Trouble with pan lube

[gmich]

First off, I am new to casting. Thought I was doing great, everything fell into place and with my two new Lee 6 bullet molds I started turning out really nice cast Boolits. Then I tried the pan lube and that's were it all comes apart. I viewed many videos and settled on a recipe that was 1 pound beeswax and 1 pound lithium white grease, I added in a heavy squirt of Lee Liquid Alox.
The first time I pan lubed everything went as it should except except when the time came to punch out the bullets (oops, Boolits) no wax was staying in the wax groove. My opinion of the wax was that it was more like modeling clay consistency. So I thought, okay, the guy gave the wrong proportions of wax to lithium grease. I then took all the wax and melted another pound of beeswax into it. It formed up much harder, more like a rick solid modeling clay though rather than like the original beeswax. You can play around with the finished product and mold the wax just like clay. Certainly thought it has the toughness I was looking for. So I repeated the pan lube process only to have the exact same thing happen. I push the boolits out (I tried both directions) and almost none of the wax stays in the wax groove. What am I doing wrong? Is the wax groove not deep enough on Lee molds? This is not the tumble style molds but the regular single wax groove 230 grain truncated cone for the .452, also get the same results with the Lee .357 6 bullet mold as well, so I think not on the idea of too shallow a groove. What can you guys suggest, maybe a pound of paraffin added in as well?
I just don't know what to do. i am dead certain the proportions mentioned in the video was a 1 to 1 of wax to grease and elsewhere I saw adding in a entire bottle of Alox, I only added in maybe a tablespoon, so I doubt that hurt anything, likely it would help the gripping once it set up. Help:(

[BBQJOE]

I can't imagine one part grease and one part beeswax ever hardening.
See my sig.
I've never pan lubed but plan to soon, after I make a batch of ben's red.

[Idz]

To get the lube to stick I put the bullets in pan that rests above boiling water to make a double-boiler. I let the bullets and lube heat up together and remove from the heat after all the lube melts. Then I let it cool at room temperature. Heating the bullets seems to help the lube stick better. While many people say they push out bullets I've never had that work well. Instead I made a lube cutter from a 6" piece of 1/2" emt conduit. I cut the head off an correct size case and make a bushing that I can solder the case into the conduit. Ream out the case so a bullet just slips through. I can then just push the cutter tool over the lube bullet and it slips up into the conduit, after a dozen or so bullets I dump them into a container. Lube I use is 2.5 oz beeswax, 2.5 oz paraffin, 2.5 oz petroleum jelly, 1/2 teaspoon stp oil treatment, 1/2 red crayon.
good luck

[44Vaquero]

Are you using a Kake Cutter or just trying to push them out?

[gmich]

I did let the bullets warm up the 2nd time, thinking that perhaps the cold lead was stopping the flow or adhesion. Worse if nit the same. I push them out since all the videos I saw said that was all that was needed. Here is an image of what I end up with.73501

[zidave]

I've never tried that recipe but I pan lube and push the bullets out of the hardened lube with no problems so it's not the lube grooves. Try a lube cutter, goes around the bullet and removes it from the lube.

[gmich]

I have tried knifing them out and other methods. The problem as I see it is the lube wont stay in the grooves. I can manually pack wax around the groove then run it up through the Le sizer and it then looks good but the darned wax is still easy enough to wipe out of the grooves if I am not careful. I wonder what I can add that will really make it stick and not be so pliable. Even with the extra pound of wax, you can still play with the stuff like it was very stiff clay, whereas wax you cannot really model with it once it is cold.

[RobsTV]

Try cutting them out with fired (unsized) brass, spent primer removed, and use a toothpick or small pick/screwdriver tip to eject the cut boolit out of the brass case cutter.

But still looks way to soft to me. Mine is not moldable like clay when hard, almost like candle wax, but different recipes. Have to cut off pieces with a knife to add to pan. If it is moldable, mine needs to cool longer. There is a sweet spot to wait when lube hardens, too soon or too late and poor results removing boolits. The can make a "Pop" sound when plucking them out. If using fired brass as a cutter, do not press all the way down with beveled base boolits like you have, and the results will be clean, lube free bases.

[gmich]

What is your recipe? I waited 24 hours this last time, do you think that was not long enough? Last time was shorter, I did it when I thought the wax was as solid as it was going to get. I wonder if melting in a [pound of paraffin would stiffen up the whole mess.

[RobsTV]

Wait time is only about 20 minutes. 15 and too soft. 25 and too hard. I cheat and save time and effort by using Carnauba Red.

