Another Myth?

[mdi]

I was looking at another forum and one poster stated that you needed a "hard alloy" for shooting at higher velocities because "soft lead does not like to spin at high velocities" and "it can/will disrupt and even come apart". Well my reaction was "Hmmm, ya don't say" :groner:, and immediately round filed it. Anybody else ever heard this?

[Mk42gunner]

New one to me.

Robert

[BBQJOE]

:popcorn:

[Tazman1602]

Uh-Huh. BULLPUCKY!..............yes, I've heard that before but it is total and complete BS.........

Art

[Hickory]

Let the dogs bark, our parade will go on.

[462]

That's not been my experience. And, it's one more reason why I don't belong to nor read any other forums.

[felix]

Not exactly, but can be so in some rare circumstances. Some "crazy" lead alloys will crack when water dropped, and those projectiles are to be suspected for accuracy failure at any range. Making stable boolits is of utmost importance for BR work! A boolit's hardness has little to do with pinpoint accuracy, provided the boolit is composed of metals such that the boolit is somewhat elastic enough to travel through the complete system (includes outside of the gun) without distortion until the target is met. ... felix

[dakotashooter2]

If it's fast and soft enough to "spin apart" it's probably stripping the rifling and not spinning at all............BUT.....Please forward the question to MYTHBUSTERS.......................

[Marlin Junky]

...you needed a "hard alloy" for shooting at higher velocities because "soft lead does not like to spin at high velocities" and "it can/will disrupt and even come apart". Well my reaction was "Hmmm, ya don't say" :groner:, and immediately round filed it. Anybody else ever heard this?

That doesn't even bare the logic to become a myth... it's more like BS from someone talking out his AH.

I've shot very soft alloy accurately at 2500 fps... all that was needed was a paper jacket to protect it from damage that would be otherwise imparted to it from the barrel.

MJ

[DeanWinchester]

I used to work at trying to correct these myths and really wore the finish off my soapbox.
I don't even want to correct these people any more. If you teach them different they'll just be another mouth to feed, consuming hard to find components.
Let them stuff their little copper condoms and sing praises of their own superiority. Meanwhile, I have some more clover leaf patterns to shoot....for less than a dime per shot.

[dragon813gt]

I used to care and try to impart what little wisdom I have acquired. I found it was a fool's errand. They had no interest in hearing anyone speak but themselves. So now I just agree and urge them to keep shooting jacketed. Less competition for lead is the upside to this.

[Dan Cash]

What is not defined is the term "high velocity." I have driven a jacketed bullet fast enough that it came apart in a cloud of lead smoke. I don't know if it was rotational velocity or linear velocity that did the trick and I don't know what the velocity was but it was over 3500fps I am sure. 2400 fps is the fastest I have ever driven a cast, paper patched bullet and it showed no indication of coming apart or other instability.

[williamwaco]

mdi,

There are two types of people posting on these forums.

1) There are people who have read a lot about shooting and reloading and think they know it all.

2) There are people who have actually DONE a lot of shooting and reloading and know they don't know it all but they know what they know because they actually did it, not because they read it somewhere.


This board has a very high percentage of type 2 people.


.

[blikseme300]

^^^ As WW says. Unfortunately the 2nd group is very small.

[ku4hx]

I was looking at another forum and one poster stated that you needed a "hard alloy" for shooting at higher velocities because "soft lead does not like to spin at high velocities" and "it can/will disrupt and even come apart". Well my reaction was "Hmmm, ya don't say" :groner:, and immediately round filed it. Anybody else ever heard this?

Won't matter. Everybody knows cast boolits are very abrasive and will ruin you bore. Once the bore is gone nothing will shoot well. I was told that in person at my own gun club a number of years ago.

[JeffinNZ]

Hang on a minute. Depends.

In any given mould a harder alloy will cast lighter projectiles so this may generate slightly more velocity for a given load. That said, Glen Fryxell has written this (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm) showing that a harder alloy produced less velocity.

[Bullshop]

I have driven ww alloy boolits in 30 to 22 sabot from a 30/06 with 1/10" twist up to 4200 fps. Grouping was not great but not bad. Dropping velocity to 3900 fps yielded 5 shot 100 yards group at about 1.1" for the best group and maybe about 1.5" average.
There were no boolit blow ups until after contact with the target.

[mdi]

Hey now, I didn't say I believed it! I thought you fellers would like a chuckle. I believe the "expert" was talking about 2600-2700 fps. I've read of jacketed bullets coming apart at near 4,000 fps, but that's a whole different chicken...

[Wayne Smith]

Hang on a minute. Depends.

In any given mould a harder alloy will cast lighter projectiles so this may generate slightly more velocity for a given load. That said, Glen Fryxell has written this (http://www.lasc.us/FryxellCBAlloyObturation.htm) showing that a harder alloy produced less velocity.

After reading that I learned one thing: Glenn never read Dr. Mann's "The Bullet's Flight"! He's got pictures of obduration of a boolit fired out of a revolver w/o a barrel. I may not understand everything he wrote but I sure can look at pictures!

