Need help. Leading issue since 2004.

[littlejack]

OK fellas and ladies.
I bought a Model 57 Smith & Wesson in 2004. In case any of you are not familiar with the model, it is a N frame .41 magnum. Kinda like Dirty Harry's 29, except the bullets got wet and shrank.
Anyway, it has leaded with all cast since the day I started shooting cast in it. The latest boolits I have been shooting are the NEI, SSK design boolit, weighing at 300 grains sized and wet. These boolits drop from the mold at .412+.
When I size them, they measure .411+. I drove six separate sized and lubed boolits through each chamber/throat,
and they swaged at .410+. Last week, I slugged the bore with two of the sized and lubed slugs. One all the way through, and out the forcing cone. The second, into the muzzle and below about .10, then pulled it out. They both read about .4085.
So why is this bore/groove leading badly?
My go to alloy is coww + 2%, or very close to it.
I have shot hundreds commercial 215 grain swc's. My go to boolit is the Lyman 220 grain 410459. I have shot
hundreds of the Lyman 240 grain rn. My lube is the 50/50 standard.
One would think, that with this tight of a bore, there would be no way it would lead up.
Any suggestions, opinions, experienced guesses, or SWAG's.
Jack

[454PB]

Does "50/50 standard" mean Alox and beeswax?

You don't mention load info....what powders and weights?

Your throat and bore measurements look right, did you use a micrometer?

[littlejack]

454:
Yes, the 50/50 is alox/beeswax.
My (used to) go to load for the commercial 215 swc's, and my 410459 swc cast for plinking, was 8 grains of Unique. Now, I have switched to 9 grains of Herco.
For a hunting load with the same Lyman 410459, my powder/charge is H-110 / 20 grains respectively.
Now, with the SSK 300 grain boolit; last week I shot about 40 rounds. I started at 16.2 grains of H-110, and went up to 18.7 grains. The bore was a complete/leaded mess, as always.
Today, I shot 30 rounds, all with 18 grains of H-110. The bore is a complete mess again.
Jack

[waksupi]

Try a softer alloy.

[littlejack]

OOPS, forgot one. Yes, I used a Mititoyo digital mic.
I checked a couple of Sierra match bullets with it. 308, measured .30825 average of 5.
Then Sierra .224 52 grain match. These mic'd at .22425 average.

[littlejack]

waksupi, my boolits scratch purdy easy with my fingernail.

[uscra112]

Where is the lead? In the throat, beyond the throat, near the muzzle? Have you ever gotten it completely lead free? Even a little lead in the grooves will pick up more. I've used the old trick of shooting a cylinderful of jacketed bullets through my N-frame .357 a few times, then clean with copper solvent so there's no copper to collect lead later. (That one in the end needed lapping to clear up a tight throat.)

[littlejack]

The bore is leading from stem to stern. That is the reason I slugged the bore all the way through, from the muzzle and out the forcing cone. Then just the muzzle, to see if the two slug dimensions were close. They were, so no restriction at the forcing cone.
Yes, I start with a lead free bore at each shooting session.

[44man]

How did you slug the bore with the boolits without a sledge hammer? You say you can scratch them????
The .41 is a high pressure caliber and it sounds like boolit skid that opens gas channels.
I would do two things, water drop and age the boolits and get rid of Alox lube. Try LBT soft or Felix.
Leading is a thing hard to figure, I get none and don't clean a gun for years, my friends .41 does not lead. I just water drop WW boolits but have shot 50-50 WW and pure after oven hardening to max with no leading.
I believe in harder (tougher) but it is a fact some soft boolits clean out leading but I lose my accuracy.
Do the SSK boolits have any lube grooves? I had a few molds and just sizing would remove half the groove depth.
I DID NOT want to do this but cleaned my bore, at least two years and hundreds of rounds shot and 4 deer kills. I used a tight jag, Butch's Bore Shine and patch. I had to beat it through the bore. The left patch was the second one.
Water dropped WW, PB boolits shot near max. Felix lube.
Now you see why I can't explain leading! 72734

[WARD O]

I have been having pretty much the exact same problem - mine is a 657 and it just doesn't want to stop leading. I have meausred the throats with minus pin gauges and all are a snug .410. I have driven lead slugs thru the bore and then matched them to the cylinder throats. They drop thru with very little or no pressure so the throats are larger than the bore.