[gmich]

wow, that is a short time. I saw a video were the guy said it was 24 hours later than he demonstrated how to punch them out. The carnauba may be the reason for sure, I don't drink Makers Mark so I don't have a access to that wax. Nothing to lose though, I guess I will try Parafin before I just give up and go to tumble lubing. Thanks for all the help.

[44Vaquero]

I would just make a cutter, I really don't care for hard lubes on slow moving pistol bullets. The lube that I use on my .45s for 1858 Remington Konversion is semi-soft and needs to used with a Kake-cutter. It's really not that tough to accomplish.

[gmich]

ok, i was worried that even if i got the groove filled it would be less effective. But how can lithium grease and wax, even if soft , not be of some value.. Do you let them cure or shoot right away.

[bangerjim]

Check out "powder coating boolits" thread here and your problems will all go away!

[Mlcompound]

Add some Parrafin to harden the mix. Mine is very hard but feels slimy to touch. I am using barry darrs recipe (1 part Parrafin 1 part vaseline 1 dash stp oil treatment). I am going to try the old nra foemula next (1 part Parrafin 1 part beeswax 1 part vaseline). I push them out from the bottom once completely hard. There may be a few that arent completely full but all work great.

[shadowcaster]

Time can make a big difference on how easy your boolits cut/push out depending on the lube. I have not had problems like yours even after waiting 24 hours, but then I am using a different recipe.

Shad

[hendere]

I'm pretty new to pan lubing also (been tumble lubing for years) and I mixed up a one to one ratio of white lithium grease to beeswax because I had the stuff sitting around. I guess it's hard to tell from a photo but mine looks about the same as yours. I've been cutting them out with the fired case method (search around, lots of info about it and it's not hard) and have had no problems whatsoever. Actually if I would have known it was this easy I would have started a long time ago.
I would like to add that it seems that there are many kinds of "white lithium grease" out there and I think some are different than others. That could be an issue too I guess.

[FergusonTO35]

Pan loobing has been a real learning process for me too. I would recommend starting with some 50-50 beeswax and alox to get your technique down. I have found it is very pan lube friendly.

[runfiverun]

white lith grease, #2 chassis grease, and wheel bearing grease are not the same.
they all have different oxidizer additives and lithium stearate amounts.

[fryboy]

never had much luck just pushing the boolits out ,my best results has been with the "whack it crack it " method second best with a kake cutter , the whack it is just as it sounds , it breaks the seal so to speak and then they push out rather easy and clean and usually full of loob
as for tack beeswax has some tackiness all it's own and a bit of lanolin would add more , my best results with pan lubing is around 60-75% wax to the remainder grease/vaseline , every mix will have it's own favorite temp so even changing a mix would mean relearning it's "best" usage range, you of course , get to find it lolz
another note ...from your foto the loob grooves look a lil rounded on the bearing edges , too much heat would cause this ( the frosting verifies this ) the middle boolit shows a much sharper bottom edge than the other two tho it's top groove edge is still slightly rounded , lowering your melt temp/casting cadence would possibly help as well in my humble opinion

[RobsTV]

Another important part of lube is where are you located? If like me, you are in an area where temperatures rarely drop below 70, and are in the 80's and 90's+ most of the time, you need a lube that is hard enough to stay put. My BP lube seems hard and brittle, but after being outdoors a couple hours, it starts to get sloppy, and nearly melts away in the cylinders when used in 1858 Remington after a few rounds.

[somdgunner]

apply corn starch to the boolits before you pour the batter in the pan.

[GSRacer]

1st time I pan lubed my boolits I got about 25% of them that had wax in the groove. The next time I used a fired case without primer and sized the Inside Diameter so the cast boolit slipped into the case. I press the case over the boolit with my thumb, and press the boolit out of the case with a nail. Takes a little longer but only messed up 1 boolit out of 100 last time I did it.

[sthwestvictoria]

as for tack beeswax has some tackiness all it's own and a bit of lanolin would add more , my best results with pan lubing is around 60-75% wax to the remainder grease/vaseline ,
Absolutely.
I use 70% bee wax, 26% vaseline, 2% lanolin (sold at pharmacy's) and 2% crayon for colour (by weight), works perfectly. The bullets are stood up in a silicone pan cold, molted lube poured around them. Allowed to cool to a plastic consistency then the cake of lube with bullets in is lifted out and bullets pushed out base first. I think this was from Char-Gar here on the forum and Australian writer Nick Harvey.

What recipe is the the 50:50 BW:lithium grease? Where did you get it from? Perhaps that person is using it in a lubesizer, not panlubing.

[MT Chambers]

Get yourself a good lube/sizer, life's too short to be playing around in the mud.

