a better bit before I try steel. Has anybody here tried this before to cut a ogive on a reamer? I worry that it may not be rigid enough for cutting steel.

[Reload3006]

why not make yourself a form tool bit? reproducible every time.

[customcutter]

Haven't been able to get a mental picture of what you're doing. But, I have wondered why you couldn't just make a "ball turner", set it for what ever radius ogive you want and have at it.

CC

[Honorstick]

I've been working on the idea of something similar except I was thinking of a fixture that would replace the compound and allow me to swing pretty much any radius arc I wanted within reason based on lathe size.

I would be interested in seeing pictures of what you're doing or pictures of what others have done to achieve something repeatable that can be done on a lathe.

Once I get further along with my proof of concept I'll try to post some pics as well.

[customcutter]

Idz,

try PMing member sprinkintime. I did and asked about his ogive fixture. He sent me pics of his. I can't recall what thread it was in, but he offered to send pics to another member. I pm'd him and he sent them to me also. I don't want to "release" his material without consent, but he was having difficulty posting pics IIRC.

CC

[Idz]

Thanks for the replies. I have looked at a number of radius cutting fixtures but don't need another project so was hoping to adapt the existing lathe parts. The only difference I see between the fixtures and compound rest is the fixture has the ability to locate the swivel axis to the lathe axis. By drilling a hole in the compound rest that is concentric with its swivel axis I can then locate the two axes. My only other concern is if the compound rest is rigid enough while cutting steel. I know it works fine for wood dowels and aluminum test pieces.

Example: cut a 5 ogive on 0.22 diameter rod
1) Chuck a pointed pin and insert a correct length pointed pin into the swivel axis hole drilled into the compound rest.
2) Adjust cross feed and long. feed so the pin points touch. Lock the long. feed
3) Offset the crossfeed by 5 ogive (1.1) Lock the crossfeed
4) Adjust the cutting bit point to touch chucked pin point. The swivel point and bit point now form a line perpendicular to the lathe axis. This makes the swivel circle tangent to the lathe axis.
5) Adjust stop block on swivel so it can't swivel past the tangent.
6) Chuck up the 0.22 rod to be machined
7) Unlock and adjust the crossfeed by the material radius (0.11) so the bit touches the OD. Lock the crossfeed
8) By using the long. feed and swiveling the compound the ogive can now be cut

[teddyblu]

73933

rotozip tool used for grinder, not a clear picture but u can get the idea of layout for adj ogives

[Cane_man]

teddy, found your pic here, looks nice:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=33655&d=1309214066


http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?119628-Making-reamers&highlight=point+forming+die

[Idz]

That's a neat way of making a toolpost grinder. The rag is good to catch the grit. I assume you setup to cut a ogive the same way I do by aligning the swivel and chuck, and then offsetting the swivel? What is the line of holes for that are perpendicular to the swivel axis holes? I assume your rig is attached to the crossfeed slide? Is there a fine tune on the rig to compensate for grinding wheel wear?

thanks

[teddyblu]

The holes are to set the ojive, the present setting is a 6 ojive, two holes from the top end is approx 9 ojive.
A different size wheel will change the ojive. It is adjusted for wear as you use it. The cross slide is used to feed in small amounts as you grind the ojive.

[Cane_man]

so teddy, so i understand how you use it, you are advancing the cross slide forward toward the blank with attached grinder, and then you are just rotating the roto zip in/out to grind off material, then rinse and repeat until the proper OD is achieved?

once you have formed your ogive, do you mill out some material to make it as a reamer? if so, how many "flutes" are you milling out?

when the reamer is done, you just ream out the die until you have the correct depth for the bullet, then polish/lap the die?

how are you checking progress as you lap, do you cast lead inside to measure?

sorry for all the questions, i just dont get this yet... i am in the middle of making my 22LR to .224 6s and i have made the derimmer, core sizer, core swager/setar, and now i am at the home stretch with the point forming die... thanks

[Idz]

Now I'm confused. I would think you would align the swivel and chuck centers, use the CROSSFEED to offset to the correct ogive, then lock the crossfeed and use the LONGITUDINAL feed to adjust cutting depth. Also, just how are you adjusting for wheel wear?

thanks

[Cane_man]

here is my first attempt at ogive cutting on the lathe:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/d-reamer-1001_zpsd7b4491b.jpg

from left to right:

-0.25 burr that i ground down to 0.218 or so, to rough out the ogive
-my first attempt at a d-reamer, 0.224 6s profile, but the OD was ~ 0.220
-lead casting of the die (the tit on the meplat is from the ejection punch hole)
-the production bullet that i am trying to copy (this is a Sierra 55gr)

the die flared out and is about 0.230 at the base, and i learned a few lessons on this one... i will attempt another this weekend and be much more careful while boring...

the d-reamer was made with w1, the profile was made using two angle cuts and then shaping with a file and sand paper, then i milled it in half and filed it smooth, heat treated water quenched then tempered, then ground out the back of the spoon, then sharpened with a diamond hone and it cut pretty smooth and i was surprised how smooth it cut

[customcutter]

Cane,

Looks like you are making progress. Did you predrill the hole for the burr? If so, with one bit or several different sizes, feeding in a little further each time, as they got smaller? Do you think the die flared because of the burr or the reamer? Or maybe lapping? What was your die material. Grade 5 or grade 8 bolt, or 4140 PH? Save it for making .243, it's not a bad die, it just hasn't reached final dimension.:D

CC

[Cane_man]

i wussed out and used 12L14 because i didnt know how it would turn out...

i predrilled as much as i could or dared to, but used the burr to hog out most of the material so i didn't really have to predrill... i drilled the 1/16" ejection rod hole and that was it before reaming... i fed the d reamer in cutting a little at a time, retract it and cleaned it off... a pile of tiny metal flakes would be on top of the reamer but they were really fine almost like powder and the cutting was pretty easy... that diamond hone gave it a really decent edge and it cut pretty smooth... i think the die flared because the reamer was not perfectly square/parallel to the die body... for sure i could keep boring it out to 0.236 or so and salvage this for the 0.243 project which is next :) wasn't as hard as i thought and it was a blast

i am thinking that making a 4 flute reamer is the way to go... this way i can chuck it in the tail stock and i wont have to worry about any alignment problems and i may get an even smoother finish... i could rough cut hog it out with the d reamer, then finish with the fluted reamer

me and the wifey gotta do some stuff then later today i may do another with some O1

[Idz]

Curious as to why you cut off the back side of your reamer. I thought the reason d-reamers work is the 1/2 diameter reamer couldn't move around in the hole and chatter.

[customcutter]

Cane,

I thought I noticed your D reamer was mounted in a boring bar holder. I was wondering why you didn't chuck it up in the tailstock, if you had a chuck to fit it.

Idz, has a good point. I haven't seen any D reamers with the back side cut/ground off.

CC

[Cane_man]

the way i understood a d reamer, it is also known as a "spoon", is that it is made like a boring bar with only one cutting edge... the way i cut it in half i could only get relief for the cutting edge on one side, so i just ground off the other side so it wouldn't bind up and cause chatter... i didn't get any chatter from this reamer, but i was only cutting 12L14 which is highly machinable... i really want to make a 4 fluted reamer next, and i finally figured out how i can do it with my lathe by lowering the center line of the part below the axial center line of the lathe...

