Cast Biases?

[Bass Ackward]

The beauty of this board is that it will make you think. The negative of this board is that it will make you think too much. You can just get .... too darned in depth.

That may sound like a contradiction, but I read what others are doing and try the principal to ensure I ain't missin out on something. :grin: This, plus some of the posts I read lately about keep records and removing lube off exposed portions of the nose made me think .... another way. :grin: How many superb loads do we miss because of our biases?

Yesterday I tried an ACWW, 280 Keith (custom) bullet with 21 grains of RL7 which is a lightly compressed charge. Hearing about others complaints of unburned powder and dirty bores has kept me away from powders that are belived to be too slow. I never considered trying it with a 5 1/2" Redhawk and that light of bullet. So I even violated the rule and used a magnum primer that blows groups. Something I haven't done in a while.

Well, I guessed right as the RL7 left a dirty bore and a light ash. So quit right there was my decision until I got up and walked down range. Freak I said, so I went back and loaded it again. I ain't going to tell ya how excited I am at this point, so I ran and got some more "clean" handguns. Same thing. This can not be! So I tried it in the Marlin, she hates EVERYTHING! In total shock I asked my wife to try it. (Ah ..... will they let you shoot benchrest competition with a lever?)

Yesterday I came home and was cleaning some really filthy, dirty, nasty guns that are going BACK into the safe and will just wipe off my shooters. :grin: I was smiling through the whole process. Remembering the post about making notes, I went to jot down some of this episode. I found some things I wrote about 10 years ago when I was convinced I knew how to shoot cast bullets and use them for hunting. I read and laughed. Bottom line is I began to wonder, how has education and biases affected my shooting? Bob's line about education is really applicable here.

Here are my biases.

Never shoot a powder that may leave dirt / ash in a bore as it is way too slow for the cartridge / purpose. Can't even begin to predict how many I have passed here.

Wipe off all exposed lube. I suppose that this can be corrected by a lube change or bullet design or hardness, but .... not necessarily. This has me thinking now too.

Magnum primers ALWAYS blow groups. I will leave this one alone.

Short barrels can't burn slow powders and this needs to factor into my selection.

Make cast bullet notes about how to ALWAYS shoot cast bullets. Yep, you guessed it. I was pretty .... singularly focused back then apparently. And today's biases means I remain so to my detriment. Thank goodness, no one else could see those notes. :grin:

Never EVER use the words such as ALWAYS or CORRECT with cast again.

You change your mind on something lately?

[45 2.1]

Bob's line about education is really applicable here.
Don't worry about it John, I went thru that some years ago myself.

Never shoot a powder that may leave dirt / ash in a bore as it is way too slow for the cartridge / purpose. Can't even begin to predict how many I have passed here. Alot, believe me.

Wipe off all exposed lube. I suppose that this can be corrected by a lube change or bullet design or hardness, but .... not necessarily. This has me thinking now too. Anything that is too hard and sticky can be a detriment here.

Magnum primers ALWAYS blow groups. I will leave this one alone.
Good thing to leave alone, because always doesn't always belong there.

Short barrels can't burn slow powders and this needs to factor into my selection. Some cartridges do really well with short barrels and slow powders.

Make cast bullet notes about how to ALWAYS shoot cast bullets. Yep, you guessed it. I was pretty .... singularly focused back then apparently. And today's biases means I remain so to my detriment. Thank goodness, no one else could see those notes. :grin:
Always stick to the basics and don't assume something doesn't or won't work, because they often do.

Never EVER use the words such as ALWAYS or CORRECT with cast again. Yep

You change your mind on something lately? If you don't you should. Glad to here of your success John.

[felix]

Well, yeah, the facts NEVER change. Must propel something: somehow, someway. Must seal the tube: somehow, someway. Must meet the target head-on: somehow, someway. Must have enough momentum to do whatever damage necessary: somehow, someway. No other facts apply. ... felix

[Lloyd Smale]

Bass any idea what kind of velocity you were getting with that re7 load

[trk]

I believe in emperical evidence. (I.e.: something like 5 groups of 5 rounds all doing the same thing.) Then, that load will work (but only under similar conditions).

I REALLY like others stating principles - escpecially those that DON'T work for me. That tells me that there's room for learning.

