Legal SKS????

[Junior1942]

I cannot get a straight answer on the legality of my Yugo SKS if I put a 30 round non-detachable magazine and a folding stock on it. I removed/whacked off the grenade launcher, the bayonet lug, and the night sight.

[Bret4207]

http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=17264&highlight=sks

Still supposed to meet the 922 requirements. In theory as soon as you removed the g-launcher and baynoet lug you altered it from C+R status. Now you need to get down to the 10 original parts.


10-or-less” Questions:
Overview:

Any rifle with ten-or-less imported parts is not subject to the provisions of Title 18 USC § 922(r). While there may be dozens of parts in any particular rifle, ATF has defined a list of twenty specific parts that are “counted”. Note that the total number of “counted parts” is not important, just the number of those counted parts that are imported. So often swapping just a few imported parts for US-made ones frees a rifle from the onerous provisions of Title 18 USC § 922(r).

What are the parts that are “counted”?

178.39 defines a list of twenty parts that ATF considerers when deciding if a firearm is imported or not. The total number of listed parts in the rifle is not important, so often swapping just a few imported parts for US-made ones frees a rifle from the provisions of Title 18 USC § 922(r). The listed parts are:

1) Frames, receivers, receiver castings, forgings or stampings

2) Barrels

3) Barrel extensions

4) Mounting blocks (trunions)

5) Muzzle attachments

6) Bolts

7) Bolt carriers

8) Operating rods

9) Gas pistons

10) Trigger housings

11) Triggers

12) Hammers

13) Sears

14) Disconnectors

15) Buttstocks

16) Pistol grips

17) Forearms, handguards

18) Magazine bodies

19) Followers

20) Floorplates

If more than ten of the listed parts are imported, the entire rifle is considered imported. If ten or less of the listed parts are imported, the entire rifle is considered “US-Made”. Recall that the onerous requirements of Title 18 USC § 922(r) only apply to imported rifles.

Just how many of these parts are in an SKS Carbine?

Here are the relevant parts in an SKS Carbine:

1. Receiver

2. Barrel

3. Bolt

4. Bolt carrier

5. Gas piston

6. Trigger housing

7. Trigger

8. Hammer

9. Sear

10. Disconnector (see below)

11. Stock

12. Handguard

13. Magazine body

14. Follower

Note: This list has been confirmed by ATF. For more information, check out the discussion of 18 USC § 922(r) parts count on the Survivor's SKS Boards web site.

Which part is the “disconnector”?

Take a look at the trigger assembly of an SKS Carbine. The book The Official SKS Manual calls the “rebound disconnector” the “disconnector”. The book The SKS Carbine calls the “bolt follower disconnector” the “disconnector”. Thus these two references cannot agree on which of these parts are disconnectors. In the other hand, the book The SKS—Type 45 Carbines refers to both of these as “disconnectors”.

According to ATF. the part that aligns the trigger bar with the sear, is considered to be the disconnector for 18 USC § 922(r) purposes.

Does the SKS Carbine have “floorplate”, or is it built into the magazine body on an SKS?

The “floorplate” is built into the magazine body on a standard fixed magazine SKS Carbine. Note that creating an SKS Carbine with “10-or-less” imported parts typically involves replacing the entire magazine assembly; only two imported parts are removed.

Does the SKS Carbine have “operating rod”?

The Official SKS Manual calls the part in question a “driving rod”. The SKS Carbine calls the part in question a “gas piston extension”. However, in almost all military arms, a metal rod that “acts on” the bolt or carrier of a rifle and is not one in the same with the gas piston is called an “operating rod”. Thus other call the part in question an “operating rod”.

Note that the above parts list from ATF does not include an operating rod.

How many imported parts can be replaced in an SKS Carbine?

Using commercially available parts, you can replace the following parts:

1) Replace the stock with aftermarket US-made version.

2) Replace the handguard with aftermarket US-made version.

3) Replace the gas piston with a US-made version from Tapco (#SKS6602), SKSMan or SKSParts (#SKS-034).

4) Replace the magazine with a 100% US-made magazine, including the magazine body, follower and floorplate. (Replaces two imported parts.)