[customcutter]

A D reamer only has one cutting edge is correct. The trailing edge doesn't cut due to the rotation of the material. If you reversed direction then the opposite edge would cut. I'm not sure that it matters really whether the trailing edge is left intact or cut/ground off. Some tend to believe that the trailing edge maintains contact with the wall and stops any possible chatter. I can't say, as I have no experience yet. Still need to heat treat and temper my D reamers.

[customcutter]

Came across this on youtube. Not sure yet what the difference is in turning a ball/sphere and turning an ogive/parabolla yet. Still studying that one. Need a compass to do some drawings with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_KRElCauTM

CC

[customcutter]

Also found this on how to make a "ball/sphere" turner. There are also other plans out there on the net, that I've seen in the past. Sure they would turn up with a google search.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSlS05unHkM

CC

[Cane_man]

i couldn't stand it any longer so i had to see how that point forming die worked out so i seated some cores to test it out... didn't turn out too bad, the bases are too large but i will probably run them through a sizer anyway as the last step in the process... i was surprised no stuck cases and it didn't take much to punch them out, the ogive is supposed to be 1/16", anyway they are ugly but they are my ugly and i likes em for 224-V1 and the middle bullet is the Sierra factory jword i am trying to copy:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-V1005_zps4ab59dc6.jpg

just look at those swelled bases, and one tip is folded, LOL! gots lots of room for improvement, and i will be making a new fluted reamer and a new point forming die, and save this one for grins...

cc, i am going to give you a suggestion that hopefully you will thank me for later :) in the back you see a 1/16" ejection punch that i bought from mcmaster, it is 1/8" for the first 2" then the rest is 1/16" and C41 hardness, you just need to buy this thing as making one will be a major PITA, its only about $7 and totally worth it imo, here is the link:

http://www.mcmaster.com/#ejector-punches/=nb5rwt

i am going to drill out a 1/4" grade 5 and use a set screw to support the punch, and use it as the ejection punch for the point forming die assembly...



edit: the 12L14 might just work as this die wan't polished very much at all, and the cases ejected with no problems, so for now i am sticking with this alloy...


.

[Idz]

This seems to verify what I suspected. Things don't have to be perfect production dies to swage usable bullets. The oldtimers did know what they were doing!

[Cane_man]

Came across this on youtube. Not sure yet what the difference is in turning a ball/sphere and turning an ogive/parabolla yet. Still studying that one. Need a compass to do some drawings with.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s_KRElCauTM

CC

edit: this is what i think it is, i could be smokin' the drapes on this whole thing [smilie=1:

all you need to know is the angle of the tangent line along the length of the ogive at a particular distance from the meplat... i won't bore you with the math but for the .224 bullet with a 6s ogive the design is as follows:

-ogive length = 0.53" to the tip (it is really this long) edit: did not account for 1/16" meplat so ogive length is 0.46!
-meplat width = 1/16" [0.0625"] (for our home made stuff this is about as small as you can get it and make it work)
-23 degree tangent line angle at point (not meplat)
-20 degree tangent line angle at 0.0625" meplat, which is located 0.08" from the point
-14 degree tangent line angle 0.2" from the point (not the meplat) that has a diameter ~ 0.137"
-6 degree tangent line angle 0.4" from the point (not the meplat) that has a diameter ~ 0.209"
-0 degree tangent line angle 0.53" from the point (not the meplat) that has a diameter = 0.224
-overall bullet length is approximately 0.70 ~ 0.75 depending on your taste (Sierra production 55gr is 0.72)
-shank length = 0.71 - 0.46 = 0.25" (i remeasured - not as long as you think)

so how does this help when shaping the ogive?

1) turn the cross slide to angle 14 degrees and from the ogive start cutting until you get an diameter of 0.137" at a distance of 0.2" from the point (yes, lots of stopping measuring checking, and you want to overisze these dimensions by about 0.005" so you can lap it to size)

2) then set cross slide angle of 6 degrees and cut until you hit a diameter of 0.209" at a distance of 0.4" from the point

3) use a fine toothed flat file to smooth out the profile, then use sand paper (80 grit, 400, 1000) to smooth the surface until the shank is about 0.220 so you can lap your point forming die to size

-from there you can make any type of boring bore or reamer that you want, the meplat will be set by the size of hole you drill in the point forming die for the ejection punch

hope this makes sense, using excel and the circle/tangent formulas is far easier than doing it on paper with a compass and straight edge, at least for me :)

here is a picture from the archives (i believe KTN did this) showing 3 angled cuts instead of the 2 i propose above:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/ogive-cuts_zpsbb7ce54f.jpg

i think this is probably the easiest way to do it at home and get the highest level of accuracy...

[clodhopper]

The bullets made by commericial suppliers have to look great.
The bullets made by shooters have to shoot great.
Not quite the same thing.
The three angled cuts, with the angles slightly rounded over by polishing might just shoot better than most guys can hold.
Experimentation, and sharing ideas will benifit all shooters.
Thanks for the work you guys are doing

[customcutter]

Cane,

Thanks for the explanation. My understanding (probably wrong) of a 6ogive of a .224 bullet. (.5*D)*6=.672 The cutter would be set up on a .672" radius on a ball cutter, then advanced so that the tangent and base of the ogive meet (.53" from the meplat in your calculation above), then the cutter rotated from that point to the point of the bullet or meplat. Offsetting the cutter from the centerline of the chuck and tailstock would produce more of a parabolic shape than a sphere.

Like I said it's probably wrong that's why I was saying I needed to find a compass so that I could do some quick drawings. (quicker for me than getting a cad program and learning how to use it):grin:

CC

[Cane_man]

ya you got it right cc... i screwed up above and did not account for the meplat correctly, i changed it slightly above

i could be wrong on all this but this is what i think it is! here are a couple of pics of the ogive, it is basically two circles that both have "6S" diameters that are aligned on the centers and move up and down until the length of their intersection is the same length as the diameter of the bullet:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/6SOgive-Overview_zpsd66ccfb0.jpg


here is the area of the circles that form the ogive, you can set the meplat wherever you want:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/6SOgive-Detail_zps82107cf5.jpg

this is known as a "tangent" ogive because the circles are tangent to the base of the bullet... a spitzer is a "secent" ogive and the circles are not tangent to the base and this type of ogive is harder to make and the ogive is longer compared to the tangent type...

but at home, for knocking down squirrels and yotes and punching holes in paper the simpler tangent ogive is just fine...

[garandsrus]

Your picture looks distorted because the scale on the x and y axis are not the same.

[Cane_man]

it is distorted for sure and not to scale... it was more for informational purposes :)

[customcutter]

Cane,

Thanks for the drawings, it goes a long way toward "splaining" things. I almost feel like I stayed at a Holiday Inn last night. Makes me realize that the only way we are going to get repeatable results is by "engineering" a ball cutter. At least for me, all that measuring and metrology seems like it is going to be time consuming.

CC

[Idz]

The picture nicely illustrates what is needed to cut an ogive. To cut a ball (zero ogive) just set the swivel axis offset to zero. I found the one problem with using my compound rest as the ogive cutter is that the piece being machined has to stick out of the chuck a long distance so the chuck clears the rest. I may try installing a steady rest pin to keep it from flexing too much.

