Powder Measure for black powder

[DCP]

I am going to load some 38 special with black powder after I get off drugs
I am on vicodin and muscle relaxer for my back.

I have read not to use
RCBS Uniflow
Lee Perfect Powder Measure

Because plastic can build up a static electric spark that can set of black powder

Then they tell you to use Lee dippers that are made of plastic

I am really confused now.

I also found this

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

Any help will be greatly appreciated

[Dan Cash]

I use Lyman 55 measures and a couple of old Herters rigs that work much like the RCBS measure. I like the Lyman better but they all work. The static thing would apply if you have a large volume of ultra fine BP dust but is not an issue with a reloader's powder measure. As far as static and dust, you can blow up a grain elevator with flour dust.

[Buzzard II]

I still use an old Belding and Mull powder measure for blackpowder and smokeless. Works for me! Blackpowder is sold in plastic containers now, so you be the judge.

[Bent Ramrod]

Static electricity builds up on the surface of nonconductive objects. In order to have a large static charge you have to have a large nonconductive surface. So even the largest Lee plastic scoop would not have the potential to gather enough of a static charge to cause a problem. A larger plastic item, like a powder measure, has more surface area, therefore can accumulate a larger static charge, and therefore, has a (statistically) greater chance of causing a problem.

I use a Lyman #5 as my black powder dispenser. It is cast iron (including the hopper) with a brass rotor. But I think the "static problem" with black powder is more liability lawyer dicta than actual hard scientific data. If it can build up in a plastic powder measure enough to endanger the operator, why are all these Mountain Men re-enactors still alive after carrying a pound of black powder through a week of Rondevous activities in a nonconductive powder horn?

[Nobade]

I agree. Black powder is very conductive, and static electricity won't set it off. I use the Lee dippers, a Redding measure, and a Belding & Mull. They all work fine. For 38 spl. just use the Lee 1.3cc scoop, it's perfect.

-Nobade

[littlejack]

That is an "old wives tale" I use my RCBS Uniflow with no problems.
Regards
Jack

[Matt85]

static will not set off BP.

static setting off BP is a myth and it has been proven wrong time and time again. feel free to use plastic with BP it will do no harm, heck most BP comes in plastic containers these days.

-matt

[25ring]

Use what you have,I've been using a Harrells measure for years.FWIW---Mike.

[country gent]

I to use an old bedding & mull powder measure for black powder. Not only because of the static/plastic issues but because it is very accurate with it. I would love to buy a harrels set up for black powder with the metal drum butnthey are 300 dollars +. Dippers can be made from fired cases and clothes hanger wire easy enough. Static can be controlled to an extent. wiping measure with a drier sheet, ground wires, staying off carpets ect ect. How far you need to go is the question.

[CanoeRoller]

I use an Ideal number 5, and an RCBS Uniflow powder measure. I replaced the plastic hopper on the Uniflow with a brass tube about 20 years ago. They are both quite accurate, and I have not gone boom yet.

[TXGunNut]

I like the Lee scoops, can be just as accurate as the measures and BP isn't that fussy anyway. For my 45 Colt loads I pour it slowly thru a plastic :shock: funnel to let it settle, similar to a drop tube.
And get off that Vicodin as soon as possible!

[Bent Ramrod]

Of course static electricity can set off black powder. It's just a question of how much. A lightning strike is static electricity and it will do for a lot less sensitive energetic compositions than black powder.

There was a situation where I used to work where they were changing our flame retardant cotton clothing over to Nomex, and then found that Nomex accumulates static like crazy. They went to a Nomex composition that had conductive fiber in it and found it accumulated more static than the treated cotton, but certainly less than the straight Nomex. The $64 question was then obvious: Was the conductivity of the modified Nomex sufficient that the difference between it and the treated cotton was not a concern?

We had people who presented papers on electrostatic initiation of energetic materials at international symposia and were up on the whole state of experimental and theoretical knowledge of what it takes to set stuff off and how the mechanism works. Nobody wanted to stick their necks out and say yea or nay.

It's the same situation with these powder measures. Nobody wants to make an "official" statement and then have the one-in-a-billion situation happen and make a liar out of them.

I worked thirty plus years in the business and am convinced that being able to set off unwanted initiations is a "psi" talent. Some people just have the "gift," (sic) and the engineering controls and safety procedures that work for the vast majority do not work for these individuals.

