Brass Shells and Smokeless

[Kitika]

I've got a whole lot of magtech brass shells in 12 gauge that I normally use for blackpowder but I was wondering if anyone had any smokeless loads that they use in them? I was hoping to load up 000 buckshot in them for hunting and maybe a few birdshot loads for CAS. Powders I have are unique and universal.

[jmort]

I have a lot of LP primers and no LP primer handguns any more, so I'm going to use Unique and see what happens. I also load 000 buckshot. Will start with 23 grains and go from there. Would like to hear your results here is some data I got from an unnamed member in a PM regarding two .575 balls.

"Same loads used in 3" plastic you can use in 2.5" magtech brass
if they are loaded with sabot out about .2".
For 2 ball load weighing 560 gr, max powder would be about 45gr of
Alliant Steel, start at 40 gr. I have no loads tested for any faster powders/
From the manuals on similiar weights of shot I think about
30gr of Blue Dot or Longshot would do.
Use plastic powder seal and a 1/4" felt or fiber wad. White felt is best.
If you use same amount volume wise of black powder it would be a real tame load.

Only problem with 2ball load load in brass there is no way to crimp over the sabot to keep
top ball in so you'd have to glue it in."

[Kitika]

23gr of unique sounds like a good start point to me. I'll try and get some loaded up in the next week or so and see how they go. I've watched guys shooting the brass cases with smokeless and getting alot of loads not igniting but they were downloading alot for CAS which might have been the problem.

[Kitika]

Had a chance to play abit with the shells. With the .360 round balls 000 I can fit 3 layers of 3 no worries at all on top of 95grains of BP a hard card wad and 1/2inch fiber wad. I didn't try it out but the 3 layers of 3 sure did look good! I'll be loading some up with smokeless powder for trying out next weekend. I'll post the results for those interested :)

[Kitika]

So i've done abit of research on Universal Powder. For 3 inch shell and 12 #00(645gr) which is close to the same weight as 9 #000 (630gr) I found this.
12-#00 LEAD BUCKSHOT Universal Fed. 209A Fed. 12S3 28 9,400 PSI 1250

And for 9 #00 (485gr) in a 2.75 shell
9-#00 LEAD BUCKSHOT Universal Win. 209 WAA12F114 24 9,200 PSI 1250

What are your thoughts on being safe with a starting load?

[Kitika]

I've loaded 6x shells in total 2x of each 23-24-25gr increments with hard card wad, .5 fiber wad and another hard card wad on top of that.73905

That's nine 000 balls sitting in there with enough space for another layer of 3 but that'd be about 840gr of payload which might be a bit much.

[jmort]

I would go slow. 840 grains is a load. I have had the BPI book on Magtech Brass Shot Shell reloading on back order for a long time. It is Black Powder only but my main interest is loading/wads/cards/sealing. Aside from common sense reloading data application of plastic data to brass, I do have a load I just saw for Red Dot. It was fairly anemic, around 1,000 fps. If you have some Red Dot I can look up the load. Just say the word. I'm probably going to start with Blue Dot or most likely 23 grains of Unique with a 525 grain payload of #1 buckshot or two 575 balls for 580 grains. I'm thinking the LP primers would feel right at home with the Unique. Universal is similar to Unique so for me, using my intended payloads, I would start at 21 grains of Universal, but I'm a Unique guy. You need Ed to chime in on this one as 840 grains sounds good, but where to start?

[Kitika]

I reckon i'll need a slower powder for the 840gr but getting them good ol' american powders down here takes awhile. I have a tub of Universal I'm trying to use up as I'm switching to Unique for all my pistol and shotgun loads so I can be Unique guy aswell and simplify the powder store. I'll see how these go on the weekend with the 640gr load and hopefully they work out okay.

[jmort]

Will be waiting for results. I going with three powders. Unique and Blue Dot, they both work for shotgun and pistol, and 4759 for shotgun and .45-70. That is enough for me. 4759 might be a good choice for your heavy loads. See Hubel458's thread. I'm not sure there would be enough room with the 4759. Steel requires magnum primer but the Fiocchi 616 primer seems to work with steel. Would be interested to see it Steel would work with a LP primer.

[Kitika]

I haven't seen 4759 for sale down here and I have a feeling it might not be imported which is a shame as I've seen some good loads with it in the 45-70 aswell. I'm stuck with alliant, adi/hodgon and Winchester powders and in saying that I've never seen a bottle of blue dot for sale either but I might be able to special order order but that is taking months at the moment because of the shortages.