I have used a variety of bullets and loads - some home cast and lubed and some purchased sized .410 and .411 - hard and soft - driven slow and fast.

Recently I noticed the bore did seem to have a tight spot where it is constricted by the frame so I have run about 100 fire lapping rounds through the gun. A cylinder full of lead bullets still left deposits in the barrel so perhaps more FL is in order?

That is where I am at for the moment with this S&W 41 mag.

Sorry if I'm invading your thread littlejack but maybe we can help each other a bit here.

ward

[littlejack]

44:
Good to hear from you.
As for slugging, I use a sized and lubed SSK 300 grain slug with some added Lee Liquid Alox. I set the nose down on the muzzle. There is a short bore section that just fits inside to get things started evenly. I pounded it down to the crown with my rawhide mallet that I use for a sprue knocker. Then I drove the boolit the rest of the way through with a dowel. Not hard at all actually.
The SSK, has two lube grooves.
Those patches are impressive. I probably couldn't even drive a jag and patch down the bore right now, it being so fouled with lead.
I will try water dropping a new batch of booits, and fire for effect. Water dropping is one method I have not tried in all my cast years.
Thank you for the input.
Regards
Jack

[littlejack]

WARDO:
No worries sir. Maybe we can get these leading problems ironed out with the help from some of the members here.
What LUBE are you using?
Regards
Jack

[Larry Gibson]

Who's "50/50" lube?

What powder/load?

Larry Gibson

[littlejack]

Hey Larry:
The loads are listed on the #3 post.
The 50/50 lube has been different makes, RCBS, Javalina, Garr. OH yea, that black
elephant poop that Lyman used to sell years ago.

[44man]

44:
Good to hear from you.
As for slugging, I use a sized and lubed SSK 300 grain slug with some added Lee Liquid Alox. I set the nose down on the muzzle. There is a short bore section that just fits inside to get things started evenly. I pounded it down to the crown with my rawhide mallet that I use for a sprue knocker. Then I drove the boolit the rest of the way through with a dowel. Not hard at all actually.
The SSK, has two lube grooves.
Those patches are impressive. I probably couldn't even drive a jag and patch down the bore right now, it being so fouled with lead.
I will try water dropping a new batch of booits, and fire for effect. Water dropping is one method I have not tried in all my cast years.
Thank you for the input.
Regards
Jack
Good, try things. It can be such a small thing that you don't expect.
You see what I get and I get twisted shorts trying to help with leading. My safe is full of revolvers almost never cleaned. I do keep the cylinder hole and pin clean with fresh STP, also the ratchet to prevent wear. I look in the cylinders and see black--OK, nothing to worry about. Stainless guns, no moisture problems in my basement or safe. I average 43% moisture. Those with rust worries MUST clean.
Leading does baffle me. Something has to be changed so never keep doing the same over and over. When someone has a barrel full I am lost. It just should not be. I sure do not blame the gun.
Some say softer---well, maybe but I have shot to super hard of 30 BHN without leading and also boolits way under throat size but at groove size.
I have posted about things that can cause leading but if conditions are met and leading happens anyway, what a pickle! It is like looking at my dog to see if she has to go potty. She can't talk!

[454PB]

I'm with 44man on this.....try a harder boolit. Everything you're reporting says this gun should shoot well and with no leading.

In the past, I've owned S&W revolvers that took a while to "break in". When that happens, I shoot a few hundred linotype boolits through them, or even jacketed:shock:

[littlejack]

OK fellas. I'm going to cast up and water drop enough to check for leading.
Thank you all for your input and experience.
Jack

[Forrest r]

I'd look at 2 things:

Pull a loaded bullet & see what it measures after its been loaded.
Seat the bullets out further until you have to use a tad/little bit of pressure to get them to sit all the way down in the cylinders.

