Fire-forming 38-55 brass from 30:30 or 32 spcl

[cwheel]

I had some range pick up brass in 30:30 and 32 spcl I thought I'd try to fire form into 38-55. It worked well, but the OAL of the brass ended up being 2.000 long. The trim to L for the 38-55 is 2.085 L in the reloading books. Logic is telling me to use the same load as the longer brass to keep the volume of the case the same, but this will change the amount of neck tension some. Wondering if the loading data changes with this fire-formed brass ?? .085 short is a bunch. I fire formed with Unique powder, and a 15 gr charge of Cream of Wheat adding a wax plug. After sizing I still need to run the .377 reamer into the case mouth and then expand to .379 to seat a .381 boolit to get the loaded round to chamber in the rifle. Mine slugs at .380
Chris

[Loudenboomer]

I fire formed a lot of 30-30 brass into 38-55 with about the same method. My Marlin 93 also slugs .380 and the short brass gives me a little more room for the .381 boolit. I'd anneal your brass first. (I've had several separate at the shoulder). Trim after fire form just enough that all cases are true. You'll be good to go.

[cwheel]

Guess I didn't mention it, annealed after reaming. Figured the expanding plug and flare would tend to stay centered better after annealing.
Chris

[Green Lizzard]

the ones i done worked out fine, i couldnt crimp but i found out i didnt need to with the right neck tension

[Al_sway]

When I fireformed a batch, I would trim them all a common length and go from there. That allows for a consistent crimp. And frankly, .085" is not a lot short. There is probably just about as much variance in different lots of brass from different manufacturers.

[Lead Fred]

Ive made 25-30, 32spc,35, & 38-55 out of 30-30 cases.

Never had one split yet.

[oneokie]

Just seat the boolits long to maintain the correct COAL.

[cwheel]

73693

Loaded up 3 trial cases with no primer or powder. While these shorter cases might work out well for the falling block shooters, it isn't going to work out well for this old Winchester 94. This rifle has a tangent sight and the 100 yard elevation zero is set with the powder charge. Once you have zero at 100, the rest of the scale on the sliding tangent sight is calibrated to match the graduations on the slide of the sight. Problem #1: shorter cases with the boolit not fully seated have a different neck tension and will require a different load to maintain the zero. Problem #2: because this in to be used in a Win 94 with a tube mag, rounds need to be crimped. To get a crimp in these shorter cases, seating die needs to be ground shorter at the bottom for the case to reach the crimp shoulder. My grandson will end up with this rifle and the ammo. I want to teach him how to cast and load while I'm still here, and having a uniform loading data for this rifle, boolit, powder, will make it easier for both of us. Thinking that this fire formed brass would work out best in a falling block of some kind and would most likely work great, but I don't think it would be the best choice in this 94. With that in mind, going to get on Starlines waiting list for a box of 250 to add to the 200 NOS Winchester I have and call it done. Glad I didn't do to many. A great idea, just won't work out well for this project.
Chris

[Artful]

Do you have a lathe? - you can stretch the cases if you do.

http://www.texas-mac.com/Stretching_Short_Brass_To_Fit_Your_BPCR_Chamber.ht ml


Stretching Brass with a Lathe
If you’re fortunate to have a lathe or a friend that has one, brass can be
lengthened using a “nib & spin” technique. The process involves the use of a die
to hold the case and a “nibbing rod”. The nibbing rod is similar to a boring rod
but has a very smooth hardened bump on one side close to the end, or has a
hardened ball bearing seated on one side to form the bump.

A die, similar to a full-length resizing die, is constructed to rigidly house the case and
keep it from turning inside the die. The die inside diameter (ID) must closely match the
outside diameter (OD) of the case. The die and case are aligned and clamped in
the chuck jaws. Once everything is setup, the nibbing rod is inserted deeply into
the case at a point where the case wall is thicker.

As the lathe is running the nibbing rod is adjusted so that the bump or ball bearing
presses against the wall of the case and slowly “irons out” or thins the wall as the case spins
and the rod advances towards the case mouth, hence the term “nib & spin”. As the wall is
thinned the excess brass is forced forward lengthening the case.


The other choice is to change the boolit style to match the case length so that after crimping the cartridge OAL is correct to work thru the action.
http://accuratemolds.com/catalog.php?page=5

[Green Lizzard]

c you need to go ahead and try it they work fine in my 94

[Chill Wills]

73693 With that in mind, going to get on Starlines waiting list for a box of 250 to add to the 200 NOS Winchester I have and call it done. Glad I didn't do to many. A great idea, just won't work out well for this project. Chris

Chris, If you are going to get new cases from Starline, you should get the correct ones. That old carbine was chambered for and uses the 2.130 case (2.125")! The brass made today by Winchester is 0.045" short from the get go. Based on your stated reason for getting new -correct length- brass you might want to order the long brass they offer ....for this very reason.
Enjoy shooting and loading with your grand son. My hat is off to you for showing a young guy the shooting sports. -Michael Rix

[cwheel]

