Making molds for casting cores???

[customcutter]

I started cutting out some aluminum blocks today to make molds for cores. For the present I plan on making 2 molds. One for cores for .223 and one for cores for .45. The blocks for .223 are .5"X 1.25" X 5.5." +/-. I can probably set up to drop 8-10 cores. The blocks for the .45 cores are .5"X 1.4" X 6.5". Again I think I can set up to drop 8-10 cores.

I've never smelted lead before. At first I thought I would just make the cores as long as possible then cut them off to length, swage, seat, and point form. Then I read several post about how did everyone clean their cores, cores being stripped out of the brass, etc. Prospector Howard made a statement that sounded pretty good. Mold them to length and seat, no cleaning, no fuss, no extra steps. Sounds logical to me.

I'm not going to start sorting brass by mfg., this is already way to labor intensive. I'm looking for bullets that are at least minute of intruder, but not punching a single hole at 100 yds. What length core would throw a 45 gr core, I'm assuming 9-10 grains for the brass? I'm thinking 3/16" .1875, I've got a 3/16 drill bushing to swage cores if I can't get the mold to throw consisent weights. I may make the core swaging die just for practice later, after I finish the molds. What length/diameter for swaging cores in .40 brass for .45 +/- 200gr.

Just looking for input before I start drilling holes.

Thanks,
CC

[newcastter]

Just an FYI Prospector Howard is the only one ,correct me if I am wrong, not swaging his cores to weight, every bullet swaging manufacture in the buisness recommends this be done and I highly recommend swaging cores, so it would be a good idea to plan on making a squirt die. What I did for my first core mold is I had a Lee 2 cavity blank mold drilled with a 3/16 bit about an 1"-1-1/4" long and I would just cut them down before core swaging, but I have the capability of making all sorts of different weights with the same mold. I will say that I am waiting on a six cavity mould that I am going to drill as close as I can to the core need to the make the 55gr projectile I am going to swage so there is very little to bleed off to speed up the process. I am interested to hear others input on the different things being done.

[customcutter]

Newcaster,

I'll probably wind up making a squirt core swaging die. Just thought if I could get the dimensions close, it would help. I don't want to be 10 grains if I can get within 2. But like PH said, if they're withing .2 grain including different jackets, that might just be close enough, IF (big) it saves a lot of labor.

CC

[Prospector Howard]

I'm the only one? I guess I should feel "special". Maybe I should patent the idea, I'll be rich. I was under the impression that the main reason for the core swage die was for people using lead wire (because it's not all uniform size and it's hard to cut the length perfect each time), and one size fits all core molds. Oh well, call me crazy.
Just an FYI Prospector Howard is the only one ,correct me if I am wrong, not swaging his cores to weight, every bullet swaging manufacture in the buisness recommends this be done and I highly recommend swaging cores, so it would be a good idea to plan on making a squirt die. What I did for my first core mold is I had a Lee 2 cavity blank mold drilled with a 3/16 bit about an 1"-1-1/4" long and I would just cut them down before core swaging, but I have the capability of making all sorts of different weights with the same mold. I will say that I am waiting on a six cavity mould that I am going to drill as close as I can to the core need to the make the 55gr projectile I am going to swage so there is very little to bleed off to speed up the process. I am interested to hear others input on the different things being done.

[Prospector Howard]

CC, I think you'll find that you're going to need 3/4" thick stock, because you'll need that extra thickness to cut the grooves for the mold handles. Also, if you're going to make a mold to drop 8-10 cores; then a core swage die probably will be important. I made double cavity molds because it's much easier to tweak the cavities when I made them so they drop out more consistent weight and it's harder to keep the mold going consistent with that many cavities when your casting. I could be wrong though, I'm not there to see what you're doing.

[Lizard333]

Some of swage to make plinker rounds, on the cheap, and some of us, do a better job with our bullets than what you can by from the store. I do both. My plinkers are done with 22LR cases as half inch groups are acceptable. For my other needs, I need them to make one nice small ragged hole. Doing both of these requires the use of a core squirt die. +/- a tenth of grain or two wont cut it for my needs. Having spent better than 2K on just one calibre of dies, kinda gets me to make the best bullet I can make. I also sort all of my 22LR brass by manufacture and then by weight.

[customcutter]

CC, I think you'll find that you're going to need 3/4" thick stock, because you'll need that extra thickness to cut the grooves for the mold handles. Also, if you're going to make a mold to drop 8-10 cores; then a core swage die probably will be important. I made double cavity molds because it's much easier to tweak the cavities when I made them so they drop out more consistent weight and it's harder to keep the mold going consistent with that many cavities when your casting. I could be wrong though, I'm not there to see what you're doing.