You've done/tried too many things with different bullets/powders/lubes/etc, it's something mechanical with your reloading die/expander setup. Or your chambers might be ok at the end of them but be .415 where the bullet starts. That will cause bullet skidding & bullet deformation which in turn allows the bullet to hit the forcing cone at an angle and then bad things happen the whole way down the bbl.

I had a 357 do the samee thing your describing every time I put 38's in it. Also had a 44spl do the same thing, in both cases I moved the bullets out until they would just sit flat in the cylinders & the leading issues went away.

Don't know if this helps but good luck. Hope you get it figured out.

[Larry Gibson]

Pull a loaded bullet & see what it measures after its been loaded.

I'd do that also. If the bullets still measure .411+ then I'd consider sizing at .410.

I've been shooting cast in .41s since the mid '70s. Only time I had throat leading was with poor alloy (sometimes we all get a "bad" batch of COWWs that even adding the tin won't cure), insufficient lube or trying to push a PB'd cast too hard. I've used the same .410 H&I die for all my cast .41 bullets and it sizes at .410. I have used them in numerous M57s, a couple M58s, a converted M28 and several Rugers. I still use the .410 sizer for the cast bullets in my Ruger Bisley.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

(Pull a loaded bullet & see what it measures after its been loaded.)
I go along with this 100%. The boolit should be tough enough to open the brass when seated, not have the brass size down the boolit.

[454PB]

If the boolits are being sized down when seated, the solution is either an "M" die...or harder boolits.

[littlejack]

OK fellas.
I went out this morning and cast about 40 boolits water quenched. I'm talkin "ice water". With my "thumbnail " test, there was a definite difference in hardness.

I loaded a dummy round also this morning. Everything the same except no primer and no powder. I used my kinetic hammer to remove the boolit. No, I didn't beat it till it slammed into the bottom of the tube. It broke from the crimp, then I gently tapped it until it dropped to the bottom. OK, now for dimensions: The boolit was at least as big as any of the 6 throats, and bigger than most. So, the boolit is sizing down a "smidgon", but not much. With the groove diameter being .4085, there is a little wriggle room for swaging. All is good.

Forrest:
As for the boolit length, the crimp groove is situated so that the boolits sit .070 below the face of the cylinder. With the heavier recoil of these big boolits, they are still being shaken loose and moving forward. The 5th and 6th shots are moving forward out of the case, to where I am going to have to cinch down on the crimp a little. If that doesn't work, I will have to polish the expander down a tad.
So far, so good fellas. I appreciate all of your input. I will get to the range and test these loads for leading, and velocity as soon as possible, and give a report.
Jack

[454PB]

I'm sure you are aware that those quenched boolit need to age for a while before they reach full hardness.

[Larry Gibson]

You might size to .410 to avoid the throats "sizing" them.

Larry Gibson

[littlejack]

I have the boolits all loaded up. How long does it take to get "full hardness"? It seems that I read somewhere that 10 days to 2 weeks is sufficient, is that correct?
Larry:
I did not realize that sizing down to .410 prior to loading was an option. I thought that .0005 over throat size was almost a perfect fit in a perfect world. I thought that the boolits would get gas cutting if the diameter was smaller than the throats?
I do not want to do to many changes at one time, and NOT know what effect each had on the leading problem. I do have high expectations in the water quenched boolits.
I don't know if I can stand the strain of waiting for full hardness to take effect though.
Jack

[Larry Gibson]

Going with your measurements; Sized bullets at .411+, cylinder throats at .410+ and groove diameter at .4085. That bullet is getting sized (swaged) in stages about .003 in a very short distance. Consider that the harder you make those bullets the more resistence to sizing down they give when entering the forcing cone. Very possible the gas cutting causing the leading is occuring at peak psi just as the base of the bullet clears the cylinder and before the base of the bullet is fully into the bore. There is a lot of room in the area around the bullet and in the forcing cone for the gas to cut.

