Progress on 30 Luger 1911

[StarMetal]

I got the barrel bored out and cut with a larger diameter and shoulder on the breech end to accept the liner. I have the liner cut too. I have pictures of the barrel and liner, then the liner partially in the barrel. Now I have to mate the permanently with silver solder and chamber.

Joe

[Buckshot]

...........Looks good Joe. Pretty nice work as a matter of fact!

...............Buckshot

[Swagerman]

Nice work, Starmetal.

I had a smith back in 1988 do the very same thing to a .45 acp barrel, he put a .44 caliber sleave liner in the bored out Colt barrel. I call it the .44 apc (apc means Auto Pistol Cartridge) the brass casings are made from cut down reamed .308 rifle brass trimmed to .937 OAL.

This made for a drop-in barrel change to effect a caliber change in the old Colt or clone .45 acp pistol. All other factors were workable like the standard magazines and other auto pistol functions.

I've used .429 bullets of cast and jacketed types with good success.

Bullet weights have been as lite as 145 grain (which is really lite) to 230 grain. The highest velocity I tested was a cast 175 grain bullet RN that topped out just over 1,500 fps.

Thought I really had something going with this invention, but even though I had a US patent on it nothing ever came of it. In fact, spent a lot of money on it I wish I still had.

Then a couple of guys tried to steal the idea from me...but that came to naught for them.

Such is the world.


Swagerman

[StarMetal]

Well the 30 Luger 1911 project is finished. I have some pictures here, but they don't reveal alot. One is of the muzzle to show how small a bore it is compared to a 45 acp. The other is the gun. The slide is a new Springfield Armory 9mm. I got the upper complete from the previous owner of Springfield Armory. Just test firing it at 25 yards resulted in nice 2 inch groups which will still be refined. The load I used were made up for my German Luger in 30 Luger.

Joe

[Scrounger]

Good project, Joe. Congrats.

[StarMetal]

Thanks Art

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

That IS nice, Joe. Stand by for the P-226 barrel that should land on yer doorstep in a couple days! (J/K!!)

This might seem like a pretty esoteric project to some handgunners, but after using the 30 Luger and 30 Mauser on small game and varmints for about 15 years now, I can say that the round is very impressive on such quarry, and is a flat-shooting field cartridge that is every bit as useful as the 32 Magnum.

Kudos to Joe for not throwing in the towel on this idea. He and I had several phone conversations with after-market barrel-makers and gunsmiths, and they wanted no part of making a "swap" barrel for any 9mm handgun.

In this day of 454, 480, and 500 caliber handguns--making a 30 or 32 caliber sidearm is definitely swimming upstream--in flash flood conditions, complete with granite boulders and tree trunks to dodge, if the erstwhile makers of such items are to be believed. There is not one good reason that 30 Luger swap barrels for 9mm's or 22 LR conversions for many service pistols can't be cobbled up--the 22's are around in scarce numbers, but the fact is that gunmakers want to sell you a whole new gun, rather than expand the usefulness of products already in consumer hands. Greedy SOB's.

Well done, Joe!

[StarMetal]

Thanks Deputy Al for being understanding and a friend through all this. Well I got some of the pretesting bugs out of it today and have put quite a few rounds through it. Allen you may not believe it but out of Unique, Clays, 231WW, and IMR 4227, the 4227 chewed a ragged one inch hole at 25 yards that was 15 shots, with just a flyer or two. This was standing up leaning against my lower garage retaining wall and my aging eyes. I had to adjust the load three times to find the sweet spot and also changed out the barrel bushing. Remember I told you that 4227 shot good in my Chinese Tokie. It's even betten in 1911 because the barrel is slightly longer. I have it shooting dead center vertically, but a tad low. This gun is going to warrant an adjustable rear target sight. Don't forget too Al that the barrel come from a 30-06 Remington rifle barrel that Ben was so generous to sell me for a very reasonable price and that the groove on this is dead on .308. My Lee 100 cast bullets are sized at .313 for the Luger whose groove diameter is a tad larger. So you see I still have more experimenting and testing to do. It's amazing how the groups were different for each type of powder. The slide is still a tad tight, but breaking in nice now. That last load change of 4227 functioned the pistol just fine. Al you have to shoot this to believe how light the recoil is in the big ole 1911. Don't forget the bottom frame is off my 70 series Gold Cup so it has an excellent trigger. The current sights are standard Springfield Armory 1911 sights which are modified from the original 1911 in that they have more of square target front blade and the rear has a corresponing square notch. Quite adequate but not fully adjustable. Also bear in mind that when setting the barrel to fully seat in the locking lugs that it raises the rear of the barrel thus lowering the bullet impact quite a bit. All in all I'm very please with it.