[Nobade]

Haha - of course you are correct there! A few thousand amps will certainly change the rules.

I was curious once and tried lighting some with a TIG torch. It didn't light. But let it heat up the plate the powder is sitting on, and it goes up instantly. At any rate I don't worry about it in powder measures.

I appreciate your observation about the "special" people, I have often seen that and wondered how it comes about. Kind of like why my boss can stick his hand into a bucket of machined parts and pull out the one bad one in there? And he does that fairly often. Somehow the odds don't seem to apply to him.

-Nobade

[John in PA]

I've used a B&M for many years. But a couple years ago I treated myself to the MVA measure, which is essentially major upgrade in precision, construction, and volume on the old B&M design. If you value quality, well-built tools that will last a lifetime, the MVA measure is an engineering work of art. Pricy, but you DEFINITELY get what you bargained for. (No financial interest in MVA, just an enthusiastic consumer) I got the medium size reservoir. Holds maybe 8 oz powder(?)
73170

[Two Rivers]

Like many I've used my RCBS w/o issue. Not long ago someone posted a video on one of the BPCR site showing how difficult it was to light off BP with static electricity.

[John Boy]

I have read not to use
RCBS Uniflow
Lee Perfect Powder Measure
Because plastic can build up a static electric spark that can set of black powder

First of all, nearly all black powder containers now are PLASTIC! And the Do Not Use Plastic Chargers are lawyers talking. The Lee Perfect Powder of mine loads all my BPCR reloads and the Dillon 550B with the plastic powder tube loads all my 45 Colts. The Dillon has made it through the years loading over 15,000 reloads, no explosions and I smoke my pipe while reloading. I reload over 1000 rounds annually with the Lee

[ColColt]

...and I smoke my pipe while reloading.

Glad to see another brother of the briar on the forum.:) Although, I don't smoke while reloading I do enjoy a bowl of Autumn Evening or Louisiana Red in the Petersen Professor afterwards.

[Gunlaker]

Not all plastics are equal. Plastic can be made to conduct electricity to some degree. I have no idea if any of these types are used in reloading equipment, but it is something to think about.

Chris.

[Ed in North Texas]

If you are concerned, copper or brass pipe is available to replace the Lyman 55 plastic reservoir. Then you only have cast iron and brass touching the powder.

[Springfield]

I load my BP cowboy loads on my regular Dillon 550 with the plastic hopper, and my BP shotgun loads on my stock Mec Jr. I also pour the BP into PLASTIC shotgun hulls. Not saying it is safe all the time for all people, but been doing it for 9 years and no problems yet.

[Littlewolf]

Operative word "yet" but it looks like I get a lee perfect to devote to BP loading 4570

[Kermit1945]

I use a very nice old Belding and Mull. They come up on EBay a lot, sometimes very reasonably. Just before stumbling on mine from a fellow club member, I was considering the MVA or the Buffalo Arms brass hopper on a Lyman.

Plastic and static won't set off black powder--until it does. Sure the lawyers are talking, but at the same time, no one here has offered to cover you financially if you are the one person who manages to create the ideal conditions for setting off about a half pound of FFFg a foot or so from your face. Anyone volunteering to cover him in the event he blows himself up? I didn't think so...

I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy, especially when firearms safety is concerned, and prefer to err on the side of caution. But you will do as you choose, I expect. The MVA is a lifetime investment in a fine tool and costs $189. Go try to buy insurance to cover you specifically for a gunpowder accident and see what kind of quote an agent will give you.

Just sayin'.........

[country gent]

I also used the Bedding and mull measure for Black powder charging. Not because Im super worried about static electricity, but because it throw the most accurate charges for me. Also keep in mind black powder is more corosive than smokeless. Another reason I like the Bedding and Mull is for a few dollars of hobby store brass tubing and of the shelf pars I can make measure tubes and leave them set for each load.

[bsnjsmith]

I know this is a little late to the forum but- I remember in the 80's Lyman or MTM or somebody recommended washing the parts in Joy dishwashing detergent and allow them to air dry, don't wipe dry. This was supposed to create an anti-static film. I don't know if it worked or not but it "probably did" after reading about the non issues with static above.

[Gellot Wilde]

I was using a Lyman, worked ok I guess then some kind soul on here said he used his RCBS electrionc and that's what I've been using ever since.

