Filling the gap in 45LC & 38SPL

[bangerjim]

Since both carts are old technology (black powder days) there is a large space left when loading modern faster burning powders with 3.5g in the 38 and 74g in the 45.

Question is - does the powder laying in the bottom of the big cart burn unevenly or does that make any difference? ​I'm talking Unique, 231, Clays, Am Select, etc.

There is a good thread here on using Dacron fluff in rifle carts, but how about pistols?

I thought of using a paper punch "wad" from my harbor Freight punch & die set that just fits inside the case. Fill the load, push the paper punch (60-100 wt card stock) down against the powder and it is held tight against the primer, ready to totally burn all at once.

What are any thoughts on this? Or is it really even needed?

Seems to make sense to have the powder tight against the primer rather than setting in the bottom of the brass.

Thanks for your ideas!

bangerjim :Fire:

[mroliver77]

Never use a card was in this manner! It can pe pushed up like a piston and the air being compressed will squish to the sides and cause bulging, ringing and other bad stuff! Dacron works but is unnecessary in my testing anyhow.
Lots of words written on the subject!

[DougGuy]

Powder manufacturers list minimum and maximum load data. They are well aware of the case capacity and also the load density. That's why there is a minimum charge weight for a given powder/boolit. NONE of the data that I have ever seen for .45 Colt advocate the use of a wad or filler. Some powders are position sensitive, meaning that they become inconsistent when not up against the flash hole, erratic ignition can occur, as well as uncontrollable peaks in pressure. For these reasons, some powders are not listed for the .45 Colt. Most of those are fast burning powders that work well in small pistol cartridges but are EXTREMELY DANGEROUS when used outside of their listed applications.

All of the recommended powders and charge weights listed for the .45 Colt will be perfectly safe with boolits they are listed with.

You are trying to invent a "fix" for something that is far from broken. Your enthusiasm to correct something that is not wrong will lead you into some very unsafe territory should you stray outside known, trusted, proven, and documented load data for the .45 Colt.

[Idz]

If the goal is getting the powder to burn the same way each time then why would it make a difference? If it is always laying in the bottom part of the case won't it burn the same way each time? I knew a revolver shooter who would point his gun skyward and then lower it down to the target because he claimed that would 'pack' the powder identically for each shot. Was it the powder or his muscle memory ritual that made him accurate? Sounds like you need to do some experiments.

[btroj]

If there was a problem I think it would have been addressed in the 100 years of experience with those cartridges and smokeless powder.

[fecmech]

I've never seen any problems in the .38 spl and small charges of fast powders. Generally extremely uniform ballistics.
This question comes up quite often along with it's cousin "you need fast powders for short handgun barrels".

[Piedmont]

Since both carts are old technology (black powder days) there is a large space left when loading modern faster burning powders with 3.5g in the 38 and 74g in the 45.

Question is - does the powder laying in the bottom of the big cart burn unevenly or does that make any difference? ​I'm talking Unique, 231, Clays, Am Select, etc.

There is a good thread here on using Dacron fluff in rifle carts, but how about pistols?

I thought of using a paper punch "wad" from my harbor Freight punch & die set that just fits inside the case. Fill the load, push the paper punch (60-100 wt card stock) down against the powder and it is held tight against the primer, ready to totally burn all at once.

What are any thoughts on this? Or is it really even needed?

Seems to make sense to have the powder tight against the primer rather than setting in the bottom of the brass.

Thanks for your ideas!

bangerjim :Fire:

The long cartridges with small powder charges are not the most consistent. You could look into shorter rounds, like .45 ACP in a revolver, and many report that their ACP cylinder is more accurate than their .45 Colt cylinder in a Blackhawk. But a less expensive approach is to start shooting wadcutters in those long cases. That will use up a lot of the case capacity.

[Outpost75]

The original Hercules Bullseye powder was used for factory loading of .38 Special and .45 Colt ammunition for about 100 years.

