New post for a new slug.

[littlejack]

I won a Lyman US.69 Musket mold on flea-bay yesterday. According to Lyman data, it weighs 730 grains, (that would depend on alloy).
The seller said that it mic'd at .688-.689. I am going to give it a whirl in my 870 Remington, with the Hastings rifled barrel. I will definitely have to use it with a wad for a "sabot". If I have to, I can make a sizer to swage it down a couple thousandths. This should be fun??? I think. I need powder charge data for this big boy.
Any one have any loading data for this heavy of a slug. Probably smokeless Paradox loading data would be close, EH?
REgards
Jack

[jmort]

Sound fun. If you don't get an answer, I see what I can dig up on Load Data when I have some time. I'm thinking Steel would be a good choice.

[littlejack]

Thank you sir.

[longbow]

I will take a look at what info I have. I have loaded up to 800 gr. slugs over Blue Dot but will have to check my load.

I believe that Ross Seyfried's Paradox load for 730/740 gr. slug was 21 grs. Unique but let me confirm. I have a copy of the article but will have to dig it up.

I have had no success with 0.690" RB's due to too tight a fit in shotcups but BPI lists a shotcup of theirs and other have had success using 0.690" RB so your "slug" should fit the same shotcups. If you can size it down to 0.685" or a bit less it will fit "standard" shotcups better though.

Let me see what I can find.

In the mean time, you can use heavy shot load data for that slug ~ 730 grs. is about 1 5/8 oz.

Longbow

[hubel458]

I put those 69cal hollowbase slugs in a helix cushion driver 18
wad cup from BPI and used it with 90gr of 4759 in 3.5" case.
I sized it down to .675". I used that wadcup as its built thicker
than most others, and stronger ..

Also expand base of same slug to .700"'
to use in 10ga VP100 thick sided wadcup. Ed

[littlejack]

Thanks fellas for the replies. I probably won't get the mold for about 5-7 days. I will, in the mean time look for any data available.
Jack

[OnHoPr]

That diameter is going to leave you about .040 of gap from boolit diameter to bore. The thinnest pedals I have found on wads is the claybuster wads with about .021 thickness but depending on the actual chamber configurations they might tear or not. If you go to thick with the wad pedal and if your hulls that you use are thicker you may have chambering problems. As for powder that depends on your wad column but longbow's suggestion of the heavy shot loads is roughly decent. Try to look into turbo 1889 post or maybe Dixie slugs data.

[littlejack]

I will probably use Blue Dot, or something very close to that burn rate. I don't know if there is a heavy load for Alliant 2400 powder? I may have to go to a 3" hull. Unless I haven't looked in the right place, I haven't seen any 1 5/8 oz loads in a 2 3/4" hull. There will be combination out there for this slug. All I need to do is get the components. I have a feelin that a hull with this slug in it, doing 1000 -1200 fps, will back up some. I may have to add some lead to the stock to increase the 870's weight.
Jack

[littlejack]

I was just looking at the Alliant data, and Blue Dot seems to be the go to powder for the heavy loads (actually, the only powder). That will make the powder decision for me. There was NO 2400 powder data listed.
It also looks as though I will have to use a 3" hull to get the 1 5/8 oz load data for the musket slug.
When the mold comes, I will cast and measure for size. Then I can determine which wad to try.
Jack

[longbow]

I can't say I have loads that are pressure tested but I think I have some info for 4759 and possibly 4227 for heavy slugs. I am pretty sure I have some info for 4756 as well but maybe not for that heavy a slug. I still haven't had time to dig out the info but will this weekend.

Take a look for Ed Hubel's posts. He has suggested some large loads of IMR4227. Ah! Looking back up the thread he has suggested a rather hefty load of 4759.

When you get over about 1 3/8 oz. slug load data becomes a bit scarce. That's why I tend to like slugs in the 1 to 1 1/2 oz. range. Closer to 525 grs. is good because there is lots of load data for the Lyman 525 gr. slug.