PH, yes if I were using regular mold handles. I'm thinking something different, wooden handles on the front and a hinge on the back. Is casting 8-10 boolits in molds different from casting 2 boolits in a mold? I've never done any casting. Does heating and or cooling present a problem with one or the other? I'm not opposed to swaging cores, actually planning on making the dies and doing it, I may try to figure out how to do this commercially.

thanks,
CC

[customcutter]

My goal is to have materials that I can make bullets with when commercial parts are unavailable. If I were going to spend 2K on dies, I would cnc my lathe first and make copper bullets for all my calibers of weapons. Guaranteed repeatabiliity and no sorting of brass, swaging cores, cleaning cores, etc. I'm already 58 years old, I don't want to spend my golden years sorting brass for .223 rounds.:D I'd rather spend my time trying to figure out how to make the best dies I can so that others can make their bullets if they so desire.

thanks,
CC


Some of swage to make plinker rounds, on the cheap, and some of us, do a better job with our bullets than what you can by from the store. I do both. My plinkers are done with 22LR cases as half inch groups are acceptable. For my other needs, I need them to make one nice small ragged hole. Doing both of these requires the use of a core squirt die. +/- a tenth of grain or two wont cut it for my needs. Having spent better than 2K on just one calibre of dies, kinda gets me to make the best bullet I can make. I also sort all of my 22LR brass by manufacture and then by weight.

[Utah Shooter]

Some of swage to make plinker rounds, on the cheap, and some of us, do a better job with our bullets than what you can by from the store. I do both. My plinkers are done with 22LR cases as half inch groups are acceptable. For my other needs, I need them to make one nice small ragged hole. Doing both of these requires the use of a core squirt die. +/- a tenth of grain or two wont cut it for my needs. Having spent better than 2K on just one calibre of dies, kinda gets me to make the best bullet I can make. I also sort all of my 22LR brass by manufacture and then by weight.
There we go. :goodpost:

I think that there is starting to be a separation of sorts between making "plinkers" and making accurate match grade projectiles within the .22 cal family. Both of course need bullet making dies to accomplish this, but I feel different ways to produce "plinking" or match grade projectiles.

Newcaster, I do not think he is the only one doing it but I would not dream of dropping cores to go straight into match grade projectiles.

[customcutter]

There we go. :goodpost:

I think that there is starting to be a separation of sorts between making "plinkers" and making accurate match grade projectiles within the .22 cal family. Both of course need bullet making dies to accomplish this, but I feel different ways to produce "plinking" or match grade projectiles.

Newcaster, I do not think he is the only one doing it but I would not dream of dropping cores to go straight into match grade projectiles.

I think as components get harder to find you will see more people who are interested in doing "quantity vs quality". I'm only considering this because I do think there will come a time when components will not be available period, and I'm not interested in shooting unjacketed projectiles at this point. I also think that there is a "happy medium" where accuracy will have a trade off with the amount of effort involved in the end product.

BTW, I do make my own Turkey loads with tungsten shot. It cost between $60-$80 per lb. That's $10/rd just for the shot, but there isn't a commercial load available that will compare with it, and if there was you can't find it when you want/need it. Hence rolling my own.:D

thanks,
CC

[customcutter]

Anybody got an approx length for .1875 wire for 45 grains?

Or an approx length for <.40 wire for 200gr .45's?

I can always drill them a little deeper, or mill a little off the tops of the molds.

thanks,
CC

[Cane_man]

1 lb lead = 7000 grains

the mold is a cylinder with volume = 0.25 * 3.14 * D^2, where D = mold diameter

D = 0.1875

mold volume = depth x 0.25 X 3.14 X 0.1875^2 = d x 0.028

density = mass / volume

lead density ~ 0.41 lbs per cubic inch

45 grains converted to lbs = 45/7000 = 0.0064 lbs.

mold depth = (0.0064/0.41) / 0.028 = 0.56"


to figure out the depth of any cylindrical mold:

d = [(grains/7000)/0.41]/(0.785 X D^2)

D = mold diameter, inches
grains = desired weight of core, in grains
"/" means to divide, "^" means to square or in this case D X D


for 0.40 wire and a desired core weight of 200 grains, the mold depth would be:

d = ((200/7000)/0.41)/(0.785 X 0.4^2) ~ 0.55"

[customcutter]

Cane,

thanks for doing the math. I should have but haven't had the gumption to do anything for a couple of weeks now. Also probably can't keep my mind focused long enough. Hopefully I'll be better in a few days.

thanks,
CC

[alfloyd]

And I thought in High School that I would never need this math when I grew up. :)

Oh well, with Cane Man around maybe I don't. :)

Lafaun

[fredj338]

Well your cores will vary a bit depending on alloy & casting temp. The mold BT made is from a Lee 6cav, 11 cores at once, about 53gr. I could measure an as cast core for you but don't have any that are not final swaged yet. The cores will certainly be longer than 3/16".

