PBS WW2 show

[nelsonted1]

I'm watching the pbs ww2 series on tv. They show a Marine on a ship heading for Guadalcanal cleaning a carbine as the narrator said they had old single shot rifles! Can you imagine such an asinine thing to say!

[pumpguy]

From PBS? I can imagine anything.

[Charley]

I expect they were talking about bolt action rifles, and refered to them as single shot. Ken Burns is a film maker, his grasp of general knowledge is poor to fair at best. He does seem to know what subjects to cover so PBS gives him boatloads of OUR money, though.

[nelsonted1]

Carlsons raiders were running around with Carbines, too! And they had a quick shot of the giant bunker on Tarawa with the two ladders thrown up on the side except it was a segment on Guadalcanal!

There were several segments shown as the beginning of Guadalcanal but the Marines were carrying Garands. Chesty Puller said in his book "Marine" said the Marines nearly revolted when they were told to trade in the their '03s for Garands- that happened a long ways into the campaign.

This could be a fun show to critique!

[felix]

I will have to take up for Ken Burns on this one. I caught those errors in the film also, but can you imagine thousands of clips that had to be filtered and "spliced" into this marathon movie? Could be a splicer problem, a labeling problem, or just plain "get-er-done" in the fighting sections of the movie. It appears the movie's emphasis is on the human elements, and so we should place our critiques more on this arena. One thing that was left out was the May 4, 1952 (I think) issue of US News and World Report that talked frankly about Pearl Harbor. They did do the Life magazine bit about Germany, but that was about Poland before our fighting. ... felix

[nelsonted1]

I didn't say the show was bad- I loved it. But they should have a technical staff, the kind that always has a colonel listed in the credits, that is on the ball.

I am probably critiquing the gargoyles on the Notre Dame Cathedral, nitpicking. But it is fun.

TED

[AZ-Stew]

If our children and grandchildren (or anyone else's) are watching these programs, it may be their only educational insight into WW II. If they're being misled, we have every right to complain to high heaven about it. Our tax dollars are paying for this crap. We deserve an honest dollar's worth. Seems that we're only getting about $.25 worth.

Regards,

Stew

[Buckshot]

..............The Marines landed on Guadalcanal and basicly won it using the M1903 Springfield. It was said they wanted no part of that Bucks Rogers piece of shi* Garand. However, after fighting in the jungle and beating off determined banzai attacks, when the US Army 164th NG regiment landed, they had to post guards to keep the Marines from stealing thier Garands while they slept.

One thing they did mention that is VERY rarely reported anywhere by anyone was that MacArthur had 9 hours of warning before the Japanese attacked and he did nothing. Usually it's said that "With a 9 hour warning, little was done", while never mentioning MacArthur. What actually happened was that when MacArthur found out, he secluded himself for 9 hours, and refused to see or talk to anyone. Even his inner circle of brown nosers were excluded.

................Buckshot

[Single Shot]

There are always tech errors in any production. Anything done by man is not flawless. Granpa used to talk about his single shot in WWI and how they were given to the troops again at the the start of WWII.

In fact when he started teaching me to hunt, his motto was," The single short was an effective war weapon because it forced you to learn to shoot instead of spraying an area. If it was good enough to help win two wars, there is no reason for multiple shots fired in a hurry at game. You owe the animal a quick clean kill.

Still is my motto passed on to my son today.

Ken Burns does rake in a lot of money from PBS. BUT the Federal Grants to the arts were cut back quit some time ago. That is why PBS has more than one fund drive each year.

PBS is now supported mainly by corporate donors, private foundations, and as they say, Viewers like you.

My son was surprised to see that the U-boats were sinking cargo ships so close to the coast because US cities would not turn off their lights.

His first comment when seeing this and other stuff mentioned above was," They never taught us this in school."

I hope the series opens a lot of liberal eyes as to the fact that war on the home front has been and can still be a possibility in the U.S.A.

[BruceB]

[QUOTE=Buckshot

"One thing they did mention that is VERY rarely reported anywhere by anyone was that MacArthur had 9 hours of warning before the Japanese attacked and he did nothing. "


Rick;

I have made a life-long study of WW II, now spanning about fifty years of intensive reading. Ths included most of the "scholarly" works and histories, along with many memoirs, unit diaries, and analyses of all sorts from all sides of the conflict.

I have never, repeat never, run across this claim that Douglas MacArthur knew of the Japanese attack before it occurred. Can you refer me to a source for this assertion? I'd be mighty interested to read about it.

Ken Burns in my opinion is well-proven as an anti-military and anti-US poseur who presents badly-distorted "history" which suits his personal biases.