[jonp]

Theoretically you can indeed cause a projectile to "spin apart" if enough torque is applied. I'm not sure that you could do that with a reasonable velocity from a pistol barrel. The bigger problem at such a velocity would be bullet instability.

[HARRYMPOPE]

I wont say they come apart but for my 30 BR @ 2000 fps Linotype or hardened WW always outshot straight WW or softer alloys.
You will find most of the top competitive cast bullet Benchrest shooters do shoot hard alloys.

George

[uscra112]

I think Harrison did some engineering calculations on this and proved it was hogwash. Forgotten where I read it, though.

I keep wondering whether independent "explanations" of phenomena are a bad thing or good thing. On the one hand they're usually wrong, but on the other hand they do occasionally overturn orthodoxy, to the betterment of mankind.

[Win94ae]

When I shoot a Hornady 110gr FMJ at over 3100fps, (3100fps is Hornady's recommended maximum velocity,) with my 1 in 10 twist 30-06, they come apart.

[dragonrider]

I recall a fellow at our range who told of the real reason for copper jackets, because lead boolits can't spin fast enough to stabilize with coming apart, hence the copper jacket to hold bullit together. It seemed that in his mind all lead boolits would fly apart shortly after leaving the barrel. I got the impression that he did not like lead boolits, or did not know how to cast and was too lazy to learn. The latter I think.

[MtGun44]

IF it happens, it is very rare and not a real world problem. I doubt it would
happen at anything like normal cast boolit velocities.
I have blown up thin skinned bullets with a .22-250, but that was up near
4000 fps. I actually think that at these extreme velocities (almost Mach
4!) the aerodynamic heating might play role.

Bill

[mroliver77]

I noticed that there seems to be many of that type migrating here to CB and bringing their "old wives tales" with them. At times it seems our site is regressing! :(
J

[Marlin Junky]

...I have blown up thin skinned bullets with a .22-250, but that was up near 4000 fps. I actually think that at these extreme velocities (almost Mach 4!) the aerodynamic heating might play role.

Bill

If there's a heat component contributing to in-flight bullet destruction, I would think it would be from bullet/barrel friction. Actually, I wouldn't be surprised to discover that the shear stress imparted to the bullet by the rifling (the bullet's maximum rotational acceleration is never greater than it is at the muzzle) coupled with the atmospheric pressure is what blows the lil' suckers apart.

One of these days, develop a 22-250 load that just barely blows 'em at sea level, then shoot 'em at 10,000 feet. :bigsmyl2:

(Actually, 4000 fps is more like Mach 3.5)

MJ

[JIMinPHX]

Actually, there is a shred of truth to this, but the conditions for it to happen are pretty extreme. I've encountered the phenomenon twice.

The first time I ran into this, I was loading Hornady SPSX bullets in a .223 at near max powder charge. They shot OK out of a 1:12 barrel, but when I tried them in a 1:9, I never got a hole in the target. They disintegrated at the muzzle. The SPSX is a very thin skinned varmint bullet that is designed to open violently when it hits a small target. The extra RPM from the faster twist pushed them over the limit. The bullets were probably 40 or 50 grain & the speed was probably well over 3,000fps.

The second time it happened to me, I was loading Hornady 90-gr XTP .30 cal pistol bullets in a .30-30 to get around some caliber restrictions for hunting ground hogs in NJ. I managed to push those pistol bullets up over their limits too. The scenario was about the same. It was a soft, thin-skinned bullet that was designed to open normally at typical pistol velocities. Max rifle speeds proved too much for it. After I toned them down a bit, the accuracy was fair, and the terminal impact characteristics on small critters was pretty darn messy.

This was many years ago, before I started to cast.

[waksupi]

I noticed that there seems to be many of that type migrating here to CB and bringing their "old wives tales" with them. At times it seems our site is regressing! :(
J

That is why we give them a gentle spanking, and set them upon the true path. If we won't do it, who will?

[leeggen]

Had a Remington 700 BDL in 17cal Rem. We push the little 25 grain Jacketed to 4200fps. At 10 ft from muzzle we set a sheet of newspaper and it looked like a shotgun peppered it. Little buggers just could not handle the heat ----literally. Contacted a Mr.Saunders, I believe was his name and he corrected me to shoot at 3800 fps. and that little bullet would shoot great, it did to. Armadillas didn't stand a chance!!!
CD

[dromia]

If its on the internet then it must be true, must it not?

It is our own knowledge and experience that lets us place a value on whatever information we may find.

Context is important.

[PS Paul]

I've heard the mythical "liquefaction" phenomenon could/would happen at "anything over 2,200"!

Imagine, your boolit hits the target in a splotch of searing-hot molten lead, liquified! "I splattered that critter to death" with liquefaction. he he

[303Guy]

Actually, it is true - sometimes. Very rarely actually. But it does happen and when it does it seems the boolit does a spiral trick as it leaves the muzzle, forming a corkscrew like form which elongates as it spins sideways. One of our members recovered some of these and posted pictures. These strange projectiles hit the target sideways - yes, hit the target! If I remember correctly, these had not skidded the rifling. However, one recorded instance of weird stuff does not make it the rule!

