Resize 45/70 or not

[ryan28]

I am in the process of working up a load for my 45/70 Shiloh. I am loading 510 grain grease groove creedmoor bullets. So far, I have started with 62 gr of Goex ffg, and worked up to 65 grains.
Quite a bit of leading, and poor accuracy, so my plan is to work my way up to 70 grains next.
Now that my brass is fireformed, would there be any benefit to not resizing the cases, and just slip fitting the bullets?
I believe I have read that some have had good results doing so.

[Texantothecore]

If you necksize the cases will last forever.

[littlejack]

Hey ryan:
Welcome to the CastBoolits.
To start off with, you need to use more powder. There have been a lot of the newer bp loaders/shooters start with low powder charges and have not had good results. The 45-70 cartridge was named so for that reason. 45 caliber, and 70 grains of bp.
I shoot 70 grains of Goex 2f, with the Lyman 457125 boolits sitting on top of a .050 card wad. I just neck size my cases.
With this load and receiver sights, I have one 5 shot 100 yard group that can be covered with a quarter.
You may not have to resize but if you chamber a round, then want to take it out, the boolit may stick in the throat of your rifle. Not Good.
Regards
Jack

[Gunlaker]

My Shiloh works well with slip fitted bullets. More powder is unlikely to help the leading issues. I'd get to the bottom of that first if I were you.

Chris.

[Rafsob]

One thing nice about BP is there is no bs about starting with low loads. You fill up the case and use card or waffer cookies and have fun. You don't have to worry about over pressurizing a BP cartridge!!!

[CanoeRoller]

The amount of BP you use will not have a significant effect on leading, I have used loads ranging from 63 to 67 grains in my Shilo Sharps and Remingtons (all are or were 45-70), and never had a leading problem. Your brass, seating depth, slug design, and card wad all determine how much powder you will need. Unlike smokeless, you don't get to load x number of grains of powder and move from there.

You need to determine your boolit seating depth, choose one card wad and stick with that, then begin to play with your powder charge. You are not seeking a specific grain load, but rather a specific amount of compression. When you get the compression right, your rifle will settle down to some mighty fine accuracy.

To avoid leading, make certain you have a good lube properly applied to your boolits.

Check that your boolit matches your bore diameter (slug the barrel), and measure your slug.

Keep your barrel relatively clean, either wipe or blow tube between shots, and do not try for a long string of rounds when working on a new load.

If you did not buy the Shiloh new, clean the barrel thoroughly, and make sure there is not a single speck lead nor copper in the barrel. Check to see that your barrel is in great shape, without any rough patches for lead to attach itself. Scrub the barrel with lead and copper solvent.

I will not fire jacketed rounds through my rifles, as I have a pet theory that molecules of copper left behind from jacketed rounds collect lead.

You may want to change your alloy, and also to change the seating depth of your boolits. The boolit will obderate when fired, and that will change its diameter, this can be an issue if you have an incorrect seating depth. Most newer Shilohs prefer the boolit to be just shy of the lands. In this case newer means about 20 years old or less.

Don't let the name of the cartridge mislead you. It was also called a 45-75 by Sharps, and had other names by other manufacturers, hence the more accurate name of 45 2 1/10. The boolit type and its seating depth are the first step determining your powder load.

You will not have access to original brass, primers, BP, and most likely will not have access to an authentic boolit mold, this means you will not be able to exactly duplicate the original military load. Modern brass does not have the capacity of the old stuff, so if you want to duplicate the original load, you will have a bit less powder in your round than they did back on the bad old days.

[joec]

I pretty much agree 100% with CanoeRoller but will add something I might of missed but if not stay away from Petroleum based cleaners and clean with soap and water, simply green or some other product like that. I use either balistol, simply green or a mix I use sometimes of rubbing alcohol, murphy soap and water. Also their are a few lubes best suited to black powder such as shown here http://www.buffaloarms.com/Bullet_Lubes_pr-3753.aspx.