That doesn't help with this big boy though.

There was some discussion about this earlier this year copied below:

"12ga Paradox load data (low pressure slug loads) from book

So I was reading my new copy of Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle" and its very good. Highly recommended. In the back, he lists some pressure tested paradox loads.

Where most of the British double rifle loads for 12bore fall outside the normal operating pressures for our standard 12 ga shotguns, the paradox loads are low pressure. Here are a few examples (note pressure listed is in tpsi= tons per sq inch, which accroding to convert-me.com is simply double the psi times 1000, note if in fact the 't' is British long tonnes, then its a bit more than double factor)

Win case, guilandi wad w petals cut off, Universal clays 27gr, 750gr slug, 1137fps, 3.2tpsi= 6400psi (7168psi if British long tonnes)

Win case, 1 oz wad w petals cut off, Blur Dot 34gr, 735gr slug, 1100fps, 3tpsi= 6000psi (6720psi if brit long tonnes)

and interestingly this one:
Fed Paper case, Win 209 Primer, ccard and cork wads, Unique 21.5-24.5gr, 740gr slug, 1020fps (not sure which powder charge for this velocity and pressure), then lists pressure as "not tested" but credits Sherman Bell w this load and its long track record of safety.

Well..
in this very forum, member Greg5728, helps out w the above load by posting:

2.5" federal paper case, Win 209 primer, 22.0grain Alliant Unique powder, .135" nitro card, .625" cork, 740gr paradox style bullet, 980 FPS at 6960 PSI.(from Armbrust labs)

which fits right in w the above data.

Just thought I would share. I've taken an interest in heavy slugs lately.

C-"

That might give you some useful info.

Longbow

[longbow]

Okay, I just found the old article by Ross Seyfried.

His boolit was 735 grs. in hollow point and 750 grs. solid.

His load was:

- 21.5 grs. Unique
- 0.135" card wad
- 3 1/4" felt wads

I do not see any mention of hull or primer except that he does mention Federal paper hulls being used for the shot loads fired from the same Paradox gun. there is a photo of slug and hull and it the hull looks like paper or plastic but is definitely not brass.

I will have to do more digging to see if I can find my old Blue Dot loads for 800 gr. slug.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Thank you Longbow for all of your help. I appreciate it very much. Good information
Jack

[littlejack]

Hey fellas:
I received the mold today. I done a little cleaning up on it, then started casting. It took me a while to get the slugs to come out right. They kept coming out with wrinkles on them. I kept raising the temperature dial. Finally, they began to smooth out, and fill out. There is so much lead going into this mold, that one has to keep the temperature high to prevent the lead from solidifying before it is all poured into the mold. After casting, I weighed the 46 slugs. They weighed out at 754 grains, with a +/- of .5 grains. There was six slugs that weighed heavy by about 5 grains, they were poured with a different technique (pressure poured). I dropped them back into the pot.
So, I have 40 good slugs that mic out at about .688. I am going to call BPI tomorrow and order some components.
I am also going to make a push through sizer to size the slugs down when I find out what wad I am going to use, and what the petal thickness is.
Regards
Jack

[longbow]

Sorry, I still have not located my 800 gr. slug load data. It wasn't something I was planning to do much of so I may not have saved it. What I can say is that unless someone like greg5278 or turbo posted the info I probably used heavy shot load data. I know it was Blue Dot and 12 ga. Fiocchi 2 3/4" hulls with Winchester 209 primers. What I do not remember is the charge and do not want to spout out "I think..."

If I find it I will post it.

Also, about casting large slugs ~ I am a ladle caster for everything but in all honesty, I think ladle casting for large cavities is better than using a bottom pour pot. A large ladle allows very fast filling of large cavities.

I have also taken to opening up the sprue plate hole a bit with a countersink as all my Lyman moulds anyway, from small .30 cal. to large 0.735" round ball all have the same size sprue hole and I have to think that a hole sized to suit small calibers is probably a wee bit small for large slug cavities. My opinion. I find I get much easier and faster casting with the ladle and larger sprue hole.