Sizing the bullet down to throat dimeter and casting softer will lesson the resistance the bullet has entering the bore. That will lengthen the time/pressure curve also so peak psi occurs with the bullet in the bore. A "perfect fit in a perfect world" is what works. Unfortunately many think revolver bullets need to be "oversize" of the cylinder throats to avoid leading and for best accuracy. The fact is that sometimes that is true but sometimes it isn't. I have a .44 magnum with a .429 goove diameter bore and .433 - .434 cylinder throats. I went for years shooting 5,000+ magnum loads with 2400 and 4227 with the 429421's sized at .429 with excellent accuracy. Then I read in the same gun rags that the bullets "must fit the throats" that started all this "fit" idea. So I got a larger sizer, lapped out the 429421 so the bullets dropped at .4334 and loaded them up with the same alloy, same lube, same load and guess what? I got leading and poor accuracy.......so I got another mould (RCBS 44-250-K) and cast them with the same alloy, lube them the same and loaded them with the same load but the bullets were sized .429.....and guess what? No leading and excellent accuracy again. I've had the same thing happen with .45 ARs and .45 Colts and one .41 that had .412 throats and a .4095 groove diameter bore.....it was a M58. In all cases when I sized to or .001 - .002 over groove diameter the leading went away and accuracy was excellent. My current M1917 has a .451 groove barrel and .454 .455 throats. The best accuracy with no leading comes from .452 sized 190 - 205 gr SWCs. Accuracy with .445 sized cast bullets is dismal.........go figure.....

Larry Gibson

[454PB]

You'll go nuts trying to "think" this through. Let those quenched boolits age 2 weeks, then give 'em the REAL test.

[littlejack]

Damn, it's gonna kill me to wait 14 days for those boolits to ripen.
Larry, what you said makes perfect sense, BUT, The reason that my .410 sizer die sizes to .411+, is that I lapped it out a few years ago because of the leading problem. So now it looks like I will be going back to square one.
If I have no luck with the water quenched boolits, I will get a size die at .410, and try quenched boolits.
Thank you all again for all your help.
Jack

[Mk42gunner]

Have you recovered any bullets to see if there is gas cutting or skidding?

Robert

[littlejack]

No sir, I have not.

[wellfedirishman]

Have you considered using straight wheel weight lead, with Johnson Paste Wax/Alox/Mineral Spirits (45/45/10) lube? I use this in all my pistols/rifles and never have any leading issue in any gun.

It sounds like your bullets are too soft if you can scratch them with a fingernail.

[44man]

Watch the "M" die. It can reduce tension and cause more boolit pull. It has a use but not with recoil or heavy boolits.
Larry has found the same thing I have and is why "FIT" to the cylinder is not that important. Over throats does not help a thing and can make it worse. The boolit should push through gently but it is not the final answer. I too shoot smaller with accuracy, .430" boolits from .4324" throats, .430" groove. The range for my .44 is .430" to .432" depending on my mold and I have even shot .429" with no changes. The best fit might be .0005" under throat. I still question how important it is from the goofy stuff I see.

[cbrick]

Yep, waiting a couple of weeks to shoot them would be tough. The amount of time needed to reach highest BHN after quenching depends on the percentage of Sb, the higher the percentage the quicker they harden, the lower the slower they harden. With WW's it's safe to assume 2% Sb so at least a week.

I'm no fan of shooting diamonds, max hardness isn't needed and can be counter productive but quenching should give you around 17-18 BHN and should be good with the pressure of the 41 and H-110. In your case I'll go along with 44man and suggest quenching them.

Larry is also correct about sizing, with the dimensions you have with your revolver I would size to a mild snug fit in the throats. If they need to be tapped through they are too tight, falling thru is too loose.

Adding 2% Sn to your WW can also be a huge benefit.

The only other thing's I can think of if leading continues is a rough throats, forcing cone and or bore. Several years ago I bought a bore scope and thought it was an extravagant toy but it has proven invaluable in helping to diagnose leading, accuracy and even if the bore is really clean. If you think your bore is clean don't be too sure until you look at it from the inside at 25X magnification. Another thing is what does the beginning of the rifling just past the forcing cone look like? Is it a gentle taper to full groove diameter or does it start abruptly? I've seen a few revolvers that made ya think what could the factory have been thinking, re-cutting the forcing cone could be a possible remedy. Don't forget the factories think only in terms of them ugly brown store bought bullets.

