My new Savage axis. Rough start.

[DeanWinchester]

Bought a new savage axis in 308 the other day with the intent of making me a new cast only rifle.
Nice enough rifle, nothing to brag about though. Black stock and a black rifle with a black Leupold 3x9-40 scope. The scope cost more than the rifle. I bought it at Wally World for $290 out the door.

Took about forty patches to get all the factory poop out but the bore looks great. No chatter marks. I didn't slug the bore, a .311 boolit will chamber just fine.

I'm using a Lee 155 boolit meant for 7.62x39. Hornady gas check and Bens Red lube. Lubed and checked they weigh in at 163g. I weighed them +/- .5g.

BHA match brass, full length sized and a .309 Mdie for plenty of tension, but not too much. No crimp, I just used the lee factory crimp die to close the bell. I'll be neck sizing only from here on out.

Winchester large rifle primer and I started out with AA 2015. I contacted Accurate for some data and I started out with 20 rounds @ 29.0g and twenty more @ 30.0g.

Took four rounds to get the scope on paper. Then I fired the rest in four round groups. The best I got was at 30.0g and it shot about 4.5" at 25 yards. That sucks!
Thankfully there was zero leading, just a faint silver wash toward the muzzle that came out with a couple dry patches. I didn't clean any further.

I know you can't expect perfect result out of the gate, just felt like talking about it.
I wonder if I should go further with 2015 or try another powder?
I'm going to load another twenty with 10.0g of Unique but I don't have a lot of suitable rifle powders.
I've been using a lot of surplus powders for the last few years but the supply is drying up around here so I'm looking for commercial replacements. I'm saving what I have left for proven loads in other guns.
Wonder if H4350 would work? I have a pound of that. I'm going to try some RX7 too.
I'm wide open on where I go from here, so....suggestions?
My real goal here is accuracy from 25 yards out to a max of 100. I'd like to find accuracy around 2,000 fps or so. Plenty to hunt with but no need to be a barn burner here.

As always, thanks for the help guys!

[tomme boy]

I like 4895 of all flavors. 2400 is about the standard powder for rifles and cast.

[DeanWinchester]

Can't find 2400 around here.
I've got to get me some IMR4895 though. Need it for my cast Swede loads.

[supe47]

Try slowing it down a bit. I shoot the lee 170 gr with 25.0 gr. 4895 and 27.0 gr Varget. Get about the same results (1" @ 100 yds) with both. My best accuracy loads seem to be between 1850-1900 fps. Neck sizing only should help also.

[wallenba]

I recently stumbled onto a load that shows some promise. Using the same boolit ( I assume it's the C312-155-2R ) I got this from my 308 Ruger Hawkeye with iron sights at 50 yards. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?200782-Tested-some-converted-brass
They were sized .309, lubed with LLA, 27.5 grains of IMR-3031. My twist is 1:10.

[burntpowder]

I had good results with R7 with that bullet in 762x39. Give it a try.

[DeanWinchester]

Okay, I have a large coffee can full of 170G RN cast boolits I cast from a borrowed mold. I think it was a Mihec. I know it was a group buy, I'll check to see exactly what it was later.
I was seating in an empty case to check fit for possibly trying some of these in the Savage. I have run these in a Ruger M77MkII with spectacular results and I know that the boolit will lightly engrave right where the case mouth is. I chambered a round in this Savage and it did just that......BUT only on half the boo lit! Now, I did it again and set the case with seated boolit in a Vblock and runout was about .001-.0015 Not perfect but not horrible. WHen I chambered it, the bolt closed with a very slight bit of resistance on the last 1/4 inch of the handle closing. Extraction was easy and I didn't have to jerk it or anything. BUT, for half the circumference of the boolit [near the case mouth] I can see where it engraved. For the half, nothing. Is this something I should be concerned about?

[thekidd76]

Did you say you bought it with a Leupold already on it from Walmart? Around here they all have Bushnell scopes for that price.

