45-70 load adjustment, help needed

[Matt85]

im shooting a 1888 springfield trapdoor rifle and ive been having some issues with elevation and leading.

my load is:
-bullet: 510 gr round nose buffaloarms 460500 cast from 20-1 alloy and sized to .459
-lube: SPG
-case: Remington 45-70
-powder: 70 grains of KIK 2F
-primer: CCI large rifle magnum

using the above loads im getting nice 1"-2" groups at 50 yards but its shooting about 9" high. at 100 yards im having a heck of a time as its shooting around 12.5" high and the group seems to open up quite a bit to around 6"+. i also noticed some leading going on at the breech end and with the leading accuracy began to drop off.

now I no longer have any CCI primers but I do have some Winchester magnum, Federal magnum, and Remington 9-1/2 primers to try out. I can also reduce my powder load or adjust my bullet seating depth. I have not yet taken a chamber cast for this gun cause I don't have any chamber casting alloy. I will order some with my next lead batch. I intend to try a number of different loads next weekend but im hoping you guys/girls might be able to point me in the right direction.

so any suggestions on what might improve my next shoot?

thanks
-Matt

[CanoeRoller]

I think the first thing would be to reduce my powder load, Rem brass has far less capacity than the original 45-70 brass. My Remington cases need about 3 or 4 grains less than my Winchester, and my Winchester brass still has less capacity than the original stuff. I would not be surprised if you find best accuracy down around 63 - 64 grains or so. Just make sure you do not have any gaps between powder, wad and load.

Which leads to the question, what sort of over powder wad are you using?

[oldracer]

When I started with my first 45-70 several years ago, Doug Knoell gave me this advice, which I followed pretty much exactly on getting started.
- Get some new cases and check the chamber fit and overall length. Size and trim as necessary.
- Find seating depth of the bullet you plan to use by filling a case with some florist foam, inserting a bullet and chambering the round to see where the land marks were on the bullet. Measure the overall length and take 2 to 3 thousands off to start with. Measure the bullet length and that will tell you how much powder compression to use.
- Pick a wad material, he suggested milk cartons so I bought a wad punch and have used that ever since.
- Pick a primer and stay with that one.
- Start at 60gn of powder and load 20 rounds, go up in 2gn increments and load the next 20 until you get to a full case (70gn). Do not change the compression depth during the load work up, do not try crimping the case, let the bullet be finger seated.
- Try to have matching conditions when testing which in many parts of the country can be difficult. Make sure to use a blow tube and always blow the same # breaths each shot. After shooting clean the cases the same way every time.
- Finally if you change anything, only change ONE thing at a time and retest. It took me 6 months to get the final load for my 45-70 guns!

[littlejack]

oldracer:
What is "the final load for your gun/guns?"
Jack

[oldracer]

After a bunch of testing I settled on 68gn of Goex FFG, milk carton wad with newspaper wad on them, Doug Knoell's lube and powder compression so that the bullet I use is 0.002 off the lands. The cases are fire formed, cleaned and expanded just enough so there is no blow by down the sides when firing. I do not anneal the cases and have used the same ones for over 3 years. Generally I have to seat the case with a case seating tool as they fit snug. I use the pointed 500gn Lee bullet and sized to 0.459 with 20 to 1 lead. I blow with 5 breaths all the time although in the summer in San Diego I watch for moisture in the clear piece of tube and drink plenty of water. I wipe with Ballistol every 5 shots. I am not competing as I am way to old although I do fairly well with our muzzle loader matches after swearing I would not compete with the BP guns. I hope this helps some

[Matt85]

im not using an over powder wad as I was told they weren't needed by almost every book ive read, I suppose it couldn't hurt to try though. I could try reducing the charge again but on my first try I used only 60grs of powder and they shot just as high (but didn't thump my shoulder like the 70 gr charge does).

ive been thinking that the leading could be fixed by seating the bullet a little further out. the shots going high could be caused by the bullets being sized at .459 instead of .458 like the original bullets were.

-matt

[Larry Gibson]

Suggest you read this thread and pay attention to the BP loading for the TD; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?190999-My-Trapdoor-Loads-Technique-and-Equipment

Larry Gibson

[Don McDowell]

If you can get any primer other than the magnums do so, they just aren't needed and with KIK powder seem to dry the fouling out and make it harder and will give you accuracy and leading problems without some pretty aggressive fouling control, especially in hot dry weather.
What are you doing for fouling control? At the very least you need to be using a blowtube.
Get yourself some .030 fiber wads, and use a blowtube, I suspect your leading will disappear or at least be greatly reduced, and your accuracy is likely to increase.
Also if you're crimping your loads , don't.

[CanoeRoller]

I would add a wad, you are almost definitely deforming the back of the round without a wad. Try loading 6 rounds at 62 grains, 6 at 64 and making each load 2 grains more than the last up to 68 ( you tried 70 grains already).

The first round is your fouler, so you should not concern yourself with where it hits the target, use a blow tube and be willing to slobber a bit into the tube between each shot. Give 3 or 4 heavy long breaths down the tube between the each round.