[Lead Fred]

Put yer boolits in the pan, with no wax, heat them for 30 minutes @ 200 degrees. <---- heats the boolits, wax adheres to them better
Then pour the wax into your heated pan.
Ive always used 1lb bees wax, 1lb lard, 1 bottle STP.
Gets good and hard, and sticks like glue

MT Id rather waste my money on other things. A lubrasizer is a fancy machine that does not do any better than pan lubing.

[gmich]

So, I added a bit of candle wax to the mix, maybe it helps. For sure what seems to work though is taking a 45-70 and cutting them out. I still end up with a sticky coating on the ogive and the base from the pan and sort of settled on dragging the bullet base across a scotch-brite pad to scrape of the wax there and after loaded I use 91% alcohol on a rag and wipe off the remaining wax above the case mouth and bullet itself. They look good and seem to shoot okay. For sure, if it was not so much fun ( I know, how twisted is that) all the extra work would not be worth it but even if the market was flush with cast bullets to buy, I don't think I ever will again. Just one more thing that brings me closer to 100%. I assume you all know what I mean even if I cant find the correct phraseology. Thanks everybody, if you have cleaner and less messy methods, bring them on.

[mac60]

Get yourself a good lube/sizer, life's too short to be playing around in the mud.

As I went through the thread looking at the replies I wondered when I'd see it. When I started casting I pan lubed. I very quickly realized why some call it "pain lubing". I saved my pennies and when I saw a Lyman 450 at a gun show for $50.00 I couldn't get my wallet out fast enough. It is my sincere hope that I never have to "pain lube" another boolit.

[Js-Shot]

we must have been watching same video, I went 50/50 white lithum grease and beezwax, didnt work well for me either, and yeah I saw him just push them out as well, I ended up with about 90/10 the 10 being the white lithum grease, sets up more solid now, I am trying to get like the waxmiester punch right now, even if I have to make my own, like you I have only recently started casting my own (bout 6 months) it is fun, just to dang hot in my garage right now!

[gundownunder]

I use 1/3 beeswax, 1/3 high pressure lithium grease, and 1/3 liquid Alox. First melt the beeswax, but don't burn it. Second, add the Alox and mix it in while maintaining heat. Then add the lithium grease, lithium grease has a very high melting point so don't even try to melt it. Turn off the heat and stir till all the lumps of grease are mixed in, you may need to warm the mix up once or twice during mixing to get all the grease mixed in. Once all three ingredients are thoroughly blended you will find it all melts into a liquid form without any problems.

Stand the bullets in a tray, add lube till the right height is reached then warm everything back up with a hot air gun. Once everything is nice and warm I leave it to set and then use a cutter to remove bullets from pan. Refill the holes where the bullets came out of and then use heat gun to reheat pan till all the lube is melted again and the bullets are hot. If you want to increase production use two pans and put one pan in the fridge to set while you cut, refill, and heat, the other.

I use this lube in a 357 rifle to drive a 175gr bullet at 1750 fps. I have used it at temperatures ranging from 37deg in winter, up to 110 deg in summer and it has worked perfectly at all temperatures. No leading, and barrel cleaning is achieved with just a few cotton patches.

[tyeo098]

1 lb Gulf Paraffin wax (sold at walmart near the jello, 1lb box)
1 Jar vaseline (solt at walmart near the pharmacy)
2 TBSP STP Oil treatment (Sold at walmart in auto parts)

Melt, at a crayon or 2 for color, pour around boolets in a cookie sheet, and pull out with pliers.

[gundownunder]

If you are getting lube everywhere I would suggest your lube is still too soft I twist mine out of the lube and only have to wipe the base of about 1 in 10. If you use a cutter don't use the easy push through type as they will spread lube the length of the pipe and then wipe it along the full length of the bullet. If you use a plunger type cutter the lube will stay where it belongs and you will have almost no lube above the crimp groove.

[Jim..47]

I've been working on a pan lube formula also without the luck I need, but its too late tonight to go into detail. I'll follow up in a day or so. I wouldn't give up on the pan lubing, just try another formula as others here have suggested, but using very small amounts until you know it works for you. I'll be doing the same thing.

The good thing is, once you're figured it out you will be able to help others. Also, I've used the lube sizer for 30 years or so, and it can be very messy and cause the bullets to be messy alsos, if not done right.

[fixit156]

Hey Gmich

I had the same problem that you had when I started pan lubing. Here how I solve it. Put the boolits in a pan then use a heat gun to heat them up to 140 degrees. Then I pour Flex lube in the pan. I found when it cools to 70 degrees. I can push them out from the base of the bullet.
Hope this helps.
I also own a RCBS Lube-A-Matic. I use it mostly for seating gas checks.
Fixit

[Jim..47]

Hey Gmich

I had the same problem that you had when I started pan lubing. Here how I solve it. Put the boolits in a pan then use a heat gun to heat them up to 140 degrees. Then I pour Flex lube in the pan. I found when it cools to 70 degrees. I can push them out from the base of the bullet.
Hope this helps.
I also own a RCBS Lube-A-Matic. I use it mostly for seating gas checks.
Fixit


Sounds good, but would you care to share your formula for "Flex Lube"?