[wallenba]

Hmmm... .001 - .0015 is well under the .003 acceptable TIR most people use. I would definately think about doing a chamber cast. From the description, it sounds like the leade is uneven.

[DeanWinchester]

Did you say you bought it with a Leupold already on it from Walmart? Around here they all have Bushnell scopes for that price.

No, it had no scope. I had the Leupold. I took it off an AR-15 I just sold.

[DeanWinchester]

Hmmm... .001 - .0015 is well under the .003 acceptable TIR must people use. I would definately think about doing a chamber cast. From the description, it sounds like the leade is uneven.

I THINK I may have jumped the gun on this one. I tried using a totally different boolit with a larger bore rider type nose and the the engraving was very even. I'm thinking the boolit I used may have been the culprit on that. I could be wrong. If things don't improve I'm going to sit down and decide weather to involve Savage and try and send it back, or just contact Manson and get a throating reamer and true things up. Either way, I'm going to send a LOT more lead down range before I try anything like that.

[DeanWinchester]

I would have said 18-20gr 2400 IF you had access to it. 21gr AA5744, or somewhere close with 4759. 25-27gr H322......19gr 2400 is my standard load in the RGS (10" twist) with the Lee C312-155-2R sized .311"(water dropped 18-20bhn). It shoots 2moa on a bad day, and closer to moa on good days, 5 shot groups!

Back off the AA2015 to 24gr and work up in full grain increments. Its right next to H322 on the burn rate chart, and I use 29gr H322 for 170-205gr in the 30-06. You'll want a lesser charge in the 308.


Well, the guys at Accurate are wonderful about helping out with weird data and what not. They certainly know more than me. When I wrote him I told him I wanted a powder charge for a 170g cast boolit running around 2K fps. He wrote me back with the data: Starting charge of 28.4 for approx. 1950 and a max charge of 31.2 for approx. 2150fps

I was wanting around 2K so I started off at 29.0 and also 30.0g
Like I said, they know WAY more than me but let me tell you!!!! Recoil wasn't nitro magnum or nuthin' but it was STOUT given the boolit weight v/s velocity. I have shot my fair share of 308 cast boolits and a max charge of Unique is somewhere close to 1900 fps or so if I remember right (i may be wrong) along with several loads using WC844T and NONE of those have a recoil impulse or muzzle blast like this. Not meaning to sound like a recoil wimp here but they were more akin to some of the jaxeted loads I used to shoot before I knew any better. I have a shoulder injury and a serious source for free lead so I ain't interested in them old loads anymore.

I was in the process of working up some RX7 loads but I think I will take your advice and back off my current load.


.....and YES, I know I need a Chronograph.


Thanks everyone for the help and suggestions. I'm all ears for any more.

[MT Chambers]

I think the prob. is not the powder, but the bullet, either the fit in the barrel or the leade, did you measure the bullets? I would also skip the crimp die, unnecessary in your bolt gun and may effect bullet size.

[DeanWinchester]

They measure .311. They fall from the mold around .3125 or so and I size them back to .311

A far as the crimp die, I'm not crimping anything. I just use it to close the bell left from the Mdie. If I don't it makes closing the bolt a little stiff.

[MT Chambers]

Dean: Didn't your orig. die set not come with the facility to crimp or "iron out the flare"? I just wonder why people are buying these things?

[DeanWinchester]

Dean: Didn't your orig. die set not come with the facility to crimp or "iron out the flare"? I just wonder why people are buying these things?


It did but I have used it in the past for crimping jacketed bullets and I'm just in a habit of seating separate from crimping. That and I've never liked the crimp in a seating die anyway.

[Larry Gibson]

Dean

The guys at Accurate may be wonderfull but I bet he just punched your request into a computer program for jacketed bullets not cast.

That is way too much powder for a fast burner like AA2015. I suggest you back off as others have. Load some more as you did (nothing wrong there that I can see) and start at 21 gr AA2015, use a 3/4 gr dacron filler and work back up to your projected 2K fps. Those 29 and 30 gr loads were way too fast for that bullets design in the twist of that Savage barrel.