Longbow

[littlejack]

Thanks for your reply longbow.
I will use Blue Dot powder and a 3" hull. If I cannot find any load data for big slugs, I will use data listed for the appropriate and equal weight of shot. I need to find out what is available in a wad, to be able to fit everything in the hull and to the right height for a star crimp. I want to use 3" hulls because they will be shot in a 3" chamber. I read one of Ajays posts today that stated it was best to a 3" in a 3" chamber so the hull closes the gap to the throat transition to the grooves. Makes sense to me.
I also need to find out the thickness of the petals on the wad, so I will know what size to make the slug. Hopefully, BPI will be able to give me the information I need. If not, I am sure that Ajay will be able to help me.
I too cast with a ladle. I switched over from a bottom pour pot a few years ago. I get better boolits with less debris/inclusions in the dropped boolit.
Do you have any problem with the Win. 209 primers being loose in the Fiocchi hulls? I read today that Fiocchi hulls have a primer pocket that is .001 larger than American hull pockets.
Jack

[Greg5278]

I have tried the 730gr slug you mention. It was not worth the Time to mess with it. After loading slugs for 20 years,a nd trying lots of oddball stuff I have a few Opinions. Most of the stuff that you try and use with standard Molds just irritates you with poor results. I ended up using the
.690 730" Minie in a 16ga hull as a wrap to engage the Rifling in a concentric manner. I tried all kinds of wads, but that was 15 years ago. the current selection has more choices. I have found that using slugs in wads is better with thicker Tungsten or Steel shot wads and smaller slugs.
I use a CSD Wad and a slug that has paralell sides of .660-.668 "diameter.
As far as loading Data, Pm me and I can see what I have around. If I can't find data, I can give you some sort of starting load for a few powders.
Greg
AKA 12 Bore

[littlejack]

12 Bore:
Thanks for the input. Although you had dismal results, I must try. It is just an itch I have to scratch.
Did you try the load in a rifled barrel or a smooth bore? It seems, it "should" work, but there are a lot of things that should work, that don't.
The twist in my Hasting barrel is correct for the slug. I am sure that I can make a good fit for the wad and slug, because I will be able to size my slug to fit whatever hull/wad combination I use. I started on my push-through sizer yesterday. I cannot go any farther until I get my hulls and wads and do some siphering on the sizes.
Regards
Jack

[longbow]

I have doubts that the minie will work well out of smoothbore as is because I do not think it is nose heavy enough. You might get it to work by making a new core pin and moving the center of mass forward some which will drop the weight a bit as well. Alternately, you might have success by adding an attached wad Brenneke like.

Just a couple of thoughts.

Longbow

[littlejack]

longbow, I will be shooting them out of a Hastings rifled barrel.
Jack

[littlejack]

Hey fellas:
I'm ready to order some 3" hulls and wads from BPI.
I would like some input from others that have loaded heavy "saboted" slug loads in 3" hulls.
Are the Fiocchi hulls, the ones that are recommended? What are the best wads to use for heavy loads? These would be for 1 5/8 oz. equivalent weight.
One other thing. The Fiocchi hulls, have larger primer pockets accourding to BPI, and need the Fiocchi primer. Does anyone here use standard 209 primers in Fiocchi hulls?
Thank you all for myour help.
Regards
Jack

[littlejack]

I looked at the Federal hulls listing, and although they are more spendy, it may be better if I use them as opposed to Fiocchi. Then I can use standard 209 primers for sure.
As far as the wad goes, would it be better to use a wad with thick petals, or one with thin petals.
I use the WWAA12 white with the Lyman 525 grain sabot and they work good. The problem there is that the petals have a tapered thickness.
I will have to get my wads and hulls first, then turn my "push through sizer die" to size the slug to fit.
All input appreciated.
Jack

[Hogtamer]

Fed 3" hull and Longshot powder from Hodgon site.....it's a boomer

1 5/8 oz 1 5/8 oz 1 5/8 oz 1 5/8 oz 1 5/8 oz 1 5/8 oz
Longshot
Win. 209
WAA12
30.9 gr/ 9,500 PSI 32.0 gr / 10,600 PSI —

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Greetings, its better to deal with a known devil than a unknown devil ( I can vouch for Fiocchi hulls as being a bit soft and what I find good about is that they will show pressure signs, I like that from a safety point when developing new loads only.

