30-30 hunting load

[buggybuilder]

Will be taking my grandson to the U.P. (Mich.) this year for his first deer hunt. He is kind of a fine built young man that needs a small type rifle. I was going to let him use my Win. 94 30-30 with a cast bullet.
My load: 13 gr. of 4227 with a 160 gr. plain base cast bullet (no gascheck). I don't know what the fps is, and I don't think that the deer will care either. This is an accurate load for my rifle.
My question is: Is this an adequate deer load for a 30 yard shot from a blind? Having never used a cast bullet on deer, will they mushroom well?
Or are there any other suggestions?
Thanks

buggybuilder

[RickinTN]

I'll try to help but I know more knowledgeable folks will be along soon. Whether they will mushroom with your load is dependent on the alloy. I'll take a wild guess and say your velocity is somewhere in the 1,300 fps range or so. I think most would want a little more velocity. I think somewhere in the 1,600 to 1,900 fps range would be more attractive. To answer your question "Will it work at 30yds?" Probably, but a little more power would probably be desirable.
Let see what everyone else thinks,
Rick

[buggybuilder]

The reason for the low velocity is the recoil factor and the shooters size.

[RPRNY]

There's nothing wrong with the load but, as per above, at a terminal velocity in the 1300 - 1400 fps range, you want something like BHN 8-10 for expansion. Something like 25 -1 pure lead to tin? That's going to be a deerslayer for sure! It's smart thinking to give him plenty of bullet but at velocity that won't be unmanageable. Soft alloy will be the key.

[FergusonTO35]

I think you would be surprised at how fast you can push a lead slug in the .30 WCF before recoil becomes noticeable. I'm currently shooting the Lee 150 grain GC flat point at 1700 fps or so powered by 26 grains of IMR 4895. Awesome accuracy from my Marlins and just a gentle nudge on the shoulder to let you know it's not a .22!

[OnHoPr]

Let him get use to that load and the rifle. Then up the load in a fashion that would be more appropriate for deer. He will feel more comfortable with it. An un-recovered first deer might not be that memorable.

[jmort]

"My load: 13 gr. of 4227 with a 160 gr. plain base cast bullet (no gascheck). I don't know what the fps is, and I don't think that the deer will care either."

What RPRNY said.

[northmn]

It is more powerful than some pistol loads but I do agree that it is the alloy that matters. The old 32-40 took its share of deer and was in that category. One trick I use on my 30-30 cast load is that I size a round nose with a flat nose punch which possibly gives a little more expansion. I also think you might be able to load up a bit without increasing recoil substantially.

DP

[helice]

Should be plenty. Just make em soft.

[Dan Cash]

Your load is too light for a reliable kill, especially from a first time hunter. You don't say how old your grandson is but if he is too small to handle .30-30 recoil, he is too young/small to hunt.

[buggybuilder]

I guess that is your opinion!!

[helice]

In every hunting situation the key is boolit placement. If your grandson can keep his cool and place his boolit where he knows it's supposed to go, you'll need to teach him how to skin a deer. Send us all some pictures after he fills his tag. I love to see kids grinning.

[hicard]

buggybuilder, that load should be doing around 1215 fps. If you up it to 17 grs, your velocity will be around 1535 fps and 18 grs will get your velocity around 1613 fps which should work ok with the pb boolit.

[bayjoe]

Just my two cents. If the boy gets plenty of practice with the rifle and load, then I think the boy will do just fine

[richhodg66]

I may get flamed because it doesn't involve cast, but my youngest was/is kind of recoil shy. Hogdon publishes youth loads and I used their recommendation of a 125 grain spritzer and 37 grains of H4895. Accuracy was great and recoil and muzzle blast very minimal. He's killed a few deer with that load now and still wants to use it. None of these deer were very far away, but it seems to kill them just as quick as full house .308 loads do.

No reason in the world you couldn't duplicate that level of ballistics with a .30-30. Obviously, the pointed bullets wouldn't be right, but you could figure that out.