[Cane_man]

well i got proof of concept today... took one of those swaged bullets above and sized it with a sizing die that i made today and compared it to the factory bullet:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-V2003_zps63049db6.jpg

a shootable bullet, imo, not perfect but usable... you see the d reamer, swaged bullet, factory bullet, and the point forming die that i made which needs to be scrapped because it flares the base... but like i said this was proof of concept to see if it could be done at home with a small hobby lathe, by someone who i consider myself not much of a craftsman... i am pleased and see the light at the end of the tunnel on this project

[plus1hdcp]

Looks more than shootable to me. Very nice looking bullet. I have enjoyed following your progress on this and looks like your well on your way. Good job.

[customcutter]

Cane, for a first attempt I say it looks very good. Now make 4 more and give us a range report. Maybe not MOA accuracy, but MOIntruder. Wish I had time to get back in the shop, but I am back on the truck for the fore see able future. Keep up the good work.

CC

[Cane_man]

thanks plus and cc... gonna be a few weeks but i will finish these swaging dies and then go to the range and see what happens

[newcastter]

Looking good Cane Man your are making some serious progress...great job

[Prospector Howard]

Hey Cane, that's looking real good. I like you're idea of making a 4 flute reamer for your next try. I've never used 12L14 steel before, because it seemed like it would be too soft. On your next attempt are you planning on trying to case harden it after you finish lapping it? I think surface hardening is about all you'll be able to do with that type of steel.

[Cane_man]

thanks Howard... for the next point forming die i will use O1... this first attempt with 12L14 was just to learn and get my feet wet, and it does case harden pretty well but it is somewhat of a pain the **** to do so... the O1 is easy to heat up to orange in my little coffee can oven and hold for 2 minutes, quench in oil, then temper at 350F for 1 hour... gonna make the 4 fluted reamer next, hopefully this weekend

[progman]

Anyone else make the dies from ASTM O6? I have been working with it for awhile now and think it works great. I can core swage with it dry but it takes more effort. The cores come out very very smooth and shiny when done dry and they are actually a bit more accurate but I don't think it's worth the extra effort. The first die set I did was made out of O1 and that worked well also but the O6 is smoother and easier to cut/lap.

I used a cheap radius cutter on my lathe. It will cut brass (for the laps) with ease but when cutting O1 steel (for D reamer) you have to go very slow because of flex. But even if the reamer doe snot turn out it doesn't matter because if you lap it out anyways. The worse your reamer is the more you have to lap.

[Cane_man]

^^^ where are you buying your O6 from? i can't seem to find it available anywhere... this is the steel Ted Smith recommends for die making

i just got some 41L40 to play around with

[teddyblu]

06 tool steel
http://www.peerlesssteel.com/productlist/toolsteel/

[Cane_man]

looks like they got it, but it seems like they are more oriented toward selling larger quantities to businesses and not so much geared for the smaller consumer like me... i.e. they got no shopping cart and if you want to buy something you fill out an RFQ... have you bought from them ?

[sprinkintime]

Cane man Just use Enco for you tool steels or McMaster Carr.

[teddyblu]

Sprinkintime
Does Enco or McMaster Carr supply 06 Tool Steel?

[customcutter]

Cane, I know you ran your bullet through a sizing die. Did you mic it afterwards? Also was wondering what the inner dimension is of the sizing die, and if you got any spring back???

thanks,
CC


well i got proof of concept today... took one of those swaged bullets above and sized it with a sizing die that i made today and compared it to the factory bullet:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-V2003_zps63049db6.jpg

a shootable bullet, imo, not perfect but usable... you see the d reamer, swaged bullet, factory bullet, and the point forming die that i made which needs to be scrapped because it flares the base... but like i said this was proof of concept to see if it could be done at home with a small hobby lathe, by someone who i consider myself not much of a craftsman... i am pleased and see the light at the end of the tunnel on this project

[Cane_man]

^^^ cc, i mic'ed it after it went thru the sizer and it was 0.224, i don't know the ID of the sizer as i only check dimensions when lapping by running a bullet thru and measuring but the sizer is supposed to be 0.224, so as far as i can tell there was no spring back but i dont know for sure since i dont know the ID... i just have a caliper so i didn't really "mic" it, so i decided to get one and it should be in tomorrow... i figured it is a good investment as i am getting deeper into this addicting hobby and maybe it will prevent a Kaboom

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XGTTs-2zL.jpg

[deltaenterprizes]

This issue of the Home Shop Machinist has an article about using the compound as a radius turner

[customcutter]

Cane,

Didn't mean for you to buy a mic, caliper measurements were good enough. I don't have ability to measure inside of a die either. I know what you mean about ordering accessories though. I just sent in an order to Enco this AM for $200 worth of items. They have a 20% off everything code and free shipping code that ends today at midnight.

Codes are TW625 for 20% off and SHIP625 for free shipping. Codes are good even on sale items and shipping on everything except equipment IIRC.:grin:

CC

[customcutter]

This issue of the Home Shop Machinist has an article about using the compound as a radius turner

Delta,

Need to do a search on Home Shop Machinist. There's probably a thread in the Shop Made Tools on how to make a "ball turner" or "radius turner". I know I've seen plans on one of the forums that I've looked at in the past couple of years.

CC

[Cane_man]

no worries cc, been wanting to get a mic for a while and this just gave me the excuse :lovebooli

learned a new skill this afternoon, how to remove a stuck bullet from the point forming die:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/stuck001_zpsb69926b2.jpg

flip the die upside down, screw in a dry wall screw in the stuck bullet, flip the die back over and grab on to the screw head with some pliars, then tap tap tap with a hammer on the pliars and it comes out! what a relief, its time to call it a day and have a bud light :drinks:

[deltaenterprizes]

Same way I did it but I used a fulcrum to pry it out with the die gripped in a vise

[Cane_man]

this instrument is fantastic, takes all the guess work out of it... a little pricey, but its a one and done type of tool, i am sure the wife won't mind when she finds out [smilie=1:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XGTTs-2zL.jpg


i am starting to think that 12L14 will be fine for the point forming die... this is not a high pressure/stress die like the derimming and core seating dies are... it is so easy to cut and polish, i know it is a low strength/wear steel but i will not be making thousands of bullets per year, and if it does wear it is no biggie to make a new one once you get the spoon reamer dialed in, and they bullets will be run thru a sizer anyway...

i made a point forming die yesterday with O1 and a 4 flute reamer, didn't turn out so well and the stuck case above was from that attempt... making a new spoon today and new die, using the 12L14

[Idz]

Looks like you're making great progress with your dies. Any thoughts on a two-piece die with a body section and a point section? It sure would eliminate the stuck bullet problem. The only thing I can't figure out on a two piece die is how to hold the two pieces together for reaming and polishing. Maybe solder would be sufficient?

[customcutter]

Heat treated and tempered the D-reamers this AM. Apparently I missed either on the "cherry red" color or the small toaster oven was way warmer than 450*. I tried making another die, (because I thought part of the 4 flute reamer was still stuck in the first die) and broke the 3/32 bit with about .010" to go through. I finished threading it and cut it off a little short, and was able to punch it out from the other side. It's almost exactly the length of the bushing in the top of my reloading press. Tried reaming it with the second reamer and the die (4140PH) started cutting into the reamer.