Rick

[Tar Heel]

Being a 41 Mag fan myself and shooting lots of these, I agree with 44MAN. My primary alloy is straight WW metal, cast at high temperature, and drop quenched. I use 50/50 as bullet lube and have never had any leading issues. I shoot Lyman, RCBS, Lee, and SSK (NEI) bullets in both M57's, a Ruger Blackhawk and the TC barrel. I would suggest high temp casting with WW alloy (be sure it doesn't have zinc in it) and drop quenching from the mold. As mentioned before, 50/50 works just fine at the highest velocities. I size to .410. As a side note, I use the same alloy and lube in the 411-JDJ and move the 340gr bullet to 1800fps with no leading.

[44MAG#1]

You will find that 24 to 36 hours is going to give you nearly as hard as the bullets will get.
Waiting longer will maybe increase WATER QUENCHED hardness maybe a smidge is all. Air cooled WW is a maybe 2 week wait.
I never wait more than 36 hours with water quenched and testing will prove this as far as hardness is concerned. No use adding more to the deal than needed.

[littlejack]

44MAG#1:
Now, that is good news. Waiting two weeks, will definitely be more strain than I can bare. There is no tellin what I may do with all that free time on my hands.
I'm getting some great experienced advice, and I appreciate it all fellas. Just give me time to utilize some of it. First, I want to try the quenched boolits. Then, I will get a .410 sizer to squeeze the boolits to just slip through the throats.
I may go out and test the boolits this coming Tuesday. That will be the first day the range is open after the weekend.
Jack

[44man]

I never bother with time much. I cast and put on lube, run through a Lee and put them in a box. Next batch I might not lube for weeks or months. I will dump my fresh boolits in the box with the old ones, I defy anyone to see them shoot different.
I have loaded right away or wait a day or a year. All needed is to keep a boolit hard enough to resist brass sizing. BHN means nothing at all and if a boolit is 18 and another 22, they go in the same hole to 100 yards. It is why I don't look for ice water or a perfect timing to drop in water, waste of time.
If you lube, size and load, they keep getting harder before you shoot them anyway. Just maintain boolit size.
I grit my teeth over the tight restrictions always posted like 2 seconds too long before dumping, etc, it just does not matter. When you start tying your shorts in knots, you are 1000 miles overboard.
When you measure BHN, weigh and measure every boolit you should be cutting the grass! Either that or you are hiding from the little woman! :kidding:
I can shoot air cooled without any leading, I just get a few fliers with every group at 50 yards, something you will not see at 25 yards. Every caliber I shoot has lead to water dropping for best accuracy but no harder is needed even in the .454 and .500's. Plain WW's. I make a little harder now and then, starting with WW's and a little antimony and tin added but it will only gain me about 1/4" at 50 or 100. Not worth the time. Most measure BHN the same as WW's alone and it takes more work to get them to measure harder.
A BHN tester is like a chronograph, a toy that will not improve anything.

[Tar Heel]

I agree with all in previous post from 44man EXCEPT the comment about the Chrono. A chrono has been a valuable tool for me to establish load consistency via low Standard Deviation. It has also been a valuable tool to work up loads and establish loads for the 411-JDJ. A chronograph is a great tool and frankly....fun to use. Shooting one is a royal pain but heck....the results are worth it.

I have bullets that were heat treated 24 years ago and some 2 days ago. They all shoot just fine. Probably shoot better than I can......

