Some doubts about perc. rifles (patch & ball)

[Argentino]

Hi guys,

I´ve recently bought a used In Line Traditions Buckhunter .50 cal in good shape. (I got it for 100$ which I thought it was just about right).


I tried .490" Hornady ball (sorry about this-no mold yet) and 60 grains Pyrodex FFg.

I cut some patches out of bulk Winchester cotton rags (I don´t know about the thickness) and lubed them with TC´s Bore Butter.

I fired 15 shots at 50 yards but couldn´t get any accuracy: all shots were placed within a 12" circle.

I recovered the patches and all of them were completely burnt and shattered at the center. I know this is not good but I don´t know what to do in order to correct this.

Should I try to make better and thicker patches? Should I move to .495" ball?

BTW, I drop a couple of .490" balls inside the barrel (no patch) and they went all the way through the bore (is this normal?). With a patch they fit just fine however the accuracy was nonexistent.


Thanks in advance for your help,
Regards.-

[pietro]

.

Most .50 cal's use a .490" round ball with an .015" thick patch, or a .010" patch if the thicker patch is too hard-loading - so it's a good idea to take a micrometer with you when buying patch material.

I use either striped ticking from an old bed pillow, or new ticking from a fabric store (either blue or red striped - one is thicker than the other) - after first laundering/washing/drying the new ticking to remove the sizing applied during manufacture.

You may need to use a felt wad under the patched ball or a couple of grains of Cream-of Wheat (cereal) over the powder, as that should prevent burn through on the patch.



.

[fouronesix]

Argentino,

Likely your bore is close to spec. One thing to do is to make sure it's cleaned well after each range session and it's not pitted. I'd think either .490 or .495 RBs with ticking patches will work .... or at least fit.

One spec you didn't mention is the twist rate. If it's a pretty fast twist and chances are it is being an inline, then you could be seeing normal first results using a patched roundball in a fast twist. You might be able to do some tweaking to get it to shoot better. A "normal" and reasonable expectation of accuracy for a roundball gun is something like 2" or less at 50 yards.

[Zymurgy50]

I would try some different Minnie's or even Maxi balls in that rifle. As fouronesix said, the in-lines are usually rifled at 1-20" for longer, heavier bullets.
Most "Traditional" round ball 50 cal rifles were rifled 1-60" or slower, "combination guns" were rifled at 1-48".
The depth of the rifling is usually shallower on the faster twist barrels also.
I think your patched round pall is skipping over the shallow rifling and you are essentially shooting a smoothbore

[Fly]

I think it is your patch.I use .015 pillow tic from fabrite store.Take a mic, or calipers
so you know thickness.Let sit in soapy water over night.Rinse in cold water, dry & use.

I have come to think (fit is more important than all the rest.I shoot prb, paper patch bullet
& greased bullets & mini's.In each case the fit must be right & then you try all the other
stuff.

I,m no exspert, just have shot these guns for many years.The above may be all I have
learned but it is true.The rest here know so much. & they will help.

Fly

[Sixgun Symphony]

I had a Traditions Pioneer rifle with some light rust in the bore. I used valve lapping compound purchased from an auto parts store and lapped the bore to get it out.

[HARRYMPOPE]

i shoot a .495 ball with .015 patch in my 1-32 Lyman with accuracy near 1" at 50 yards.The rifling is rather deep and i believe this is the reason it shoots well though the twist would seem too fast.A buddy who shot in Friendship the 1950's said many a fine .45 RB gun was made with Trapdoor barrels and they were 1-22

1-48 is common in many original guns BTW. i think all Hawkens known to be real had this rate of twist.

[mooman76]

You'll have to try different things until you find what works best. Different lube. I have used bore butter and it burns through patches for me also but I still got pretty good accuracy so it didn't bother me none. Different or thicker patch material. Another material might not burn through and stay together better. Try putting another patch or some kind of buffer or filler over the powder first to protect the patch from burning. A larger ball. I would probably try this last because of the expense of buying a whole different size ball that may not work or help anyway. Vary the powder charges. A heavier charge may improve accuracy. Last thing, did you swab between shots at all? When I use bore butter I have to swab every 3 shots or so or my accuracy drops off. For best accuracy you may need to swab after every shot.

[Sergeant Earthworm]

As if you haven't gotten enough advice, here is just a bit more.

