Tap and die set.

[JeffinNZ]

Bought a metric/UNF tap and die set and received it today. Great range from 4x40 to 1/2x20 and metric from 3-12mm. Tried the 1/4x28 and what a disaster. Waaaaaay off spec and the die is so soft is got damaged on stainless steel. Tried the specs on some of the other components also and again just terrible. Taking it back tomorrow.

It was $100 for a 60 pce kit so not super expensive and I didn't expect top quality but to spec would be nice and hard enough to actually cut common material.

Will go to a more reputable supplier after returning it.

[Jeff Michel]

Were they carbon steel or high speed steel? Big performance difference, especially with tough stuff like stainless. What was the grade of stainless? I had the same problem with a dozen 10-24 taps from Hanson, everyone of them crumbled as soon as I got in about two threads. Turns out they weren't heat treated properly.

[smokeywolf]

You aren't going to get a set that comprehensive that is usable on stainless without shelling out $400.00 or better.
My favorite brands are:
Rieff and Nestor
Union
Cleveland
OSG

Greenfield used to be good but back in about 2001 they started using poor quality HS steel.

smokeywolf

[jmorris]

Yeah, Harbor Freights hammers will work under the right conditions but I have had buggers harder than their tap sets. I think they are just for children to play with.

[oldred]

Carbon steel or high speed steel are the usual two choices of material and carbon steel is what is used in cheaper sets. I know it's not officially meant to be this way but basically you can think of high speed steel taps/dies for cutting new threads and carbon steel for chasing, or re-threading, existing damaged threads. Sometimes you will see a brand proudly proclaiming HIGH carbon steel but that's nothing but a lame attempt at duping the buyer into believing he is buying something special, all carbon steel taps/dies are HIGH carbon steel! High carbon steel can certainly be hardened to a very high degree BUT the harder it is the more brittle it is and a balance must be struck between ultimate hardness and toughness while high speed steel is alloyed with other exotic type metals to attain both hardness and toughness. Carbon steel may be ok for softer mild steel work but when working with harder alloys such as gun parts or other high strength steels spend the extra money to get the high speed steel and you will not regret it!

[JeffinNZ]

Carbon steel best I can work out. The packaging is a shade light on details. Anyways, I take them back soon.

[10-x]

+1 for the Union and Cleveland. Might consider some German or Austrian mfg's too.

[bangerjim]

I have a full set of Craftsman chrome edge T&D's I bought way back in 1975. Still running strong. And are very high quality HSS. Too bad they do not make 'em like that anymore.

I have purchased quite a few taps made in Macedonia and Japan that are excellent quality. Ground threads in HSS. Just recently bought a full set of LEFT HAND taps from Macedonia and they are extremely sharp, ground threads, and HSS.

Ground threads are the key to clean cuts! CS T&D's at HF and other low end suppliers are for casual use by 5 thumbs weekend handymen! They work only (barely!) in mild steel CI, brass, and aluminum.....NOT SST! I have a certain set of threads I use in SST and I have solid carbide taps for those. I turn the rod threads on the quick change South Bend.

Rule of thumb (or middle finger): "if you make your living with it, don't trust Horrible Freight."

Also, if you are cutting in SST and having trouble, go up a tweak in the size of the drill to make tapping easier. (You will need a FULL set of number, fractional, and letter drills). Unless you are doing "gubmint" work, you rarely need 100% thread form. The extra room REALLY makes a difference!

Bottom line......don't waste your $$ on carbon steel T&D sets!

bangerjim 8-)

[JeffinNZ]

So I shouldn't have tried to cut SS with them. Fair enough. The supplier is 'testing' the hardness. I suspect a hard fight in order. The thing is if the dies are not up to SS then it would be prudent to state for "non ferrous only or nothing harder than mild steel" surely. We're not all seasoned machinists.

What annoyed me is when I returned the set the guys says "well they're Chinese so you can't expect too much". Fine, it the company really believes that why don't they say so on their site instead of just using it as an excuse? Cop out.

[country gent]

Worked in Stainless for years ( Tool maker in the food industry) Stainless in certain grades is a real pain, it is gummy, tough, wont break chips, Galls to chips, work hardens and will "spring". When tapping especially in Stainless you need a very good cutting lubricant. Break and clear chips frequently and be patient. Luckily we didnt have many threads in Stainless under 1/4". Even the quality OSG and Greenfield taps didnt last long in stainless. Black sulfar cutting oil worked really good. We had a cutting grease also Blind holes could be filled full with this and as the tap entered displacing the grease it pushed the chips out with it. On thru holes a "gun Tap" fedd the chips thru. Good taps cost more but last a long time if cared for. I once ran 600 ( thru holes ) 1/4 20 threads 3/8" thru in a drill press tapping head on a project with black oil and 1 tap ( was a greenfield). Hand tapping is harder. We would put the tap in a drill chuck and turn by hand using the spindle of the machine to keep it square when ever possible.

[smokeywolf]

Jeff, In actuality, 300 series stainless is not very hard; it is tough and has a fairly high tensile strength. 400 series stainless is a bit harder because of carbon content which allows it to be heat treated. When I'm tapping stainless I typically select a tap drill that will produce a 65% thread and if possible or available I reach for a TiN coated spiral point 2 or 3 flute tap.
As bangerjim mentioned, in stainless you only need a 60-65% thread. Plastic or thin cross-section metals are usually the only place you need a 100% thread.
A good example would be, if I have to tap a 1/4-20 thread in a piece of 316 stainless and that hole has a minimum thread depth equal to or greater than the diameter of the tap, I use a #5 drill. Your typical tap drill chart will recommend a tap drill that produces a 75% thread.

smokeywolf

[Norbrat]

The brand of taps & dies you may want to look for here in the antipodes is Sutton. They still manufacture in Australia, although exactly what they still do here and what is now made in China (what isn't?) is a bit unclear. At least their quality control is such that the tools are still OK.

Sutton also owns Frost, but I think Frost tools are aimed more at the home handyman market. Certainly the last Frost drill bit sets I bought were chinese made, but they are holding up quite well.

It is also often better to just buy the ones you need, rather than a set. I doubt I have used 15% of the set I've got, but I've still needed to get indvidual taps, especially for gun work due to the uncommon sizes used in this game.

[quasi]

being in New Zealand, you could look for old P&N tap and dies sets, they were made in Australia and are good quality. Goliath is a good British make.