[Scharfschuetze]

Buggy,

You asked for opinions in your original post and you received an honest one from Dan. I teach hunter safety to young hunters and I commend you for getting the young man into the field. On the other hand, your young friend may be under gunned with this load. I have had to fail a few aspiring hunters because they were just too small to safely handle even a youth sized firearm at the practical shooting portion of the hunter safety course. It always upsets the fathers and uncles and I've been called many less than civil names by them and survived complaints to the state HS coordinator. In the end, hunting is not about feeling good and group hugs, it's about safely and competently dropping your game humanely. Can you really assure a humane kill from a novice hunter with a "plinking" load? Remember, you asked for comments.

Lord knows deer have been dropped with 32/20s and the like, but shot placement will be critical. I'd spend more than a few trips to the range with the lad to ensure that he can hit accurately, even with the buck fever of a new hunter in the often cold temperatures of a deer stand.

I don't know if your state has a minimum energy level for big game, but your light load probably would not make the required foot pounds of energy minimum of the state that I grew up in. As I recall, a full power 30/30 was just at the minimum level and of course my brother and I dropped many a buck with the 170 grain factory load. I would check your state's game and fish regulations and make sure your proposed light load would be legal.

If Hicard's prediction of 1215 fps for your load is correct, then the paper energy of the load will be about 525 foot pounds.

[Green Lizzard]

32-20 and 32-40 have killed lotsa critters

[RPRNY]

To those suggesting that 150 grs of soft lead arriving at 1100 - 1200 fps will be "ineffective ", how? Will these bullets bounce off ? Will they annoy these up-armoured deer and endanger the boy and his Grandfather, who will presumably be chased from the woods by enraged Uber - deer? Do you imagine that deer are so much more substantial than humans? We are talking about a load with a minimal terminal performance between 9mm and 357 Mag muzzle velocity. What are deer lungs made out of in your part of the country?

If the boy misses (or puts one in the gut) with a 30-06 or. 375 H&H or whatever it is you think he should be shooting deer at 30 yards, will the result be anything better than a long chase and possible loss? Because if the little fellow is forced to shoot artillery all summer in preparation for deer season, he's going to have a phenomenal flinch come opening day. On the other hand, if he hits lungs with 150 gr soft lead arriving at @ 1100 - 1200, any whitetail that hasn't escaped from a Monsanto feed lot or Hollywood set is going to run 3o yards and take a dirt nap. If junior is putting rounds loaded like this in 5" at 50 yds with boring regularity come Sept 1, hop it up to 1400 - 1500 fps MV and see if he is okay with it. In the mean time, best find a way to mount a healthy bayonet on that 30-30 so when the 'roid raged buck shrugs off 4 or 5 of those 150 grainers and comes after you, you'll be able to make a last stand under the old oak tree...:p

[waksupi]

Edited my original post, let 'er rip.

[Salmoneye]

This data with 170gr lead and 13gr of H4227 shows 1400+FPS:

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/3030w170_dat.htm

So I quesstimate that your 160gr will be doing at least that...

As pointed out, make em soft...

[762sultan]

If this new hunter is confident with his shooting skills and the rifle he carries, it goes a long way towards being successful. I was always taught that it does not matter as much what a game animal is shot with but where the bullet was placed. If he has any fear of recoil it might make him hesitate to pull the trigger. Confidence in his ability is needed.

[uscra112]

Quickload says 160 grain boolit + 13 grains 4227 + 18 inch barrel = 1400fps and 500 foot-lbs. Really too little for deer unless the shooter is an expert shot who can be guaranteed to hit the spinal column dead on. Seems to me that the O.P. is setting the boy up for a failure, unless Gramps is ready to fire a very quick second shot from something more powerful. Just my $.02 worth.

[buggybuilder]

RPRNY
Thanks for your input. Your thoughts ran about the same as mine. I KNOW that many, many, many years ago a .22LR at the speed of 1235fps will kill a deer. (These were my very young and stupid years.)
I too feel that a .30-30 with a cast bullet will kill a deer in the baitpile at 30 yards. But I will soften my mix as some of you guys have suggested.
Thanks

[gnoahhh]

I have been killing deer with .30 cast bullets for 45 years now, and I've learned a few things along the way. Those that I shot with powder puff loads like the one described by the OP died hard, even with proper bullet placement and dead soft bullets. By which I mean they ran quite a ways and required follow up shots to finish off. The only way I would use a light load like that anymore would be if I could guarantee the placement of the bullet where it'll damage the spinal chord either in the neck or up high above the shoulder, or jelly brain it with a head shot. If the kid has ice water in his veins and can coolly stick that slow moving bullet right there, then go ahead. I haven't met many kids on their first hunting trip with that kind of stability.