Still got my fingers and both eyebrows.

[13Echo]

I'm not worried about stafic setting off black powder in the granulated form. It just conducts electricity too well to heat up to ignition temperature with a minor static discharge. I might worry about extremely fine BP dust that is present in some lots of powder. Get a small cloud of very fine dust and put a spark through it and you might have a different result. It works for flour dust at mills and grain dust at storage silos. None-the-less I do use plastic scoops and plastic reservoirs on measures with black powder with no concerns. The basic rule is don't do anything stupid.

So far I've heard of far more accidents with primers than with any propellant including BP.

Jerry Liles

[Just Duke]

Graphite powder on powder measure's sure helps to take the static cling out of them when their new.

[Just Duke]

I load my BP cowboy loads on my regular Dillon 550 with the plastic hopper, and my BP shotgun loads on my stock Mec Jr. I also pour the BP into PLASTIC shotgun hulls. Not saying it is safe all the time for all people, but been doing it for 9 years and no problems yet.

That's good to know. I'll give it a shot.

[wills]

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

[Owen49]

I know this is a little late to the forum but- I remember in the 80's Lyman or MTM or somebody recommended washing the parts in Joy dishwashing detergent and allow them to air dry, don't wipe dry. This was supposed to create an anti-static film. I don't know if it worked or not but it "probably did" after reading about the non issues with static above.


I remember this.

[bigted]

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/sparks/sparks.html

awesome again ... seems to come up often huh? thanks for the link.

[Alferd Packer]

This was on CALGUNS website.

Reloading accident.
If you read thru till the 9th page He has pictures of his hand two years after the accident.
There is an ongoing discussion of static electricity with lots of opinions and some feedback from DILLON.

http://www.calguns.n....d.php?t=495909


Another accused SE accident.




http://www.tngunowne...ading-accident/

[Lead Fred]

Holy Black is measured via volume, not weight.

A graduated cylinder is what should be used (in grains not grams)

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Blackhorn-Powder-Charge-Tubes-Per/1096214.uts

[doc1876]

The Dillon has made it through the years loading over 15,000 reloads, no explosions and I smoke my pipe while reloading. I reload over 1000 rounds annually with the Lee

speaking of guys being on drugs, I watched my brother put about a silverdollar size pile in his hand, and then put a cigarette out in it, and nothing happened. He is still with us, but each day, I wonder if this is going to be the day.

[Chill Wills]

Holy Black is measured via volume, not weight.

A graduated cylinder is what should be used (in grains not grams)

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Blackhorn-Powder-Charge-Tubes-Per/1096214.uts

So...... what is wrong with weighing a charge for accuracy - repeatability?

[M-Tecs]

This was on CALGUNS website.

Reloading accident.
If you read thru till the 9th page He has pictures of his hand two years after the accident.
There is an ongoing discussion of static electricity with lots of opinions and some feedback from DILLON.

http://www.calguns.n....d.php?t=495909


Another accused SE accident.




http://www.tngunowne...ading-accident/

links are not working

[Alferd Packer]

Went to Calguns website
The California Govt shut it down.
During a Service School they demonstrated the power of Black Powder by pouring out a line about six feet long on the ground and lit it.
It just went PHOOM! all at once the whole six foot just like that.
It don't burn like smokeless powder fellows. It explodes because it is and always has been an explosive!
Black powder can be set off by heat, percussion, crushing-grinding-squeezing with enough pressure, or sparks.
Sparks you say! HA.
Have you ever seen a Flintlock pistol or rifle shoot?
What sets off the Black Powder charge anyway?
That's all I'm going to say on this except that the Service considers Black Powder too dangerous to use except in Artillery Pieces.
Just because you do a thing over and over and nothing happens, doesn't mean it won't ever happen.
I know a pipe fitter who shoots muzzle loaders.
He has half a hand on one arm because he has always loaded right from the Powder horn connected measure directly into the barrel because its faster and nuthin ever happened before for almost thirty years.
"Surprise Surprise Surprise"-Gomer Pyle
You'll never guess what happened!
BE safe NOT sorry.

[zuke]

I've used my LEE PPM with no problem's.