[Char-Gar]

OK.. You WWII war in the Pacific mavens...riddle me this. About ten years ago I was visiting with a fellow I know quite well in New Mexico. He is retired Navy and saw service all the way through WWII. He was stationed at Pearl Harbor in 1941 and his ship was delivering some Marine fighter aircraft to Wake Island.

On the return two days out of Pearl the Captian gave the command to Battle Stations and All ahead flank back to Pearl. The crew ate and slept at their guns for the next two days. The arrived off Pearl while the attack was in progress. They stood off and employed their guns at the Jap planes going overhead to Pearl.

This old sailor was convinced there was advance notice of the attack, but didn't unerstand why they knew, but everbody at Pearl were caught with their pants down.

I know there is allot of controversy and speculation about what Roosevelt knew and when. But the above is a fact and I don't know if it is ever reflected in history.

As I said, I know this fellow very well and can attest to his memory, his mental abilities and his truth and honesty about such things.

[Charley]

The Japanese expected all hell to break lose after the Hawaiian operation. Read Saburo Sakai's account of the attacks on the Phillipines. Ground fog kept the Japanese air fleet grounded, they expected B-17s to attack the Okinawan airstrips at any time. They were very relieved when MacAurthor didn't authorize any offensive operations.

[Junior1942]

Probably 75% of the kids in America watch "Sesame Street" and it has zero ads for high sugar breakfast cereal. I can't think of a better use for public dollars than PBS.

[JCherry]

Charger,

My father may have been on that same ship, the aircraft carrier USS Enterprise, other carriers may have been part of that same detail.

He told me that on the morning of 120741 they got the "Battle Stations" call over the ships intercom followed by "this is not a drill". They did launch aircraft against the Japs that day.

He also mentioned that the Enterprise was close enough to Pearl that he saw smoke on the horizon that day.

On 091101 I was attending inservice training as a Federal LEO. I was jealous of my father in that at least he was able to take some action on 120741, I could do nothing on 091101.

Have Fun,

JCherry

[PatMarlin]

I wish we could get TV so I could see that. Anyone tape them?

I had the honor and pleasure of shooting with a WWII Iwo Jima marine at my mountian range in the woods a few weeks ago.

He had brought a mdl 700 in 22-50 and pulled it out, took one shot at 100 and it was a dead ring bullseye center to center, then put it back in the case and siad "Just Checkn'" ...LOL :mrgreen:

He loved my Mini-14 in .223 and tried to talk me out of it. I've got to get back home and try to spend more time with him.

[nelsonted1]

[QUOTE=Buckshot

"One thing they did mention that is VERY rarely reported anywhere by anyone was that MacArthur had 9 hours of warning before the Japanese attacked and he did nothing. "


Rick;

I have made a life-long study of WW II, now spanning about fifty years of intensive reading. Ths included most of the "scholarly" works and histories, along with many memoirs, unit diaries, and analyses of all sorts from all sides of the conflict.

I have never, repeat never, run across this claim that Douglas MacArthur knew of the Japanese attack before it occurred. Can you refer me to a source for this assertion? I'd be mighty interested to read about it.

Ken Burns in my opinion is well-proven as an anti-military and anti-US poseur who presents badly-distorted "history" which suits his personal biases.



I think he's referring to the time between the warnings from Pearl Harbor to thel beginning of the attack in the Philippians.

[rugerman1]

Bruce,I found this thru a quick google search.Why would MacArthur do this?THE SACRIFICE OF BATAAN (http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/6315/bataan.html)

[Char-Gar]

Mr Cherry... the old sailors ship was not a carrier although I can't remember the name. I wish I had written it down. He did say they when the engaged the Japs, standing off Pearl , they could see the smoke from Pearl.

[MT Gianni]

Chargar & JCherry, My father was a marine in Am Samoa when Pearl was bombed. He says the training ammo came out of new cans that day, though it was a week to 10 days before they learned what had happened. His opinion is that somebody knew. Gianni

[Phil]

I have read in more than one book that MacArthur stated he could not attack the Japanese first because the Philippines were not at war with Japan AT THAT TIME. Sounds like BS to me but I can search for the reference if necessary.

Cheers,

Phil

[alamogunr]

I wasn't born until 7 months after Pearl Harbor. I delivered newspapers throughout the Korean War and read the news of that war every day as I folded the papers. I am enjoying this documentary even with a few inaccuracies, which to me don't detract from the overall story. I can't help thinking that if something similar were to happen today, Hillary, Kerry and friends would surrender immediately and help make plans to set up schools for teaching Islam to conquered Christians. I hope everyone keeps that in mind for the next year or so.