[Kitika]

Alright had a go with the buckshot. I got lots of powder kernels left in the barrel and cases after firing and very mild recoil. The 25gr load had the least amount of left over powder and recoil similar to a very light target load. Grouping wasn't the best but I'm guessing that is because it doesn't have a shotcup to hold it together as its coming out the barrel. Some of the balls stayed in a layer of three and punched neat clovers into the paper which was pretty neat. I'm going to up the powder abit more and try a rolled paper cup to see if that holds the shot together. I did have good success with my round ball loads in AA shells and 23gr of universal which were quite pleasant to shoot.

[hubel458]

If you could get our super sabot it would work in
those cases.Ed

74402

[jmort]

That is my intention. I do have and recommend Ed's "Super Sabots"

[Kitika]

Had another go today. 25gr and 26gr with a hard card, fibre wad and 1 1/4oz shotcup with 10 balls stacked 2x5. All the shells failed to fire as I used large pistol primers instead of large rifle which I used last time. I've got some magnum rifle primers to try which should get all that powder burning in a timely manner.

[jmort]

Not sure if it matters, but they are designed for Large Pistol primers, which is why I got them as I have a large number of LP primers.

[Kitika]

I do realize they are supposed to have large pistol primers but the powder just wouldn't burn this time around which is a bit of a suprise. The primer had enough power to push the whole wad column into the barrel on three of the four shells I tried out but not enough to set the powder off? I've had trouble with Hogdon/Adi powders before not burning properly which is why I'm swapping to Alliant if it ever comes into stock again down here but I'll try the same loads as above again but with the magnum rifle primers and see how they go tomorrow. Fingers crossed that it works and I get a nice pattern!

[Kitika]

Success! Both loads went very well no unburnt powder and nice tight group of 6 pellets in the centre and the rest around it. Not to much recoil and I didn't have access to a chronograph to see how fast it was travelling so i'll have to do that in the future.
The load was CCI magnum rifle primer, 26gr of Universal, 11Ga hard card wad, 11Ga 1/2" fibre cushion and a shotcup removed from a 1 1/4oz Winchester wad. * with 10x 000 stacked 2x5.

[jmort]

Sweet - It seems that the OP seal is critical - check out this thread
http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,48392.0.html

[snuffy]

1. The inside diameter of the all-brass shells from mag-tech is MUCH bigger than a standard 12 ga shell. You need a 11 ga over powder wad.

2. you need quite a bit MORE powder than you would use in a standard 12 ga. plastic shell. Why? Because the combustion chamber is much larger. The brass shells have no base wad.

3. The bigger the shell, the faster the powder burn rate has to be. If you know anything about shotshell loading, the tiny .410 shell uses real slow powders like alliant-2400- IMR-4227. 20 ga uses faster powders, like IMR 4756 and SR-7625. Then the 12 ga witch uses alliant-red dot and 700-X. See the progression to faster powders as the gauge gets larger?

My limited experience with the brass shells has lead me to using the BPI X10X over powder wad with 11 ga card wads sandwiching a 12 ga. filler wad between 2 11 ga wads. Then, some 11 ga over-shot wads.

I also got the RCBS "cowboy" dies for loading the brass shells. They allow you to make a taper/roll crimp on the mouth of the case. If you ever saw the crimp used on 30-06 blank rounds, it's like half of a roll crimp to hold the paper wad in place. I also use some duco cement to hold the overshot wad in place.

[Kitika]

Have you tried the BPI x10X gas seal in the brass shells? I've been contemplating on getting them but if they don't work in the brass shells I don't have a 10 gauge to use them in. I've also got the cowboy dies but I don't like them they are pretty weak. I only use the shell plate for priming and remove the old primers by hand.
When you fire your loads do the crimps straighten out or do you have to take them off manually before reloading? I do the latter as the crimps never budge even with annealed cases.

[EspritBerlin]

Powder question: Hodgdon Longshot

Dear Reloaders

I am a newbie and need some help concerning powder. I would like to load

- 12 ga Magtech Brass Shotshells
- using LP-Primers, 11 ga Wads and
- Hodgdon's Longshot Powder

Shot will be 24 grams (7/8 oz.) lead. The setup would be: primed case, x grain Longshot, 11 ga over shot card, 11 ga fiber cushion wad, 24 grams lead shot, (maybe another 11 ga fiber cushion wad?), 10 ga over shot card, glued in place.