I spent the rest of the afternoon trying to figure out some way to use one of my two QCTP as an ogive cutter. Can't be done, the geometry just isn't there. So finally I pulled the compound off to see how I could attach a radius cutter. I've got a piece of 1" Al that's 4"X8", I can cut it in half and make the base. All I've got to do now is figure out how to get my 3 jaw off and install the 4 jaw, so that I can bore out the center pivot hole. That or I can go buy a 22mm drill and reamer.

CC

[customcutter]

Cane,

You made the 4 flute reamer and the die from O1. You're not making the reamers out of 12L14 are you? Sorry, I forgot you can case harden it. I'm going to read a few more articles on heat treating W1.

CC

[deltaenterprizes]

Delta,

Need to do a search on Home Shop Machinist. There's probably a thread in the Shop Made Tools on how to make a "ball turner" or "radius turner". I know I've seen plans on one of the forums that I've looked at in the past couple of years.

CC
I have a couple of them, OP was asking if it could be done that way.

[Cane_man]

Cane,

You made the 4 flute reamer and the die from O1. You're not making the reamers out of 12L14 are you? Sorry, I forgot you can case harden it. I'm going to read a few more articles on heat treating W1.

CC

i made the reamers from W1, it turns and files easily, heat treats well and quenches fine in water, does well with tempering at 350F for 1 hour... i heat the W1 to orange in my little coffee can oven and map gas torch and hold it there for 2 minutes rotating 90* every 30 seconds then quench in plain water (as opposed to brine water)

i am not going to even case harden the 12L14 point forming die, i think it will be fine

edit: forgot to add after tempering i use some diamond hones that i have to put an edge on it, not a razor edge but it is fairly sharp, need to leave some meat under the edge to give it strength

[Cane_man]

Looks like you're making great progress with your dies. Any thoughts on a two-piece die with a body section and a point section? It sure would eliminate the stuck bullet problem. The only thing I can't figure out on a two piece die is how to hold the two pieces together for reaming and polishing. Maybe solder would be sufficient?

i have thought about a 2 piece die, and fooled around with one for point forming 10mm... what would happen is the case would catch on the seam for the die halves and either wrinkle or crumple, so i ditched the idea as being beyond my skill set... when i turned them i did the two halves separately in the lathe

[customcutter]

i made the reamers from W1, it turns and files easily, heat treats well and quenches fine in water, does well with tempering at 350F for 1 hour... i heat the W1 to orange in my little coffee can oven and map gas torch and hold it there for 2 minutes rotating 90* every 30 seconds then quench in plain water (as opposed to brine water)

i am not going to even case harden the 12L14 point forming die, i think it will be fine

I think I would have done better by heating to orange. Seems I read on one site last night to hold for 1 hr/in of thickness, or alternatively to heat slightly hotter for a few minutes, if you didn't hold temp for the required length of time. I used the small propane torch this AM instead of firing up the acetylene torch. Propane is probably hot enough, I just tried to hold it at cherry red instead of going on to orange.

[customcutter]

I have a couple of them, OP was asking if it could be done that way.

Delta,

You're right, when I first read his post I was trying to visualize what he was doing. Now that I went through all the motions myself this afternoon, I see it. I did a google search last night and there are tons of them that come up.

[Cane_man]

made a new reamer and new point forming die, got closer this time but not yet close enough:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-v2005_zps2e3f8fb8.jpg

this is just plain fun! :guntootsmiley:

from left to right:

d reamer: i tried to make a fluted reamer, it ended up being a 2 flute reamer- it took along time and i didn't think it did as good as the d reamer which is pictured above... i decided it is easier to make and use the d reamer type, so i am going to use this style from now on- and Ted Smith says so that settles it... so easy to make on the lathe, a little file work, heat treat and good to go... note: the pic above is the new d reamer i made for the point forming die

lastest bullet version: pretty close to the production bullet (next to it on the right), but not close enough for me and my OCD (i need to wash my hands again)... ogive is a little larger probably 7s or 8s, but closer than my last attempt, a shooter but i am sure the BR guys would laugh at it... notice the rim line on the shank, this is done by design so as not draw the case too thin during derimming so as to leave more material on the bullet and make it stronger, plus i like the line :)

point forming die: made from 12L14... i decided this is the way to go for me using this material, easy to polish to a mirror finish and bullet ejection is easy (my stuck bullet from prior post above was from O1)... got a bullet shaped leather lap off of evilbay, will post pics later but this and some Flitz metal polish is da bomb, forget the sand paper...

sizing die: made from O1 heat treated and tempered sizing at 0.2237, pretty close, but would like 0.2240-0.2243, will polish more tomorrow... the sizing die makes so much sense for me as it is really difficult to avoid a taper on the shank portion of the point forming die, really easy to point form over sized by a mil or 0.00075 or so then square it up to spec in a sizing die... what could be the problem with this? -the bullet pushed thru the sizer with very little effort (much less than when sizing cast boolits)...



after i made this latest reamer, it finally dawned on me how to accurately cut the ogive for the d reamer using the cross slide and a few angled cuts, so i am going to make another d reamer and point forming die with this method, if it works i will post the details... i had been eyeballing the angled cuts before and guestimating with a method i worked out but it is turning out to be a fail, but now i think know how to exactly get the cuts in an easy manner...

i am going to make about 20 of these bullets and get a chrony on them and see if they will group, happy Independence Day to me... they could all key hole or fall apart out of the barrel but that is all part of the fun... out for now

[Prospector Howard]

Cane, I must be missing something. Like I said before, I've never used 12L14 before. In one of your previous posts you said you were not going to harden the die now. I did a quick search on 12L14 and it comes at Rockwell B82? Man, that's not much harder than brass. If you don't case harden it, that die won't last very long.
this instrument is fantastic, takes all the guess work out of it... a little pricey, but its a one and done type of tool, i am sure the wife won't mind when she finds out [smilie=1:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XGTTs-2zL.jpg


i am starting to think that 12L14 will be fine for the point forming die... this is not a high pressure/stress die like the derimming and core seating dies are... it is so easy to cut and polish, i know it is a low strength/wear steel but i will not be making thousands of bullets per year, and if it does wear it is no biggie to make a new one once you get the spoon reamer dialed in, and they bullets will be run thru a sizer anyway...

i made a point forming die yesterday with O1 and a 4 flute reamer, didn't turn out so well and the stuck case above was from that attempt... making a new spoon today and new die, using the 12L14

[Cane_man]

Howard, that is where i am at right now, this point forming doe just doesn't see much pressure so i figured i wouldn't even harden it... but what do you mean when you say the die won't last long if it is not hardened?

[Prospector Howard]

Cane, what I'm thinking is the wear factor. When two materials with virtually the same hardness are rubbed together, it doesn't take very long to wear. The top edge of the jacket is going to be scraping into the die where it starts forming the ogive, and it's almost like constantly lapping at the point of contact. I'll bet once you start making bullets, you'll be like me and make more bullets than you thought you would; and having a die last will make it more enjoyable.

[Cane_man]

that makes sense, Howard... i suppose when i make the next die i will try O1 again as it is much easier to heat treat than it is to case harden

[Reload3006]

you should try a2 or a6 same price usually everyone who has o1 will have a2 or a6 and you dont have to quench it its air hardening.