It isn't about proud papa (or grandpa) puffing up his chest and bragging about a kids prowess or overestimating a kids coolness in the heat of the moment. It's about the fate of the innocent animal that is about to be shot. The deer is a beast that deserves to be cleanly killed as efficiently as possible. The deer isn't put there to be the subject of what amounts to an experiment on the part of an over-reaching grandfather and a timid little kid. Both the deer and the novice hunter deserve more than that.

I can name you several young hunters who were initiated into the sport by proud papas with blinders on before the kids were ready. Botched shots, PO'ed 'mentors', shame filled recriminations, etc. caused a couple of them to be put off the whole game- much to the chagrin of 'proud papa'.

Load something with a little more 'oomph' for a clean kill, or else wait another year or two when the kid is bigger and can handle the recoil of a sufficient load/rifle combination. The deer will still be there, as will (hopefully) the kid, and you.

[shredder]

I have been killing deer with .30 cast bullets for 45 years now, and I've learned a few things along the way. Those that I shot with powder puff loads like the one described by the OP died hard, even with proper bullet placement and dead soft bullets. By which I mean they ran quite a ways and required follow up shots to finish off. The only way I would use a light load like that anymore would be if I could guarantee the placement of the bullet where it'll damage the spinal chord either in the neck or up high above the shoulder, or jelly brain it with a head shot. If the kid has ice water in his veins and can coolly stick that slow moving bullet right there, then go ahead. I haven't met many kids on their first hunting trip with that kind of stability.

It isn't about proud papa (or grandpa) puffing up his chest and bragging about a kids prowess or overestimating a kids coolness in the heat of the moment. It's about the fate of the innocent animal that is about to be shot. The deer is a beast that deserves to be cleanly killed as efficiently as possible. The deer isn't put there to be the subject of what amounts to an experiment on the part of an over-reaching grandfather and a timid little kid. Both the deer and the novice hunter deserve more than that.

I can name you several young hunters who were initiated into the sport by proud papas with blinders on before the kids were ready. Botched shots, PO'ed 'mentors', shame filled recriminations, etc. caused a couple of them to be put off the whole game- much to the chagrin of 'proud papa'.

Load something with a little more 'oomph' for a clean kill, or else wait another year or two when the kid is bigger and can handle the recoil of a sufficient load/rifle combination. The deer will still be there, as will (hopefully) the kid, and you.

You put into words precisely what I was thinking as I read this thread through. Well done.

[Poohgyrr]

I too feel that a .30-30 with a cast bullet will kill a deer in the baitpile at 30 yards. But I will soften my mix as some of you guys have suggested. Thanks

30 yards is a fine hunting distance for thin skinned deer type game. I'd want to check the load before the hunt, but that goes for any of my handloads.

With good penetration from the right angle, and good ammo, standard power 30WCF rounds have worked past 150 yards, and I forget how slow they are going at that distance.

At 30 yards, I'd think you will need to have some sharp knives, and potatoes, onions, seasonings, etc... ready. Cast well and enjoy that fresh air when you're out hunting.

[RPRNY]

I have been killing deer with .30 cast bullets for 45 years now, and I've learned a few things along the way. Those that I shot with powder puff loads like the one described by the OP died hard, even with proper bullet placement and dead soft bullets. By which I mean they ran quite a ways and required follow up shots to finish off. The only way I would use a light load like that anymore would be if I could guarantee the placement of the bullet where it'll damage the spinal chord either in the neck or up high above the shoulder, or jelly brain it with a head shot. If the kid has ice water in his veins and can coolly stick that slow moving bullet right there, then go ahead. I haven't met many kids on their first hunting trip with that kind of stability.

It isn't about proud papa (or grandpa) puffing up his chest and bragging about a kids prowess or overestimating a kids coolness in the heat of the moment. It's about the fate of the innocent animal that is about to be shot. The deer is a beast that deserves to be cleanly killed as efficiently as possible. The deer isn't put there to be the subject of what amounts to an experiment on the part of an over-reaching grandfather and a timid little kid. Both the deer and the novice hunter deserve more than that.