Hodgdon's database does not contain any loads regarding brass hulls and I am afraid of testing some "more or less equal" plastic case published load data.
I would be very happy if someone could give my some hints or has some experience with Longshot.

Another question I have concerns the over powder cards; do I really need them? Why not just use the fiber cushion over the powder?

Many thanks in advance,
sorry for my english,

greetings from Europe :-)

[Kitika]

Is longshot a fairly slow powder? I've never used it so can't comment on that powder but from my little experiments you'll need magnum primers to set off the powder charge and more powder than what you would normally use in say an AA shell to get good results. I believe the overpowder cards are in there to prevent any lube in lubed wads from contaminating the powder charge more than anything.
Another note I'll add is having such light shot weight might not build up enough pressure to burn the powder evenly either as I found adding another 210gr of lead to my charge helped getting the powder burning as the overshot card doesn't hold as much pressure as a star crimp would to get everything burning correctly.
I'd definitely try the fastest burning powder you can get and start with a pretty mild load and build up till you get a safe consistent load.

[SuperBlazingSabots]

Good morning and a hearty welcome to this Elite Musketeer group of slug shooter's, EspritBerlin.

As it is the shot gun industry has no standards to abide by:
1. Some barrels are under bored while a few the right size and then some over bored.
2. The hulls too are not different, some have tapered walls and other's straight walled.
3. The components are half way mis-match due to all odd sizes and untill you try them you do not know what works.

As if that's not enough, you bring in another set of dimension's into the equation by wanting to load Brass hull that need yet another size of components.
( For 12 ga brass hulls you need 11 gauge components and in some cases 10 ga. )

I too have the 12 ga 11/16 brass hulls that I bought just for the heck of it with # shot a box of 25 but to me its only good to look at and maybe good enough for HD purpose.

I'm not trying discourage you but painting a clear picture of a few things before to go too deep and get lost.

I love to experiment and want to proceed forwards with results and not side ways.

This is a fun hobby where you get to see the results of all your efforts the instant you pull the trigger.
Lets have fun,
1. Get started with Fiocchi straight walled hulls.
2. 7/8 oz is 380 gr., that weight is fine for LongShot powder, nothing wrong.
3. Get PC OP wads and order .125-20 gauge nitro cards to fill the top of OP wads cavity for better combustion and at launch and to form a really good barrier between the powder gases and the rest of your wad column.
Take a look at PC wad and with .125-20 nitro card on top of it in the bottom middle of the picture:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/RSS-1223-434grLongshotPowderCupcopy.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/RSS-1223-434grLongshotPowderCupcopy.jpg.html)
4. Use fold crimp instead of roll crimp.

Sorry for not being able to give you an answer you were looking for, perhaps some one else can help you.

Now for your own safety measure the OD of your barrel at the muzzle and report back. ( Some European guns have very thin barrels )

Once you get the hang of it then feel free to experiment with brass hulls and I too will learn from your findings!
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/PowderBurnRate_zps2b70cb1f.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/PowderBurnRate_zps2b70cb1f.jpg.html)
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/NewFinalPowderHullspace.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/NewFinalPowderHullspace.jpg.html)
You can safely use Lee 1 Oz slug load data for your 7/8 Oz load:
http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee75/Dantebeowulf/LeeSlugDataBlueDot-Herco.jpg (http://s232.photobucket.com/user/Dantebeowulf/media/LeeSlugDataBlueDot-Herco.jpg.html)

Hoping it will help.

I'm proud to be a Elite Musketeer, among other Elite Musketeer's here.
" One for all & All for one "

Best regards,
Ajay
http://www.BlazingSabots.com
BlazingSabots@Gmail.com
Blazing Sabots, LLC
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-Elite Group of Slug Shooter's
We all, who take slug loading seriously are a dedicated family, who have taken it upon ourselves to perfect our tech. We experiment to find better techniques and share our knowledge.

Location: New Jersey. USA / Frankfort, W.Germany / London, UK

[snuffy]

Have you tried the BPI x10X gas seal in the brass shells? I've been contemplating on getting them but if they don't work in the brass shells I don't have a 10 gauge to use them in. I've also got the cowboy dies but I don't like them they are pretty weak. I only use the shell plate for priming and remove the old primers by hand.
When you fire your loads do the crimps straighten out or do you have to take them off manually before reloading? I do the latter as the crimps never budge even with annealed cases.