Joe

[Scrounger]

Thanks Deputy Al for being understanding and a friend through all this. Well I got some of the pretesting bugs out of it today and have put quite a few rounds through it. Allen you may not believe it but out of Unique, Clays, 231WW, and IMR 4227, the 4227 chewed a ragged one inch hole at 25 yards that was 15 shots, with just a flyer or two. This was standing up leaning against my lower garage retaining wall and my aging eyes. I had to adjust the load three times to find the sweet spot and also changed out the barrel bushing. Remember I told you that 4227 shot good in my Chinese Tokie. It's even betten in 1911 because the barrel is slightly longer. I have it shooting dead center vertically, but a tad low. This gun is going to warrant an adjustable rear target sight. Don't forget too Al that the barrel come from a 30-06 Remington rifle barrel that Ben was so generous to sell me for a very reasonable price and that the groove on this is dead on .308. My Lee 100 cast bullets are sized at .313 for the Luger whose groove diameter is a tad larger. So you see I still have more experimenting and testing to do. It's amazing how the groups were different for each type of powder. The slide is still a tad tight, but breaking in nice now. That last load change of 4227 functioned the pistol just fine. Al you have to shoot this to believe how light the recoil is in the big ole 1911. Don't forget the bottom frame is off my 70 series Gold Cup so it has an excellent trigger. The current sights are standard Springfield Armory 1911 sights which are modified from the original 1911 in that they have more of square target front blade and the rear has a corresponing square notch. Quite adequate but not fully adjustable. Also bear in mind that when setting the barrel to fully seat in the locking lugs that it raises the rear of the barrel thus lowering the bullet impact quite a bit. All in all I'm very please with it.

Joe

I want one. Quanto?

[9.3X62AL]

4227, eh? Interesting. AA-7 has been THE powder for me in both 30 Luger and 30 Mauser with j-words, maybe I need to expand horizons a bit.

I certainly believe how gentle the 30 Luger could be in the 1911A1. In the P-89, the recoil impulse remains very docile, even when running the critter with the 9mm recoil spring and some pretty high velocities and pressures.

I recently located a Lyman #311419 mold for the 30 calibers, and the "30 Bottlenecks" will be the first platforms to get test drives with the little flatnosed gas checked castings.

[StarMetal]

Art,

Mucho Mucho Expensivo.

I did cut and chamber an extra sleeve though. Maybe we could talk about it.

Joe

[Swagerman]

Caliber and gun is a real winner, you did good in bringing it all together.

I wish I had one.

Swagerman :)

[StarMetal]

Swagerman

I wished too and I made it come together, you can too. If anything you can get the needed items and have someone like Buckshot do the machine work for you (I'm not really good enough, Rick has alot more experience on the lathe). Chambering it isn't hard and neither is fitting the barrel to slide. Just take your time, read about it, ask questions. I'll tell you all how amazing it is that just that smaller bore and little extra metal it has in the barrel REALLY makes the 1911 HEAVY!!! I'm already eying up an adjustable rear sight.

Joe

[trooperdan]

Several decades ago I was stationed in Germany. I strolled into the Weisbaden Rod and Gun club and saw a new Colt Commander in the display case, caliber .30 Luger! The price was $130 (remember this was about 1970 or so!) and they had five of them. I was told it was part of a special contract for some European police force. I bought it and I had a heck of a time getting it registered with the Provost Marshall.. their program just didn't allow for a .30 L Commander!

I never even fired it, I saw one collecter that had one for sale and he wanted $3,000 for it. Mine went south with a son that got into illicit stimulants; probably traded for $50 worth of coke.

[StarMetal]

Interesting, I repeated that test with the 4227 powder except I sized the bullets to .310 instead of the ones that were sized to .313 for the Luger. It shot the same size group, BUT it moved is up about an inch and to the left about an inch. Now I'll have to repeat it with all the other powders. This gun is really a joy to shoot. I must be getting old liking the smoother shift then the 45acp. Besided the smallblock 30 Luger doesn't eat up as much fuel as the bigblock 45 acp. Oh darn, now I'm talking chevies again.

Joe

[carpetman]

Starmetal---Now that's a new concept---use fixed sights and always aim same spot--just use a different powder load to aim it.

[StarMetal]

Ray,

I didn't change the powder, just the bullet sizing. I've never seen that much of a change in group location before.

Joe

[waksupi]

Glad it all came together for you, Joe.

But geez, whining about a couple extra grains of Bullseye for the 45ACP? And I thought _I_ was tighter than a bull's ass in fly time!

[StarMetal]

Oh I was just kidding Ric. What I meant is over all, like you said just a tad less powder, but alot less lead for the bullet. You thought about one for you 1911?