[JCherry]

I believe the Navy knew something was likely to happen. Thats why the Enterprise was transporting aircraft to Wake.

I have a book named "Then There Was One" about the Enterprise during early WWII. A document it refers to was approved by Halsey and issued "At Sea" on 112841 the date the Enterprise departed Pearl for Wake it says in part;

"Battle Order Number One

1. The Enterprise is now operating under war conditions.
2. At any time, day or night, we must be ready for instant action.
3. Hostile submarines may be encountered."

It appears Halsey thought something would happen. I think they were not sure exactly what or where.

The Enterprise was supposed to be in Pearl 120641 but was delayed at Wake. If it had been on time I probably would not exist.

Have Fun

JCherry

[Buckshot]

[QUOTE=BruceB;226322][QUOTE=Buckshot

"One thing they did mention that is VERY rarely reported anywhere by anyone was that MacArthur had 9 hours of warning before the Japanese attacked and he did nothing. "


Rick;

I have made a life-long study of WW II, now spanning about fifty years of intensive reading. Ths included most of the "scholarly" works and histories, along with many memoirs, unit diaries, and analyses of all sorts from all sides of the conflict.

I have never, repeat never, run across this claim that Douglas MacArthur knew of the Japanese attack before it occurred. Can you refer me to a source for this assertion? I'd be mighty interested to read about it.

QUOTE]

Title; "The Eagle and the Rising Sun". The Japanese and American war 1941 - 1943.

Author: Alan Schom
ISBN: 0-393-04924-8

"..............At this time we [Still] did not know whether or not Japan had actually declared war on us". Afterward Roosevelt met with the concressional leaders who were waiting outside. The president announced that he would appear before congress at 12:30 PM on Monday, December 8th.

Earlier that afternoon, just before the 3 o'clock meeting in the White House, General Marshall had radioed message number 736 to General MacArthur in Manila:

Hostilities between Japan, and the United States, British Commonwealth and the Dutch have commensed. Japanese made air raid on Pearl Harbor this morning December 7th. Carry out tasks as assigned in Rainbow 5 as they pertain to Japan.

MacArthur received this message at 5:35 AM December 8th, Manila time. However there is info that other radios were made pertaining to the actual attack on Pearl Harbor previously.

Further on pgs 220 to 223 show that after 0900 local, when the Japanese began attacking, that General MacArthur was 'Unavailable'. Several attempted contacts by Admiral Hart, Gen Brereton, and several other high ranking officers were rebuffed by Sutherland.

MacArthur had previously made it clear that no action was to be taken without his direct order. (page 220) Yet he was not available, and all officers were turned away.

(Page 224)...............

" At the end of just the first day of the war in the Phillippines, the disappearance of Douglas MacArthur -- which has yet to be explained to this day -- and his refusal to meet with his air chief, lead to the destruction ................Etc, etc Actually refusal was made to quite a few officer desiring orders, and authorization for action.

A very instructive and interesting read. My personal feeling is that MacArthur didn't have a clue as to what he should do, and didn't want an audience to the fact. Very possibly he had a minor nervous breakdown.

A telex sent by Marshall well before Pearl Harbor (yet with all the intel at hand before and after, pre-dating the raid) stated,"We are (The United States?) highly desirous of Japan initiating hostilities first..........". It does go on to say that this is not to mean that commanders are not to be prepared, or not to take precautionary measures, etc.

........................Buckshot

[Bret4207]

My personal studies of WW2 and the period leading up to 12/7/41 show that the US was 100% certain war was coming. The weeks before Pearl Harbor were full of news of subs, air raids, spies, etc. The US was just waiting for the final straw, but hoping it wouldn't happen.

McA- A brilliant man, a super human ego, living in his own world that he alone created and ran. The man had a God complex. He made numerous mistakes, like anyone else. But the regard he is held in to this day baffles me.

Guadalcanal- You guys want to read up a real "hero"? Look up Adm Frank Fletchers actin at the 'canal when he left the Marines to fend for themselves with less than a weeks supplies. Criminal.

[Wayne Smith]

What exactly was the political relationship between the Phillippines and the US at the time? Two independent countries, country and colony? McA was the Commander of the Phillippines under US command or Phillippine political command? I know, no, I believe, he maintained his USA rank, but I'm not sure of his lines of authority. Were they confused?