[montana_charlie]

Leading:
Where in your rifle does it appear first?
What is the depth of your chamber.
After having been fired, what is the length of your case.
CM

[TXGunNut]

Welcome to the affliction!
To answer your original question I only resize my 45-70 brass enough to provide the neck tension needed to hold the boolit. My Sharps doesn't seem to need much if any neck tension, my levergun needs a little more. I don't think neck tension is causing your leading issues, tho.
What kind of lube are you using? Have you slugged the bore and measured the boolit diameter? Alloy could be an issue as well, can you tell us more about your boolit?

[littlejack]

Something else you will want do is seat your boolit out far enough to where the first driving band engages the rifling.
As ask prior, what is the lube you are using? What does your groove dimension measure.
I stated the powder charge of 70 grains, because there has been numerous newer shooters start with too low of a bp charge.
It IS (as I have read numerous times) that the go to starting loads for the 45-70 is 68 to 70 grains. This may be a coincidence, but I doubt it very seriously. I believe that the boolit gets "bumped up" better with a heavier charge of bp, and this what the cartridge was ORIGINALLY designed to shoot.
It works great for me.
Jack

[oldracer]

You did not mention how the load was put together, I.E. powder added, drop tube used or not, type of wad, is the wad lubed or not, if lubed is there a newspaper wad on top to prevent the wad from sticking too long to the base of the bullet, how much compression is used, how many breaths between shots with the blow tube, how many shots between wipes and how much on/off the lands is the nose of the bullet and so on? These all will affect the accuracy of your loads. I posted some things to do when working up a load in another post today and I got these from Doug Knoell, who was a pretty fair shooter until his cancer has got him down! He noted to me that there is a recommended order in how to figure things and how to test them making sure to only change ONE thing at a time and test 20 loads with each change.

[ryan28]

Ok, here are the load details:
62 gr 2f drop tubed, .030 vegie wad, about .225 compression
65 gr 2f drop tubed, .030 vegie wad about .3 compression
Barrel grooves measured at .458
Bullet diameter at .4588
DGL lube applied with a Meacham push through .459 sizer, little to no sizing happening.
Chamber length unknown
Bullet alloy is 25/1
Leading is at the muzzle for sure, I never thought to check early on where it started, next time.
I am wiping after each shot with one damp patch, two dry.
I did some more measuring, and the next batch I can seat the bullet out another .020 before it touches the lands.
Remington cases average 2.087 after firing. 2.095 after sizing
Rifle is new, no copper fired, lead only.
That should answer most of the questions, I think. Am I on the right track?

[country gent]

Here is my Load for my sharps. Win cases. Rem 9 1/2 primer ( aluminum foil disk between primer and case) . 70 grns of Goex 2 ff powder weighted and slowly dropped into case. .030 card wad ( cereal box). compressed to 3/8" from case mouth. 1/8 lube cookie. ,030 card wad, Baco .442 500 grn swaged bullet wrapped 2 wraps of onion paper. Finger seated into case friction tight. I do not size my cases unless they are chambering hard. I only neck size for bullet fit.
Lightly neck size your cases if neccesary for a friction fit on your bullet. Prime and powder. compress to depth with a wad. you may want to consider a grease cookie or lube wad as some bullets dont carry enough lube for a longer barrel. Hand seat the bullet to rest on the wad no air space is best.
Part of the leading issue is the bullets arnt completly slugging up to seal the bore when fired. Another cause for the leading is a new barrel. Until barrel breaks in ( miute tooling marks smooths naturally into directional )it may lead some. Some will break in a barrel to speed up this process.
WHen you wipe is the fouling staying soft all the way down or does it feel hard and crusty at some point? Are you getting a "lube star" at the muzzle. Cases "clean" when compressed corectly and everything is right fouling is soft and greasy feeling, cases have little loose fouling in them.

[oldracer]

The first thing I see is moving the bullet out so it is 0.003 or so off the lands as 0.020 sounds a bit high. You could also try having it touch the lands as some guns like that. From what Doug told me the bullet will be wiggling some and may or may not engage the lands straight. I would try this and see what happens as I bet accuracy will pick up with the 65gn load. Make the compression so the OAL is what you need to get the correct clearance.