The Federal hulls are great, the very Best, to switch over to when you have your loads all set for hunting as they will not show pressure sign's e a s i l y ! ! ! !
Use what I said to your advantage, my today's tests were half Fiocchi and half Federal and only the Fiocchi gives me a better idea about the pressure!!!

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here.
" One for all & All for one "

Best regards,
Ajay
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[littlejack]

Ajay, Are you using the primer, flattened or unflattened for your pressure reading?
Is there something else that I need to look at for my pressure readings?
I have some of the Helix Cushion Driver 18 wads coming from BPI, that Ed recommended. They should be here next week.
Jack

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello LittleJack, first of all I stick to the same hulls, and pretty soon you start to understand their behaviour:
http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t629/BlazingSabots/Pressure%20signs/Pressuresignscopy_zpsd5db70e8.jpg (http://s1317.photobucket.com/user/BlazingSabots/media/Pressure%20signs/Pressuresignscopy_zpsd5db70e8.jpg.html)
http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t629/BlazingSabots/Pressure%20signs/CCI209Mprimersignscopy_zps6d5dca2d.jpg (http://s1317.photobucket.com/user/BlazingSabots/media/Pressure%20signs/CCI209Mprimersignscopy_zps6d5dca2d.jpg.html)
http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t629/BlazingSabots/Pressure%20signs/Extractormarkscopy_zpsf809ba25.jpg (http://s1317.photobucket.com/user/BlazingSabots/media/Pressure%20signs/Extractormarkscopy_zpsf809ba25.jpg.html)
http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t629/BlazingSabots/Pressure%20signs/PrimercratermarksonFedExpandercopy_zpsa1789324.jpg (http://s1317.photobucket.com/user/BlazingSabots/media/Pressure%20signs/PrimercratermarksonFedExpandercopy_zpsa1789324.jpg .html)
http://i1317.photobucket.com/albums/t629/BlazingSabots/Pressure%20signs/Flattenedprimer_zps5d76bb93.jpg (http://s1317.photobucket.com/user/BlazingSabots/media/Pressure%20signs/Flattenedprimer_zps5d76bb93.jpg.html)
I only use new hull to do all my tests as I want to be able to read the pressure sign's for safety! !


Ajay
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[littlejack]

Ajay, thanks for the photos, they enable one to see right off the pressure signs. I did have some flattened primers, when working on loads with the Lyman 525 grain Sabot Slug, in the Remington Gun Club hull/case.
I wonder if the primer cup in the shotshell primers are softer than large pistol, or large rifle primers? With the maximum working pressure on the shotshell so low, it make one wonder why the primers flatten?
I have come by some brass REM-UMC hulls, and have looked at loading data for them. It states in one article to use large pistol primers with the black powder loads. The black powder charges in the shotshell, would probably produce equivalent pressures for the smokeless loaded hulls. I load black in my 45-70, and the working pressures are only about 13,000 or some higher. Not very high. I have never had a flattened primer with the black powder load. That would lead me to believe that the primer cups in the shotgun primers have to be softer.
Can you/anyone shed some light on this subject.
Jack

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello LittleJack, the industry had set up certain basic standards for the primer sheet to be able to with stand a certain pressure before it starts to give in or start to show ext. marks etc.

We have no one monitoring those standards, so most companies do not even bother to follow the rules, or don't even care! !