Artful, yes I do have a lathe and a mill. Process you are describing is called metal spinning in the trade, and yes spinning a case can be done, slow, but can be done. Nibbing tool is common in metal spinning, internal and external. What I'm after here is working up a load that will zero the elevation with the same load or case that I have, with the same boolit and powder in all cases, and load all of the cases into ammo. After that, teach my grandson the process, casting, and loading. If you look at the pic I posted above, you will see this 94 has the less common tangent sight, in the pic, it is in the up position. In the down position, flat against the barrel, you see another sight, almost like a buckhorn sight, that is the sight for up to 100 yards. There is no provision on this type of sight to zero for elevation other than file the front sight. Once you have your powder charge adjusted to zero the 100 yard sight, that calibrates the yardage on the flip up sight as well. With the slider all the way down with the rear slider flipped up as is the pic, the zero is 150 yards. I have not tested this sight past 300 yards measured with a laser range finder, not much of a reason to. But I'm finding that tracking of that sight is very good out to that distance even still working up the loads. I have 24 on the bench now to test where I'm fussing with the last couple of grains of 3031 in the 28.5 range. Green Lizzard, I have no doubt they will work, but they won't be consistent enough to load the same with a batch of 200 Winchester, 250 Starline, to have the same striking point @100 yards with the same powder charge. It's likely that the Winchester and Starline brass volume differences will make some difference. But the neck tension issue with the fire formed brass mixed with the others seams to be more trouble than it's worth. Was worth trying just for fun though. I have no doubt that if fire formed brass was all that you could get, all you had, it would be fine. Mixing the two I don't think it's going to turn out well, that's all.
Chris

[Jon K]

You can use Lee 375 Win FCD to crimp.
100 yd poi shouldn't be affected by shorter brass, if crimped.
Right now, I don't think anyone has brass in stock. The reformed brass worked good for me, about 2006, I couldn't find 38-55 brass, and used reformed brass for 6-8 months, til production resumed.

Have fun shooting,
Jon

[williamwaco]

When I got my .38-55 I tried this.
I was not pleased with the results.
The cases were WAY too short.

They would not enter the seating die far enough to crimp so I bought the Lee FCD. It would not crimp them either.
I had to run them back into the sizing die to remover the flare.

As soon as I could get some real cases from Star-Line I jumped on them


.

[Jon K]

375 Win is shorter than 38-55.

[williamwaco]

375 Win is shorter than 38-55.


Yes it is.

But -

The question was


Fire-forming 38-55 brass from 30:30 or 32 spcl

[fishhawk]

OK so this is what I do about the crimp to keep the boolit from being shoved into the case... crimp below the boolit with a factory crimp die and a spacer put the cartridge in to the die from the top and crimp below the boolit.

[Artful]

You have several choices to crimp your 38-55
74190
http://www.frfrogspad.com/miscellg.htm


There are actually three types of crimps, roll, taper, and stabbed.

The purpose of all three types of crimp is to securely and uniformly hold the bullet in the cartridge case. With a roll crimp the case neck is literally rolled either into the bullet material or a groove in the bullet to secure it. To ensure even tensioning cases which are to be roll crimped need to be trimmed to a uniform length. Roll crimps are primarily used on cartridges that headspace on the rim or case shoulder.

The taper crimp is used primarily with cartridge that headspace on the case mouth with lead bullets. While it can be used to secure jacketed bullets this can lead to bullet distortion. With a taper crimp the mouth of the case a run into a die with a tapered opening that squeezes the diameter of the neck down enough to grip the bullet securely but still leaves enough metal to headspace on the chamber.

Stab or ring crimping, used only on jacketed ammunition, consists either several impressed dimples or a groove pressed into the case mouth by a collet. The crimp can either enter a groove on the bullet or can just be pressed into the bullet body (which distorts the bullet). It is primarily used on military or commercial heavy caliber hunting ammunition where rough handling may be encountered. It is the least conducive to accuracy.

And actually you can use the stab/ring crimp with good effect on a boolit as well. But to answer your question you need to shorten your die by the amount the case is shorter than the factory spec, this will bring crimping shoulder, the part of the die that does the work, to the point where it can crimp the shorter cases.

74191

The idea is to move the crimping shoulder down to reach the shorter case mouth

On the lee factory crimp die you would have to shorten the collet
74192

[cwheel]

There is no doubt that the few I fire formed would work out fine, they would go bang. But the object here is to load them all, to same POI should the grandson mix them. Also think @100 yards they would be somewhat close. Having a few cases 2.000 long in a batch of 500 would not be good. The Winchester and Imperial I had to ream the case mouths to .377 to get .381 boolits to chamber were all trimmed to 2.085 and very close to the same weight when finished. That matching weight should give the cases the same volume, and the boolit pull should be close as well. I can crimp these with my Lee FCD just fine. My object here is to give my grandson the same point of impact no matter what round he pulls from the ammo can. Guess if I couldn't get brass for this 38-55 any more, the fire formed brass would sure be a option, and would be made to work. Just don't need to go there yet, thanks to all for the opinions though, helped me think this thing through.
Chris

[Idaho Mule]

Chris, first thing I would do is make sure grandson is aware and in the know of all this information. Could be very valuable for him in the future. JW

[cwheel]

Yes, this one will require more thought than the other 15 calibers he will end up getting. Going to write all of this down and place in one of the ammo cans for a future reference. Still working on the powder charge rear sight zero for this. Got the load to somewhere between 28.5 to 29.0 gr. Doing workup loads in increments of .1 gr. now. If 100 is zero, then with the sight flipped up, and slider at the bottom, the new zero @150. Last test @28.5 gr. gave 1575 fps through the chrony. Thinking that the zero should be in the 1600 fps ball park with the 265 gr. gas checks and a 20" barrel. Still very little signs of pressure. Not looking to hot rod this one. Almost glad I let this one sit in the safe for all of those years until I was older and had more time and patents.
Chris