[44man]

Yeah, I have had the same results with 3031 in the 45-70 revolver. Unburned powder up the yazoo out of each case, super tight groups and a dirty gun. Was it fast enough for distance? Was it good enough to hunt with? NO! 5744 was FILTHY and not accurate at all with a ton of unburned powder on the bench. I then tried Varget which is much, much slower and it actually burned better and had a higher velocity. Would I hunt with it? YES.
A blanket statement that a slow powder will work in anything just is not right.

[Bass Ackward]

Bass any idea what kind of velocity you were getting with that re7 load


Nope. Got so excited I forgot all about the chronograph, but I will. It ain't going to set any records that's for sure. But that wasn't the point.

Quickload predicts @1027 fps from the handgun, and 1358 from the rifle. I suspect a little slower in both. What got me excited is a handgun / rifle combo for the 280 grainer across several launching systems without different sizes, lubes blah, blah, blah.

[Char-Gar]

Knowing more about how human beings operate than how cast bullet operate, I find the original post very interesting. Interesting from the hyman psychology standpoint as well as the cast bullet standpoint.

Most human beings have a very low tolerance for disequilibrium. They like things to have finality, structure and order. They want stability and closure. Our worlds need order and not disorder or chaos.

In our search for equalibrium we gather data and information, process that stuff and come up with rules, structure and order. Our world demands order and predictibility.

Far, far, far to often this inner drive for equlibrium pushes us to conclusions and rules that we label facts. The rush to equalibrate form structures, rules and conclusions that are often partial and premature at best and sometime down right wrong and full of crap.

Then we walk to the target ,see the real true facts and disequalibrium once again raises it's head and the quest to find equalibrium and closure starts over again.

Your post deals with human nature at a very basic level. This time it is lead, powder, primer lube and a target. However, all to often there are no targets in other areas of life and we move though life working on false, impartial, hasty and even false ideas of how life is lived. In our quest for equlibrium and closure we can inflict great pain on ourselves, others and the world in general. Tis our nature!

Yea, I know I a could have said this in a simplier way, but Felix and others dont have mercy on me with all of their science speak, which is mostly code to me. :-).

[Bent Ramrod]

A friend of mine who is into BPCR silhouette has taken advantage of this absolutist tendency in people to reduce the cost of his shooting practice considerably. He's gotten cartons of primers at big discounts from his fellow competitors. These guys have stocked up on Magnum Large Rifle, then Large Rifle Match, then Large Pistol, etc., on the recommendations of the Experts. They then abruptly abandon these upon hearing the next round of Ex Cathedra Opinions from those In The Know about which new primer has suddenly become the only one worth bothering with for the exacting sport of BPCR. They restock with a pile of the latest and greatest, and use them until the inevitable denunciation and changeover occurs. My friend is always around with a few bucks to exchange for this "worthless" stuff. Same with shells with flash holes drilled out to X, Y or Z thousandths as their owners abandon them to go on to the next recommendation.

Of course, his loads don't have the "mojo," let alone the trendiness, of his up-to-the-minute colleagues, but he gets in a lot of perfectly good shooting practice, which counts for something, anyway.:-?

[Bret4207]

I think one of the true signs of character in a man is when he finds out something that he may have poo-pooed before and then has the integrity to say, "Hey, I never thought this would work, but it does". Good for you Bass!

I also prefer a spiffy, clean barrel showing me all my expensive powder burned. But if I have a load that shoots good and leaves a mess, well, I can deal with it.

[sundog]

Bret, the definition of 'character' among Army NCOs was doing the right thing even when no one was looking.

That's pretty heavy when you think about it.

[felix]

Maybe we can get Wayne to contribute to this thread. His professional background should provide some extreme "closure" to the entertainment thus far. Group therapy is indeed called for, and we need a pro leader, before insanity takes "aholt" and never lets go. ... felix

[MT Gianni]

Bret, the definition of 'character' among Army NCOs was doing the right thing even when no one was looking.

That's pretty heavy when you think about it.