Joe

[StarMetal]

Here are some targets shot with the 1911 30 Luger. The first is 15 shots using the Lee 100 gr RN overtop 8 grs of 4227, the second one is same bullet and the bullet is sized .310 and used 9 grs of 4227, and third is where the bullet was sized .313 overtop 9 grs of 4227. I upped the powder one grain to cycle the gun better, which it does.

Joe

[Scrounger]

Here are some targets shot with the 1911 30 Luger. The first is 15 shots using the Lee 100 gr RN over top 8 grs of 4227, the second one is same bullet and the bullet is sized .310 and used 9 grs of 4227, and third is where the bullet was sized .313 over top 9 grs of 4227. I upped the powder one grain to cycle the gun better, which it does.

Joe

Quick, Joe, remove these photos and destroy them. Those aren't StarMetal Groups, the kind we have come to expect of you. I know you are going to try different bullet and powder combinations and shortly will achieve the kind of groups you have shown us in the past. Your project is already a success.

[carpetman]

Starmetal---I dont recall ever seeing 1500 yard targets better than those.

[StarMetal]

Oh Gosh Darn fellows, I forgot to mention I held the pistol with my feet!!!!

Joe

[Buckshot]

...........Joe, that's really great stuff! Congratulations on what appears to be a superb job. The crown on the barrel looks to be clean and well done. You've had your lathe for what now, 2 months maybe if that long?

I also don't see anything terribly wrong with those groups either. I've read many a handgun report where several different brands and type of ammo were shot (most recent in the newest AR) and it turned in 4.5" groups at 25 yards. Their comments were that for a defence handgun they were fine. True enough, but everyone wants to see each shot cut the other.

Pretty snazzy stuff for early development work. I'm impressed!

.............Buckshot

[StarMetal]

Thanks Rick for your kind and encourages words. Now I'm racking my brain trying to think what my next project is going to be. I think I've created my own self monster.

Joe

[9.3X62AL]

[QUOTE=StarMetal]Thanks Rick for your kind and encourages words. Now I'm racking my brain trying to think what my next project is going to be. I think I've created my own self monster.

That SIG-Sauer barrel is enroute! No need to ask me twice! :-)

Great job, Joe.

[StarMetal]

Well I guess I passed my BGM test so I'm finished with the BGM school. Oh, that's Buckshot Gunsmith Machinist school. I got the great Guru of the Silver Stream's approval.

You know Deputy Al, I've been eyeing up alot of bottom feeders. I was thinking about sleeving that CZ52 to 30 Luger and as for the Norinco 7.62x25, well shoot the way they make their barrels is pretty simple. Might even just make a whole new barrel for it in 30 Luger. See what you started? I was a perfectly normal 45 acp and 45 Long Colt shooter and lover and you turned me into a smallbore freak. Bad enough I like that little bugger, but I had to go and get an original gun in that caliber, the P 08 German Luger.

Now here's a real simple barrel to make and that is the Walther PP and it's brothers and sisters. They are merely a tube with a stepped up shoulder and pinned to the frame hole they reside in. Hmmmmmmmmm what can we make for those???? yeah yeah, I know, 30 Luger is a bit much for that puny frame. How about a 22/32? Yeah and 32 acp necked down to 22, or your case Al a 25/32, there you go, maybe a companion sorta to your 25-20. Apparent you can see the effect you have had on me by introducing me to the smallbores.

Joe

[45 2.1]

Joe-

Someone introduced that 22/32 cartridge recently, but I would be carefull with it in a blowback gun. The walthers handle a hopped up 32 acp ( 60 gr. cast at 1010 fps ) ok, but any more would be a problem.

[Willbird]

http://www.makarov.com/32naa/index.html

this is not a 22/32, but it is a 32/380, and they also have a 25/32 (NAA) that works great in, and is designed for blowback pistols

Bill

[StarMetal]

Willbird

That downright interesting.

Joe

[Doc69er]

Hello All, anyone know where I can find a 1911 Gov't. length .30 Luger Barrel, or someone who is able to build one?

[Echo]

Any magazine issues?

[Echo]

What kind of pressures are we talking about? I am very intrigued, have a spare .45 bbl, and can see myself having a bbl made up and converting one of my .45's, but am somewhat leery of putting .30 Luger pressures in Ol' Slabsides. Must work, though... but...

[KYCaster]

What kind of pressures are we talking about? I am very intrigued, have a spare .45 bbl, and can see myself having a bbl made up and converting one of my .45's, but am somewhat leery of putting .30 Luger pressures in Ol' Slabsides. Must work, though... but...


The IPSC guys push 115 gr. .356's at about 1500 fps. Some of their loads have been measured in excess of 60K psi so I don't think your 30 Luger would be a problem.

Jerry