"3. My limited experience with the brass shells has lead me to use the BPI X10X over powder wad with 11 ga card wads sandwiching a 12 ga. filler wad between 2 11 ga wads. Then, some 11 ga over-shot wads."

EspritBerlin, Your english is superb! Welcome to the cast boolit forum. My limited experience with the mag-tech brass shotshells tells me that any powder charge listed for plastic shotshells would be safe in the much bigger brass shells. The combustion chamber is much bigger, reducing pressure. Also, poor fitting 12 gauge wads don't seal well at all, further reducing pressure.

As far as the over powder card wad goes, it's function is to provide a hard seal against the inside wall of the shotshell hull. Most of the powder is burned inside the shell, before the payload and over-powder wad even enters the barrel. IF you used a fiber over-powder wad, you would not get that tight seal, they're too soft.

So far, I've loaded the 12 gauge, and the .410 shells. For the .410, I used a 44 magnum case with the mouth sharpened to an edge to punch some 20 gauge card wads to make brass shell over-powder-wads. They fit nice and snug, while standard .410 plastic and paper did NOT!

I was on my way to getting a standardized load for the 12's, but got sidetracked. I'll move that nearer to the top of things to do this summer.

As for the RCBS cowboy die set, it is quite weak as for the design that holds the decapping/expander rod together. That "C" clip pulls through if the expander is tight inside the shell.

The roll crimp that is formed does NOT iron out when the shell is fired. At least in my low pressure loads tried thus far. I used a spin-doctor made by BPI to remove that crimp.

All-in-all, loading the all brass shotshells is not for the rookie loader, the faint of heart, or somebody that does not like taking chances. Guessing at loads is risky business. The extra strength of the brass shells as opposed to plastic or paper, gives a margin for error.

Kitika. longshot is a fairly slow powder made for 1-¼ heavy loads in 12 Ga. It would not be a good powder for the brass shells.

[dverna]

I agree with snuffy. A 7/8 oz load with Longshot seems like a very poor combination.

Frankly, I have never seen the rationale of using brass shotgun shells. There is little to no load data so too many people wind up experimenting with loads in guns that have almost no margin for error. Life is too short as is, so why not use plastic hulls with factory load data.

[EspritBerlin]

Dear All

Many thanks for your replys. It helped a lot! Especially your hints for further reading (… or is it nowadays googeling :-) )

@Kitika: Thanks for the advise, yes, Longshot is too slow, if I would use only 7/8 oz. shot. There is loading data for 1 ¼ oz. and above, this mislead me (less lead -> reduce powder charge).
I think it will not work.

@VdoMemorie: Wow! The images make things very clear; after some further reading and looking at the power burning chart I think that Universal and above would be a good choice. I also have the Fiocchi hulls and want to use them for slugs.

@snuffy: „As far as the over powder card wad goes, it's function is to provide a hard seal against the inside wall of the shotshell hull. Most of the powder is burned inside the shell, before the payload and over-powder wad even enters the barrel. IF you used a fiber over-powder wad, you would not get that tight seal, they're too soft.“

Thanks, I managed to get some over powder cards from a friend; diameter is 18.9 mm (0.75“), thickness is 2.1 mm (~0.008 “). They fit well. He also underlined your statement. I use the cushion wads now just as a “over shot seal”.

I managed to get some loading data using Hodgdon Universal:

- 25 grain Universal
- Over power card
- 12 ga plastic wad for 7/8 oz. lead shot
- 11 ga cushion wad as a simple seal

I plan to try some shells next weekend and will report about the results.

78213

[EspritBerlin]

... Life is too short as is, so why not use plastic hulls with factory load data.

Sports shooting. I want to use the brass shells for a special sport discipline:
5 steel plates, 15 meters (~50 feet) distance. Four strings:

Double barrel shotgun, no ejector, loaded with zwo rounds. Stock next to the hip bone.
Start signal, raise the shotgun, first two shots, reload, two shots, reload, hopefully just one more shot and all five plates are down.
The time of all four strings is your score. Each standing per string plate adds 10 seconds as a penalty to your score.

The motivation using brass shells is to reduce reloading time. After two shots, open the shotgun, let the shells fall out, reload.
I used to pull the hulls out of the shotgun, that takes more time.