I started cutting out some aluminum blocks today to make molds for cores. For the present I plan on making 2 molds. One for cores for .223 and one for cores for .45. The blocks for .223 are .5"X 1.25" X 5.5." +/-. I can probably set up to drop 8-10 cores. The blocks for the .45 cores are .5"X 1.4" X 6.5". Again I think I can set up to drop 8-10 cores.

I've never smelted lead before. At first I thought I would just make the cores as long as possible then cut them off to length, swage, seat, and point form. Then I read several post about how did everyone clean their cores, cores being stripped out of the brass, etc. Prospector Howard made a statement that sounded pretty good. Mold them to length and seat, no cleaning, no fuss, no extra steps. Sounds logical to me.

I'm not going to start sorting brass by mfg., this is already way to labor intensive. I'm looking for bullets that are at least minute of intruder, but not punching a single hole at 100 yds. What length core would throw a 45 gr core, I'm assuming 9-10 grains for the brass? I'm thinking 3/16" .1875, I've got a 3/16 drill bushing to swage cores if I can't get the mold to throw consisent weights. I may make the core swaging die just for practice later, after I finish the molds. What length/diameter for swaging cores in .40 brass for .45 +/- 200gr.

Just looking for input before I start drilling holes.

Thanks,
CC

[customcutter]

Fred,

thanks for the reply. In my question, I meant that the cores would be 3/16 diameter, either cast or swaged. I was trying to figure out how deep to drill the holes. Cane man did the math for me and figured .56 inches.

thanks,
CC

[fredj338]

When I get home, I'll measure a finished swaged core, 45gr +/-. Easiest/cheapest way to make cores IMO.

Fred,

thanks for the reply. In my question, I meant that the cores would be 3/16 diameter, either cast or swaged. I was trying to figure out how deep to drill the holes. Cane man did the math for me and figured .56 inches.

thanks,
CC

[customcutter]

Fred,

Does a 45 grain core fill a full length 22lr case? I would like to stay in the 55-60gr range. What ever it takes to fill the cases without trimming, and a slight exposed lead point.

thanks,
CC

[Cane_man]

what is the inside diameter of a 22LR case? we can figure it out, and what is the OD of your core?

[customcutter]

what is the inside diameter of a 22LR case? we can figure it out, and what is the OD of your core?

Cane, case is .201 X .72 (length is slightly domed), but that doesn't account for ogive??? Core will be 3/16, .1875.
Just thought it would be easier to ask folks what length core they were using.

thanks,
CC

[MUSTANG]

1 lb lead = 7000 grains

the mold is a cylinder with volume = 0.25 * 3.14 * D^2, where D = mold diameter

D = 0.1875

mold volume = depth x 0.25 X 3.14 X 0.1875^2 = d x 0.028

density = mass / volume

lead density ~ 0.41 lbs per cubic inch

45 grains converted to lbs = 45/7000 = 0.0064 lbs.

mold depth = (0.0064/0.41) / 0.028 = 0.56"


to figure out the depth of any cylindrical mold:

d = [(grains/7000)/0.41]/(0.785 X D^2)

D = mold diameter, inches
grains = desired weight of core, in grains
"/" means to divide, "^" means to square or in this case D X D


for 0.40 wire and a desired core weight of 200 grains, the mold depth would be:

d = ((200/7000)/0.41)/(0.785 X 0.4^2) ~ 0.55"


Or:

You might just use this table to get VERY CLOSE:

73213

I have attached a PDF with other diameters and weights. These tables were derived from the Corbin Web Site. I keep them as a PDF so I can print and refer to a hard copy at the loading bench. :coffeecom

73214

Mustang

[customcutter]

Mustang,

thanks, I will definitely be printing that off in the AM.

