S&W 52, wadcutter loads

[historicfirearms]

I just traded the wife's sks-m for a Smith and Wesson 52-2. The pistol is in excellent condition and I'm very excited, the boss probably not so much......

Anyway, I've got the Lee 148 grain wadcutter mold and am going to load up some ammo for it. Anyone tried lighter weight wadcutters in a 52? NOE still has some of his 100 grain molds for sale and it looks like it might be fun. Any excuse for a new mold, right?

[Green Frog]

The Model 52 was designed specifically to shoot flush seated 148 grain wadcutters loaded to a standard that the factory called "Mid-Range Wadcutter." They are totally reliable when shot with those cartridges, but I'm not sure what would happen if you departed from that standard by a significant amount, and the recoil (to operate the slide) of a 100 grain bullet might not work very well. It would be 1/3 less mass to generate the momentum. You might be able to make it work with a more powerful charge for a higher velocity (Momentum=Mass X Velocity) but getting everything balanced again is way above my pay grade and math background!

Froggie

[NoZombies]

I had some luck with a 52-2 and 125 grain WC's, but I did have to use a lighter recoil spring to get reliable cycling with the powder puff loads that make the idea so attractive. I can't remember what the spring rate was unfortunately, but I think it was 2# less than stock for 125 grainers at 775 FPS (using bullseye, I think 2.6 grains, but I don't have the data handy)

[Outpost75]

My advise would be to keep your Model 52 original and don't swap springs to get it to cycle reliably with lighter bullets, because there is some risk of then cracking the frame if you put standard ammunition in it inadvertently, by mistake.

You can closely approximate the velocity and recoil impulse of factory wadcutters by using a 146-148-grain double-end wadcutter, such as the Saeco #348, flush seated and taper crimped with 3.0 grains of Bullseye or 3.3 grs. of W231. You need to increase charges slightly with the DEWC bullets compared to soft-swaged HBWCs to get them to shoot well. DO NOT exceed 3.2 grains of Bullseye or 3.5 of W231 in any case.

72762

[williamwaco]

That gun is "priceless"

Don't risk messing it up.


.

[historicfirearms]

Ok, thanks for the priceless advice. ;-)

I've been reading up on loads here on castboolits. I will just stick with the 148's as they seem to work very well for everyone.

[birch]

I would personally go balls out with that gun. Don't hold back a bit--maybe even flush seat some j-words with a roll crimp over 4 or 5 grains of Bullseye. I wouldnt even run a recoil spring. I know my dad didnt think about the consequences back in 1975, and I seem to have a great grasp on how to get things to run and run well.

[Green Frog]

I would personally go balls out with that gun. Don't hold back a bit--maybe even flush seat some j-words with a roll crimp over 4 or 5 grains of Bullseye. I wouldnt even run a recoil spring. I know my dad didnt think about the consequences back in 1975, and I seem to have a great grasp on how to get things to run and run well.

HUH?? Are you being sarcastic or trolling? Do you even know what a Model 52 IS?

[NoZombies]

HUH?? Are you being sarcastic or trolling? Do you even know what a Model 52 IS?
I assume he's trolling.

I'm not sure why people would get so bent out of shape over the idea of lighter loads and a lighter recoil spring in a model 52. I had a 6 cavity H&G WC mold that dropped perfect 125 GN WC's, and I preferred shooting them in my 52, so I did. When I eventually sold the gun, I replaced the standard recoil spring, and kept the lighter one in case I ever pick up another 52.

[BruceB]

Trolling, indeed. This is very suspicious "information", and the motives are....obscure, let's say.

There is a rather large area at the rear of the M52 chamber in which the case ahead of the rim is UNSUPPORTED.

With normal target loads, this presents no problems. I can assure y'all, though, that "four or five grains of Bullseye" with almost ANY bullet will either give a major bulge in the case wall..... or a disastrous blow-out of the case in that area.

This blowout has the potential to destroy the magazine and grips, and even distort the frame. DON'T DO IT!!!!!!!!!

Treated correctly, the M52 will last about forever (we have over a quarter-MILLION handloads through our two M52s with no sign of wearing out on either of them). Abuse it with heavy loads and /or light springs, and it will die an early death.

