Webley WG 455/476

[bearbud]

I am reloading for a Webley WG 455/476 revolver in the 8xxx serial number range. The revolver was made between 1896-1900, and do not bear any nitro proof marks. I would like to load it with smokeless but would like to stay within BP pressure limits. (BP is not an option at this point). I am aware that this gun was made towards the end of the transition from BP to smokeless but, I would like to consult the collective wisdom on this site if I am within the safety margins.
This is what I did:
Cases were made from 45LC shortened to 0.886” (Webley 455 Mk.I) and the rim was thinned to fit. The cases were sized and expanded with Lyman (45-70) M die. Primer: F150.
The bore slugged at 0.456” and the throats at 0.457”. Bullets were casted from 30:1 alloy in RCBS 45-255K. The bullets were bumped to 0.459” in a bump die that I made. The bullets were then sized and lubed (RCBS LAM @ 0.458” with 2500+ lube). I then sized again in a 0.457” in a Lee push die. At this point (due to the bumping) the bullet overall length was shortened to 0.630” and the crimp grove was almost gone. The COL was 1.323” as the bullet was seated to the top of the grease grove without any crimp.
4.0g Unique: 340fps clean and fairly consistent.
9.0g 2400: 330fps lots of powder residue.
10.0 2400: 440fps lots of powder residue.
For reference an original 455 Webley Mk.II that was shot in a second gun with identical bore and throats dimensions was 475fps. (VIZ K42 - This is WW II era Cupronickel Jacketed Round Nose loaded with nitrocellulose (Z) instead of cordite.)

I have no interest in hot loading this revolver and the Unique load of 330 fps is good enough for me for punching paper. I would really like to know if I am within BP pressure limits with these velocities?

[Outpost75]

In my shaved cylinder Webley Mk4 in .45 ACP I keep the loads light and have been casting the 265-gr. MiHEC
copy of the Mk2 service bullet of 1:30 tin/lead and using 3.5 grains of Bullseye for 600 fps. This shoots to the fixed sights with decent accuracy.

[texassako]

Some info I have says 5gr Unique with a 260gr at 610 fps is close to a duplicate of the factory load.

[PB234]

Only suggestion I have is to use a hollow base boolit. Perhaps Miha still has a mold for sale or buy some soft cast from Matts Bullets - sponsor of this site. I use a lead hollow base made for the 45 Colt. I recall it is made by Remington and sold by Buffalo Arms. Soft boolit, hollow base and gentle Unique load seem to be the goal for me.

A WG would be very nice to own and shoot.

[Tatume]

In the 300-400 fps range I would be worried about sticking a bullet in the bore. If it were me, I'd be trying for about 600 fps.

Take care, Tom

[BruceHMX]

Check this site while your at it.

http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/

I have a nice Webley (WG) that I shoot with the cast navy wadcutters. I load 4.6grs Unique in them. They are hollow base. Was told by some of the old timers to back it to 4gr to be very safe on the old gal.

Here's what they look like loaded.

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w58/BruceHMX/WebleyNavyReload.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/BruceHMX/media/WebleyNavyReload.jpg.html)

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w58/BruceHMX/Manstopper.jpg (http://s173.photobucket.com/user/BruceHMX/media/Manstopper.jpg.html)

I got them from Bill Benny...

He is in this thread with contact info.

http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?187829-Need-250gr-or-265gr-.455-quot-.456-quot-hollow-base-round-nose-bullets.............&highlight=manstopper

[bearbud]

Thank you all for the replys.
BruceHMX - These are beautiful boolits, I wish I have a mold like this.
What is the weight of these navy wadcutters? What 455 case do you use (Mk II/0.77" or Mk I/0.88")?
What velocity do you get with 4.6grns of Unique?

[Matt85]

i agree that velocities in the 300 fps range are too slow. i would try a little more unique and at least get the velocity over 500 fps.

-matt

[BruceHMX]

Not sure on the velocity. Other forums have posted that 5grs of Unique duplicate the factory loading. That's why I backed off a bit. Bill advertises them at 250gr. A poster on gunboards said his weighed in at 230gr. I use Fiocchi Mk II cases. Bill also makes the stardard 260gr round nose hollow base. Not sure what molds he is using but he is very friendly and would probably tell you if you mail him. Looking at what you got I would say 4grs is too slow. So I guess I'll stick with the 4.6. They are accurate and show no signs of stressing the revolver. I shoot them in my WG and a 1923 Enfield.

[jethunter]

I'm using 6.0 gr Unique in a .45 S&W Schofield case, with an as-cast Lyman 454190 255 gr. measuring 0.455". Quickload estimates pressure for this load at 11K psi.

My WG was made in 1897. It has not been modified and will accept .45 colt cases without thinning the rim or trimming the case. Most of the WG pistols made in that era will accept longer cases than the 455 Webley MKI cartridge.

[MtGun44]

I agree on the bore sticking issue. Pressures are so low that combustion
is probably quite poor.