[44man]

I feel trying for low SD's, etc instead of what is at the target is less important. I have worked to a 1 fps difference with a pattern at the target that would make a shotgun blush.
The thing has nothing at all to do with a match to twist, spin stability, boolit alloy, boolit choice, powder choice or the gun itself. It has the very least to do with finding accuracy. It reduces you to look at one thing only. I keep looking at mine for the statement "your boolit lube is wrong." :bigsmyl2::bigsmyl2:

[44MAG#1]

To the best I can read no one said to make a chore out of loading 44man.
I rarely am concerned as to how long I wait before I shoot WQ bullets. At one time I did wait as I didn't know any different but I learned better just like you didn't start out knowing everything in reloading. You learned it over a period of time. Just like me and others.
But I think you will agree some like to make a chore out of everything they do so they can have something to talk about to their peers.
A guy at the range comes to mind. He really likes to chatter at the range. Telling all the steps he does to get accuracy from his custom rifles.
I am like a simpleton. No fuss no muss.

[44man]

To the best I can read no one said to make a chore out of loading 44man.
I rarely am concerned as to how long I wait before I shoot WQ bullets. At one time I did wait as I didn't know any different but I learned better just like you didn't start out knowing everything in reloading. You learned it over a period of time. Just like me and others.
But I think you will agree some like to make a chore out of everything they do so they can have something to talk about to their peers.
A guy at the range comes to mind. He really likes to chatter at the range. Telling all the steps he does to get accuracy from his custom rifles.
I am like a simpleton. No fuss no muss.
Yes, I agree. It is just not that hard and simple seems to work just fine. Each gun needs different with the revolver only needing a little different. If I or any good shooter went into detail, it MIGHT take half a page. The hardest thing I can do is to make guys stop all the nit picking stuff and relax.
If you look at my load book for a revolver you would laugh. It is 2 lines---YEP, 2 lines because the book is small and I print big.
I do NOT have a book for each mold either, ALL cast the same.
The truth is, to make a revolver shoot would take one post but then how would we all be in touch? I like my friends to talk to and discuss all things. However, I am the laziest, slowest reloader ever. The work was to eliminate junk, make it easier and toss out the stuff that never did any good. Then your load book will be 2 lines and if you print smaller, 1 line.

[RobS]

Damn, it's gonna kill me to wait 14 days for those boolits to ripen.
Larry, what you said makes perfect sense, BUT, The reason that my .410 sizer die sizes to .411+, is that I lapped it out a few years ago because of the leading problem. So now it looks like I will be going back to square one.
If I have no luck with the water quenched boolits, I will get a size die at .410, and try quenched boolits.
Thank you all again for all your help.
Jack

You can also put them in the oven at 190-200 degrees for 2 hours (leave them in the oven to cool) to speed up the aging. I do this all the time and even anneal some of my boolits down to whatever BHN hardness I want just by adjusting the temperatures in my little toaster convection oven. Make sure you have a good thermometer as some oven temperature dials may not be what it really is inside the oven. Heat treating at 190-200 degrees will only speed the aging and will not anneal (soften) the intended boolit BHN. After the boolits cool I have sized and loaded in the same day. I've not shot them the same day I guess its because I typically don't have the time to do the casting, speed aging, reloading, and shooting all in one day. I also do this with air cooled WW boolits.

[littlejack]

OK fellas, I went to the range today and here are the results. First, I did get leading, but not as much. But, it was to much compared to how it should have looked. Second, I Chrony'd the first 10 shots, and here are the numbers.
All cases were R-P, and partial sized only.

1. 1140
2. 1153
3. 1151
4. 1142
5. 1112
6. 1107
7. 1146
8. 1136
9. 1118
10. 1109
Avg. fps was 1132, ES was 45.94, and the SD was 18.02. Not very good numbers for the last two.
Now, if you will look at shot #6, and shot #10, you will notice that these were the last shots fired in each string. # 6 being the last shot of the first 6 rounds, and #10, being the last of the second string of 4 shots to total ten shots. They are also the slowest of the shots of both strings. What do you make of that.
I did notice later, that the bullet pull from recoil was there, but not as bad as my previous shooting session a couple weeks ago. I DID tighten the crimp some on these latest loads. Maybe the slow velocity was from the bullet being pulled out, and there being MORE case capacity, equaling less pressure?
So, now I have to either try sizing the boolit down to .410, to prevent the boolits from being swaged down by the throats, or change out my boolit lube.
I believe I will try sizing the boolits to .410, as I think I may have a Lee push through .410 sizer.
Any comments or opinions welcome.
OH yea, I believe that the leading was sproutiong at the forcing cone, and getting worse as the boolits traveled down the bore.
Regards
Jack

[Mk42gunner]

Okay, somehow I missed the fact that you are shooting 300 grain boolits. (I really need to slow down and make sure I comprehend what I am reading).