[historicfirearms]

Thanks Bruce. I read a bunch of your posts on the 52 when I did a search. Very helpful info.

Nozombies, I agree about trying lighter boolits. As long as I keep them at low pressure, what can it hurt? I'm an experienced reloader and know what I'm doing.

Birch, WTH? Do you know what end of a wadcutter goes first?

[Green Frog]

HF, when I was working with a man I considered a very talented and knowledgeable gunsmith 20 years ago, there were some folks who were experimenting with the then-readily-available Model 52 for all sorts of non-Bullseye uses... one guy even altered two or three mags to hold 6 rounds so he could shoot PPC with it! Anyway, as I watched all of these goings-on, one thing became very clear to me... Smith & Wesson built the finest 38 Special Mid-Range Wadcutter shooting Bullseye Semi-auto Pistol in the World. There were things that could be done to make it serve other purposes, but that was what it was, so I didn't want to mess with it. I suppose somewhat lighter or somewhat heavier loads could be made up and the spring combination could be adjusted to make it function, but I had to wonder why and besides, that kind of work would be way above my pay grade. By the way, early 52s were set up for the rimless 38 AMU, but I think other than the rim it was a 38 Special MRWC.

Hey NZ, did you ever hear about Austin Behlert's Model 41 conversions to 32 S&W Long WC? Not the same as a light loaded 52, but it ought to really turn the cranks on a couple of old 32 lovers like us, huh? ;-)

Froggie

[NoZombies]

Hey NZ, did you ever hear about Austin Behlert's Model 41 conversions to 32 S&W Long WC? Not the same as a light loaded 52, but it ought to really turn the cranks on a couple of old 32 lovers like us, huh? ;-)


I can't say I've seen that one Froggie, but it sure sounds interesting. I've got a french made auto pistol in .32 long WC, but I really hate chasing brass, so I mostly stick with the revolvers. Honestly, that was the same reason I sold off the model 52...

[country gent]

The old stand by or go to load with the NRA bullseye shooter was 38 spl cases all trimmed the same length, A small pistol primer 2.6-2.7 grns of bullseye, a 148 grn Hollow based wadcutter, with a light roll crimp over the forward edge. In my 1911 wadcutter gun this load will shoot 10 shot groups that can be covered with a quarter at 25 yds of the bench. The double end and bevel base work good but not quite as accurate as the Hollow bases. My wadcutter gun has a 6 lb spring in it for these loads. Its a lock up gun not blowback. The 52 and 1911 were desighned around light target loads, why the mags were desighned so only wadcutters could be chambered. Keep the loads in the right area and youll have a ball with this pistol, The recoil is neglible accuracy is supurb and functioning is very reliable.

[Mk42gunner]

...Hey NZ, did you ever hear about Austin Behlert's Model 41 conversions to 32 S&W Long WC? Not the same as a light loaded 52, but it ought to really turn the cranks on a couple of old 32 lovers like us, huh? ;-)

Froggie

I don't remember the Austin Behlert guns, but I remember seeing a picture of a Ruger Standard Model that was converted to .32 S&WL WC. IIRC it was done in Arizona.

Robert

[historicfirearms]

Anyone tried the Saeco #053 wadcutter in the 52? I like the looks of that boolit with the single lube groove and wide driving bands. It has a little nose on it so maybe it won't fit in the magazine very well though.

[gmsharps]

52's were made to shoot flat nosed wadcutters nothing else. If you seat the bullet deeper to compensate for the nose pressures will go up dramatically. Just be careful

gmsharps

[GBertolet]

Load the double ender sprue mark up. The base is more critical for uniformity than the nose is. I have a 52-1, and I agree that this is one fine piece of equiptment. 2.7-2.8 gr of Bullseye is the standard powder charge for the 52 with the 148 gr.

[69daytona]

I just bought a NIB 52-2 that came with extra S&W mags still in the package, Now to wait the 10 days to get it. I bought a 148gr HBWC mold from Mihec and it casts beautiful WCs. Its a brass 4 cavity mold. payed 140 for it with shipping, He still has a few more. I couldnt belive the trigger on my gun when I dry fired it last night in the gun shop.
Go to www,mp-molds.com and write Miha asking for the 148gr HBWC mold, you wont be disappointed. Just need to run them hot so the pins stay hot to release easy when you drop them.