5) On Yugoslavian Type 59/66 Carbines: Remove the grenade launcher and replace it with a US-made muzzle break (foreign muzzle attachments are counted). See the FAQ’s on removing the Yugoslavian Type M59/66 grenade launcher for more info.

On a typical SKS Carbine, you will need to replace four parts. On Yugoslavian Type 59/66 Rifle, you will need to replace five parts.

These US-made parts are sometimes known as “compliance parts”, since they are used to ensure that the resulting rifle is “compliant” with Title 18 USC § 922(r).

How many imported parts can be replaced in an SKS‑D and SKS‑M?

The SKS‑D and SKS‑M utilize AK-style magazines. On these magazines, the “floorplate” is not built into the magazine body. Thus, SKS‑D and SKS‑M have an additional imported part.

In the past, there were no sources for US-made AK-style magazines or parts. However, these are now available from several manufacturers. Note that there are reports of persistent reliability issues with US-made magazine bodies. A better solution would be to add US-made AK followers and floorplates to imported magazine bodies.

I have some detachable magazines that are imported and some that are US-made. Is this a problem?

With reference to using magazines for compliance purposes, the following quote was taken from an ATF letter posted on the Soupbowl Enterprises web site: “If the modified rifle were possessed with an imported magazine…a violation of § 922(r) would occur.”

ATF has left us to try and figure out what “possessed with” means. It would be safe to assume that you should convert all of the magazines you carry around with the rifle. But, given the ambiguity, a person should seriously consider converting all their magazines to be compliant if they intend magazines as compliance parts.

I bought some “US-Made Parts”. My sales receipt says “Made in USA”, but the parts themselves aren’t marked. Is this a problem?

An unscrupulous dealer could simply take imported parts and sell them as US-Made. This is a problem. Compliance parts should be clearly marked as “US-Made”, or have the identity of the manufacturer, etc.

The law doesn't contain an exception to criminal liability for assembling a rifle with too many imported parts based on a good faith belief that you were using USA parts. It’s what is called a “strict liability” crime—there's no “mens rea” (Latin for “illegal intent”) element. The law imposes on you the obligation to perform due diligence. If you get duped, you could end up in prison. Of course, after you're in prison you could conceivably prosecute the seller for fraud. But that doesn’t help you.

For more information, check out the GonzoSKS1's post on the subject on the Survivor's SKS Boards web site.

“Caveat Emptor” is Latin for “let the buyer beware

[Junior1942]

Bret, I'm supposed to have a high IQ, but all of that makes almost zero sense.

[Bret4207]

Well, as I understand it, once you alter the rifle you have to keep replacing original parts with USA made parts or "aftermarket" parts until you have no more than 10 original parts. You already got rid of the stock, handguard, flash hider, bayonet lug and if you change the mag you also change the follower. You can also get after market disconnectors and sears. That would get you under the 10.

[357tex]

That's why I don't buy a SKS.What a mess!

[Scrounger]

That's why I don't buy a SKS.What a mess!

Just buy a legal one and leave it alone. If it ain't broke... The SKS is a champ just the way they built it.

[handyrandyrc]

Here is what you'd need to buy:

Gas piston
Operating Rod
Magazine (counts as magazine, floorplate, follower = 3 parts)

http://milsurpstuff.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SKSComp1

Make it easy and buy it from Benny429 at his milsurpstuff.com site. Since you whacked off the grenade launcher, you wouldn't need the muzzle brake.

922r compliance makes NO SENSE. It's mental gymnastics to try and understand it -- but we have to do it to satisfy the ATF and their strange rules. If not, we could end up in club fed for a long visit...

[Bret4207]

Here is what you'd need to buy:

Gas piston
Operating Rod
Magazine (counts as magazine, floorplate, follower = 3 parts)

http://milsurpstuff.com/proddetail.asp?prod=SKSComp1

Make it easy and buy it from Benny429 at his milsurpstuff.com site. Since you whacked off the grenade launcher, you wouldn't need the muzzle brake.

922r compliance makes NO SENSE. It's mental gymnastics to try and understand it -- but we have to do it to satisfy the ATF and their strange rules. If not, we could end up in club fed for a long visit...