Bill

[bearbud]

Thanks jethunter. Do you think that 11K psi is safe in this gun? My gun will accept a 45LC case (with a thin rim). I cut the cases to 455 MkI so it will be easier to segregate them from the 45LC and the 45S&W. In hindsight, I should have left them longer.
Thanks Tom and Bill. The 4.0grns of Unique gave consistent velocities and was as accurate as I can shoot. (Ave. 340fps, ES. 18, can't find the SD., ten shots at ten feet from the muzzle). I am not even sure that all the loads were identical, I didn't weigh each one. I loaded powder on a wood block dispensing powder with a calibrated RCBS little dandy and visually checked the powder level. I really don't have a feel for how slow is too slow, but it looks consistent enough for me to indicate a somewhat decent combustion (maybe?). How do I keep the pressure low (BP pressure) but have a good combustion?
Also, I read somewhere (can’t remember where) that in general, for the same velocity as BP (same case size and bullet weight), powders in the range of blue Dot and 2400 will give the approximately same pressure curve as the BP. Faster powders like Bullseye and Unique will give a higher and sharper pressure spike while slower powders like 3031 or RL7 will give a rounder pressure spike. It made sense to me, so that is why I tried the 9.0-10.0grns 2400 load. What do you think?

[jethunter]

Thanks jethunter. Do you think that 11K psi is safe in this gun? My gun will accept a 45LC case (with a thin rim). I cut the cases to 455 MkI so it will be easier to segregate them from the 45LC and the 45S&W. In hindsight, I should have left them longer.
Thanks Tom and Bill. The 4.0grns of Unique gave consistent velocities and was as accurate as I can shoot. (Ave. 340fps, ES. 18, can't find the SD., ten shots at ten feet from the muzzle). I am not even sure that all the loads were identical, I didn't weigh each one. I loaded powder on a wood block dispensing powder with a calibrated RCBS little dandy and visually checked the powder level. I really don't have a feel for how slow is too slow, but it looks consistent enough for me to indicate a somewhat decent combustion (maybe?). How do I keep the pressure low (BP pressure) but have a good combustion?
Also, I read somewhere (can’t remember where) that in general, for the same velocity as BP (same case size and bullet weight), powders in the range of blue Dot and 2400 will give the approximately same pressure curve as the BP. Faster powders like Bullseye and Unique will give a higher and sharper pressure spike while slower powders like 3031 or RL7 will give a rounder pressure spike. It made sense to me, so that is why I tried the 9.0-10.0grns 2400 load. What do you think?

476 Enfield is rated approximately the same pressure as 455 and 44 Russian, which is about 12-13K psi. Most of the original black powder pistol cartridges were made for this pressure range.

Use the longer case if you can - it actually increases your safety margins by a fair bit.

I've been shooting the Miha .457" HB webley bullet and the .455" 454190 both cast very soft about 30-1 or BHN 8-9. The 454190 is actually shooting noticeably better than the Hb bullet. Also a soft cast Miha 454640 RNHP is shooting almost as well as the 454190.

In 455 Webley MKII case i don't go over 4.2 gr Unique with 250 and heavier bullets.

One thing to be careful with if you use Unique in these old cartridges is that it will pressure spike if you don't leave some space between the top of the powder charge and the bottom of the bullet. When I'm trying a new bullet I charge the case, measure the space that's left and seat the bullet accordingly. Some bullets that need to be seated deeper won't work.

The first bullets I tried were cast from ww at about BHN 12-13 and they did not shoot nearly as well as the softer cast bullets.

Unique is a fair bit slower than Bullseye and it is my understanding it approximates the pressure curve of FFFG black powder, which is what these old cartridges would have been loaded with. I tried 2400 but didn't get much for results. If you can get it to work it would be a good powder. 2400 is closer to FFG black powder in burn speed and pressure curve.

I'd think that 3031 and RL7 are too slow for this cartridge but I can't say I've tried it.

[bearbud]

Thank You jethunter. This is the information I was looking for.

[Tom Herman]

I use Fiocchi Mk II cases.

Bruce, what size and type of primers are you using with the Fiocchi cases?
I ran into issues with mine. The ones I have use small pistol primers, and the loaded rounds seemed to have spotty ignition with Federal small pistol primers and 4.3 grains of unique with the RCBS 265 grain bullet.
The identical loading with the most excellent Hornady brass and the Federal large pistol primer had great ignition and power.
The factory Fiocchi loads also suffered from unburned powder flakes and low energy.
Just my observations and two cents worth...
I wouldn't go more than about 4.3 grains Unique. I settled on that load a long time ago, and it shoots to point of aim, as well as having good accuracy.
Also, with the semi-soft bullets that I use (50/50 wheel weights to lead, water dropped) and the dead ringer for SPG lube, I have zero leading.
Life is good...

-Tom

[BruceHMX]

Thanks Tom I am going to drop it back after reading this thread. I think the 4.6 might be great in my pre ww2 Enfield but too stiff in the WG. I have never had a problem with ignition or unburned powder. I often wondered why Fiocchi used small primers?

[Wayne Smith]

You said you don't know when going too slow. That's when the boolit doesn't come out the barrel! This sounds like a joke but it is serious.