Larry Gibson

[45 2.1]

I think you really need to look at some published cast data...... In no case was the starting charge for 2015 under 24 gr. for a 160 gr. to 180 gr boolit. Some starting charges were somewhat higher than 24 gr.! The guys at Accurate gave you data in line with the Lyman manuals. I also think you need to try another powder.

[DeanWinchester]

Okay, taking a closer look at my Lyman manual I see something they call XMR 2015. THey also list 5744 as xmp5744. Where are they getting these prefixes. I've never seen it on any Accurate Powder. Whatever.
Anyway, it lists a starting charge of 25.0 of 2015 for a 160g boolit. I loaded 20 tonight with 24.0g and I will work up from there.
I also went ahead and loaded 20 more with 25.0g of RX7 which is the listed starting charge for a 160g boolit.

Honestly, I've had such good results with RX7 in .30WCF, I kinda hope it shoots better. I'll shove this 2015 to the back of the shelf. RX7 has been INCREDIBLY good in .30WCF and .300 BLK (bolt action)


Maybe it would help if I gave some clues about what I'm gonna do with the rifle. If/when I get it to shoot, it's going to get permanent camper duty. I was going to put my Swede in there, but I can't bring myself to do it, so this black/synthetic boring little Savage is getting the job. It needs to be able to handle anything I may need to do (no gun can really do that but it'll be close) and I need a good load to stash with it. I was tempted to just do a jacketed bullet work up but I felt...dirty for even thinking it. I want it to inside two inches at a hundred. I KNOW this Lee bullet will do it. 17.0g of Lil'gun in my .300 BLK will do it all day long. I shot a 3 inch group at a hundred with it a few weeks ago........that was a 20 round group. So there's no reason it can't do it in a brand new .308.

Thanks everyone. I'd really be screwed and in the dark if not for this site.

[DeanWinchester]

I see you have Rx7, so you can try that. Start at 22gr and work up.

THat low huh? Maybe I should go back and load (20) rounds each from 22.0-25.0 in one grain increments? I got plenty of components. Theoretically a 24" barrel should give 1703fps with 25.0g I don't really think I would want much less than that [provided I find accuracy of course] if I were to take large game with it. THat's the reason I kinda threw that 2,000fps goal out there. Not set in stone but it would give good performance on white tail using air cooled wheel weights. I know the 170g boolit I load for a friend's Ruger using WC844T penetrates several two liter bottles of water and mushrooms perfect.


If I keep having troubles I may switch to powder coating them.

[DeanWinchester]

I have always operated under the premise that if it fits, shoot it. So, I've been shooting .311. This bore is running about .3089-.3092 depending on how I hold my mouth when mic'ing the slug. Wonder if it would help to back down to ..310?

They chamber smoothly and as I've said, there's NO lead in the barrel. Just curious.

[Willyp]

Could be your trigger is heavy.These have an 8 to 11 lb. pull !!!!!! Secondly,if you had the gun apart,when you put these back together,you must make sure the barrel is up against the recoil lug,before tightening things back together.
Just my thoughts.

[uscra112]

XMP was the old designation for what is now AA5644. My nickel's worth is to try it if you have any. It has treated me very, very well in my K-31 Swiss.

[MT Gianni]

I would make sure that it is accurate with jacketed first. I recently bought a Savage Mod 10 and appreciate the accutrigger. I will need to see what the gun is capable of before trying to get a good cast load.

[DeanWinchester]

I would make sure that it is accurate with jacketed first. I recently bought a Savage Mod 10 and appreciate the accutrigger. I will need to see what the gun is capable of before trying to get a good cast load.

That's a last resort. I don't want to ever put a piece of copper down the bore if can keep from it. I really don't wanna have to BUY a bullet when I cast a boolit for free.
I suppose I will if I have to.