FYI- Some sources say if the muzzle is threaded it needs to have something on there "using" the threads lest you be accused if having it set up for a silencer. Lord knows an SKS would be my first choice in "silenced" weapons.:roll: I intend to sticl something on the end of mine, eventually.

[robertbank]

Just put an order in for twoi Russian SKS's. Will cost me $300 a piece for unfired new condition rifles. Looking forward to them. As goofy as our gun laws are up here we don't have to go through any of the above. I expect to receive them in February and will post pics once received.

Now if I could find a source on non-corrisve cartridges either up here or along the 49th life would be extremely good. Going down to Washington State for a shoot in August so may try to bring some back if I can find a source.

Next will be dies for the 7x39 and then .....

Take Care

Bob

[Four Fingers of Death]

Don't make sense to us, but it obviously made sense to someone. Unfortunately that stange person made the law :( At least you can own them. Sounds like the easy answer would be to buy a used 94 Winchester.

[robertbank]

Boys and our toys. We have to keep the mags down to five rounds of course. Speaking of stupid, here is one for the books. If you have an AR 15 or variant you MUST use five rd mags or mags that are blocked to five rounds. That is of course you can't get your hands on AR15 10 rd mags made for the AR 15 type pistol. Those mags are legal 10 rounders here because they say "pistol" on them. Figure that one out.

Merry Christmas Eh
Enjoy your summer heat the sun is coming our way now!

Take Care

Bob

[txpete]

Just buy a legal one and leave it alone. If it ain't broke... The SKS is a champ just the way they built it.

a big +1

[Four Fingers of Death]

Merry Christmas Eh
Enjoy your summer heat the sun is coming our way now!

Take Care

Bob

Merry christmas to you too, I am sitting here in a sarong, just got out of the ladyfriend's pool. It's a tough job, but someone's gotta do it :D

[TAWILDCATT]

check to see if the law was canceled: ran out.mine were legal when I bought them
and they have orig parts.best bet is to leave the high cap mags out.then no one will look at them.in other words dont make waves and call atention to your self.
:coffee: :coffee: [smilie=1: :Fire:

[Larry Gibson]

I agree with TAWILDCAT, just leave off the high capacity mag and nobody will look. When's the last time anyone had anyone "check out" his SKS for legality? What cop knows the difference between U.S. made sears, magazines, gas pistons and disconnectors anyways. How many even know let alone identify that your model was a Yugo with a grenade launcher? Hell most LEOs and fed agents couldn't tell a M1 from a M1A if you showed them pictures. Contrary to popular opinion LEOs are not "firearms experts". Loading with the 10 round stripper clips is easy enough without resorting to a high capcity mag in my humble opinion anyways.

Larry Gibson

[grumpy one]

I may be over-sensitive, coming as I do from a country where firearms are highly regulated, but I suggest there is an advantage in conforming with the law in this matter, however silly the law might be. In the event that something goes wrong one day - say your rifle is stolen and misused by a criminal - you really don't want the press, and the courts, to become preoccupied by your ownership of an "illegal assault rifle". Just my viewpoint of course, others may enjoy getting involved in such situations.

[Larry Gibson]

The press and the courts go ape crap anyways as they don't know the difference between a semi automatic, full automatic, carbine or assault rifle. Who's to say joe thief didn't alter the weapon IF anyone can tell what is legal and what isn't. Bret4207's post is pretty much spot on and the knowledgeable firearms people here can't figure it out, what makes anyone think anyone else can.

I had 20 years LEO experience where I could and did enforce the game laws/regulations. In all that time dealing with numerous other LEOs including many game officers I know of only one who ever asked anybody about the cartridge they were hunting deer/elk with. There are specific caliber and ME restrictions where I was. That one LEO was me and I never wrote a single ticket even though I found several in violation (they were ticketed or arrested for far greater violations).
I've asked numerous prosecutors and judges about such violations and all basicly told me to do something better with my time. I've asked many game officers what cartridges were legal to use or what firearms and none could correctly answer. All game officers including their supervisors were of the opinion it was too hard to figure out so they didn't try.