Burned patches are often the result of excessively hot loads but that does not seem to be the case here. Based on your description it is possible your barrel is no good. With any used muzzleloader, the outside may be in good shape but that is no guarantee that the inside is in good shape. Some years ago I bought a used TC Hawken because it appeared to be in good shape but the inside of the barrel in the breach area turned out to be a disaster and it shot very poorly. The best way to know for sure the condition of the barrel is to have it bore scoped. A bad barrel could allow excessive hot gas to blow past the patch/ball which would be a possible cause of burned patches.

If you are sure the barrel is not the problem and you have the owners manual, that is the best place to start for load data. You should also be able to download the owners manual from the Traditions website ( http://www.traditionsfirearms.com/ ). I would suggest trying black powder instead of Pyrodex. Call me old fashioned but I always get best results with the real thing. In addition, your patched ball should fit snug when loading, as someone else suggested the patch may not be the proper thickness (but that seems unlikely to me).

If there is a muzzleloader club in your area you might find someone there who can help unravel the mystery.

Stay safe, happy shooting.

[OverMax]

Your rifle has a 1-32 twist. Your barrel Sir: Wasn't designed to shoot patched Rd ball on purpose with accuracy. Sabots and bullets your rifle was designed to shoot. They give the best performance. When buying a B/P rifle one has to pay attention to its barrel twist. As all rifle brands/models differ from each other. If you want to shoot patch ball. Consider a Traditional Hawken style. 1-72--1-60--1-48 twists are all good for Ball. Want to shoot sabots and power belt type bullets. Inlines are noted for that application with their 1-28--1-32 twist rates. When wanting a inline. Be prepared to pay more for its ammo through-out its lifetime. I'm a traditional rifle shooter. Knowing I take a deer a year usually. With patched ball. And open barrel sights. Like my forefathers did. Pleases me. But that's a choice we ll make at the time of our buying. (Inline verses traditional.)

O/M

[10 ga]

In reading your post it seems your info is complete. I think your problem is the patches. Guessing they are Winchester bulk patches for cleaning purposes. This cloth is way too light and fluffy, sorta like flannel, am I close? It also may not be of the proper material. You need a "hard" type cloth like pillow ticking, denim, twill, duck etc.... It should also be of 100% natural fiber, ie. cotton or linen being most favored. Man made fibers like nylon and rayon and orlon will burn through and give many problens if used for muzzleloader patches. The best patches I have used are the pillow ticking, as described it is blue or red striped. I also like linen and usually get it in second hand shops in the form of used clothing in womens pants or jackets. With the proper patch you will need a starter to start the patched ball in the muzzle. You may be able to start the patched ball with your fingers but that may mean the patch is too thin. If you end up with torn patches after shooting and they are not burned through then you have indications of a pitted bore. Hope your search for a patch source goes well.

Best, 10 ga

[OnHoPr]

Try pillow ticking .018, precision lube 2000, and keep the sprue on top. After starting the ball try to seat the ball on the powder with even firm pressure on each load. Not cleaning patches as 10 ga mentioned.

[carbine]

Try adjusting the powder charge down. Try 50. Gr as well as 45 and 55
Good luck

[Argentino]

Thanks a lot folks, I really appreciate all your help here. I´ll try to answer all your questions:

Twist rate is 1:32. Honestly I didn´t think about that twist being too fast for round ball and now you´ve mentioned it makes a lot of sense to me…

My patches were made out of bulk cotton Winchester rags-the ones intended to be used for cleaning. I just used what I had on hand. I´m aware that this is not a good material to make patches now. Will try to get some pillow ticking or cotton drill of the proper thickness…maybe Wally World would have them?

The bore is in nice condition: it looked pretty dirty inside when I bought it but after a dozen shots and a long cleaning using bronze brushes I´m able to see strong and almost shiny rifling.

I will insist a little bit in using the Hornady round ball I already bought-by improving the patches quality (thickness and strength). I hope to get to a point in which the accuracy wouldn´t be as terrible as it was. If I don´t success, I will melt the rest of those round balls and will use my new Combo Mold from Lee (ball + R.E.A.L.) in order to get some R.E.A.L. bullets out of it.

Thanks again for all your comments and help- I really wasn´t expecting all this information….this forum rocks!!! :guntootsmiley::CastBoolitsisbest:

[plainsman456]

I have shot my brothers in-line rifle with roundballs,but use 90 grains of bp.

It shoots as well as my Lyman does at 100 yards.
He uses sabots and minis when hunting deer but it was fun to shoot them.