[DeanWinchester]

Shot 24.0g of 2015 and 25.0g of rx7 today. Minimal change. Groups at fifty were six inches at best. Some as wide as ten.
Also shot 24.0g of 2015 with a powder coated bullet. No change. They shot about 6 inches at fifty.
Tried a load that I developed for a buddies Ruger. It will shoot under an inch at fifty. They shot about 7 inches at fifty.

I didn't want to but next go around will be with jacketed bullets. I have a little over 1K 175g SMK's I bought for .300 blackout but I no longer load for that cartridge. I will try those next. If they don't shoot I will either snatch the barrel off or just put the rifle up for sale. I don't really want to fool with the hassle of involving Savage.
I have about 6lbs of WC846 left. That should be enough to get me through the bullets on hand.

If I could just get it to shoot under 2 inches at fifty all would be well. I'd load a thousand rounds for it then and put it all away for a camp rifle. Stow it at the bug out shack or the camper.

This is frustrating. I may break my principles and even buy a box or two of factory ammo just as a litmus test.

[DeanWinchester]

I even gave the barrel ample time to cool. Twenty rounds and this barrel will scald your hands. Is paper thin. That may be a lot of it.
I'll think about maybe getting a heavier profile barrel. At least a Savage is easy to change.

[DeanWinchester]

I've been seriously considering the gun site. I think they are butt ugly but the functionality of the rifle is undeniable. They defiantly serve their intended purpose very well.

I'd like to have one and have JES rebore it to 358 Winchester. To me, that cartridge would make a much better choice, although it would be a handload only prospect.....then again, it's against my religion to buy factory ammunition so what's the difference.

[DeanWinchester]

Well, if you think the RGS is aesthetically challenged, maybe you should keep your fugly Savage that doesn't group worth a hoot.

Ha! It's a far cry purtier than this Savage! I think its the Long magazine and muzzle brake on a bolt action that makes the Ruger 'aesthetically challenged' for me. The rifle itself is great.
Too funny.

[DeanWinchester]

Back to the Savage,
If there's anyone in the TN area that would like to come on down here and slap the piss outta me, I think I need it because I am pretty sure I found the issue.

For all the preaching people here do on proper procedure, you'd think I would have done it. Slug the bore I mean. Assumption is the mother of all foul ups right? Well I assumed that sizing .311 would work for this rifle because it chambered and the results I have had with all the other rifles I have used these loads in has been spectacular. Well, I run a slug through the bore and guess what I find? .307-.3078 depending on where I mic the slug. Holy Mary mother of God I've been running almost four thousandths interference! No friggin wonder! I called a buddy and I should have a .309 sizer here by the end of the week.

I'm amazed it did as well as it did although the fact that it didn't lead the bore is a no brainer. You can't get gas cutting with that kind of seal!!!

SO, even those of us who THINK they have learned a little in their time here still don't know squat huh? If this solves the problem I think I'll have to post a formal apology for wasting all your collective time.

I almost didn't post this out of shame, but to claim positive results without full disclosure would be a lie.


****Signs off the computer in shame.........*****

[DeanWinchester]

I am seating to where the boolit just touches.

As I posted earlier, one particular boolit doesn't engrave all the way around the circumference. I tried a different boolit and it did. I went back to that this morning using a jewelers loupe adn I see that it IS in fact engraving a little more on one side than the other. I can get a throating reamer from Manson for $40 so I may end up buying one to gently kiss the throat and get a minimal clean up on that. A few thousandths should clean that right up. I wanna wait till last to do that though.

I've loaded several more loads and slowed things WAY down too. Even started some Unique. 10.0g and working up in 1.0g increments.

[john hayslip]

Larry, Ross Seyfreid writing in Handloader years ago warned about light bits of Dacron as fillers causing chamber rings. I ringed a chamber in a 32-20 with a light load under a cork wad and breach seating when I was using cast bullets in a Remington-Hepburn. That one had already been relined so it's been relined a second time. Perhaps better than a filler is just pointing the case up when you load it to try to keep the powder in approximately the same position every time. I tink Roll recommended something like 8-10 grains of dacron - no less. I can probably dig up the article if you are interested.