[Cane_man]

reload i looked into those air quenched drill rods but they are 3x more expensive and harder than the O1... i dont mind quenching in oil, its a cheap thrill for me to see the surface of the oil on fire as the part is quenched [smilie=w:

[customcutter]

Cane,

Go wash your hands again. That definetly isn't good enough. You need to start over immediately, right after you mail me that point forming die.:bigsmyl2: You are getting seriously close, I wouldn't be suprised at how shootable that bullet might be. What did it mic, and what did it weigh? What weight core are you using and does it fill the jacket to the tip?

You asked about shoving the swaged bullets through a final sizing die. As long as the bullets are still concentric, this would be a good safety check to prevent an over sized bullet. However, if the bullet isn't concentric to start with I don't think you will fix it by swaging through a final sizing die. All it will do is move the excess material up into the ogive section without distributing it evenly.

thanks for keeping us posted on your progress. I and others will be trying to do the same thing. For now I've started working on a "ball turner". Cut a section of 3/4" Al last night, cut into an octagon to minimize the interupted cut. Then I mounted the 4jaw. Double checked the diameter of the opening in the cross feed, and realized the piece of Al is almost 1/8" to small to cover the top of the cross feed. I guess I'll cut a piece of 1/8" and mount to the bottom to act as a skirt to keep swarf out. I'm thinking I'll need to be able to make repeatable reamers and laps, and the ball turner will do that.

CC

[Cane_man]

cc, good to see you climbed off the mower long enough to get in some shop time... [smilie=2:

the bullet above weighed 54.8gr and the lead fills the tip, it mic'ed at the 4 quarters of the shank at 0.2236 to 0.2238 after going through the sizer, i guess the BR guys look for no more than half a mil runout and still be acceptable so this looks like it should be OK

what is a ball turner? is that like a ball buster, sounds like it could be painful... are you making this tool?

if you could easily make repeatable reamers and laps you could be in the $$$, i am sure lots of guys would want one as this point forming die and associated reamer is a whole order of magnitude or two higher in difficulty compared to making the other dies...

[customcutter]

^^^ They go by different names. Some folks call them ball turners, others call them a radius turner. I figure it's the only way you are going to get a repeatable arc to form the ogive.

We got rained out early yesterday. I think I've seen 30 minutes of sunshine in the last 3 days, and we have another 70% chance of showers tomorrow. Thanks God, we're only 5 houses behind for the week. Looks like we'll be working the 4th though unless things go a lot better tomorrow.

[Cane_man]

Cane, what I'm thinking is the wear factor. When two materials with virtually the same hardness are rubbed together, it doesn't take very long to wear. The top edge of the jacket is going to be scraping into the die where it starts forming the ogive, and it's almost like constantly lapping at the point of contact. I'll bet once you start making bullets, you'll be like me and make more bullets than you thought you would; and having a die last will make it more enjoyable.

Howard, you were right on ^^^ the first night i made 15 no problems at all, today i tried to make a few more and all but two out of 7 were stuck cases! it started to wear after those first 20 and it took the finish off... back to O1 and heat treating, no worries though as i think i got it down now on all aspects of making this die... i am really good now at removing stuck cases ;)

in the mean time, soldiers dressed for battle and ready to test (these survived the point forming die from hell!):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/7-3-13_zpsb3b5557d.jpg

[Cane_man]

got out to my spot today, it was a 105F :( got two groups and some chrony data...

both groups were prone with no bags, group on the left is at 120 yards and the right is 50 yards (i ran out of targets for the left one, it was hard to see and there was glare on it- thats what i am telling myself anyway):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/group1002_zps42ddf91d.jpg

i know for many of you this isn't that great, but my hope was that they wouldn't keyhole or spin apart and it was more for proof of concept, so i am more than satisfied with this result knowing that there is significant room for improvement...

used 22.2 grains of Varget and they chronied at 2506 fps average with a 5 fps standard deviation which is crazy good, i was using Quick Load and trying to get 2658 fps, so there is room for load development here... i didn't want to push these bullets yet until i could see how they performed, but i think they could be pushed to 3000 fps... i think that with an optimized load at a range with bags i could probably cut those groups in half, and with an optimized and improved ogive there is more room to improve as well... right now these are good enough for small game and plinking, but i would be pleased with 1" groups at 100 yards...

[customcutter]

Cane,

I know you and I both are looking for MOA accuracy eventually. I am impressed by these as a first attempt. They are well within the limits I have set for myself of MOIntruder. Did you seperate your jackets by type of brass? That could be an influencing factor as well. I would think difference in weight would cause vertical stringing of the group. Don't know what would cause horizontal stringing? Possibly concentricity? Possibly mirage at 105*? Congrats on your first attempt.

[customcutter]

Started working on the radius/ball turner the other night. I thought I might be able to somehow use the compound for the base, so I was checking everything again. Still no way I can figure to do it, unless I'm turning <.50 balls. Mean while I was looking at the pivot pin for the compound to mount the ball turner on and realized it will not line up with the center line of the headstock and tailstock. It likes about .5 inch of going to center. So I started looking at mounting it in the holes for the steady follower on the opposite side of the cross feed, and same problem. I finally came up with a solution of mounting a 1" plate using the holes for the steady follower, with the plate extending back to the front of the crossfeed, and machining a new pivot pin in it. Now all I have to do is get into the shop and get started on it.

CC

[Cane_man]

oh i finally get it you are making a radial attachment to your lathe so you can attach some type of grinder or cutting tool to it and turn the ogive... i thought about doing that but decided to cut the angles first because it was easier, i may have to make the radial cutting arm if my latest revelation doesn't pan out as expected...

i didn't sort the brass just derimmed whatever was there, same for the finished bullets did not sort by size just shot what i had...

this rifle is a Tikka T3 Hunter .223 12" twist and it shoots dimed sized groups at 100 yards... i am not the greatest shot & no mirage factor, but i just couldn't get comfortable and i didn't have a rest as i was shooting prone on the side of a ravine, and the glare on the target was hard for me... next time i will take a fore and aft rest with me and some bags and get it real steady and make sure i have enough targets... really, though, i was just hoping the gun would not blow up and was shocked it actually hit the target nose first!

any of you guys sitting on the sidelines... if i can do this you certainly can do it better, you got no excuses now!

[progman]

Cane Man,

I had to contact a local tool steel distributor in Pittsburgh, PA and they had to have it shipped from Michigan. I paid A LOT for the O6. I got a 36" 3/4 thick piece and had to part with 80$ for it. The rep said it was so much because I didn't order over 200lbs or whatever the minimum order was. If you are interested I can get you the sales rep's contact info- I have it somewhere in the shop.

What do you guys think about going with a 4S bullet? I was thinking about trying this to see how much more weight I could get. With my currect die set I get ~52 grain bullet. I would like to be making 55Grain.

[Cane_man]

thanks prog, that is a little more than i want to pay... group buy? LOL, just kidding...

not sure about the 4S ogive... i know that if the center of mass is too far forward the bullets won't stabilize properly, but i dont know at what ogive geometry that is...

[garandsrus]

Look for small pieces of steel on eBay. I have gotten some very good deals.