The current Alliant product also works extremely well. In the .45 Colt a charge of 6.5 grains of Bullseye approximates the velocity of factory 250-grain lead bullet ammunition using suitable soft lead bullets not harder than wheelweights or 12 BHN.


I use this in my Colt New Service M1909 with excellent results and have for many years.,73724

[Petrol & Powder]

I've never been a fan of "fillers" in cartridge casings. I agree that you may be trying to fix something that is not broken. That being said, selecting a powder that produces the appropriate pressures/velocity AND fills the available space in the casing seems to lead to better accuracy compared to using less bulky powder that achieves the same velocity . It's not always true but it seems to be one of the variables. Back when I shot over a chronograph occasionally I found that magnum primers would reduce the amount of velocity deviation when using small charges of fast powders but often there was no improvement in actual accuracy. So long story short, its pretty much a non-issue in my experience.

[gofastman]

Trail Boss - problem solved!

[Larry Gibson]

bangerjim

I do not recommend the use of a filler in your revolver cartridges. I definately recommend against the use of the wad you mention.

Both the .38 SPL and the 45 Colt will work very well with an appropriate fast burning powder within it's efficient burning range. With the exception of 231 you are probably at the lower edge of efficient burning with the other powders, especially if light for caliber bullets are used. As mentioned Bullseye has worked for many years as a "standard" in both cartridges. Your 231 will work as well. If you want top end performance then the other powders will work fine in both cartridges. You fail to mention the guns they are to be used in or the bullet weights so I won't recommend any loads.

Larry Gibson

[olafhardt]

I think revolver cases are so small, including the 45 Colt, that the primer fills the case with fire. Therefore their is noneed for fillers.

[jlchucker]

I think revolver cases are so small, including the 45 Colt, that the primer fills the case with fire. Therefore their is noneed for fillers.

I guess without a lot of expensive and fancy equipment there's no way to prove it, but that having been said, the ammo and gun factories do have such equipment, and have no doubt come to the same conclusion as you have, Olafhardt. Myself, I've never used fillers in anything, and have usually managed to get acceptable results with all of the calibers that I load for--without fillers, keeping within parameters of published load data.

[Larry Gibson]

I guess without a lot of expensive and fancy equipment there's no way to prove it, but that having been said, the ammo and gun factories do have such equipment, and have no doubt come to the same conclusion as you have, Olafhardt. Myself, I've never used fillers in anything, and have usually managed to get acceptable results with all of the calibers that I load for--without fillers, keeping within parameters of published load data.

I have the equipment and have proven "it". Many have proven "it" which something as simple and readily available as an inexpensive chronograph and a target. Let me ask; if you've "never used one" then how do you really know "it" doesn't work? Not being facetious, just asking.

Fillers are not needed in handgun cartridges such as the 38 SPL and the 45 Colt. However, in most rifle cartridges with many of the slower "fast" burning powders and medium powders where load density is less than 80% a proper filler provides many benifits to internal ballistics and accuracy. If you are satisfied with lighter loads using faster burning powders in such cartridges then there is usually no need for a filler. If you want top end cast bullet loads most rifle cartridges are capable of then the medium and slow burning powders come into their own and a proper filler is most benificial.

Larry Gibson

[jlchucker]

I have the equipment and have proven "it". Many have proven "it" which something as simple and readily available as an inexpensive chronograph and a target. Let me ask; if you've "never used one" then how do you really know "it" doesn't work? Not being facetious, just asking.

Fillers are not needed in handgun cartridges such as the 38 SPL and the 45 Colt. However, in most rifle cartridges with many of the slower "fast" burning powders and medium powders where load density is less than 80% a proper filler provides many benifits to internal ballistics and accuracy. If you are satisfied with lighter loads using faster burning powders in such cartridges then there is usually no need for a filler. If you want top end cast bullet loads most rifle cartridges are capable of then the medium and slow burning powders come into their own and a proper filler is most benificial.