Driving jaxketeds at too high a velocity can destroy accuracy by bulging the jacket (I'm repeating what I've read and heard from a gunsmith - my late uncle). On air friction heating, remember the Blackbird? It's black to radiate heat from air friction - it travelled as fast as a very high speed bullet. Those things got very hot. Air friction heating would be added to barrel friction heating.

[jonp]

Won't matter. Everybody knows cast boolits are very abrasive and will ruin you bore. Once the bore is gone nothing will shoot well. I was told that in person at my own gun club a number of years ago.
I let a young friend of mine try a couple of my cast in his 45acp and his buddies told they would ruin his pistol and would not work. This was last week. I told him to not listen to his stupid buddies as they did not know squat and would get him in trouble

[trapper9260]

I had some that told me that CB are danger to shoot in your gun and I told them do you do any reloading and they said no.Too many out there do not want to really learn about what they do not really know about .I know on here I keep learning .I do not claim to know every thing , but for what I do know I like to past it on . I know we are all here to help each other ,for the ones that like to have it .I also had some one that like was stated that will only shoot jacket and not cast because it will ruin the gun .Well leave more lead for the rest of us .I want to thank you all for all you post. it all helps me .

[Hickory]

The first time I ran into this, I was loading Hornady SPSX bullets in a .223 at near max powder charge. They shot OK out of a 1:12 barrel, but when I tried them in a 1:9, I never got a hole in the target. They disintegrated at the muzzle. The SPSX is a very thin skinned varmint bullet that is designed to open violently when it hits a small target. The extra RPM from the faster twist pushed them over the limit. The bullets were probably 40 or 50 grain & the speed was probably well over 3,000fps.

A few years ago I put a Lija 1 in 10 twist on one of my prairie dog guns.(223)
The faster twist caused some of the 55-57gr that I make to blow up (2-3 per 100)
When I make and use 59-60gr bullets the problem goes away.

Heaver bullet traveling at a slower velocity produces fewer RPM, hence, less likely to blow up.

[JIMinPHX]

I had some that told me that CB are danger to shoot in your gun

I'm only aware of one gun that came from the factory with instructions not to shoot lead in it. That was the old style Ruger .44 mag semi-auto carbine with the tubular magazine. I believe that the reason was a fear of clogging up the gas passages, but I'd have to read up on it a little before I could confirm that.

[williamwaco]

Actually, it is true - sometimes. Very rarely actually. But it does happen and when it does it seems the boolit does a spiral trick as it leaves the muzzle, forming a corkscrew like form which elongates as it spins sideways. One of our members recovered some of these and posted pictures. These strange projectiles hit the target sideways - yes, hit the target! If I remember correctly, these had not skidded the rifling. However, one recorded instance of weird stuff does not make it the rule!

Driving jaxketeds at too high a velocity can destroy accuracy by bulging the jacket (I'm repeating what I've read and heard from a gunsmith - my late uncle). On air friction heating, remember the Blackbird? It's black to radiate heat from air friction - it travelled as fast as a very high speed bullet. Those things got very hot. Air friction heating would be added to barrel friction heating.

I have seen this "evaporation" several times. - more than a few but less than a lot.

It ranges from sprinkling the target around the bullet hole with drops of lead up to a grey streak of smoke from about 50 to 75 yards then nothing at the backstop.
The most interesting is a perfectly round bullet hole with a perfect spiral of lead splatters ranging in about a half circle around the hole.

I have only seen this with light weight .22 cal varmint bullets in large capacity cases - .22-250, .225, .22 Swift.

In those days it never occurred to most people to even ask about twist. There was just one standard twist for each caliber. If we had stability problems with long bullets, we just shot shorter bullets.

[Harter66]

During my earliest forays into cast bullets(that store bought stuff), I blew up several loads . It was something like 14gr of Unique benind a too hard,too small 180 gr plain base that probably would've been fine PP'd in a 303 instead of naked in an 06'. Gobs of lead in the bore,clouds of smoke and blue streaks to about 15 yd. There was this shattering glass sound too. I'm better now. I'm pretty sure the bullet blew up probably 2100 out of a 1-8 twist poor fit too hard poof.

[DrCaveman]

Man, good thing this site is here to help people NOT DO THIS STUPID (edit) that makes people hate and degrade the shooting of cast boolits. Sorry for the blatant sidestep of rules, but it is worth it if a few more people can realize how capable and competitive cast boolits may be.

Hoarding lead away from those who would appreciate and benefit from it? Cmon brothers you are above that. We are not fat cats trying to steal a market, this is about information exchange and the betterment of fellow like minded shooters!

Share good things to good people, and you also will benefit.

[Jaak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTJaNHjEa_k

[303Guy]

Holy Cow! That was amazing! Most of those bullets blew up at the same point then came close then began to blow inconsistently. Different load perhaps? Barrel heating leading to jacket heating? Anyway, that was good. Thanks for posting. The camera wasn't too shabby either - zooming in like that at the targets.