Once you have the first 6 identical loads down range, clean your barrel completely so that you will be starting from a fresh barrel, fire your fouler and try the next load.

If you slugged your barrel, and ordered the right mold, you ought to be good as far as that goes.

How are you applying your lube?

[Matt85]

ok I am using a blow tube and im applying the lube with a Lyman lube/sizer when I size them to .459. ive tried leaving them at .460 but all that did was cause more leading, at least with the .459 they don't seem to lead as bad.

Larry, I have been reading that thread. its been very informative.

ill have to try some .030 fiber wads. I did manage to wrangle up some federal large rifle and Remington large rifle (both non magnum) to try at the next range trip.

-matt

[freedom475]

I have been really working with the 45-70, Kik 2ff powder and the big lyman postell lately...I took me 10lbs of powder to get my load....

4 Major things I dicovered that make all the difference in the world.

All my testing is done at 300yards

1)..Soft alloy..20:1 or softer
2)..Large Pistol primers..this made a huge difference in my group quality!!
3)...Anneal your case necks!!! and don't water quench them...I closed groups from 6" to 3" with this one step
4)...Compression!!! KIK 2ffg likes .285-.300 compression after the drop tube (I know some say the drop tube is a waste of time, but it takes me no more time to pour through the tube funnel, so I use it). To obtain this much compression in a fired (unsized case) it takes 68grs in the Remington case and 70gr in the Winchester case

Yes you want an OP wad. I recoved a bullet that still had the gasket material wad stuck to its base so I also added a very thin wad cut from the protective backing strip of an adhesive strip to prevent the OP from sticking to the bullet.

The blow tube or some other fouling maintenance is very important.

My Pedersoli Sharps has very shallow rifling left and it is lightly pitted, but as long as I make sure not to stray from these basic rules it shoots all shots into 2" or less at 300yards off the bench.

I know lube is also important, and SPG is know to be one of the best.

But by keeping to these 4 basic rules...I just shot a bunch of postells that were lubed with LBT SoftBlue smokeless lube and shots #15-20 (with 4 breaths through the blowtube between shots) went into 1 3/4"tall x 2 1/4" wide at 300yards...so even after 20rounds the smokeless lube was still holding up..(it was cool out around 40-50degrees and 55% humidity)

Hope some of this helps.

[Matt85]

im going to be trying most of the advice offered here but i cant help but wonder if its going to change the bullet trajectory enough. i need it to shoot about 12" lower at 100 yards. its possible in the last 122 years someone monkeyed with the sights and they arent set correctly any more.

-matt

[CanoeRoller]

Assuming these are the original sites, you are right. There has been over a century for someone to monkey about with them. As this is a trap door, there is no simple way to "bore site."

Unless you can get your hands on a laser pointer that would fit in the breach, and let you close the action. Then you could look down the site and see if it would line up.

If you cannot close the action, but can get a pointer to beam down and out the muzzle, you could set the rifle up on a very solid rest, say, in your garage, mark the spot on the wall where the dot appears, then check to see where the sights line up relative to the dot. You would need to strap the rifle down to something very solid though.

[Don McDowell]

About the only change that could of been made on those sights without some serious machining ability, would of been to have filed the front sight down.
But you also need to keep in mind that the aiming point at that time in history was the opposing soldiers belt buckle, so with the sight down it will shoot high at 100. Those rifles weren't built for precision target shooting , the intended purpose was to kill or seriously wound the enemy.

[SharpsShooter]

Considering that this is a 1888 Springfield, I am surprised to find that a .460" does not work well. That bullet (unsized) should be spot on for your needs. As Don pointed out, those are battle sights and not generally intended for close target work.

A load that I have had good luck with previously owned trapdoor rifles was by some considered to be the carbine load of 55 grains of your favorite flavor powder, a .060" over powder wad and a large pistol primer to light it off.

Just my two cents worth…

SS

[Matt85]

sharpsshooter, I intend to try some 55 grain loads on my next range trip. id also like to try the 405gr HB bullet offered by Lee when ever I can actually find a mold in stock.

is shooting 12-16" high normal for these guns? I was under the impression people were able to actually hunt with these guns, a gun that shoots 16" high at 100 yards is useless for hunting.

-matt

[Mark Daiute]

If you use original sights and a boolit traveling at the same speeds as in the original ammo you will be about 12" high at 100 yards. Yup, absolutely normal.

[Randy C]

:coffeecom

[fouronesix]

is shooting 12-16" high normal for these guns? I was under the impression people were able to actually hunt with these guns, a gun that shoots 16" high at 100 yards is useless for hunting.

-matt

Yep, as others have posted, normal. Easy fix. Drive the front sight blade pin out. Get some brass or mild steel that is the same width. Fashion a replacement blade that is taller. Drill hole in proper place. Pin the new sight in. Shoot at 50 or 100 yards. File the front down to give the POI you want. I assume it has a Buffington sight? If so, flip the sight up with the slide all the way down. Use the peep for most precise sight picture and shooting.

[hiram]

See if you can chamber a cartridge with an unsized bullet. If it chambers, try it. You would have to pan lube.