[James Wisner]

I ordered a section of 3/4" round, ground 0-6 a few months ago from my normal steel suppler in Portland Ore., cost was 118.00, Ok I knew it was spendy but OK, just for swaging dies. When it showed up it was a 12 foot long piece, so have enough for my life time.
Have cut some of it up but need to write a CNC lathe program to thread and drill the ejection hole in them.
J Wisner

[Cane_man]

finally found a place that will sell O-6 "Graph-Mo" tool steel online, here is the link they have an impressive selection of available diameters:

http://kmac-distribution.com/tool-steel/o-6-rods.htm#.UdgsDKy1t31

they sell it in 12' lengths, and for the 9/16" i am interested in the cost before shipping is $153.46, which works out to $12.83 per foot, by comparison the O-1 i am using now i get for $6.17 per foot so the O-6 is basically double... the shipping must be outrageous for a 12' length, but i don't know for sure... anyway, this source looks promising as it is online and they have a great selection of sizes and have an online store that takes credit cards, all ordered with a click of a button no phone call, etc...

i am going to email them to see if they will sell in smaller quantities...

[Cane_man]

^^^ emailed kmac and they will only sell in 12' lengths... group buy?

i made a few more attempts at the point forming die with little success... i am updating here only to give one success and that is how to shape the ogive on the mini lathe if you are not going to make, or can't make or attach, a radial cutting/grinding attachment... i have used this new method now for 3 D reamers and am very happy with the result, here is a sketch of what you will do:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/ogive-calcs_zps21091163.jpg

note: drawing is not to scale but noted measurements are correct

looks complicated but isn't... all you are doing is making angled cuts with the cross slide, starting from the point, and you continue cutting until the angled line hits a specified point from where the ogive and shank meet... as you can it is pretty darn close, and it looks smaller because it is to allow for lapping of the die... this method is repeatable and easy to do

for example, on cut #1 it is at 20 degrees, and you keep advancing the cut until it intersects the drill rod blank at 0.237 from where the ogive/shank meet... you do this for 4 cuts and then you smooth it out with some sandpaper and cutting oil and it looks like this:

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/ogive005_zps39ec68c5.jpg

from there you make your fluted reamer or spoon and have at it... i can explain the math if you want, but you probably dont care but all you are doing is figuring out the angle of the tangent line, then figuring out at what point it intersects the drill rod, not very hard to do in excel... hope that made sense, if not ask questions...

back to the lathe, hope to have a good point forming die at the end of the weekend... lapping that dang die takes a looooooong time! 8-)

[customcutter]

Cane,
That's a good looking point. What are you lappin with now? Last I remember you were using a leather point? Are you lapping before or after heat treating?

Started on the ball turner on Sat. Got the base adapter made except for the 1" hole for the pivot point. I finished turning the piece that sits on the base and rotates. Now I have to mill a slot in it and make a tool holder to hold the cutter. Still working on figuring how to "measure" the ogive offset. Haven't decided yet whether to use a replaceable carbide insert, or mill a slot for a HSS insert in the tool holder. I leaning toward the replaceable carbide insert. I've been taking a few pics, I'll try to get them posted in a new thread in a few days.

CC

[Cane_man]

i have been lapping with sandpaper/oil, and polishing with a bullet shaped leather lap... since these points are so easy to turn i am thinking about making some ogive brass laps in a few different sizes and use them with lapping compound... i lap after reaming, then heat treat, then lap the final 0.002 or so... my lapping technique is poor, but i think the ogive shaped brass laps will be a big improvement...

seems like carbide inserts would be a better way to go...

ps: hope you are not close to that Zimmerman trial... when he is acquitted Team Tray-Tray will be out for a new flat screen and air jordans...

[customcutter]

The trial is in the central part of the state. I'm closer to the west coast. Unfortunately, I think we will see problems across the entire nation. I just hope that the Feds don't use it as an excuse to impose martial law. Who knows where that could end. It sounds like it should have never gone to trial, but got politicized and now anything is possible.

[Cane_man]

these guys will give you a quote for O-6 in whatever length you want:

http://www.diehlsteel.com/

they quoted me $43 for a 3' round bar of 9/16" i was looking for which includes shipping, so about $15 per foot delivered... a little pricey but 3' would make about 30 dies, and i would only really want to use it for the point forming die so it might be worth it since it is so hard to find in small quantities...

edit: cc, i think the way to go now might be to bulk ream with a D-reamer then finish ream with a fluted reamer... the D reamer is good at hogging out material but it will only go so far

[customcutter]

Started on the ogive/radius cutter again this AM. Machined the upright post to height for the carbide insert and drilled and tapped it. Put everything together and slipped it onto the lathe. One slight problem, while I moved the pivot point probably 1-1.5", it still isn't far enough to include the offset for the ogive. It liked about 1/8". So I'll get the 4 jaw remounted, and bore another hole in the bottom plate about 2" farther in. Also last time I bored the hole I got a slight taper some how. It is allowing the upper part of the fixture to "rock" slightly, not good. I also need to take a couple thousandths off the height of the cutter post, it looks good compared to the center drill height, but doesn't want to cut unless I rock it forward in the tapered pivot hole for the post. I'll rebore the base first and see if that solves the problem, if not I'll take it down a .001" at a time till it cuts properly.

[customcutter]

Got back in the shop between thunder storms. Got the 4 jaw mounted but was unable to get the base aligned to drill/bore the new pivot hole. Finally realized I could turn the cutter to the back side and run the spindle in reverse. Shaved .005 off of the height of the post. Also found the reason for the rocking, I had used a fly cutter on the mill to face one side of the base. Apparently the mill spindle wasn't indicated properly to the table and it didn't make a flat cut. A few strokes across some 150 grit on the surface plate trued everything up. Still a slight "rock", but much better than before. So I chucked up a piece of 1/4 brass just to see how it worked. Way to much deflection even with only about 2" protruding from the chuck.

Looks like I'll be persuing Teddyblu's method and trying to set up some type of grinder. The radius cutter would possibly work with larger calibers for cutting ogives, but I think that .224 is beyond it's limits. At least I can replace all those plastic knobs on my lathe and mills.

[Cane_man]

Got back in the shop between thunder storms. Got the 4 jaw mounted but was unable to get the base aligned to drill/bore the new pivot hole. Finally realized I could turn the cutter to the back side and run the spindle in reverse. Shaved .005 off of the height of the post. Also found the reason for the rocking, I had used a fly cutter on the mill to face one side of the base. Apparently the mill spindle wasn't indicated properly to the table and it didn't make a flat cut. A few strokes across some 150 grit on the surface plate trued everything up. Still a slight "rock", but much better than before. So I chucked up a piece of 1/4 brass just to see how it worked. Way to much deflection even with only about 2" protruding from the chuck.

Looks like I'll be persuing Teddyblu's method and trying to set up some type of grinder. The radius cutter would possibly work with larger calibers for cutting ogives, but I think that .224 is beyond it's limits. At least I can replace all those plastic knobs on my lathe and mills.

brass isn't quite as "stiff" as tool steel and i when i make my angled cuts i don't need a live center... can you maybe use a center drill to just "dimple" the end and use a live center?

i agree that if you are going to make some type of radius grinder that teddy's design is the way to go... i have one of those Rotozip tools and if need be i could pursue that method...

man, my house feels like it is listing right now as i need to get my land legs back after being on a ship for 8 days! :veryconfu

[Honorstick]

Just thought I would post up a pic of the fixture I built for cutting D reamers, this is just a proof of concept fixture but it works pretty darn good. The spitzer shape in the lathe is no real size or ogive, just a test cut, the 9mm is the one I turned up this morning now I just have to make up some reamers and see what I can do from there.784427844378444

[Cane_man]

looking good honor

[Honorstick]

Thanks Cane

I wanted something that would allow me to swap out the compound and allow me to use the QCTP. I just used some scrap I had laying around along with a piec of unistrut that just happened to fit the T-nut on my tool post and believe it or not it's a pretty solid set up. Eventually I'll build something a little more professional looking but for testing it'll work fine.