[Don McDowell]

No you probably don't need to resize those cases. I only resize the cases for my Shiloh after about the 3rd or 4th reload.
Just seat the bullet to the driving band and you should be fine, and no more crimp than it takes to remove the flair from the case mouth.
With the fouling at the muzzle end of the barrel, either your lube isn't getting the job done, or your wiping routine needs some desperate rethinking. Two wets and one dry. Also what are you using for a wiping solution, what size of patches and how are you getting them thru the bore?

[ryan28]

Right, so my plan is to seat the bullets out to the driving band then. Hope that works better. I have been using water for wiping, with 2 1/4" patches pushed with a jag, not real tight.
I am getting a "lube star", and the fouling feels soft and even all the way down, no crusty stuff that I can recall.

[Don McDowell]

Might try 50-50 rv antifreeze and water for your wiping solution, or just skip the wiping and go with a blowtube. There's no telling how many good loads are smucked up because a wiping routine doesn't agree with what the rifle and the load wants. If you can get ahold of a nylon bore brush to replace the jag, it seems as tho for the wiping between shots that works better than a jag.
Also make darn sure you have that barrel completely free of leading before the next outing, as leading begets leading, just a bit of a chunk of lead left somewhere in that bore will tear a hunk out of every bullet that goes over it.

[ryan28]

Thanks for all the helpful advice, I'll get this rifle out later in the week and see how it goes.

[bigted]

here is my take on your Shiloh...

don't shoot any boolit that is smaller then .001 or .002 over the groove diameter of your barrel.

if there is no tight spots...[which is no wonder with a Shiloh barrel]...then your boolit is the suspected reason for leading and as Don suggests...make sure that your barrel is lead free completely...kinda thusly;

take gum spirit pure turpentine and soak a swab with it and wet the barrel copiously with it several times. now leave it alone for about 15 minutes for the terp to soak into the lead and get under it. now take a TIGHT patch on a jag and run it from the breech to the muzzle and out. repeat with new patch's three times with this procedure and check barrel again. unless your barrel has had copper run thru it then the sparkling bore should not lead.

as for sizing here is my take that seems to werk good for me. I take a fired case from this rifle and flair slightly...measure the mouth of the case and fill it with a boolit...[greeser]...that is just under under this diameter. [for instance...if the mouth measures .460 I will try a .460 boolit and if it will seat with my finger pressure then that is the diameter I shoot]. im bettin your Shiloh barrel is around .458 or just a bit over and the chamber is such that your fired case will accept a .459 or .4595 inch boolit. this is the size that is perfect for your rifle and then no need to ever size those cases.

paper patch is a total different process but with greesers this is what works for me.

[CanoeRoller]

I agree with bigted. Unless your are compressing a lot of powder, there is no reason to resize your cases after you have fired them. The vast majority of my accurate loads have a slip fit round on the case. My experience with Shilohs is that if you have an issue - of any sort - with a new rifle, it is not the rifle at fault.

This is much the same experience you have with your wife the first few years after you get married.

When there is a problem, you will be far ahead of the game if you just assume it is something you are doing wrong. Granted there will be a brief break in period, and that might be part of your leading problem, before you panic, scrub the barrel until it is spotless, and shoot again.

[Don McDowell]

One other thing that wasn't mentioned so far. When you compress the powder are you using a compression die of some sort, or are you just using the bullet? If just using the bullet you could be squishing the ogive a tad and or swelling the base of the bullet nose. That will give you a leading problem.
If you're sizing the cases and getting leading , after using a compression die, you may have to much neck tension. IE the sizing die is sizing the cases a wee bit tight for your bullet diameter and the leading problem is actually starting in the loaded case , as the lube grooves are getting partially covered by bullet alloy during the seating process. Same can happen if you're not getting enough flare on the case mouth to let the bullet start to seat easily.

[Two Rivers]

Years ago when I first started shooting a Sharps, an ole boy named Two Buffalo at the Quigley Match suggested I try a Steve Brooks 550gr Creedmoor mold. I had Steve make one with a .450 nose that fit the bore perfectly. Two Buffalo mentioned I should test ten rounds with neck tension and the same w/o.