[historicfirearms]

I had the Mihec hbwc mold but couldn't get mine to cast good boolits. My problem was I couldn't run it hot so the boolits didn't stick without distorting the bases. The lead was just too malleable when the mold was run hot, and that allowed the base to be distorted as it came off the pin. If I tried to cast cooler, I'd get all kinds of sticking problems. I tried lapping, smoking, polishing, different alloys and temps and nothing worked for me. Too bad because I liked the boolit design, but the distorted bases made the mold useless to me.

[HeavyMetal]

HF you still got that mold?

The one I have works great and I might be interested in a second should you still have it.

By the way the Mehic HBWC with federal match case's and fed SP 2.8 grains Bullseye will shoot a one hole group on the 20 yard indoor range.

Be aware I trim to length, ream primer pockets, de burr flash holes and use just enough crimp to make the case straight.

Feeds flawlessly, even empty case's, which is why I don't OD on the crimp.
HM

[waksupi]

I would personally go balls out with that gun. Don't hold back a bit--maybe even flush seat some j-words with a roll crimp over 4 or 5 grains of Bullseye. I wouldnt even run a recoil spring. I know my dad didnt think about the consequences back in 1975, and I seem to have a great grasp on how to get things to run and run well.


This is why we recommend that no one take loading advise from people on a forum. Trolls such as this may find someone as gullible as they are, and get them injured. Staff will keep an eye on this guy, maybe put his postings on a moderated status. That means more work for us, and since I don't like more work, his stay may be very short.

[gmsharps]

historicfirearms

It sounds like you might be running to soft of an alloy. Try hardening it up a bit and see if the distortion eases up. Also are you using a soft towel or something like that to catch the bullets. If you didn't have a soft enough landing spot that would distort them also. Just a thought.

gmsharps

[30calflash]

Anyway, I've got the Lee 148 grain wadcutter mold and am going to load up some ammo for it. Anyone tried lighter weight wadcutters in a 52? NOE still has some of his 100 grain molds for sale and it looks like it might be fun. Any excuse for a new mold, right?

A bullseye shooting friend used the Lee W/C mold for his 52 with no problems. The nose is too short to be an issue, unless they have changed it since then. This was from about 25 years back.
HTH.

[williamwaco]

There is lots of good advice here.

There is also lots of bad advice here.

Here is the key:

That gun was specially designed, from the ground up, to be X-ring accurate with very light, low power, low recoil ammo.

It was a spectacular success.

Loading it up is like taking a Lincoln Town car to the Baja 1000.
You will not be happy with the results.

[historicfirearms]

Guys, I know birch and he's no troll. He was just trying to be funny. I can see how people may not have caught on to the humor, but I saw it and got a chuckle. Don't believe everything you see online, good rule to live by. Written word is sometimes hard to judge context.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'm not sure why some took my original question of trying light boolits as some type of indication that I was reckless. Everyone on here can use google and get the standard load. I appreciated the advice from those that have actually reloaded for a M52.

This site used to be a lot friendlier. Unfortunately, with a bunch of new reloaders on here, I think the old timers are getting a little tired. I've got thick skin but lately even I have been caught off guard by poor attitudes from some. This is supposed to be fun, right?

One funny anecdote I'd like to share. I went to college in the U.P. of Michigan. When I got up there I heard the locals calling us trolls. It took me a while to ask what they meant by that. The answer: we lived under (south) the bridge (Mackinac). So to a yooper, everyone in the lower peninsula is a troll.

[Green Frog]

Guys, I know birch and he's no troll. He was just trying to be funny. I can see how people may not have caught on to the humor, but I saw it and got a chuckle. Don't believe everything you see online, good rule to live by. Written word is sometimes hard to judge context.

Thanks for all the advice everyone. I'm not sure why some took my original question of trying light boolits as some type of indication that I was reckless. Everyone on here can use google and get the standard load. I appreciated the advice from those that have actually reloaded for a M52.