[customcutter]

Honor,
Good looking setup. I think the pivot point being on the upper left side of your compound helps with the amount of material you have sticking out of the chuck. In my case the base is 4" wide, so I have to have at least 2"+ protruding from the chuck to avoid hitting the jaws on the compound and base. I'm thinking I'll just put another piece of plate in the base and mount the grinder to that. Looking for suitable grinder now that I can easily mount.

Cane,
The smallest center drill I have would leave a 1/8" meplat. Maybe I could just use a "regular" drill???

[customcutter]

Thought I had it figured out for a second. I remembered I had a "radius dressing fixture" for my surface grinder. Figured maybe I could dress the grinding wheel to the ogive needed, then find some way to rotate the .250" rod and present it at 90* to the dressed wheel. Only one problem so far, the diamond points for dressing the wheel are mounted on a shaft that is only about 1.5" long, and just eyeballing it I think I'd need one about 2.5" long to get the correct ogive. Also not sure how the wheel would react with that type of a grind in it. Should be OK as long as it's not too thin at the edge. Maybe I could make another shaft and insert the diamond dresser into it.

[Cane_man]

i have these size 0 center drills, i think the first part of the bit is 3/64, really nice and small "dimple", if you want one i can send you one as i think i got 4 for $5 off evilbay, pm your address if you want one

keep noodling it our cc, i know you will get it...

[Reload3006]

you can get center drills fairly inexpensively from most industrial suppliers McMaster Carr, Carr lane, Granger and others. But if you have a center drill you dont need to drill all the way into your piece to get a start for your drill just tick it and it will start your drill. Or if your going to be enlarging the hole anyway then the smaller drill will follow the hole you started with the center drill even if its larger.

[Cane_man]

if you are making D-Reamers or fluted reamers i think just giving the end a small dimple with the center drill helps when you are making the flutes or milling the reamer in half as it makes it very easy to see when you are at the halfway point in taking off the material...

[wonderwolf]

Just thought I would post up a pic of the fixture I built for cutting D reamers, this is just a proof of concept fixture but it works pretty darn good. The spitzer shape in the lathe is no real size or ogive, just a test cut, the 9mm is the one I turned up this morning now I just have to make up some reamers and see what I can do from there.784427844378444

I'm confused how this works exactly, do you step then blend or do you "shift" as you cut?

[customcutter]

wonderwolf,

I think he has his tool post mounted to the angle iron, and the whole thing is pivoting on the bolt at the end of the angle iron.

[Honorstick]

wonderwolf,

I think he has his tool post mounted to the angle iron, and the whole thing is pivoting on the bolt at the end of the angle iron.

That's correct. I set the saddle where I want and lock it down and then I can use the cross slide to feed in on each successive pass and I can swing the tool holder by moving the unistrut based on the pivot point that's to the rear of the workpiece. Hope that helps clarify it a little bit.

I haven't been able to make much progress on a more permanent (and more proffesional looking) setup due to lots of doctor visits and health issues but it's still on my to do list.

[bearcove]

You can do a radius, ONE distance from your center. Or do a tangential or secant ogive. Derived from a formula. Better BC, but then you need a form tool or CNC

The radius is part of a circle, the others aren't.

[customcutter]

Here is the latest attempt at an attachment to grind an ogive. I haven't had a chance to finish/try it yet, but it will have more power than the pencil grinder.

[Cane_man]

big improvement... how do you adjust the radius?

[customcutter]

big improvement... how do you adjust the radius?

Cane the large square block holding the grinder is mounted in a slot. It can be adjusted in and out along the cross feed axis. The grinding wheel is centered with the pivot point. I'm thinking that if the edge of the grinding wheel is 6 X diameter from the center pivot point (or whatever ogive you want), then move the cross feed in until the grinding wheel contacts the work at the desired diameter of the bullet, and rotate the grinder around the center pivot point. That's how I've got it figured out anyway. I hope it works, but I've been wrong before.

[Cane_man]

that is awsome cc, now that i have a real lathe i may have to make one of those so i don't have to use okie methods anymore... i notice the fine quality brand 'Chicago Electric", one of my favorites from HF!

[mtnman31]

Very interesting thread. I have no desire to swage my own at this point. My interest is in the machining processes.

[u.p. north]

Guys,
I have had a thought for a while about cutting the ogive on O-1 tool steel and offering it to use. It would basically be a reamer blank with the ogive cut on it and the O.D. would be .006 to .008 undersized of caliber. The only thing needing to be done would be cut the flutes on a mill and heat treat and sharpen it. I could also make laps out of leaded material or brass to match in .0002" increments. I have talked to a few of you threw p.m. and everyone thought this is a great idea. I am thinking a roughing and finishing reamer would be the way to go. I can cut the flutes in if you can't if necessary for extra. I would think $32.00 shipped in the U.S.A. would be a good starting price. If interested please p.m. me and if I am stepping on anybody's toes I don't mean to hi-jack this thread. I could start with .224 with any ogive you would like and go up to any caliber preferred. The .224 would be built out of .312 01 material and would be shipped the next day. U.P. North
These will be c.n.c. cut.

I am going to offer the first customer of each different caliber just has to pay the flat rate shipping. It will take a customer to say I will take such caliber followed by a private message to qualify.

[Cane_man]

^^^ i think this is a great idea!

[Cane_man]

Here is the latest attempt at an attachment to grind an ogive. I haven't had a chance to finish/try it yet, but it will have more power than the pencil grinder.

Ken, how is this working out for you?

I decided I need one too now that i have a real lathe... still haven't made any swarf with it still cleaning, lubing, figuring out how it works etc.

[customcutter]

Cane, I've been busy with some other projects. I built an AR-15 in 6.5 Grendel, got it put together, and finally sighted in. Been looking for a thread protector or muzzle device to fit, and finally decided to make my own. I've also been having a lot of migraines which has kept me out of the shop. Hope to get some time tomorrow, if no headache.

[Cane_man]

sorry to hear about the migraines, hope those clear up for you... AR-15 build in 6.5 Grendel, wow, would like to see pics of that for sure! what fun

what size and type of grinding wheel are you using, and where can i get them? thinking through the radius grinder attachment, i like your design, trying to figure out how i can get the leading edge of the grinding wheel aligned with the pivot point of the rotary tool holder, and also get the rotary tool on center with the lathe chuck dead center... thinking of threaded adjustments for the height of the tool (rotary tool centered on the lathe dead center), and some type adjustment to the turning radius (so the flat face of the grinding wheel can be aligned with the radius of the turning center)... from there is would be easy to make something to slide the tool along the radius line and then lock it in on the correct radius (6S or whatever)... sounds confusing i need to make a sketch or two

or, would it be easier to use a carbide tool like in this pic here, that way you would not have to adjust for the grinding wheel as it wears:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=78442&d=1375814238

^^^ clever

i have an extra qctp i could use (dont ask why i have an extra now), seems like it would be fairly easy to set it up, and no grinding grit to clean up... look how easy his setup is, the tool holder adjusts the height of the tool to be on center with the lathe chuck center, the tool post can pivot to align on center with the turning radius, then the length of the cutting radius is adjusted along those green tracks...