[1Shirt]

Haven't seen the WWII Burns Series, however if it compairs to his Civil War series, I will be most critical of tech accuracy from the get go! As a young Marine in the late 50's, I can tell you that there were still quite a few of the old mud Marines who showed up on annual qualification day with Springfields. One old Gunny that I saw shoot 500yds offhand kept them pretty much in the black or close to it. Sure impressed me and a lot of Pvts and PFc's. Even those who were shooting Expert with Garands were reluctant to try it offhand at that range. Those that did never quite could match the old Gunny. It will make for good watching I am sure, and am also sure that for old soldiers like Beagle and me and the others who take great pride in the uniforms they wore, it will cause some consternation regarding accuracy. As for Dug out Doug McArthur, for those who haven't read it, suggest "American Cesar". I served with a couple of survivors of the Batan Death March who, if given the oppurnity would have liked to have made McArthur the hood ornament on a fast moving Buick.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Bret4207]

IIRC McA was basically in charge of the US Territory of the Phillippine Islands. I forget his title but it was something along the lines of Governor-General, something like that. He ran the Territory and this just added to his already impressive ego. I believe he also retained his Military rank throughout the P.I. tenure and was in charge of the US Military contingent and civil affairs throughout the islands.

[floodgate]

In conjunction with Manchester's "American Caesar", you have to read his "Goodbye Darkness", his "autobiography" covering the same period (in quotes, because he got in late in the Okinawa campaign, but wrote from interviews with other Marines who had "been there, done that" from the beginning in the Pacific in WW II). Then you'll understand his and other Marines' love/hate relationship to MacArthur. An arrogant SOB, but a fine strategist! My oldest grandson is Platoon Leader in the Jr. Corps in High School and loves it; we hope and pray that we'll have our goals and resources sorted out for Iraq by the time he gets there!

floodgate

[Scrounger]

General Officers never "retire" as lower ranks do, they serve at the C-in-C's wishes and go on inactive duty until (or if) their services are required again. MacArthur was on inactive duty and serving as Governor-General of the Philippines. His father had been the first Governor-General and Douglas had served there fresh out of West Point. The Philippines were scheduled to become a fully independent country in a very few years when the war started.

[USARO4]

The medias lack of knowledge is appalling, and the general public is even worse. I have watched local and network newscasts describe armored personnel carriers, self propelled artillery and tank retrievers as "army tanks". I would assume that they think if it has treads it has to be a tank, but once I heard them call a HMMV with a 50 BMG mounted on top a "army tank", so even wheeled vehicles are tanks. Of course their knowledge of guns is even worse. One of my favorites on our local news was when they showed a graphic of a revolver firing, there was a puff of smoke at the end of the barrel and then the entire cartridge, both brass case and bullet exited the bore.

[felix]

Who was the general/admiral/bigshot called "High Pockets". He was in the Pacific in charge of the assults on Guam and islands immediately north. ... felix

[tomf52]

Single Shot - Have your son get a copy of "Operation Drumbeat" by Micheal Gannon. It is an eye opener about U boat operations off our coast during the war. A little known incident is the shelling of a Naval Station in Massachusetts by a U boat in that time frame. I think the only artillery rounds to fall on our soil then.

[shooter93]

Pat....Tv can be on and off for me here...I only use an antenna....can't bring myself to pay for a dish and there is no cable. I ordered the dvd set...it might be awhile yet but you're more than welcome to borrow them. I also have the Civil War set which is fantastic too. Ken Burns isn't perfect...no documentary on this kind of scale ever will be...to many people involved ith production. We all here all kinds of stories from people who "know"...The truth is...we will never know the complete truth about MacArthur nor the guys on the grassy knoll. The shows are still great to watch so let me know if you're interested.

[alamogunr]

Who was the general/admiral/bigshot called "High Pockets". He was in the Pacific in charge of the assults on Guam and islands immediately north. ... felix

You wouldn't be thinking of the character in the book "Battle Cry" ? The only reference I could find was this:

http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-17472.html

[Scrounger]

The Navy's first Hydrofoil craft was named High pockets: http://www.foils.org/cno_1st.htm Here is mention of an Admiral Carney riding in it.

[Nelsdou44]

After watching 3 segments of Ken Burn's production I'd have to agree with Felix and Bruce B. A scholarly documentary it is definitely not.

I'm already tired of seeing the same film clips over and over. Notice how Ken uses the same film in motion, then a frame as a still , then again later as a blown up still, or as a frame flipped, or the frame rotated? If you have a photographic memory this kind of film will drive you nuts.

With that said, I believe the main thread is the human tragedy and what Burns is trying to evoke is the viewer's emotions associated with what went wrong as opposed to what went right. The war's timeline and film clips are just backdrops to those selected interviews and recollections he chooses to place front and center. I take Ken Burns as a story-teller who is clever at getting you interested in his story, and not necessarily the facts or the truth.

