More powder Needed?

[ColColt]

I just got a stash of BP today and have been fiddling with a load for the 45-90 tonight. I found if I use my old 38 year old Dixie Gun Works powder measure set at 75 grains of Goex 2F and slowly pour via a short funnel(no drop tube yet)into the case and tap the bottom of the case ten times I get a measure of .535" from the mouth of the case. Add a .030" wad brings it to .565" then compress to the .625" needed to put the powder/wad to the base of the Postel bullet gives a compression of .060" Is that enough for Goex? I'll need another 3/16th inch to get .250" compression.

Of course I had to weigh that charge and it was exactly 68 grains using an electronic scale.

[CanoeRoller]

I used to mash my Goex about 1 grease groove in addition to the initial compression in my 45-70 Sharps. This produced a very tight group. Purists cringe at me doing that.

There is no hard rule about how much compression you need, as each rifle, brass, powder, primer and boolit combination is different. That is the joy and frustration of BP shooting. It can sometimes take quite a while to get a load that works for your rifle. Once you find that load, that is the joy.

[ColColt]

I had read Goex could take up to .300" or so and .060" seemed rather shallow.

[montana_charlie]

I'll need another 3/16th inch to get .250" compression.

Of course I had to weigh that charge and it was exactly 68 grains using an electronic scale.
Go ahead and add the 3/16 of an inch. Or, better yet, start with a weighed charge of 75 grains and work up from there in 2 grain increments.

I have used compression amounts up to .400" with Goex, but generally stay between .250" and .350".
.060 will 'eliminate airspace' - but that's about all.

[country gent]

Work up from there in 2 grain incriments leaving compression die set for overall length with the postell bullet. You will find the sweet spot. I have found that to a point as compression goes up fouling drops with Goex. I have been using a slow pour from 2-3" above the funnel with almost the same results as a drop tube. Change only one thing at a time working up load. Find sweet spot with powder. adjust seating depth to sweet spot. Maybe try diffrent powder. Sometimes diffrent wad thicknesses make a diffrence along with lubes. Above all Enjoy the Journey.

[CanoeRoller]

My first attempt at developing a good accurate Bp load took me several months. I was single, no kids, and had a lot of time on my hands. I would go to the range, shoot awfully big groups with a range of powder charges, and head home feeling frustrated. I followed the directions I had closely, and still could see targets thumbing their noses at me at the range. Finally, I found a combination that worked. My groups shrunk to about 2 minutes, and I had found my Shiloh's sweet spot. A couple weekend's tweaking, and the groups shrunk some more. Eventually, I got a second BP rifle, and had to do the process all over again. It is the journey that is a major joy in shooting BP.

Since we are talking Sharps rifles, it is not proper to say, "Be the arrow," but it is proper to say enjoy the journey, and perhaps, "Be the Boolit."

[ColColt]

So, regardless the amount of compression you're still using the die to compress and not the bullet. If the powder/wad is compressed enough whether it be 65 or 75 gr, then you're just seating the base of the bullet on top of the wad and not using it to compress further. Am I finally getting it?:)

The scale can be used to actually measure the charge by weight each time and compress enough to attain that .250-.300" compression.

[w30wcf]

ColColt,
I would suggest compressing the powder first, then seating the wad and bullet rather than compressing the powder with the wad.

Have fun!

w30wcf

[John Allen]

I always compress with a compression die not the bullet. I have been told it can deform the bullet but have not experienced first hand.

[ColColt]

I got my first five rounds loaded today. I found 75 gr of Goex 2F by weight measures 85 by volume. I compressed this to .625", the distance from the powder to case mouth which is the distance from the base of the bullet to the lower drive band that I determined for the seating depth, and added the .030" wad. That compression less wad was .275". A good as any place to start, I suppose. I'm sure all that will change when I switch to Swiss and KIK. I'm assuming that since Swiss doesn't take much compression, I'll have to back off the charge used with Goex.

[country gent]

With my loads I compress with a compression die and the first .030 wad to depth then hand seat the lube cookie and second wad. I lightly 'Kiss" this with the die to insure it is down and no air space is left. Then finger seat the bullet to rest on the wad and that sets overall length.

[ColColt]

No neck sizing or light crimp?

[fouronesix]

As far as sizing or neck sizing- whatever works. If these rounds are for target range only then it doesn't matter if they are only finger seated. If they will be carried or handled then a little bit of neck tension to keep the bullet in place. A little neck tension will be far better than any kind of roll crimp. The ONLY type of crimp that works with PP loads is a light taper crimp either with a taper crimp die or lightly touching them back into the sizer. My 45-110 with PP loads seems to prefer a very light taper crimp where the loaded round is run back into the sizer die and lightly touched by feel.