This site used to be a lot friendlier. Unfortunately, with a bunch of new reloaders on here, I think the old timers are getting a little tired. I've got thick skin but lately even I have been caught off guard by poor attitudes from some. This is supposed to be fun, right?

One funny anecdote I'd like to share. I went to college in the U.P. of Michigan. When I got up there I heard the locals calling us trolls. It took me a while to ask what they meant by that. The answer: we lived under (south) the bridge (Mackinac). So to a yooper, everyone in the lower peninsula is a troll.

I'm glad to hear your friend is no troll, regardless of which side of the bridge he lives on, but I get very nervous when I see statements like that being made when loading suggestions are involved. I just don't like to see misinformation and loading suggestions in the same paragraph, humor notwithstanding. My friendliness quotient is pretty high, but that kind of thing exceeds it... YMMV.

To get back to your original post, the bullseye shooters around here sometimes thought of the Model 52 as being very touchy because of it's slowness. Followthrough was the answer, but some of my shooting friends claimed they could pull the trigger and hear the bang then get their gun down on the bench before the bullet left the barrel. This was exaggeration, of course, but it was easy to pull off target if followthrough were not just right. We joked that my dad liked shooting his because he moved so slowly he couldn't move the gun in time to throw it off. ;)

Slightly off topic, I had a Colt 38 Special Gold Cup top (on an Ace frame, not that it matters) let go on me once when I used some old, much reloaded brass. Fortunately, the round that went was the last one in the mag, so I got a ruined mag, cracked grips and a peppering of brass in my face and glasses. I load only brass known to be fairly fresh in any semi-auto pistol with 38 spl.

Froggie

[MtGun44]

No offense intended, but IME, putting blown cases down to "old, much reloaded brass" rather than
a double charge is making an excuse for the unfortunate human error of double charging a case.
Normal loads in that case will not blow a case no matter how many times it is loaded, and even
a very badly cracked case will not blow out. I have shot visibly cracked cases MANY times
in .45 ACP and .38 Spl with zero ill effect, other than the brass is tossed after that shot.

If you want to believe that, feel free and please ignore my comment, and there is absolutely
no way to prove what actually caused it at this late date. In my OPINION, if you really want
to understand what happened, think hard about the possibilities of human error making a
double charge, and look at what you need to be doing to avoid another one.

This was thrown out in a recent discussion of a blown up gun and I am a bit surprised
that this is blamed on "bad brass" or "old brass". I do not buy this story at all. I have shot
a lot of brass to the point that the headstamp is battered off - literally- and it just chugs
along fine, it does not get old and then blow out.

I have done ONE double charge, and observed a significant number like high single
digits, in 1911s, all in .45 ACP.

Also - as to the "joking comment" - a serious problem with typing for communication is
that we can't hear the tone of voice or see the grin on your face, so it is pretty critical
when you are posting something that has some "other than literal" intent that you
add a parenthetical comment or a nice emoticon. I use the :bigsmyl2: and :kidding:
all the time to make sure that someone knows when I am not being serious.

As to the particular post, I wondered if the guy was kidding, and dismissed it as some
sort of a nutball, and I think nobody really got the joke. A failure of the medium,
and we need to work on helping the reader to understand what we really mean.


Bill

[GabbyM]

Advertisement:

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$120 plus shipping. Handles do not fit in USPS FRB so it's shipped by weight. Mold and handles weigh 4.415 pounds. With packaging figure six pounds from 61938. Can email pics and mail a set of boolits for inspection.

[birch]

Everyone, I tried to write back on my post, but I only have dial-up and sometimes I cannot reply.

I thought that I made that comment with enough misinformation that no normal person would ever think that my load data would be correct. I put the "I would not even run a recoil spring" comment to reinforce my idiocy. Unfortunatly, alot is lost without facial expression involved. Also, I sometimes forget that not everyone understands my humor. Heck, even my wife is lost sometimes.

For the record, I am not a troll, and up until I started reading this thread, I didnt even know what a troll is. To those who were offended: I did not mean any malintent.