Nels

[Bret4207]

You wouldn't be thinking of the character in the book "Battle Cry" ? The only reference I could find was this:

http://www.leatherneck.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-17472.html


Thats what I was thinking too. High Pockets Harney. Fantastic book, most of Leon Uris books were excellant. I googled "High Pockets/Guam/WW2" got nothin'. Adm Nimitz was in charge of the overall operation.

[felix]

High Pockets has to be Carney. I remember from my dad that the name was an easy one, but you probably already know about the easy come, easy go syndrome. Anyway, Carney told his boss that no air support was needed for Siapan after it was offered by the boss. Apparently, Carney planned the invasion and wanted to show how good his Marines were on their own. How stupid, especially after the experience on the earlier island campaigns without air support. My dad was in the chemical corps during that battle, and did not actually go on the island until the troops had already moved inland. His job was merely to see if the Japs were using chemicals, a'la WW I, and if so, launch a counter part. They were not using gas. ... felix

[EMC45]

I was intensely intersested when the previews came on, but found the program kind of dull when I actually watched it. It seemed more of a socio-economic study then a documentary of WWII. Also Macarthur did sell the boys out in the P.I. I have the Bataan interviews of the survivors from History Channel and several of the survivors were instructed to surrender by Mac. Some of them said had they known they would have fought to the death! One guy stated he threw down his Garand and 8 en bloc clips of ammo. It made me want to cry!:confused:

[Wayne Smith]

I believe the Navy knew something was likely to happen. Thats why the Enterprise was transporting aircraft to Wake.

JCherry

Everybody involved knew something was going to happen. That was clear. When and where was not, thus the missons (plural, there was ongoing work) to strengthen Wake Island. Defenses were still under construction when the Japanese struck, and the Marines did a great job with what they had. In fact, this was not the first mission the Enterprise had to Wake Island before the war.

I've read a lot on McA and still can't say I understand his psychology. An exceptionally intelligent, competent, brave, and egotistical man. He probably was smarter than most of his peers, but had almost fatal flaws. By any measure had the fewest casualties than any other general in the war. Metal of Honor in WW1 - personal bravery. Administered two nations, the Phillippines and Japan. Failed to adequately maintain training and almost lost Korea, but he had lots of help with that - inadequate manpower and supplies due to national policy. Was willing to engage in nuculear war with both China and the USSR! Tatically brilliant, strategically questionable, yet functioned brilliantly on a national level. The Japan we know today is largely his creation. That probably went to his head?? His egoism was his undoing? It certainly didn't help.

[Bret4207]

High Pockets has to be Carney. I remember from my dad that the name was an easy one, but you probably already know about the easy come, easy go syndrome. Anyway, Carney told his boss that no air support was needed for Siapan after it was offered by the boss. Apparently, Carney planned the invasion and wanted to show how good his Marines were on their own. How stupid, especially after the experience on the earlier island campaigns without air support. My dad was in the chemical corps during that battle, and did not actually go on the island until the troops had already moved inland. His job was merely to see if the Japs were using chemicals, a'la WW I, and if so, launch a counter part. They were not using gas. ... felix


Saipan?! I thought you said Guam. Stand by.....

[Bret4207]

Can't find anything on a "Carney". Was he Army or USMC?

http://worldatwar.net/article/forager/

[Bret4207]

Here's the only reference toa Carney I can find. He was Halseys Cheif of Staff, not a Marine. Same guy?

http://www.nps.gov/archive/wapa/indepth/extContent/usmc/pcn-190-003143-00/sec1.htm

[leftiye]

Nelsdou44, I've been thinking about liberalism lately. Burns et al stress the human trajedy in their films. It wrings people's hearts (and this makes them money). The part that irks me is that they don't seem to understand that it wrings conservative hearts too. Liberals are striving for "a better" (perfect world), but just like the young person who is new to sex- they don't catch on that the older people knew about sex before them (so just how did the new generation come to be?) Conservatives strive for utopia too, and also want a better world, (just not a world run by liberal airheads). Next you get the semi-religious nose in the air labeling of conservatives as lacking for interest in doing what's right because they won't get on board and do what the liberals can clearly see is right. Funny that the liberals aren't religious, yet how much their politics resemble religion, and how intolerant they are of the opposing views. The sad thing is that one of the big differences (maybe the only one that might eventually matter) is that the liberals are so pacifistic that they will probably wait so long to stand up on their hind legs that it will be too late to stop those who want to take their freedoms, usurp their rights, destroy their country, and subjugate them (accept islam or die anybody?).

[felix]

Same guy, Bret. Carney was Navy, and was given the authority for Saipan's conquest. ... felix