As it turns out the un-sized cases shot a MOA consistently and that's how I've loaded them ever since. I do apply a very slight crimp in one of the grease grooves to keep the bullet on top of the powder and wad. But you could still pull it with your fingers with a little effort.

Good Luck

[ryan28]

I am compressing the powder with a compression die. I have noticed a ring on the bullet from the seating stem when loading sized cases. With un-sized cases, the bullet slips right in. I would have to squeeze the neck some to keep it from falling out.
I intend to modify the seating die stem to fit the bullets better, as I might be distorting the bullet a bit.
I used an un-sized charged case to determine seating depth before I loaded up the rest, to make sure I wasn't compressing the powder with the bullet, easy enough to do otherwise, I find. Hard to tell by feel if the bullet is on the wad.
And canoe roller, good one with the wife analogy, when things go wrong between us, she automatically assumes it's my fault, and I usually think before I reply, because she's almost always right!

[ryan28]

Well, I finally got a chance to try out my new loads. Four batches of five rounds each, starting at 66 grains, and up to 69. Cases were un sized. Bullets were tight enough to not fall out, but I squeezed them down a tiny bit with the sizer die anyway. Changed my wiping routine as well, two wets and one dry.
Leading was worse than before, right from the start. Accuracy was about the same with all powder charges I have tried so far, terrible.
Don't know what to try next, almost ready to give up on this mold and try my round nose mold.

[Don McDowell]

What are you using for lube, and why are you wiping between shots with a grease groove bullet?

[ryan28]

I am using DGL and I have never tried not wiping. Guess I figured it was necessary. I could rig up a blow tube easy enough.

[Hiwall55]

one of my Hiwalls with a green mountain barrel will lead and shoot big groups with a wiped bore , use a blow tube and it will settle right down and print small groups, Bill

[montana_charlie]

Leading was worse than before, right from the start.
Was the bore totally devoid of lead before you started ... and how do you know it was?
When it first appeared, where in the barrel was it?
CM

[ryan28]

I am not sure if the barrel was completely lead free. I did use a bore brush and tight patches until no lead flakes came out, but I was still seeing brown streaks, no matter how many patches I used.
After the last shooting session, the first patch had a lot of lead flakes all the way around, so I am guessing the chamber end leaded first, but I am not sure, as I could not actually see any lead just looking through with a light.
So after maybe 50 more patches and using the bore brush again, I am back to the brown streaks.
Might that be color from the brush?

[kokomokid]

I like to grind down a jag just enough so that 2 pillow tick patches soaked in turpentine are really tough to get through. If that doesn't get the lead out I go to abrasive , lead removal cloth or jb bore paste or flitz and give it a good workout in the leaded part of the bbl. Might try .060 wads and I am guessing that the bullet carries more than 1 grain of lube. We push damp patches but always start with bbl coated with bullet lube. LB

[montana_charlie]

I am guessing the chamber end leaded first, but I am not sure, as I could not actually see any lead just looking through with a light.
If your case is considerably shorter than the depth of your chamber, that can be a source of leading in the chamber, which can spread further up the bore.

The best cure (talking black powder loads and straight walled cases here) is to have brass that fits all the way to the front of the chamber.
If you cannot manage that for some reason, an alternative is to seat the bullet out far enough that a grease groove is partially or fully exposed right at the mouth of the case.

Pure gum spirits of turpentine (Home Depot) plus a jag and patch combination that needs a rubber mallet to drive it through the bore is one effective way to get all of the lead out of a barrel.
If you don't get it all out, it will never stop collecting more.

CM

[CanoeRoller]

Leading is a real pain. Once you have it, you have no choice but to scrub the barrel until you have all the lead removed. Lead will attract more lead. I would get some lead removing cloth, and scrub the thing until you have patches coming out looking as clean as they went in.

I prefer a mix of vinegar and Murphy's Oil Soap to scrub my barrels. It will clean out just about anything.

You have some work cut out for you each time you get some lead build up, and none of it is fun.

[Gunlaker]

Ryan if it's lead it ought to look grey. Leading can take on a few forms. Chunks, flakes, and a grey "wash" on the patch.