I can name you several young hunters who were initiated into the sport by proud papas with blinders on before the kids were ready. Botched shots, PO'ed 'mentors', shame filled recriminations, etc. caused a couple of them to be put off the whole game- much to the chagrin of 'proud papa'.

Load something with a little more 'oomph' for a clean kill, or else wait another year or two when the kid is bigger and can handle the recoil of a sufficient load/rifle combination. The deer will still be there, as will (hopefully) the kid, and you.

Well then. Imagine the chagrin of all those stupid bowhunters who think they can kill Deerosaurus at 25 yds with a little pointed stick. What fools!

[Poohgyrr]

I can't help but remember similar disagreements about the 357Magnum & deer hunting.

Some folks absolutely believe the 357Magnum isn't enough, and I have to respect their experience. Then again, it absolutely has (and does) work for others; I have to respect their experience too.

Placement and penetration.

In the end, I can't argue with success. It is still a hefty 30 cal boolit, and a thin skinned deer.

[TXGunNut]

I'd take a hard look at the posts regarding the 300 Whisper/AAC blackout, then consider that it's a heavy boolit poking along rather sedately to remain subsonic. More than a few deer and hogs have fallen to that round. I don't have any experience with either but I'll bet on a big, slow, well-aimed chunk of lead fired by a confident young hunter over a faster boolit fired by a recoil-sensitive youngster.

[pmeisel]

The load described has about the energy of a 357 magnum out of a 6" barrel. That's plenty on deer out to 50 or 75 yards. We are hunting deer here, not moose or elephants.

Go hunting, buggybuilder. Target practice will help your son more than a bigger load.

[TCLouis]

Let me get this straight . . .

158 grain boolit out of a 357 at 1200-1500 fps is adequate for deer out to 50, 75, 100 yards depending on the source.

150 grain boolit out of a 30 caliber traveling 1200-1500 will not kill a deer.

OK, I have the concept.

No matter what you do, he needs to send a couple of hundred downrange off of bench and then whatever rest he may have while hunting between now and season.

Bet he will be able to handle more power as that exercise advances.

[singleshot]

My 2 cents...I much prefer a decent meplat on boolits rather than rely on expansion.

[mroliver77]

Practice, practice, practice! NOT from a bench neither!
J

[shredder]

Well then. Imagine the chagrin of all those stupid bowhunters who think they can kill Deerosaurus at 25 yds with a little pointed stick. What fools!

What in the world does any of this have to do with bowhunting?

[gnoahhh]

True, a .357 is sufficient medicine, at close range in the hands of a skilled/cool shot. Would you send an inexperienced kid into the woods armed with a .357 revolver on his first hunt though? A .357 Mag is a walloping good pistol cartridge, but compared to a decent rifle it is trifling, not to mention illegal for deer in many states due to insufficient muzzle energy. Neither the .357 or the plinking .30/30 load being discussed here comes close to the minimum requirement for deer hunting in my state, one of the few DNR rules that I agree with.

Theory and the experiences of a few seasoned deer hunters is still not germane to the point I tried to make earlier concerning a wispy kid on his first deer hunt.

[RPRNY]

What in the world does any of this have to do with bowhunting?

A 350 gr arrow at 290 fps is perfectly sufficient to kill any deer. This simple fact seems astonishing in view of several comments suggesting that 160 grs of bullet arriving at supersonic speeds cannot penetrate the Kevlar hide of a deer....

Again, the OP is talking about a 30 yard shot from a blind. If the young fellow can hit vitals, the deer is dead. If he can't, the 375 H&H deemed the minimum for white tails by many in this thread isn't going to work either. 160 grains of soft lead arriving at 1200 - 1400 fps will kill deer, just as thousands of deer fall every year to little pointy sticks arriving at rock throwing speeds from nearly the same distance.

[gnoahhh]

Point taken, but a razor sharp broadhead cuts and slices a lot more than a 160 gr. .30 bullet going a bit faster than the speed of sound will. How many bow hunters can honestly claim a clean dead-right-there kill more often than 'sometimes' anyway? Dead fairly quickly and only needing to track it a short distance is a heckuva lot different than "lights out" at the crack of the shot.

Whether a certain load (or arrow) will kill a deer is beside the point- even a .22 LR will put the kibosh to a deer. My point remains that using a marginal gun/load combo is a borderline stunt shot best left to the seasoned experts, not a buck-fevered kid drawing down on his first deer. The animal deserves better than that.