As an example: my score is about 70 seconds (sum of four strings). Shooters using brass shells score about 50 seconds.

[EspritBerlin]

Dear all

As I mentioned last week, here are my (re-)loading results of the Magtech Hulls.

First, I changed to Hodgdon Universal, using 25 grain. I primed the first shells using Winchester Large Pistol (LP) primers; they were not magnum.
Unfortunately, normal LP primers did not ignite the powder. So I tried CCI LP Magnum (CCI 350) and Winchester Large Rifle (WLRM) as primers.
It all worked out; now, here some details:

1. Shell/Powder-Set-Up

Primer was (i) CCI 35 or (ii) WLRM
Powder 25 grain Hodgdon Universal
1/8" Nitro Card (Circle Fly), 11 ga.
plastic wad for either (a) 24 grams or (b) 28 grams lead shot, always using 24 grams lead shot (~0.85 oz.)
1/8" Nitro Card (Circle Fly), 11 ga.
Overshot cards, 10 ga. (Circle Fly)


The 24 grams wad (using 24 grams lead shot!) did not work so well; the shot piled up a little bit. The larger wad (for 7/8 oz. loads) left about 1-1.5 mm (0.05") space on top of the shot.
We will see how it worked out.

I tried four configurations (primers/ wads), two cartridges each.

78886

2. Results

I shot standing, distance to target was 15 meters (50 feet):

78887

Targets were wallpaper; in the centre I sticked BIRCHWOOD CASEY's (BC) "fluorescent yellow ring of color around each bullet hole" targets.
Diameter of the BC target is 20 cm (~8").

All above mentioned configurations worked; concerning the shot patterns, the larger wad worked better. My explenation is that the smaller wad did not manage to keep the shot all together, the larger one did that obviously ("shaking-sound").

78888

Powder/ Residue in the brass hulls is as expected:

78889

Primer pocket residue also:

78890

Comparing the shot patterns, the ones using the Winchester Large Pistol primers seemed to be a little tighter.

[wildlew]

Where did you get your Data?

[EspritBerlin]

Where did you get your Data?

Three ways:


Looking at Hodgdon's website; powder charges for Universal loads are "about 25 grain".
Of course, "about xxx grain" is not a reliable source, but a friend of mine loads a lot plastic shells. After the discussion here (Longshot would be inappropriate for 7/8 oz. and less loads) I asked him about his experience with faster burning powder. He recommended Universal; his proofed load data for plastic shells (star crimp, a little bit more resistance for pressure expansion) is 25 grains.
A journal published some load data; also about 25 grain Universal.


This mixture of information (more or less all the same) made me confident trying it.

The recoil is very mild.

[BCB]

I have done searches on this site as well as a couple of other sites and old Handloader Magazines and can’t seem to get data for loading brass shotgun shells…

16 gauge in particular…

Is there some published data that would list recipes for brass shotgun shells?...

I am talking smokeless powders…

Can published data for plastic hulls be used, but I am certain the shot column wouldn’t be correct…

Any help…

Thanks…BCB

[Kitika]

Okay had a little bit more of a play with the magtech shells. I used 27gr of Universal a x10x overpowder wad an 11ga fiber wad, 9x 000 buck and an 11ga overshot card all set off by a large rifle primer. Pretty good pattern at 15m and pretty stout recoil. Best of all is pretty close to all the powder is being burnt.
I will chrony this load in the next month or so and see where it is at speed wise but I am quite happy with it.

[Ballistics in Scotland]

I don't see any problem with Magtech cases and the size of powder or shot charges. They will be fine with any recommended for paper or plastic, or perhaps a little more, as long as you don't use any substitute for a crimp which imposes extra pressure on leaving the case.

But the step down from case to bore will normally be greater, and this demands more care with choice of wads to maintain a seal, or of slug. With buckshot you should be especially careful to make sure they don't jam up on entering the bore. That could cause excessive pressure, although deformed shot, resulting in fliers, is more likely than any more drastic mishap.

There are also a few British guns designed for brass cases, and probably marked as such. They are sold as 12ga etc., but the fine print of the proofmarks, since they are of fairly late manufacture, will show either a larger bore dimension or 12/1, 11 etc. They may be loaded a bit too heavily by people who have heard that they used very heavy shot charges. So they did, but this was safe due to the low powder charges used, rather than the almost total absence of a step down at the lead.