[Argentino]

OK since we all love to see some pictures here are a couple:
First one, my target: the green circle was my aiming point at 50 yards. You can see the first shots around there then they started to went down and to the right (I didn´t clean between shots)
73587
Here is the patch material I used, the patches before (the yellowish color is due to the bore butter) and after (you can see them almost destroyed)
73585

And... this is what I got today at wallyworld ....I couldn´t measure the thickness but for less than a buck I´m gonna give it a try :-D
73586

[10 ga]

OH yeah! Real pillow ticking. Be sure to wash and dry thoroughly before using. Fast twist not so bad at all. My daughter shot a 35 twist inline for years with patched round ball over 50 gr of FF and won some shooting matches and killed some deer with it. It was very accurate at that load. Be sure to use a short starter on those RBs. With your mold the closer to pure lead the smaller, in diameter, but heavier in weight the bullet. the more you alloy the bullet will cast larger and be a bit lighter. Hard RBs are OK, I shoot straight COWW(clip on wheel weight) cast RB. A 50 cal hole is awesome for killin stuff, ya don't need them to mushroom but the soft ones will flatten out to .75 cal or better at close range when you hit a deer etc.... Update with the results with the ticking. Best, 10 ga

[725]

There's your problem. The patches you are using might be cleaning patches. The better, made for shooting patches, should not burn through with such a mild load. Somebody around here might have access to the formula used to pick "the ideal" amount of powder based on caliber and barrel length. I can't remember it's name. Greenhill - Davenport - or something. Anyway 50 to 80 grains of powder shouldn't tear up your patch. Once you start getting good patches recovered, I bet your accuracy improves dramatically. Good luck.

[Argentino]

OK, so I went to the range with my new "pillow ticking" patches but unfortunately my results were still no good: this time there was more resistance when I pushed the patch & ball down the bore (I guess this was a good thing due to the pillow ticking being thicker than my previous patches ) however I didn´t see any great improvement in accuracy.

Here´s the target (50 yards). 50 grains of Pyrodex FFg, .490 pure lead Round Ball, "Pilow ticking" patches 1.2" dia. (coated with Bore Butter). There were another 4 other shots that went somewhere between 2" to 3" to the right of the cardboard. :?

74252

I recovered several patches: they do not seem to be burnt however they are pretty damaged:

74253

Here´s another picture of them; I don´t see any signs of burning but all of them are almost completely ripped at the center:
74254

Any Ideas/Comments/Suggestions?

[fouronesix]

This thread and reported results, here in the ML section, look similar to one about trying to shoot minies in a fast twist bore.

When that patched RB is getting booted in the rear, it's probably skidding a ways as it starts down the bore. Probably the reason for the land cuts in the patch. And BTW, many times even in my roundball slower twist type MLs, that shoot very well, the recovered patches look a lot like that. The tears I see in the photo look more like land cuts than burn through- so probably your patch is working correctly. Your bore and that fast twist were designed for sabots or solid base conicals.

Two things to try for better accuracy. Reduce charge and clean between shots. Other than that--- may have to try sabot rounds or one of the solid base conicals for better accuracy.

[mooman76]

Looks to me like you have either a rough bore or it still has sharp lands from when it was new. 50gr is a fairly light charge even for RBs in a tight twist barrel. If you can look down your barrel, you can see if it is rough or not and also try running some patches down the bore and feel for rough spots. My guess is though that you still have sharp lands from when it was new. Allot of MLs have sharp lands when new and it takes a couple hundred shots to smooth them out. You could either shoot it a bunch and have fun doing it which will smooth the bore and lands down or you could lap it. Fire lap it by putting lapping compound on some patches or hand lap it with a good tight patch on a cleaning jag a couple hundred times up and down the barrel. Some people even use 0000 steel wool to smooth out the sharp edges.

[Junior1942]

If you'll send me a SASE I'll send you a dozen or so freebie 1/2"x1/8" pure felt wads. Put one un-lubed between PRB and powder. By the way those shot pillow ticking patches look un-lubed to me.

Junior Doughty; 190 Major Doughty Road; Tullos Louisiana 71479.

[Boerrancher]

I see a couple of things. First as Junior stated those patches look un lubed. What did you lube them with? Also don't worry about the cuts. Both my 50 cals do that and both are extremely accurate. Secondly I wonder if you are loading the rifle consistently the same way each and every time? How much pressure are you seating the ball with? If you are doing more than gently pushing it against the powder you probably have inconsistent seating pressure which will kill your accuracy.

Best wishes

Joe

[izzyjoe]

there is some good avice here, when i first started with ML's my friend taught me to pound the rod down on the ball three or four times, well now i know better. i've also found that Docker's type twill pants work good too as patching, and i cut mine at the muzzle after starting the ball. there's so much that goes into ML'ng, just learn the basics ,and the rest you can iron out latter on.