Larry Gibson

Larry, how are you using a chronograph to determine that a primer "fills a case with fire"? Just askin'.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, how are you using a chronograph to determine that a primer "fills a case with fire"? Just askin'.

A low ES and appropriate SD tells the tale. "Fills a case with fire" is not the prerequisite nor is it measured. What is measured with the chronograph is the efficiency and shot to shot consistency of the load. If the ES of a 10 shot string is 100+ fps (example and in hand guns I've measured 200+ fps ES) then that is telling us the powder is not being ignited and is not burning efficiently. An ES of 50+/- fps with an SD of 20-45% of that for a 10 shot string tells us the powder is being ignited well and is burning efficiently.

I've been using chronographs since '75 and have found that to be the case. Further testing with the Oehler M43 which also measures the pressure for each shot and provides a time/pressure trace confirms that.

Larry Gibson

[Rattlesnake Charlie]

Red Dot or Green Dot. Both designed to be low density (fluffy) to fill up shotgun hulls. Appropriate weight to get same velocity as Bullseye results in more of the cast being filled. And, they are known to be insensitive to positioning. BTW, they are usually cheaper than other powders since a lot of shotgunners use them.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

......

[35remington]

As mentioned by Larry, if velocities vary significantly from forward to backward powder positioning, and they do oftentimes with partially filled cases, the "filling cases with fire" does not prevent said variations from happening.

The "filling cases with fire" is an incorrect description of a perceived "cure" (it's actually the cause) of what is oftentimes very real problem. In other words, powder position is important in a lot of instances. And velocities drop when powder is a distance from the primer as opposed to right next to it.

Universal Clays is one of the worst offenders in terms of velocity variation when using small charges in large pistol cases when powder charges are positioned at extreme ends of the case. Please don't take my word for it......chronograph after positioning the charge and see for yourself. Better choices in fast pistol powders are available than Universal.

It is easy to check for powder position sensitivity when chronographing and one can make an informed choice as to the powders that are less susceptible to it after so doing.

[John Boy]

Jim, shooting calibers with powders that don't fill the case ... old timer's recommendation - Muzzle Up. Put the powder on the flash hole consistently for closer SD's

[Ramjet-SS]

One of the best resources for cast bullets is the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook third edition.

In the 45 LC loads as low as 4.0 grains of Red Dot do not suggest any filler in fact not one load in that section does.

Now many of the rifle or large case low charge data do.

So I think you will be fine without.

[35remington]

But check for variation in your chronograph testing for velocity to see how your chosen powder does. If things don't work out so well with powder forward and powder back, try something else to see if it does better.

[dougader]

I have never used a wad or filler of any kind when loading any pistol or rifle caliber, and I have no plans of using filler in the future... but this ringing that is caused by using a wad makes me want to ask another question along those lines...

If an over powder wad can cause ringing as explained, then do we risk a similar form of ringing, or any other damage if we use over powder and over shot wads when assembling shot loads for revolvers? If not, then why not? I'm genuinely curious...

Thanks in advance for any insight guys.

[Piedmont]

I have never used a wad or filler of any kind when loading any pistol or rifle caliber, and I have no plans of using filler in the future... but this ringing that is caused by using a wad makes me want to ask another question along those lines...

If an over powder wad can cause ringing as explained, then do we risk a similar form of ringing, or any other damage if we use over powder and over shot wads when assembling shot loads for revolvers? If not, then why not? I'm genuinely curious...

Thanks in advance for any insight guys.

No, because there is no airspace.

[olafhardt]

I think filling with fire may be very important. I picture it as causing detonation in partial loads. If you have plenty of powder as in reduced loads of slow powder the gun blows up when the primer blast simultaneously fluidizes and ignites the a large portion of the powder. This could be more or less likely depending on powder position. When you have a small amount of powder in a small case detonation may occur frequently maybe always,but the gun doesn't below up because the minute powder charges are tsmall to blow it up. Think of a fire cracker in a safe. Perhaps they are upper and lower limits. This is just a theory, but it makes more sence to ME than anyother I have herd on detonation.