CC

[customcutter]

I felt a little better today, went out and gave a couple of quotes. While I was out I stopped by the scrap yard. I picked up 50lbs. of roofing lead for $35. Out of 15-20 pieces all were clean except one that had a little bit of tar on it. While I was there I went through some old motors, and pulled 4 start capacitors for $5. Hopefully one of them will get my RPC running again. Also stopped by Lowes to pick up a few small hinges, screws to put the molds together with. Now I definitely gotta get back out into the shop and get started on these molds and dies.

CC

[Cane_man]

i am thinking about taking one of those Lyman round ball molds that sell pretty cheap on evilbay, and drilling out 2 or 3 holes for 3/16" cores on the bottom of the mold and putting the sprue plate there as well... may have to drill holes in the sprue plate as well

[customcutter]

Yes, that's what someone suggested I do, but I want to see what I can do, with a couple scrap peices of Al, and an old mower blade. I'll take some pics. Now I gotta go get those capacitors and see if I can get my surface grinder running. If so, I need to grind a D reamer.:grin:

CC

[customcutter]

Got out in the garage finally. Managed to square up the Al pieces on the mill, and get the core holes drilled. I also drilled tapped and mounted the hinges, (worried about how they are going to hold up if much force is applied cutting the cores with the sprue plate). Made a couple of handles out of some cedar, I had laying around the shop. I'm pretty sure I'll have to replace them with some type of hardwood. Got one of the old mower blades and cut out a couple of sprue plates. I still have to drill them, and get them mounted. I'm thinking 1/4" or 3/8" carbide ball mill, and just cut through till I have an 1/8" hole in the sprue plate to flow lead into the mold. Anyone know the size of the hole in their mold sprue plates? (Don't know when I'll get back in the shop, lots of customer complaints about quality of work by the crew. So I'll be back in the truck next week, making sure the work gets done properly.) So here's the pics.

[customcutter]

Here's pics of the sprue plates. As I said no holes or channels yet. As you can see there is still plenty of room on the bottom of the molds to drill more core holes. Any thoughts on installing opposite size cores on the bottoms. That way I would have two molds to work with. Or maybe I'll just stick with the 2. Make half in .1875, and the other half in .375. Not worry about molding all of one size in one session. I'll have to think on that some more.

Edit: I also need to add a ball bearing or pin to the front of the molds to align the two halves when closed.

[Cane_man]

looking good CC... are you going to ladle cast these or did you get a bottom pour?

[customcutter]

Cane,

I'm doing my research now. I just watched my first video on casting boolits. The guy was using a 2 boolit mold and beating the heck out of the handle and sprue cutter to release his boolits. I'm going to have to rethink the hinge, and handles I'm pretty sure after watching that. The wife did bring me home a "dutch oven" from HF. I'll use it to smelt my roofing lead. Don't know if after the lead is smelted into ignots, can I reuse the "dutch oven" to remelt the clean ingnots in and ladle from there. Eventually I will probably get a 20lb Lee furnace. Just trying to get by for now without too much cash outlay.

[supe47]

Cut the solder joint off your roof lead to keep your lead soft. Tin in the solder will harden your lead. Save the solder joint for a tin source. Reuse the dutch oven, flux often. #WARNING# Casting can be addictive.
Supe

[customcutter]

Cut the solder joint off your roof lead to keep your lead soft. Tin in the solder will harden your lead. Save the solder joint for a tin source. Reuse the dutch oven, flux often. #WARNING# Casting can be addictive.
Supe

Thanks for the tip on the solder joint. It's too late for the WARNING. I just got over a sinus infection that turned into bronchitis, but I'm afraid I won't get over this swaging/casting bug.:grin:

[Cane_man]

i experimented tonight... made a 0.198 sizing insert to size 0.225 55 grain cast boolits... i trimmed the gas check end off so that it weighed 45 grains, then ran it through the sizer and it worked perfect! it was really easy to size these trimmed boolits down by 0.027" and they drop right in to the derimmed cases... i will put up a pic tomorrow, but i am setting aside the idea of making a core mold for now, and i am going with trimming then sizing these 0.225 55grain cast boolits... i have a NOE 225-55 three holer, and i can drop out 100 bullets in probably 20 minutes...

[customcutter]

Cane,

How consistent are your weights? Are they good enough that you aren't going to swage them for length? Or do you plan on putting a squirt hole in your insert and through the side of the die? Also wondering if the 45grains will be enough for the point forming, without trimming case length? I think it should be. The wife was at WM today and picked up a SS ladle, I'm guessing about 4-6oz of water capacity. I'll have to add a wooden grip to the handle to combat the heat transfer I'm sure. Gotta find me some muffin tins now. Will Al work, or do they have to be steel? I've seen the cast iron corn bread molds at the flea markets are they reasonable? Still wondering if I can smelt and cast in the same session or is it worth it to do two seperate events?