Hopefully this isn't considered a thread hi-jack but it is the only way I know to use a quote. I wish the USAF had read that. My son Matt is out of the military as of this month with a general discharge, honorable conditions. His crime? He went to a party where alcohol was involved, and at age 20 1/2 he had 1 beer. He was called in by his company commander [my disuse of Caps is intentional here but not disrespectful to those who have served] and asked if he was at the party. He replied Yes. Then he was offered counsel "Ya don't want to Lawyer up do ya?". He said no and told them the truth that he was there but refused to "squeel on his buddies". He was cut back a stripe and removed of all driving priveleges on base for 1 year. He is Security Forces and should know to enforce the law not to break it was the reason. Now he can't drive on base, ergo he can't do his duty and is unfit for service. After 3 months of picking up trash he was released and glad to be out. His line remains strong in my ears, "That's where honesty and integrety get you in today's military". Gianni

[1Shirt]

As the Pa. Dutch saying goes, "Ve get too soon old and too late smart".
1Shirt!:coffee:

[Buckshot]

.................Sometimes laziness will substitute. For example 15 years ago when first working with the 6.5x55 Swede I stumbled on 32 - 34.0grs of WC860 or WC872 under a cast 150gr Lyman. Velocity = 1550, accuracy = < 1.5" @ 50 yards for 10 rounds.

However, that load left a thimble full of un- and partially burned powder pretty evenly distributed between the case and the barrel. This lead to what became known in the group as "The 860 Flick". You'd extract the case sufficiently to get ahold of it with your index finger and thumb. Lift it out, upend it, and give it a flick with your middle finger.

Of course we subsequently found some other loads that worked without that issue. But since the surplus powders were $28/8lbs at the time, it became a pretty universal load :-).

................Buckshot

[Buckshot]

............Mt Gianni, that's too bad. It would seem that if your son had a previously clean record, and otherwise was a good soldier the judgement far outweighed the crime (so to speak). He was also a young man, and still fairly new in the service. The military is having a tough time recruiting these days. On top of that they had a not unsubstantial amount of money already invested in your son.

I don't know about the other branches of the service, but in the Navy (or at least aboard ship) there was a non-judicial means for dealing with smaller infractions, called Captain's Mast. These did not go into a person's service jacket to follow them around for the rest of their time or career. Being 2nd only to God aboard ship, the captain's latitude for sentances could be stiff, but were short of cashiering someone.

From what you say, it appears to be a shame to me.

................Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

Bob's line about education is really applicable here.
Don't worry about it John, I went thru that some years ago myself.



Bob,

Well I finally beat you at something then. This has to be at least my third revelation of this. Or .... was it my fourth? :grin:

Just wait until you care so much about your load or ammo and getting it in the car that you leave your gun behind. Trust me, that's an ego crusher.


Bret,

Ah I have no pride anymore. I have been humbled too many times by cast. Every time I thought I had this or that locked down, something turned to show me it was gun specific. I don't cast for a lot of calibers anymore but I have multiple guns in each caliber that I do. So I should know better.

This is just another slap. No rules, just trends. Put a sign up now.

[45 2.1]

Bob,
Well I finally beat you at something then. I would be very carefull here admitting to beating me as the context doesn't help you at all. This has to be at least my third revelation of this. Or .... was it my fourth? :grin: Don't worry, at the rate your going, your going to be doing this again fairly soon. I'm waiting for you to put up a really good line at the bottom of your posts. It'll be interesting when you find a good one.

Just wait until you care so much about your load or ammo and getting it in the car that you leave your gun behind. Trust me, that's an ego crusher. That problem was solved, though I never did that though I have left some ammo before, by building a nice range behind the barn with a covered shooting shed, about 150 feet from the reloading shed.

[felix]

Happened to me several times over the last 5 years: wrong gun and/or wrong ammo, each requiring a ride back home without firing a shot. ... felix

[Bass Ackward]

I'm waiting for you to put up a really good line at the bottom of your posts. It'll be interesting when you find a good one.

And here I thought you would be proud of me. It's the Will Rogers version of yours.


Felix,

Ain't that a kicker. I just wonder if this made anyone think.

[Newtire]

Well Bass, it sure gives me hope! There are times when I have stumbled across some thing like this only to think, "Naw!" better not post it because so & so on the group will probably lambaste me on it but I have persevered anyhow & learned to glean the good stuff I can out of these posts & try to contribute when I have something. I'll have to try the SR 4759 in my .32-20 revolter for sure now. Colonel Townsend Whelen lists 8 gr. behind a 100 gr. boolit. I have also found HS-6 is a powder noone mentions much but it's working for me in the .32-20. All you can do is dirty up a gun right? Be safe!

[Bass Ackward]

Bass any idea what kind of velocity you were getting with that re7 load


Lloyd,

982av with ES of 16 in the handgun vs Quickload projection of 1027.

1410av with ES of 56 in the rifle vs Quickload projection of 1358. (it leaded some)

Same groups as last week and I tried 3 different diameters. .4305, .431, .432. Made no difference in group size.