[Don McDowell]

Went to Calguns website
The California Govt shut it down.
During a Service School they demonstrated the power of Black Powder by pouring out a line about six feet long on the ground and lit it.
It just went PHOOM! all at once the whole six foot just like that.
It don't burn like smokeless powder fellows. It explodes because it is and always has been an explosive!
Black powder can be set off by heat, percussion, crushing-grinding-squeezing with enough pressure, or sparks.
Sparks you say! HA.
Have you ever seen a Flintlock pistol or rifle shoot?
What sets off the Black Powder charge anyway?
That's all I'm going to say on this except that the Service considers Black Powder too dangerous to use except in Artillery Pieces.
Just because you do a thing over and over and nothing happens, doesn't mean it won't ever happen.
I know a pipe fitter who shoots muzzle loaders.
He has half a hand on one arm because he has always loaded right from the Powder horn connected measure directly into the barrel because its faster and nuthin ever happened before for almost thirty years.
"Surprise Surprise Surprise"-Gomer Pyle
You'll never guess what happened!
BE safe NOT sorry.

Sparks from a flintlock are actually hot chunks of metal shaved off the frizzen.
Yes anybody that loads a muzzle loader directly from a powder horn is asking for trouble, unless they are using water to extinquish the embers left in the barrel of a muzzle loader.
Loose black powder just goes phisst,, compressed/confined black will explode.

Dang Hogdons and the Pyrodex confusion...... Blackpowder charges are always expressed in grains, or drams weight. Even in the 1800's shooters were admonished to weigh and measure their charges. Pyrodex and other subs are designed to be used on a Volume basis when thrown from a typical blackpowder measure set to throw a given charge in grains or drams.

[M-Tecs]

Lots of powder burnt https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg70MlYykDY

army footage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FeMXaLh49Y

Silly vid but it shows a pound trail burning https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNq6aWbK5eQ

particle size differences in burn rate https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcVlc2m4a1s

[bigted]

Sparks from a flintlock are actually hot chunks of metal shaved off the frizzen.
Yes anybody that loads a muzzle loader directly from a powder horn is asking for trouble, unless they are using water to extinquish the embers left in the barrel of a muzzle loader.
Loose black powder just goes phisst,, compressed/confined black will explode.

Dang Hogdons and the Pyrodex confusion...... Blackpowder charges are always expressed in grains, or drams weight. Even in the 1800's shooters were admonished to weigh and measure their charges. Pyrodex and other subs are designed to be used on a Volume basis when thrown from a typical blackpowder measure set to throw a given charge in grains or drams.


thanks Don for this bit. was about to post something along the same lines. what happens with a flintlock is nothing like what is suppose to happen with STATIC ELECTRICITY. without the amperage to drive the voltage in static electricity ... almost no useful happening will result from the static. now the shards of burning metal from the frizen is another story. these are ON FIRE and not just sparks but burning chunks of metal as Don suggested ... it is the why of having to replace the frizen from time to time on rifles/pistols that have been shot a few thousand times ... every strike removes some metal from it and after awhile these needs to be a replacement piece installed.

[M-Tecs]

I am not worried in the least about normal grades of black powder being set off by static electricity. I do have a concern about black powder dust and static electricity. Grains like wheat are not normally considered explosive. However wheat dust has leveled many of granaries. I wonder how super fine black powder and static electricity react together?

[bigted]

i am far from an expert in the area however i have read of others that have more savvy than myself and the experiments of such and find no place where STATIC electricity has ever been a problem ... now by STATIC ... i mean like that that develops on the outside of a balloon or the rubbing of something like a PVC pipe or that kinda material. this kind of static electricity has no poop ... in other words it has no power without some amperage to go with it. i have seen nice blue flame from telephone wires and i believe they carry like 10,000 volts or some such but with just a milliamp of amperage. the voltage is to carry sound but do no harm to anything it contacts.

those grain elevators and such that blow up have a real ignition source that belts the fine dust in the air to set it off. im bettin that if investigated ... the dust was set off with flame instead of a lil static spark ... someone will prolly tell me why im all wet and im all for it as i like to learn stuff as well.

i have set off wood dust when welding in an old sawmill high up in the air. it was a huge flash of light that nearly made this pilgrim lose his grip and take a 35 foot tumble down on the machinery ... however my knees refused to give up on their grip on the narrow beam upon which i sat ... er gripped ... didn't smell too good for awhile tho after and me drawers had a peculiar stain in the posterior section ... this was an open flame tho with plenty of amperage to make the voltage actually do something so i guess it were a bit different than that of which we speak of here.