CC

[Cane_man]

got it done this afternoon and tested it out, this is what i got from left to right: the NOE 225-55 cast boolit, the trimmed boolit at 45 grains using the trimmer you see on the far right and the trimmings you see at the back, the sized core at 0.199, the core sitting half way inside the derimmed case, and the core fully inside the case ready for core seating/swaging, looks like a lot but all of this goes really fast:
http://i913.photobucket.com/albums/ac331/johnelway/224-core_zps5fb843ab.jpg
i was really happy that the cores were all within 0.5 grains of one another and since i am not going for 1/4 MOA at 1000 meters i am satisfied with that and ready to move on to make the core seating die... hopefully the core is big enough for point forming, just gotta keep plugging away at it and find out, if i screw it up oh darn just gotta make more stuff :)



The wife was at WM today and picked up a SS ladle, I'm guessing about 4-6oz of water capacity. I'll have to add a wooden grip to the handle to combat the heat transfer I'm sure. Gotta find me some muffin tins now. Will Al work, or do they have to be steel? I've seen the cast iron corn bread molds at the flea markets are they reasonable? Still wondering if I can smelt and cast in the same session or is it worth it to do two seperate events?

the ladle should work fine and you are wise to put the wooden handle on it, and get some leather gloves as well... i think 3 fluid ounces of molten lead is 1lb so your ladle should be big enough... you will also want a stainless steel spoon to skim off the dross and a metal can to dump it in, a pine paint stirring stick to mix up the flux, and some pine shavings for flux... if you can find the cast iron corn bread pans that look like this:

http://img2.etsystatic.com/012/0/5930621/il_fullxfull.428641126_b8l4.jpg

they have a handle and each wedge is about 2-3 pounds and the ingots stack/store nice and fit inside a Lee 4-20, and this pan isn't too expensive ~ $12, whatever you do try to get cast iron or metal makes life easier... not sure about Al, and i would avoid the muffin pans although may use them and like them... i have seen some really nice looking home made ingot molds made from angle iron with flat bar welded on the ends, i am sure you can make something if you wanted to... i would not smelt and cast at the same time, i would just smelt the lead and get it all cleaned up and sized in smaller ingots, then cast later as you will have your hands full on your first time out ladle casting, imo...

[customcutter]

I like that cornbread pan. Any idea who has one for $12? Glad your weights are within .5grain. That's what I'm hoping for with my mold.

CC

[Cane_man]

i got mine at the grocery store here called Winco... if you want i can pick one up for you and send you one... i have seen these on evilbay and amazon and i believe walmart has them as well

[customcutter]

Thanks, but I'll try to find one locally. Freight would be more than the skillet.:grin:

[mrjohn]

I got the derimmer set up ready. now for the cores.
got to go pick up my lathe don't even know what is its make but my uncle give it to me.

[customcutter]

mrjohn,

Hopefully your uncle can give you pointers on how to operate it also. Let us know what you got. How did you make your derimming die?

[customcutter]

Hit the flea market last weekend. Picked up a cast iron muffin pan. Also two thin steel muffin pans, passed on the teflon coated ones. Also picked up some cheap spoons, ladels, etc.

Just got off the MidwayUSA site. Ordered the Lee Pro 4-20 pot, set of Lee 6 cavity mold handles to adapt to my molds (I hope), and some other misc reloading stuff. Going to try and heat treat the D-reamers tomorrow, ream the point forming .224 die, maybe smelt some of the roofing lead into ignots. SWMBO hasn't weighed in with her plans though.:-)

CC

[Cane_man]

^^^ awesome... i think you will like that Lee 4-20, it might be overwhelming right but you will want to add the PID at some point as it takes temp control out of the thinking and you can just enjoy casting...

looking forward to your d reamer and point forming die, pics if possible, your better half permitting of course :)

[supe47]

I second the PID. Works well for annealing also. Buy 2 thermocouples, one for casting and such and one for food. PID is spot on used as a thermometer for turkey.

[customcutter]

Quick question, how thick are the sprue plates on boolit molds? Mine will be about 3/16" thick, and I'm wondering if the sprue's will drop easily with straight walls, or if I need to taper them about 45*. Probably need to polish them also?

Got the D-reamers heat treated and tempered back. Drilled all of the holes in one sprue plate. I guess I'll clean up the reamers and have a go at the point forming die.

thanks,
CC