[fixit156]

Felix Lube formula

2 Tablespoons mineral oil- (ATF Dexron 3) -
1 Tablespoon castor oil
1 Tablespoon Ivory, or homemade soap (grated)
1 Tablespoon Lanolin - add when temp is below 125deg
1 Teaspoon carnauba wax
Beeswax - Piece approximately 3 1/2" X 3 1/2" X 1 " weighs 7.0oz 200grams
(small piece of paraffin, about the size of 2 sugar cubes) to stiffen it (harder pan lube)

Heat mineral (baby) oil until it starts to smoke. 250 deg.

Add castor oil, and stir continuously for 1/2 hour.

Sliver the soap, and stir into the mixture a little at a time, until melted.

Add the beeswax before the lanolin, and then when that is melted, reduce or remove the heat and add the lanolin, thus not running any risk of burning or scorching the lanolin.

1 teaspoon of carnauba wax can be added to give a shiny bore. This can be found on the seal of Makers Mark whiskey, or the red wax on cheese from the supermarket.

Once made, let cool. This can be re-melted in a microwave, and poured into the lubricator.

[Jim..47]

Thanks a bunch for your formula and instructions.
If I get lucky I might have a chance to use it this week or next!

[dmclark523]

I'm not sure about your recipe, I just use 50/50 Beeswax/Xlox from LSStuff. I've never had success making my own lube.

This may or may not help, but I line up my boolits in the pan upright, and hit them with a hair-dryer on high for a minute or two until
they are almost to hot to pick up.

Once I pour the lube and let it cool, I never have a problem.

[zidave]

1 lb Gulf Paraffin wax (sold at walmart near the jello, 1lb box)
1 Jar vaseline (solt at walmart near the pharmacy)
2 TBSP STP Oil treatment (Sold at walmart in auto parts)

Melt, at a crayon or 2 for color, pour around boolets in a cookie sheet

This is the exact recipe I use. Haven't had a single problem with it not sticking in the grooves as long as the hardened cake doesn't break in the process of pushing out the boolits. No leading either

[Jim..47]

Felix Lube formula

2 Tablespoons mineral oil- (ATF Dexron 3) -
1 Tablespoon castor oil
1 Tablespoon Ivory, or homemade soap (grated)
1 Tablespoon Lanolin - add when temp is below 125deg
1 Teaspoon carnauba wax
Beeswax - Piece approximately 3 1/2" X 3 1/2" X 1 " weighs 7.0oz 200grams
(small piece of paraffin, about the size of 2 sugar cubes) to stiffen it (harder pan lube)

Heat mineral (baby) oil until it starts to smoke. 250 deg.

Add castor oil, and stir continuously for 1/2 hour.

Sliver the soap, and stir into the mixture a little at a time, until melted.

Add the beeswax before the lanolin, and then when that is melted, reduce or remove the heat and add the lanolin, thus not running any risk of burning or scorching the lanolin.

1 teaspoon of carnauba wax can be added to give a shiny bore. This can be found on the seal of Makers Mark whiskey, or the red wax on cheese from the supermarket.

Once made, let cool. This can be re-melted in a microwave, and poured into the lubricator.



I forgot to ask, can this formula also be used as a "pan lube"?

[fixit156]

Yes I pan lube 90percent of the time. Here is a link about the Felix lube
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?543-Felix-Lube-the-Short-Version

It's a sticker in the lube thread the maker is Felix. He explains how he develop it. I been using it for three months now with my cowboy guns over 2000 rounds fired. Between my Ruger 38 revolvers and 1873 lever action rifle. No leading and you see the rifling looking like new. Last year I had a bad leading problem.

[fixit156]

Here is one of my 9mm from NOE mold that I pan lubed
75486

[Jim..47]

That is a great looking bullet, lube and all. I hope to soon be lubing like those. I have been having a little problem with heat and temp control, but I now have a new/old stove with a small oven out of an old camper. Should be a big help, and I'm also going to try casting bullets on it.

[tyeo098]

That is a great looking bullet, lube and all. I hope to soon be lubing like those. I have been having a little problem with heat and temp control, but I now have a new/old stove with a small oven out of an old camper. Should be a big help, and I'm also going to try casting bullets on it.

Double. Boiler.