While I am no expert when it comes to loading heavy boolits in magnum revolvers; I do have a few questions that may help shed some light on the subject.

What brand of reloading dies are you using? What is the I.D. of a case after sizing? How much are you expanding the neck? I tend to think case neck tension has more to do with preventing bullet pull than the crimp; but I have been wrong before.

Robert

[44man]

Okay, somehow I missed the fact that you are shooting 300 grain boolits. (I really need to slow down and make sure I comprehend what I am reading).

While I am no expert when it comes to loading heavy boolits in magnum revolvers; I do have a few questions that may help shed some light on the subject.

What brand of reloading dies are you using? What is the I.D. of a case after sizing? How much are you expanding the neck? I tend to think case neck tension has more to do with preventing bullet pull than the crimp; but I have been wrong before.

Robert
This is true. Crimp is just an aid, not a solution.
Crimping too hard can also bulge the brass away from the boolit.

[littlejack]

Well fellas, I went to the range with another batch of loaded rounds yesterday (Saturday). These were water quenched as before, but sized in my Lee .410 push-through sizer. I mic'd them after sizing and they read from .4097 to .4103. I don't know why the discrepancies in the measurements but that's what it is. The boolits started leading from the first cylinder full. I had 39 rounds loaded, and shot all of them. The bore was leaded, but not as bad as with the first batch of water quenched boolits, and a LOT less than the air cooled boolits.
Now that I have tried the water quenched boolits at .411 diameter AND the water quenched boolits at
.410 +/-, I will try a different lube.
One of the early replies, stated that I should get rid of the 50/50 lube (50% beeswax/50% Alox) I was using. The poster stated that he used LBT lube with good success. I don't want to buy a bunch of different lubes to find out which one (if any) works better than the 50/50 lube.
I will gladly pay for a small sample of different lubes from you fellas, and pay the freight on said lube. I can finger lube the boolits well enough to see how it works with my cast boolits. I would appreciate all offers.
Regards to all.
Jack
PS: Happy Fathers Day

[Forrest r]

I'd load around 12 to 18 of those bullets but load them backwards (base out/nose in case). Do tests on the seating depth until you get to where you have to push (minor force with thumb) the rounds down into the chambers to get the bullets to seat all the way in the chambers.

Doing this will take any side to side play out of the bullet as it goes down & out the cylinder & into the forcing cone.

What you're describing is a classic case of bullet skid.

If you think it's your bullet lube put a heavy coat of johnson's paste wax on them after you do your traditional sizing/lube & let it dry before you load them.

[schreibwy]

I solved this problem in my model 29 by rolling around my lubed bullets in Lee liquid Alox. The problem I believe is that your bullets maybe too hard and keeping their lube in the bullet grooves.

[454PB]

How quickly were these boolits sized after casting?

If you wait too long to size them, the sizing process re-softens them.

[littlejack]

Forrest, I took one of the boolits sized in my .410 Lee push through die, and slid it through each of the chambers. The boolit would slide all the way through with very slight pressure from me and I could feel each of the driving bands rub as they went out the front end. So, I do not believe there is not any side to side play. Before I sized them smaller in the LPT die, they were even a smidgon tighter/centered in the throats.

454:
I sized the boolits within an hour of casting/quenching them.

I will try using JPW, and some LLA on them after sizing/lubing. Then shoot them in a couple days.
The leading is starting at the forcing cone, and smearing/carried down the bore. The bore is just like a
mirror inside.
As stated earlier, I sent the handgun back to S&W in about 1999 and they cut a new
forcing cone and set the barrel back. It did lead before I sent it back though.