[customcutter]

Cane,

His setup is good that the pivot point is in the upper left corner. It gives you better clearance of the chuck than mine, which pivots in the middle. It is also better in the respect that you aren't grinding on your lathe. (If you do grind, sand, whatever on the lathe, make sure you clean up any grit deposited on the ways. The grit will ruin them in short order.) My setup is using the HF grinder, I also picked up a diamond set of wheels, with 1/4" shaft. I made the piece that holds the grinder first, inserted it into the piece then measured how far the grinding wheel stuck through the other side, put that distance on center line with your pivot point. In order to line up the center line(cutting/grinding height), I placed the grinder holder on top of the piece it would mount in and pivot on. I used a center drill and dragged the piece across it for a reference line. I then elevated that reference line by the amount I was going to cut the groove, in the base, to hold it in. It's not as important as when you are setting the height on a cutting tool because you are grinding. Hope this is clearer than mud. If not ask more questions.

[Honorstick]

Hey guys just wanted to let you know that the setup I have does work very well and gives you pretty much unlimited possiblities on the ogive to be cut. It could bre "purtied" up quite a bit to make things a little more robust. I haven't been using it much or even been in the shop much for a while now do to some health issues I've been battling for what seems like an eternity but I do try and follow this thread a little bit so if you have any questions on what I did for that frankenstein tool I'll do my best to try and answer them. :drinks:

[Cane_man]

^^^ is that unistrut that you are using to mount the qctp on? if so what size, and what size bar did you use inside the unistrut to secure the qctp?

i like your design very much and see how easy it is to accurately align the cutting tool on the radius and easily adjust the radius

[Honorstick]

^^^ is that unistrut that you are using to mount the qctp on? if so what size, and what size bar did you use inside the unistrut to secure the qctp?

i like your design very much and see how easy it is to accurately align the cutting tool on the radius and easily adjust the radius

Yes it is unistrut, it's the shorter stuff and the plate that holds the QCTP is the same piece that holds the tool post to my Southbend 9 lathe. I don't have the exact sizes right off hand but I'll try to remember to get them for you tomorrow after I get home from church.

[customcutter]

Honorstick, as I said I think your design with the pivot point on the left side allows you to get your cutting tool closer to the chuck. That was one reason I had to go with a grinder. When I tried to use a cutter, I had twice as much 1/4" rod sticking out of the chuck as you did, and therefore I had a LOT of deflection, not good when trying to cut and accurate diameter or ogive. Dang, now I may have to try a 3rd design.:groner:

[Cane_man]

had to make a few sketches to understand the concept, hope these makes sense...

what this is trying to show is if you are looking down on top of the work how the tool bit will be aligned, what direction the tool bit moves as the work progresses, and when the last cut is finished how the ogive is tangent to the outside diameter of the drill rod (drawings are to scale for a 6s ogive):

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/ogive-direction-1_zpsda1a6b86.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/ogive-direction-2_zpsfa72e1cc.jpg

http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/ogive-direction-3_zpsc8ec6e1a.jpg

[Honorstick]

Cane, That's exactly how I used my setup.

I went down and measured roughly the unistrut and stuff for you, the unistrut is the 3/4 high x 1-7/8 wide x 10 lg the same T nut that holds the quick change on the lathe worked perfectly in the unistrut and it's roughly 1-1/4 wide x 3/8 thk. Hopefully that'll help.

I would like to build a more proffesional looking setup that would have a crank handle just like the compound rest for feeding the cutter, this would allow more precise and repeatable settings. God willing with my health issues I will get some more quality time in the shop to put this together and then I will try and do a full fledged set of plans for building one.

[Cane_man]

hope you feel better and recover 110%... thanks for giving me those measurements, that helps... i dont have a mill so i will have to bolt together pieces of cold rolled flat bar to make this thing, but i see a path now to getting this accomplished

[Honorstick]

hope you feel better and recover 110%... thanks for giving me those measurements, that helps... i dont have a mill so i will have to bolt together pieces of cold rolled flat bar to make this thing, but i see a path now to getting this accomplished

I don't have a mill either (hopefully someday) which is why I made this prototype out of scrap and off the shelf pieces, figured if I could slap somrthing together that way that worked it wouldn't be too hard to take it further without a mill.

[Cane_man]

Honor, how rigid is that unistrut? I have looked at several different ways to attach the QCTP, and because of height issues with the center line of the chuck there are not many options that will work... do you think the unistrut is a good option if you were going to make a new one? what else would you use?

[Honorstick]

Honor, how rigid is that unistrut? I have looked at several different ways to attach the QCTP, and because of height issues with the center line of the chuck there are not many options that will work... do you think the unistrut is a good option if you were going to make a new one? what else would you use?

My plan was to build something like the milling attachment I've seen plans for on the internet kind of like this one here http://www.vintageprojects.com/machine-shop/lathe-milling-attach-plans.pdf

Of course it would have to be modified somewhat to make it lay flat and on my Southbend I would replace the compound just like I did with the prototype I built. I only have a 9" lathe so I don't have much room either but I do know the pivot needs to be on the back side of the work.

I do think the unistrut is plenty rigid for this in such a short length and for the lighter cuts we take doing this. The plate I used under that unistrut to mount on the lathe is just an old plate of a piece of farm machinery that's only about a 3/8 thick and the boss I turned to fit the compound mount on the lathe was 2 inch trailer hitch ball and then press fit that into the plate and peened it a few times to make it good and solid. I think the biggest improvement would be a threaded dial feed to advance the tool post for repeatable and accurate cuts which shouldn't be too hard to accomplish

[Cane_man]

Honor, did you take off the compound slide to mount your radius attachment, and attach it to the cross slide?

[Swede44mag]

this instrument is fantastic, takes all the guess work out of it... a little pricey, but its a one and done type of tool, i am sure the wife won't mind when she finds out [smilie=1:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41XGTTs-2zL.jpg


i am starting to think that 12L14 will be fine for the point forming die... this is not a high pressure/stress die like the derimming and core seating dies are... it is so easy to cut and polish, i know it is a low strength/wear steel but i will not be making thousands of bullets per year, and if it does wear it is no biggie to make a new one once you get the spoon reamer dialed in, and they bullets will be run thru a sizer anyway...

i made a point forming die yesterday with O1 and a 4 flute reamer, didn't turn out so well and the stuck case above was from that attempt... making a new spoon today and new die, using the 12L14

Where did you get the Digital Mike and what model is it?
I need to add one of these toy's to my machinest tool collection.

[Cane_man]

can't remember whey i got it swede, just bing "Mitutoyo 1" micrometer" and it will give you many options, about $120 but worth it

[Honorstick]

Honor, did you take off the compound slide to mount your radius attachment, and attach it to the cross slide?

Yes sir, I did remove the compound and mounted the ogive cutter attachment in it's place.