I wouldn't bother with messing with powder charge changes to get rid of leading. Maybe bullet temper, lube type, seating depth, fouling control technique. I get some very minor leading sometimes when using the Baco Money bullet. Do you have any other bullets to try? any nearby shooters with some bullets you can borrow?

I use Kroil on a tight patch to get rid of lead. That's a good alternative if you don't want to use turpentine.

Chris.

[ryan28]

I got all the lead out finally, and am going to try seating the bullet out farther, and blow tubing. If that doesn't work, I have another bullet mold. Has to be a simple solution to this, I hope. Sure are a lot of helpful folks here, it is appreciated.

[ryan28]

I tried loading the bullets out on the lands, and only blow tubed. Groups are nearly half the size compared to earlier, and when done, I pushed a few wet patches and didn't see any lead at all.
With a tight patch, I did get some leading, but nothing like before, so I am going to try a different alloy, and get a larger expander. Might work better with less neck tension.

[TXGunNut]

:drinks: Sounds like you're making great progress! Buffalo Arms Co has custom sizers, I think at least one of our members makes them as well.

[montana_charlie]

I am going to try a different alloy, and get a larger expander. Might work better with less neck tension.
Just thumb seat as-cast bullets into unsized necks.
Let the lube provide the 'suction' that keeps the bullet from falling out.

If that shoots well, then you will have a very good idea of what neck expander might be useful to you.
On the other hand, you may be content to just let your chamber do the expanding.

CM

[ryan28]

Just thumb seat as-cast bullets into unsized necks.
Let the lube provide the 'suction' that keeps the bullet from falling out.

If that shoots well, then you will have a very good idea of what neck expander might be useful to you.
On the other hand, you may be content to just let your chamber do the expanding.

CM
My bullets are .459 and my expander is .4565, so I am sizing them down too much with the cases, I think. I will try the as cast bullets in un sized cases next time out.

[MT Chambers]

If used for hunting, my concern would be when extracting an unfired round from the chamber, and the bullet gets lodged in the chamber/barrel, spilled powder may plug up the works. It happens a lot because of fouling in the barrel/chamber, and the bullet touching the rifling in a clean chamber. Compressed BP may not spill, but I don't take a chance, when I use rounds for hunting, they have case neck tension!!

[CanoeRoller]

It depends on what you are loading. Target rounds and hunting rounds have different priorities. Target loads have one single goal, accuracy. They will be babied, protected and kept from any harm until they fulfill their destiny of making one ragged hole in paper or hitting a bit of steel.

Hunting rounds have a different goal, to put down an animal as humanely as possible. They will be jostled, carried in pockets, dropped, and generally beaten up until they fulfill their destiny, of providing food that my son will refuse to eat because it might have touched the peas on his plate.

Hunting loads do not require the accuracy of target loads, and they need to be a lot tougher.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Not enough lube and your wipping method is the leading reason at the muzzle. With Grease groove bullets just a damp patch or two between shots is all thats needed wipping with Dry patches is your problem. With PP you need that but with GG bullets your removing all the lube from the barrel-hence the leading.

KW
The Lunger

[ryan28]

Not enough lube and your wipping method is the leading reason at the muzzle. With Grease groove bullets just a damp patch or two between shots is all thats needed wipping with Dry patches is your problem. With PP you need that but with GG bullets your removing all the lube from the barrel-hence the leading.

KW
The Lunger

Ok, might explain why I got less leading blow tubing last time, compared to my wiping routine earlier.

[CanoeRoller]

The thing to keep in mind is that BPCR shooting is a much more individual sport than smokeless. Do no let anyone tell you what to do - blow tube, wipe, or not - you have to let your rifle tell you what to do.

Sometimes you will find your rifle is like the looney on the Bus, yelling at someone who is not there. Other times it is the banker walking through downtown's business district, muttering quietly to someone who is not there.

To make the rifle shoot well, your job is to be there.

[Freightman]

Glad I read this thread, the Shiloh never leads, but have a old M1867 that
will lead the last 4" of a 34" barrel. This thread answered some questions for me thanks.