[ColColt]

When seating the bullet you have to have some degree of flaring of the case mouth. I've only "crimped" enough to get rid of that flare and little more so chambering will be easy.i bought a neck size die but since 90% the brass I have is new, I didn't resize it, just flared the mouth a tad for easy bullet seating.

[fouronesix]

The Lyman M die or similar expander (as sold by BACO) is the best neck expanding tool for this. The best system for depriming is a separate depriming die. That way you can remove the depriming stem from the sizing die (full length or neck).... soooo it can be used for removing any flair and/or put a light taper crimp on the neck/case mouth after the bullet is seated. Be sure to back out your bullet seating die enough so the crimping shoulder in the die doesn't touch the case mouth- usually a turn or so is enough.

[CanoeRoller]

On my current loads, I compress my powder with a double drop tube, (now that will probably get some guys upset) and a make sure that my boolit will just slightly compress against the wad to ensure that there is no gap. I barely crimp my rounds. You can pull the boolit free if you work at it with your bare hands (with my favorite sharps).

My remington prefers a much much tighter crimp, but it is a much fussier rifle in all respects.

[country gent]

Not to high jack the thread, But Canoe Roller what is a double drop tube? Ive never heard that term. A pic of it maybe

[John Boy]

This finger seated 540gr bullet loading data was passed to me by a champion match shooter that he uses for his 45-90 back in 2009. I have used it exactly with success shooting 1000yds ever since except I now use KIK, lot 0903:

John, it looks like you're on the right track. If the 1 1/2 swiss doesn't work try what I do -75 gr of 3F Swiss. This load burns so clean in my gun it looks like a smokeless load when one looks down the barrel after the shot. 75 gr 3F is a zero compression load in my particular gun but it could be 74 or 76 gr in yours. I have also had better luck with Federal 150 m large pistol primers but try all you can, your gun may prefer the BR-2's. In this gun I use 2 wet patches and then a dry bore mop. It makes a difference for sure at 1000 yds on the little things like this on how one controls the fouling between shots.

[Ramar]

"When seating the bullet you have to have some degree of flaring of the case mouth. I've only "crimped" enough to get rid of that flare and little more so chambering will be easy.i bought a neck size die but since 90% the brass I have is new, I didn't resize it, just flared the mouth a tad for easy bullet seating."

ColColt,
All of my bullet seating is by hand and no need for flaring, all can be hand pulled out of fire formed casings. This allows for the most consistent tension on the bullet.

On new brass after annealing, I use a Montana Charlie inspired tool that is made to replicate my fire formed casing dimensions instead of an inconsistent neck flaring and then unflaring.
Ramar

[ColColt]

The expander button on my dies measures .456" and bullets are .459". That gives a neck tension of .003". All the brass I have currently is Starline, save some I got with the rifle that I don't know how many times were fired. I annealed the necks but being new you couldn't hand seat the bullets so expanding/flaring a touch was necessary. I don't know anything about the "Montana Charlie inspired tool" but it sounds intriguing. I'll see how things go once fire formed. It seems to me for better combustion and seating it would need expanding and flaring. I've always done that with all smokeless calibers.

[montana_charlie]

I don't know anything about the "Montana Charlie inspired tool" but it sounds intriguing.
But, I do ...


I'll see how things go once fire formed. It seems to me for better combustion and seating it would need expanding and flaring. I've always done that with all smokeless calibers.
That homemade tool will 'fireform' your cases without firing them.

Saves powder, and can be done whenever you want to.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?146882-Fire-form-brass-help

CM

[CanoeRoller]

73642


Here is my two stage drop tube. I have a 5 inch tube (original to my Ideal number 5) and then a normal drop tube. I started doing this about 20 years ago, and it worked so well, I now load all my BP this way. My Uniflow also has a short brass drop tube, which I use to drop the powder directly into the funnel. The drop tube stand is attached with only one bolt to the main board underneath it, so that I can swing the tubes under either measure, depending on what I am doing at the moment. I also have more than one brass tube, so that I can adjust the length of the drop, and made the tube holder so that I can change the tube I choose to use in a few seconds. I find that drop tubing into a drop tube provides a very uniform level of powder in my cases

Maybe I am naturally contrary, but as others were moving to compression dies, I have moved into more experiments with drop tubing.

[ColColt]

Ingenuous idea, Charlie but, I don't mind fire forming since I'm retired, plenty of money and nothing but time on my hands.:) Moreover, I need a lot of trigger time, learning the sights, experimenting with different loads, compression and brands of powder. In short, I''m a rank novice to BPCR's and need time at the range.

My drop tube came today and I was experimenting with it and found that method will definitely settle about an eighth inch more in the case than by just pouring slowly via a short funnel and tapping the case on the bench ten times. That's going to make my initial compression of .275 the latter way drop a tad...about .125" or so. Or, just add more powder.