[RPRNY]

No. The point is that the load described will kill a deer just as well as any other if the kid hits vitals, which he is more likely to do with a load that doesn't cause flinch.

[Maximumbob54]

A recoil pad could make a hotter load feel pretty tame. I like to run Ranch Dog loads through my 336 and without a pad they let you know you are alive. With a Past pad that same load feels a lot like a .223 from an AR. Just another thought.

[warboar_21]

A recoil pad could make a hotter load feel pretty tame. I like to run Ranch Dog loads through my 336 and without a pad they let you know you are alive. With a Past pad that same load feels a lot like a .223 from an AR. Just another thought.

This is what I was thinking as well. Let him practice with the PAST recoil pad during the summer and then come hunting season he will not notice the shot whether it's from a 30-30 or a 300 Win Mag. Another thing he could do is slowly increase powder charge to the point that the boy would hardly notice the increase. This is something that my brother inlaw did with my nephew for his first Black Bear hunt at age 10. He used light bullets at reduced velocities and slowly worked up to the point where he could handle full house 30-06 loads. He killed his bear and fears no rifle now. Prior to the work up he was afraid of recoil from the rifle.

I looked up on the MI DNR website and didn't see anything about minimum caliber or ME requirements.

[FromTheWoods]

My youngest chose to use his Great-great grandfather's '73 Winchester .38-40 to take his first and second deer. Both tipped over within a few yards of where they had been shot. Those lead bullets were 180 grains traveling around 950 fps. Oregon mule deer--I guess we don't have very tough deer out here--sad.
I've taken quite a few Blacktails with it too.

I agree with those who advise practice for safe, comfortable, and accurate shooting. Then, shoot the deer--even up to 100 yards away.
Wishing you all a successful, memorable harvest and packaging!

[Ramjet-SS]

Buggy that load will take deer no issue. When my youngsters started hunting I took another approach but very similar in that low recoil allowed them to focus no the target not the impending recoil. Worse mistake anyone can make is trying to get a youngster to shoot more gun than they can handle.

I like the combination you are suggesting Just cast up some softer lead bullets with a wide nose profile and show the young man how to shoot and you will share a proud moment.

I started my son with a .223 loaded with a Barnes X bullets dropped four deer with that gun and load DRT. My daughter shot a 220 swift with the same barnes triple shock but loaded to 3900 FPS man that gun would drop deer in their tracks.

But like I said I have shot several deer with my 45-70 300 grain lead bullet at 1000 FPS yea heavier wider but those were hard cast and ran deer stem to stern.

Good luck and have teaching the boy and maybe shoot load into wet news print to see the penetration and bullet performance. I do this with all my loads then compare with known effective loads.

[UncleSarge58]

Big Slow Lead when Well Aimed at Close Range ALWAYS Kills Deer Dead;-)
Maybe it's just me, But, I don't Like Hard Kicking Guns or Loads.
For Me a 170gr Cast LRNFP w/ 20gr H-4198 (1700fps) or 30gr LVR (2000fps) work just fine on Deer out to 50yds. In my Marlin 336, 30-30, Both are Very Accurate & have Very Low Kick.
I also believe Your Load Will be Just Fine @ 30yds.
Just Have him Practice & Good Hunting.
UncleSarge58

[Bzcraig]

Some schools of thought:
1) Universally, shot placement is king! Many deer have fallen to the 22lr.
2) Unless you are using the latest and greatest, you suck.
3) Tried and true = old and dumb
4) My thoughts are the only ones that count
Except for #1 all else is fallacy
A 160gr slug traveling at 1200-1300 fps striking a monster whitetail in heart/lungs at a range of 30 yards will be terminal.
Making sure the youngin can boringly strike a 6" target at 50 yards is sound wisdom along with working up loads until HE says enough. Doing that together will probably be more fun.
It wasn't that many years ago there was no such thing as a Hunting Safety Instructor, that was a tradition passed from father to son while working up loads and hunting game.
Scharfschuetzer, my last sentence is not intended as a criticism of what you are doing. You serve to fill the void left by all the fathers uninvolved with their sons. But, it is to say no one knows that child better than the parent and/or grandparent regarding their abilities, maturity and competency.