I've asked many, many LEOs and detectives firearm legality related questions and most all do not have a clue. I just altered (last August) 50 Yugo SKSs down in California to make them legal to use at Fort Irwin and you know what? Not a single officer in the Provost Marshals office could get the same answer from numerous California LE agencies if what alterations we'd done to the SKSs (you really don't want to know, made me cry basically) made them "California legal" and that included the state agency that regulates firearms. The Army finally deemed them "acceptable" as the NTC rotation had to go on.

And besides all that local LEOs don't enforce Federal Law. I arrested dirt bags with semi's converted to full auto (posession of unregistered FA weapon was also a state violation) and called the feds (BATF) quite a few times. All they would do is come and pick up the weapon IF it was an AR, AK or something neat like a Thompson. Never once did they come and charge the dirtbag with the federal crime. They would only say to prosecute locally and destroy the weapon if we could. They never even asked for proof we had destroyed the weapons.

If I were inclined to sporterize a SKS, which I'm not as it is a very nice Russian, I would have at it. I just wouldn't put a hi-cap magazine on it. No one will know the difference.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

As Larry pointed out, just because a law is on the books doesn't mean anyone enforces it. Look at the Infidelity laws in many States, who enforces THAT!?!?! And as Larry so correctly pointed out, there are darn few officers out there that even know what to look for with many areas of the law. Thats why my van has about 500 lbs of books in it, so I can look the stuff up. Seems the more obscure or technical the law, the harder it is to find the proper section. The computer helps, but often misses things. Darned if I'm going to make on arrest for the WRONG thing. That one bugs me.

As to the question at hand, we do have a Gun Unit locally, thanks to our Native American who have traditionally been smugglers of illegal weapons. I rode nights with the head of the unit for years and got my info from him. Now as to anyone actually checking any of that stuff... better safe than sorry, but it will probably never happen. Since I can get fired AND arrested for things like that, I tend to err of the side of caution.

[Larry Gibson]

"Since I can get fired AND arrested for things like that"

Bret4207

I don't have that problem anymore. I often wondered just how many people understand that LEOs give up a lot of freedom to be an LEO. Doing some stupid things (not necessarily illegal or wrong) many times gets a LEO hung out to dry by the press and the "good" people running the jurisdiction he works for. If you are hung out enough you get fired, right or wrong. Long time ago before you could cammo a dog turd and sell it for high dollar on Ebay I had an old beater Jeep I used mostly for varmint hunting (calling coyotes in the high desert). It needed a paint job so I got a few rattle cans of appropriate colors of Rustoleum and gave the jeep a pretty nice cammo job. Didn't take long for an element in town to brand me as a derraigned Vietnam vet who was now also a dommestic terrorist. Since I was also in the National Guard it was rumored and printed in the local paper that the cammo job was too professional so I must have illegally used the NG shop to paint my Jeep. The question was; did they want a baby killer thief who was a domestic terrorist as a LEO in "their" community? I took the gaff for a while trying to defend myself (as a LEO you are guilty until you prove, if you can and if they will listen, yourself innocent) then just repainted the jeep plain Rustoleum brown. Taught me that I had erroniously thought I lived in "the land of the free". That if I owned a Jeep I could just paint it any color I wanted. Doesn't work out that way when you are an LEO.

Larry Gibson

[AR10]

Ignorance of the American public!
The most expensive commodity we have.

[shotstring]

Don't count on the local constabulary to not enforce any laws on the books relating to firearms, especially if you live in or are traveling through a large metropolitan city. I think police officers in particular in those areas are both more fearful and less knowledgeable on weaponry than you are likely to find with some sheriff dept out in the sticks. Most of them living in rural areas actually hunt and are familiar and comfortable around firearms. I once had a friend busted in Los Angeles who wasn't released until 8 hours later FOR HAVING SNAP CAPS in a shotgun that was cased and in his locked trunk. It was a loaded weapon to them.

With a democrate likely becoming the next president, most likely we will all be considered felons just for owning the items that we legally own presently once the national laws begin changing once again. :roll: So don't put too much creedence in buying or creating a firearm that will pass future legal scrutiny, because most items resembling a military weapon or having a reasonabe size magazine will most likely be doomed. Individual large city ordinances are crazier yet, but I don't even want to go there.

[45nut]

Someone else's idea of a "reasonable size magazine" is highly unlikely to match my view of the same, especially if they are not likely to visit a site such as this.