[jwgera]

FYI, when using smokeless powder (red dot) 5gr 230 gr bullet, I discovered since the case is mostly empty that There is a difference in the volume of sound and the recoil of the gun by shifting the powder forward or aft of the cartridge. Also chronograph confirms that powder position makes a difference.

I tried seating the bullet deep into the case so that the bullet is seated similar to a 45ACP (ie. from base of the cartridge to the front of the bullet being the length as the 45ACP) and got velocities similar to the 45ACP.

I also found there is less blowout of the primer when seated close to the powder. Just like putting an obstruction in your barrel can cause a barrel to blow up because of the high pressure generated, A bullet seated far from the powder charge will also create higher pressures. Fortunately, the pressures do not blow up the barrel, but you are getting higher pressures.

The cartridges don't look as nice with the bullets deep into the cartridge, but I like the consistency and lower pressures.

[35remington]

No.

Pressure is ALWAYS higher with less airspace in the case when bullets are seated deeply over fast powder as opposed to regular seating.

Always.

[Grapeshot]

Trail Boss - problem solved!

I second that TRAIL BOSS. Works fantastic in my M1909 New Service and Colt Anaconda.

[fcvan]

I used filler in a BP percussion revolver which improved/reduced standard deviation. I tried using inert filler in a .45 Colt rifle using the Lee C452-300 RF, but without the gas check. The powders were Unique and 4227. As with any load, I started off light and worked up, taking case volume and filler weight into consideration. The end result was great, velocities were quite consistent, and accuracy was very acceptable. I'd post data but I'm 1400 miles from my reloading data. Suffice to say the rounds with filler were faster than without, and the check-less boolits behaved as though checked. For the record, the loads without corn meal fired just fine but the filler did improve things measurably.

[olafhardt]

Just curious, does anyone use a powder measure to charge cases with filler? Is that standard? I am worried that without a wad the filler and powder would mix up using cornmeal etc unless compressed.

[TXGunNut]

Never been an issue for me, probably fired 200K + 38 rounds with less than 3 grs of 231 or BE, hundreds of PPC shooters do it every weekend this time of year. Just to be safe tho my 45 Colt boolits compress a full load of FFFg. ;-)

[bangerjim]

One of the "bragging rights" of TiteGroup is it is (supposedly) one of the most position-insensitive powders out there. At least so they say. I use TG almost entirely on 38's and 45LC's now and really cannot see any difference in position. Same kick, same bang, same grouping as with a bit of Dacron fluff. Other powders may/will give different results....my guess.

Interesting how this old thread I started back when has reared it;s head again!


bangerjim

[Old School Big Bore]

The match ammo for my M686 (retired the M66) and M29 are put up in .357 and .44 Magnum brass. I had to compromise between case space and bullet jump distance. The bullets are MP's HBWCs, which means the long skirts take up a good bit of case space, and I seat them with about half the front band outside the case, which gives me a little piloting effect in the throats. The magnum cases leave minimal gap between case mouth and chamber ledge, and the light charges of W231/HP38/Bullseye/Red Dot seem to light well and consistently. I found and bought some Trail Boss recently and will experiment with it; in the past I experimented with Red Dot because it bulks higher than 231/BE and I was seeking better loading density - maybe Trail Boss will be the key. I am trying to find one of the rare 686 .38 Spl cylinders as well as a 57/58 cylinder to have made into a .44 Spl, to facilitate use of Spl brass in both revolvers.
Bottom line, if you want to end up with less air space, combining a HBWC and a bit fluffier powder will go a long way towards that. You could also use a shorter case, like .38 Short Colt and one of the short .45s, if you don't mind the gap between the case mouths and chamber ledges.