Fiocchi seems to have kept their standards and I like the fact they show pressure sign's for that's helpful to us shooter's.
I also keep hearing of a certain shotgun primer's piercing and blow-by gases hitting the shooter's face etc, if I'm not mistaken they were Cheddite hulls and primer's.
I'd stick with what works for me and will keep telling you all about my experiences!!

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here.
" One for all & All for one "


Ajay
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[littlejack]

Well fellas, I got to shoot some of these big brutes (69 cal musket conicals) today. My thanks to all of you for your postings and input.
Ed (Hubel458) thanks for the recommendation of the Helix Cushion Driver 18. These wads fit my 3" Remington Nitro cases perfectly. My sizer die came out .003 big, for what I was wanting (.675). It sized the .688 boolits down to .678 respectively.
I seated the .678 boolits in the wad, and there was a slight bulging of the wad. The combination fit very well into the case though, and no bulge. Finger pressure down onto the powder charge.
I used the 1 7/8 .oz load as a basis to start my loads. This give me somewhat of a cushion (safety
margin) with my starting loads. The slug actually equals the 1 5/8 .oz load.
The book calls for a charge of 37 grains of Blue Dot powder, So I started with 35 grains.
I did have to re-adjust my Mec to accept the 3" hulls but that wasn't too difficult, just took a little time.
I called up by brother and told him I was on my way to his place (country dweller).
He decided that he would shoot first. Besides, I told him I was a little reluctant to snuggle up to that
scope with those loads.
First shot was from the hip, looking away from the gun. Gun stayed intact, primer looks a little
flattened, no cratering, no ejector marks. He said recoil was acceptable. We were shooting at about 20
yards.
He filled a gallon milk jug with water, then shot it. It came apart, like a three dollar watch. Slug didn't
even slow down.
We shot into a solid split fir round about 16" across. The slugs shot through it so we backed it with the
other half. The slugs stopped about half way through the second half.
We removed three of the slugs in the fir, and there was very little deforming. They were shiny, and out
of round a little, but no mushrooms or flats. I thought the alloy was softer than that?????
The recoil was very acceptable for the big chunk of lead we were pushing. The wads stayed intact (no
petals lost).
According to my Lyman book, the maximum powder charge for the 1 5/8 .oz weight is 41.5 grains of
Blue Dot. I suspect that that load will leave a mark, ON ME. I'm sure I will stop before that.
I would like to get my sizer die at the .675 diameter. I may have to make another one. First, I want to
shoot for accuracy, and also Chrony some of these slugs.
My sizer die works perfect in my RC press, and it is no problem to push these big behemoth slugs
through and squeeze them down smaller. I do smear a little lanolin on prior.
The wads are pushing up into the hollow cavity of the slug, even with .130 of card wad. I may have to
fill the cavities with hot glue to stop the deformation of the inside bottom of the shot cup.
Still a work in progress.
Regards
Jack

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Hello Jack, good to hear about your new slug tests, I normally use a .170 darker nitro cards and they are much stiffer and if you happen to have some then do try them!

The Fiocchi hull do accept Fed 209 and Fed 209A magnum as well as CCI 209M primer's without any problems.
Who made that sizer die for .678 size and how much did you pay for it?
What is the sizer thread size, is it 1 1/4" made for RCBS press.

Thanks for the information.

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here.
" One for all & All for one "


Ajay
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[littlejack]

Ajay:
As for the card wads, I used three of my thin wads to come up to the proper height. The problem with them is that they are not stiff enough to do the job they are intended to do. I will have to get some thick card wad material. I also have to open up my wad punch. It punches out .640 diameter wads, I need them to be bigger to fit the OD of the big boolit.

As for the sizer die, I made it myself on my Grizzly lathe. After posting this afternoon, I went out and done a little heat shrinking. I did get the die to shrink to .677.
I made the die out of a 1 1/4" grade 8 bolt. It has fine threads, and fits the RC press with the 7/8x14 bushing removed.
I still need to hone my machining skills, A LOT.
Regards
Jack