Hooked vs. pinned?

[Tatume]

Hello Folks,

For best accuracy, would you recommend a hooked breech or a pinned (and possibly glued) barrel?

Take care, Tom

[fouronesix]

Usually wedge(s) are used with a hooked breech. Usually pins are used with a tang/plug. Either way can be accurate. For the hooked breech type- it's important the (hooked in) fit between the breech and tang is even and snug.

Not sure about what you mean by "glued". I have a couple of MLs that have a tang/plug but use wedges.... for easier barrel removal and cleaning. No matter the design or system, correct inletting (fit) into the stock is important for best accuracy. The easiest way to get a perfect, zero stress fit between barrel/tang and stock is to glass bed.

[Tatume]

Some match shooters glue the barrel into the stock, in addition to pins or wedges. Most competitive bench rest guns are also glued, and they didn't invent the technique. Animal hide glue thickened with powdered sawdust has long been used for gluing and bedding barrels into target guns.

[fouronesix]

Yep, some center fire and rimfire bench rest shooters glue the barreled action into the stock. They have little concern about the necessity to remove the barreled action from the stock until the barrel is shot out. Then they "deal with" breaking the works loose. I suppose that approach could be taken with a ML, but the rifle would have to be capable of shooting well enough to justify the semi-permanent arrangement and some of the downsides to it from a muzzleloader perspective.

[johnson1942]

what ive done to my custom muzzleloaders is silver solder the tang to the breech. then i drill a hole just in front of the trigger guard up to where the tang and breech are joined. their i drill and tap a hole where they are joined. so now my barrel ***. is securely set into the stock by a screw. how i bed my barrel channel is layer gorrilla gun soaked paper towels in the channel bed then wrap the action and barrel in a thin layer of plastic wrap and set in stock with wood clamps. a day later i take out the barrel ***., trim off access glue finish the stock. i like hooked breeches done this way because it is secure and the barrel can move ever so slightly when heated up but no slop. my guns are very accurate but this is only a couple of the spokes in the wheel of accuracy. but a very important one. most guns can be a one shot wonder, it what happens after the first shot that makes or breaks a gun.

[fouronesix]

That sounds like a good system. The real buggers are the MLs with bands. Bands seem to always be problematic for allowing a good, consistent, solid, torque free bed. The hooked breech variety, while not the easiest, can usually be bedded to work well. For me, the solid barrel/plug/tang with one tang screw and 2 or 3 barrel pins seem to be the easiest design to bed correctly for best accuracy.

I'm sure a semi-permanent, glue-in technique would work the same way as a removable conventional glass bed. While I don't remove the barrel or barrel/tang each time I clean some muzzleloaders, I do it often enough I always provide a way to do it. I've used hide glue for different things but never for bedding a barrel or action. I'm sure it would provide a good bed but I'm not sure it would add nearly the strength to an average ML stock that is provided by a good quality, re-enforced epoxy compound.

[johnson1942]

i dont understand glueing a barrel into a stock? what happens when the barrel heats up and starts to slightly grow? with the way i do it the breech cant move but the barrel can slide foreward ever so slightly when heated. i also never take my barrels out of the stocks, even with my method their is no thing written in stone that the sights are perfectly set when you put it back in the stock.

[fouronesix]

The glue-in thing is from the OP's question about it's use in MLs. Benchrest shooters have been doing it for years in some form- barrel only, entire barreled action or just action. My theory is that if you start with a relatively massive, stable stock and glue-in a relatively massive and stiff barreled action then nothing will change over time. That's something the benchresters strive for.

My only thought is most muzzleloaders are different by design and different in a need for occasional disassembly for maintenance. I don't mess with original MLs and leave them as is and only shoot them carefully and clean them carefully. The repros and modern MLs I shoot or work on don't need such historical preservation so many of them are glass bedded for two reasons- 1) accuracy and 2) strength and durability.
I use the same "glass" bedding technique and materials for the MLs as I use for the high powers/centerfires. 2 part epoxy compound with re-enforcement matrix and a little coloring to match the wood. My release agent of choice is JPW.

[KCSO]

A hooked breech can be just as accurate as a pinned barrel if it is done right. I want the hook to fit tight with no back and forth play and just a little tension as the barrel is pulled down into the stock. I then fit the wedges for a uniform pull. I don't take the rifle apart unless I have to as each time you break it down you loosen it a little bit. When you talk about glue I assume you are talking glass bedding as you would never want to GLUE a barrel into the stock. With pins after you drill the holes remember to make the holes into little slots, as you need to allow for expansion as the wood swells and contracts. On a pinned barrel I prefer to leave just a little 1/32 or less gap at the rear of the tang inlet to allow for compression of the wood over time. The alternative here is to glass bed the tang, this keeps the tang from chipping out a little hunk of wood at the back. The breech should be a dead tight scraped fit so the reciol is absorbed by the inside of the stock and NOT the end of the tang.

[Tatume]

I've used hide glue for different things but never for bedding a barrel or action. I'm sure it would provide a good bed but I'm not sure it would add nearly the strength to an average ML stock that is provided by a good quality, re-enforced epoxy compound.

Hide glue is not the best, but it is required by the rules of some international competitions. One may use hide glue or nothing at all.

[Tatume]

i dont understand glueing a barrel into a stock? what happens when the barrel heats up and starts to slightly grow?

The tang is left free to float, so the barrel can "grow" at both ends.