CORRECTION: I bought this revolver in 1974, and it has leaded ever since. I don't know how I came up
with 2004 on my original post heading???????
I appreciate all of the tips fellas.
Jack

[DrBill33]

Had a similar situation with my .44RemMag, SuperBlackHawk. Went to a gas checked mould and cast at BHN of 16. Problem solved for me.

[Forrest r]

Why I'm suggesting you turn some of the bullets around is that the chambers are tapered & putting the widest part of the bullet in the smallest part of the chamber takes a lot of things out of the picture.

Pushing a bullet thru by hand & letting 35,000psi push the same bullet/chamber combo is 2 different things.

It sounds to me like your bullet is skidding at an angle into the forcing cone. That will deform the bullet, shave/deposit lead & leave lead buildup/streaking down the bbl. The more shots, the more leading/streaking.

If it was me I'd turn the bullets backward & load the far enough out that there was only 5/1000th's of clearance until the end of the cylinders. Hopefully it would take some force to push the ammo into the cylinders all the way to be able to have the pistol function. Then I'd shoot 1 round off & open the cylinder & look at the forcing cone with a magnifying glass or a jewelers loop to look for any leading/bullet hitting on 1 side/lead shaving/etc. Then close it up & shot another, check then another & check until I shot a cylinder full.

Starting the bullets out at the end of the cylinders will eliminate any slop/play in them & tell you if the cylinders are lining up with the bbl.

The only other thing that I could think of the check is the bbl right at where it screws into the frame. It might be tighter there (thread lock) & that will do the same thing you are describing.

Good luck

[Messy bear]

Did you say what primers you are using?

[littlejack]

I am using Winchester LP.

[MGySgt]

How soon does the leading start??

6 rounds?
12 rounds?

It really sounds as if your lube is a great part of your issue.

[got_lead?]

This is just my opinion, but driving a 300 grain boolit at 1150 fps from a 41 tells me that your loads are generating a tad more than 14,000 CUP. I'm guessing your
loads are probably approaching the 30,000 CUP neighborhood. When I load this to this level, a coww would smear all the way down the bore. Increasing the bhn up a bit might better match the ultimate compression e strength of your boolit to the pressures you must be running. You might try adding a bit of Lino to cast up some boolits around 18 to 20 something bhn and see how they do. You could also try lighter loads in the 800 fps neighborhood for your coww boolits.

Good luck

Davic

[got_lead?]

I hate typing with an IPhone.

David

[Messy bear]

I am using Winchester LP.

I agree with lead. Could be over 30000 lb.

[littlejack]

The leading starts on the first cylinder full, if not on the first shot.
I do have some linotype, I may mix up a batch of ww's W/lino and see what happens.
My go to load over the years, is the Lyman 410459 boolit from acww's. My load for decades was 8 grains of Unique, for approximately 1000 fps. I have switched to 9 grains of Herco, for about the same velocity. These have always leaded also.
Jack

[armexman]

HA ha ha, I traded away my M57 for a CZ-550 in 9.3X62. Most heartfelt and regretable(?) decision I've ever made; still makes me cry. But I love my 9.3X62!!!
On to the OP's concerns. I still have a beautiful and shootable NMBK in 41Mag. I shoot LBT's 220WFN and 250WFN all day long with out leading and no gas-checks on the 250, without an ounce of leading. Why?
I fire-lapped the revolver in the beginning for consistency based on the advice of a person whom shoots 425 PB in a 475 Linebaugh at ~1400FPS!
My throats all measure .411, my bore .409 from stern to tip and the boolits fall out of all lapped molds at .412 (Basically one consistent "squirt"). I do not use gas-checks or hardened boolits, the alloy is all batched at 15BHN. Like Mr. 44 Man KISS. Last time I cleaned the bore was when Mr. Christ (My Saviour) was "knee high to a grasshopper".
My point. LJ keep it simple and read Mr. Smith's book;););) God put him here on earth for a very good reason!! (Careful, don't judge the man). Muchas Gracias.