I trust nothing until I have done a thorough amount of research. I test, double test, and sometimes triple test load data with primary and secondary sources before I even think about developing a load. I think I even read somewhere that Castboolits does not take responsibility for any post, and they also urge people to use discretion when developing loads. However, I do admit that some people with half a brain might be tempted to try something on some persons advice without the research part of the equation. As such, i will make sure to stress any jokes or attempts at jokes with some sort of indicator.

Caveat !!! Please do not load up any .38 special loads without first researching from a primary document. In fact, I would not take anyone's reloading advice without checking with a respected load data sheet of some sort. If anyone who read this thread attempted to load with my data, please use the nearest bullet puller to salvage whatever boolit/j-word used or safely discard any and all loads. I would also suggest using a recoil spring in any semi-auto rifle or pistol. The recoil spring is very important. It stops the rearward motion of the bolt and greatly reduces unneccassary wear of the firearm.

To those who commented on my post!!--Please use a recoil spring and never exceed recommended reloading data. I am sorry if you considered using my data. Also, my father never considered me a mistake, and he knew the consequences before he ever had relations with my mother. In fact, they both wanted a child and made sure to time conception with their wants and desires of their intended offspring.

[williamwaco]

No offense intended, but IME, putting blown cases down to "old, much reloaded brass" rather than
a double charge is making an excuse for the unfortunate human error of double charging a case.
Normal loads in that case will not blow a case no matter how many times it is loaded, and even
a very badly cracked case will not blow out. I have shot visibly cracked cases MANY times
in .45 ACP and .38 Spl with zero ill effect, other than the brass is tossed after that shot.


Bill

I have commented frequently that I use brass until it splits. I do not count reloads.
I have split about 136,259 .38 special cases over the years.( Yes that is a joke. But just barely.)

Cases split for different reasons. Most split when they are fired. A few split when they are resized. A very few split when they are expanded and very, very few split when they are crimped.

When I remove a split case from the cylinder, it goes to the scrap brass bucket. If it splits during the reloading process, the split will be very small and I keep it and shoot it. ( I do relegate it to the plinkers box, not to the match box. )

I have done a great deal of accuracy testing with TC and S&Ws scoped and can testify that these split cases cannot be detected except by visual inspection. They do not leak gas, the obturate just like any other case. They do not cause flyers. In a good match load that shoots one inch at 25 yards, the split cases will land right smack in the same group.

That is a long winded way of saying I agree that you cannot attribute a blown case to old brass. Old brass will split but you will not know it until you eject the cartridge cases and inspect them visually.

See

http://reloadingtips.com/pages/case_failures.htm

For examples of what I am talking about

AND

an example of a .45ACP case split that I do consider dangerous.





.

[got_lead?]

Here's my 52. She grouped best with very light loads 2.3 grains of bullseye and 148 grain wc's. this load barely functions the action.

73610

I am trying some 120 grain boolits flush seated with good success. They have pretty low recoil impulse and don't always function the action. I am interested in conducting a few more experiments with them. The sweet spot so far is 2.7 grains of bullseye, which incidentally my snubby just loves, and will shoot almost as accurately as the 52. About 1.5 inches at 25 yards.

73611

Here's the snub


73612

[MtGun44]

Wow! That is superb accy. I have never had an opportunity to shoot or own
a M52, looks like I have missed out on a wonderful gun.

William -
As to the split brass, the only time I shoot it is if I discover it in .45 ACP after it
has run through the whole reloading process, and I will put it aside and load it
first up into the chamber because I am not sure of the crimp holding with
a split case. Never had a split go as far to the rear as that pic on
the 'reloading tips' page. In a low pressure round like .45 ACP, a split isn't
too much of an issue, so I will take the tiny/non-existent risk. With any sort
of a hot load - like the pistol magnums, not happening, I'll pull the round
down.

Bill

[Hardcast416taylor]

The experience I have with reloading for a S&W 52 is using Hornady FLAT nosed WC bullets seated just below the case mouth with a slight roll over crimp, 3.3 gr. of Red Dot powder and Winchester primers. A good ball park guess would be 8K rounds were loaded this way. The rounds were for my brother to practice with for Army Gold Comp. match shooting. Admitedly this from the `70`s, but the load still works great in this pistol system as well as other type pistols.Robert