[Matt85]

after some more load checking today ive pretty much set it at roughly 18" high at 100 yards. with 70 gr of 2F BP and a federal magnum primer the gun shoots a decent 2" group at 100 yards (just 18" high).

-matt

[CanoeRoller]

So do you want to replace the front site- design, develop and build a target that jumps 18 inches at the sound of a rifle, or live with the sights the way they are?

[Matt85]

i will be building up the front sight or more accurately ill have someone else build up my front sight.

-matt

[fouronesix]

i will be building up the front sight or more accurately ill have someone else build up my front sight.

-matt

I'm still not clear why you have to "build up" the front sight unless it has some sort of sweated-on whatever. Every issue 84 and 88 Trapdoor I've seen has a front base that is split with blade that is pinned in. Does it look like the pic I posted?? If it has the original front sight w/pinned blade, replacing that blade is pretty easy!

[Matt85]

fair enough, ill see if i can just make a new front sight. a gentleman on this forum volunteered to help me work on the front sight so ill ask him.

can any one give me some advice on how to get the front sight off? the pin is super tiny and i cant seem to find any tool suitable for getten that little bugger out. anything small enough is too weak it seems.

thanks
-matt

[fouronesix]

Use a small hardened punch with a flattened tip. Try to see which side of the sight would be best to start. Soak in Kroil after applying a little heat. Let it soak in and cool for a while. Place sight base on hardwood so all force is on pin and not on base. Use small hammer. The punch should hit the pin not the base.

Small diameter, worn out drill bit shanks make good punches. Or the end of a larger worn out drill bit shank can be "turned" down. Chuck the worn out bit in a drill. Using a rotary grinder bit or sanding drum to turn down the last 1/4" of the shank to the smaller diameter to fit the sight pin.

[Don McDowell]

A set of the Caldwell gunsmith punches from Midway is not terribly expensive , and a very good investment for anybody that does anything with their guns other than just sit and stare at them.

[fouronesix]

Matt85,

I have two Trapdoors an 84 and an 88. Both are as-issued rifles with Buffington sights. Whether you change out the front blade or someone else does it- matters not. With BP ballistics and 440 gr cast bullets both of mine require the top of the front blade to be .465" above the barrel for the POI to equal the POA at 50 yards- using the Buffington sight flipped up, the slide lowered all the way down and using the lower peep. I'd suggest that height to start with, then file down the front blade to sight in for zeroed elevation for whatever practical range you want- no change for 50 yards, file a little off for 100 yards, etc.

[SharpsShooter]

Consider this also, if your point of impact is 18 inches high at a hundred yards, I have any ask… Are you holding 6 o'clock or are you covering the bull? Those sites were regulated a for 6 o'clock hold. Look at this chart and you might notice that you 530 grain bullet is just over a foot high at 100 yards, or about center mass of the man if you were holding on his shining belt buckle and dead on at 200 yards.

Certainly you need to make it do what you want, I'm just pointing out why it is that way.

SS

74072

[fouronesix]

For bullseye shooting you'll have to determine your best hold/sight picture for precision. I like a 6 o'clock hold on a fairly small black bull. If it's a 3" bull then I only have to be 1.5" high in POI to hit 10 ring. If you are shooting who-knows-what shape, size metal plate at some distance set up for the games of the day or competition then you have to find the best settings and sight picture for your eye. I think the OP was also interested in hunting. That implies horizontal game animal body, not vertical where... aim at a shiny buckle or crotch of an enemy soldier standing on two legs to hit center of chest- or hold on the deer's front knee, pull to the rear a little and let 'er fly at most normal hunting ranges for the accuracy and ballistics of the round knowing it's shooting 12-18" high at those ranges. Winging shots away at big game at extended ranges with these guns (even though the battle sights were designed for that purpose for the battlefield) is wasteful of game and nonsense.

[country gent]

SInce you know how far off you are and the distance heres a quick formula to run and will tell you how much you need to add to the front sight.
All dimensions are in inches
Error X sight radious
_________________
Range in inches
So if you are 18" high at 100 yds it becomes

18x 28 (est of sight radious)=784
3600 3600 =.217 added
The 28" is an est from the top of my head Ive never really worked with a Trapdoor yet. But I have used this formula alot over the years with rifles and handguns with very good results.

[40-82 hiker]

using the above loads im getting nice 1"-2" groups at 50 yards but its shooting about 9" high. at 100 yards im having a heck of a time as its shooting around 12.5" high and the group seems to open up quite a bit to around 6"+. i also noticed some leading going on at the breech end and with the leading accuracy began to drop off.



I made a front sight out of German silver for my '84 TD, and it works great. Here is a trick I used: I made the sight initially very tall to be filed down after it was installed as all do, but I took advantage of this when drilling the hole for the pin. Since it is hard to place the hole, I just drilled the hole a tad high and then filed away the bottom of the site until the hole was perfectly placed. The sigh is rock solid with no back and forth play.

[Matt85]

what I decided to do was buy another front sight and have it built up. another front sight was only $25 + shipping and will give my friend a platform to build up.

-matt