Food for thought

[Prospector Howard]

New here so hi all. Looks like a lot of good info here with like minded shooters. I've been reloading and casting for the better part of 40 years, swaging .223 bullets from spent .22 cases for about a dozen (I'm no expert but I've leaned a few things). The dies for .223 that I started with I made myself with the help of a machinist friend (reverse engineered from another friends dies). At the time I just wanted to see if I could do it. Nowadays it's really coming in handy for obvious reasons. About 3 years ago I bought a small metal lathe and ventured into other calibers. After reading quite a bit through the swaging section, one thing I didn't notice, was a good discussion on the importance of the derim die punch size, and making sure the top edge is slightly rounded (not sharp). This is one thing I've really paid attention to because of the safety factor. I've noticed that a majority of members that have commented, believe that in order to make good .223 bullets that the rim has to be ironed out completely flat. When I first started, I thought this was important too. After awhile I realized that it's just not the case. The punches I started with were just fat enough to iron the rim out flat, but every once in awhile I'd get a "push through". I'm sure others have experienced this also. I started thinking wow, what if I didn't punch through completely but weakened the base and had a slight tear that I didn't notice by having to put excessive pressure to push it through the derim die. What if it was weakened enough that I shot the base through with the core, leaving the jacket in the bore. That would be my biggest nightmare. I immediately made some new punches that were smaller diameter, and that made a huge difference; much easier to derim, I haven't had a "push through" since, it puts much less stress on my press. A thread back in December showed that a member actually did this. There was a good discussion about what happened, but not why the base would have been weakened enough to get pushed through with the core when fired. I would bet the derim punch helped cause the problem for one or more reasons. With the punch smaller in diameter I get that little indented line around the bottom about 1/16" up from the bottom, but that's what I want to see. It gives me peace of mind knowing that I didn't have to put excessive pressure on it to get it through the die. I even went so far as to make a small extension out of brass rod to finish pushing the case through, instead of having the next case push the previous one out. It takes more pressure to push two at once. Probably being a little paranoid here, but it can't hurt. As far as accuracy goes , my testing shows absolutely no difference; so why push it. Two other quick things I figured on that seemed important to me. First, when I made my original set of dies; I measured 10 or so different bullets from various manufacturers and they measured anywhere from .2235 to .2240. I went on the small side at just under .2235 so I knew the bullet diameter wouldn't be an issue, and in case the die wore a little over time. No two guns are made with the same bore diameter, and I figured the brass jackets with a higher zinc content are going to be a little harder than commercial copper jackets. These bullets were never intended to be match quality for my use. If I could shoot groups that I could cover with a 50 cent piece, and make it so I could spend the afternoon smacking the heck out of some steel targets at will without breaking the bank; that's good enough for me. I never got any better groups than that with 55 gr fmj's anyway. The last thing is, I try to stay away from Remington cases, they are thinner and seem more brittle than others. My favorite cases are Federal-- thicker and softer. Anyway, the main thing is you don't have to push the envelope to make great shooting bullets. Hopefully I didn't ruffle too may feathers on my first post. I'll shut up now.

[Cane_man]

shut up? you just got started... let me be the first to welcome you to CB, you will fit right in here, nobody short on opinions or advice here...

i like what you are doing and i have similar philosophy in terms of keeping stresses down on my press because i use a reloading press, and my swaged bullets dont need to be perfect... also, i like the fun of making my own dies at home instead of buying them retail...

but i would really like to know a few things if you dont mind:

what is the diameter of your derim punch, and the ID of the derim die to get them the way you describe?

did you make your own point forming die, and if so how was it done?

[R.Ph. 380]

I'll second the welcome. You have so many more years of experience at swaging, we can profit by mining your knowledge. So speak up and let us try to shoot down or gratefully adopt the gems you have gleaned over the years. Some of us (me) are just getting into swaging and need all the help I can get. So nice to meet you Prospector Howard and don't be shy, just speak up.

Bill

[customcutter]

PH,
Welcome aboard, I just joined a few weeks ago. Been reloading for years, and saw a video a few years ago about swaging bullets. I can't justify the dies, but I do own a lathe, couple of milling machines, surface grinder, etc, etc. So I've started trying to figure out how to build my own dies. Been under the weather for the last week with sinus infection and went back to the doctor today. Now I've got bronchitis also, but at least he put me on some stronger meds plus gave me some meds to help with the coughing and breathing. Already feeling better, so hopefully I'll be back in the garage tomorrow. I'll be looking for the answers to Canes questions.

CC

[Utah Shooter]

Welcome!

[Lizard333]

Welcome aboard!

Good info hear. Nice to see some info from someone that's been doing it a while.

Funny, I'm like you, I prefer the federal cases, as they seem to be thicker. You'll find others stay away from them like the plague.

Do you sort your cases by weight? I have noticed with the federals, there spears to be two different weights. 9.3 and 10.2. This is approximate. Give or take a tenth grain or two. This gives me a little more control over the final product.

[Prospector Howard]

Cane man, Right now they come out of the derim die right close to .2215, and the derim punch I've settled on is .189 for use with Federal cases or if I use some CCI which is rare. If I were to use Remington or Winchester cases I'd use a little bigger one. I made 4 total, .189, .190, .191, and .192. It's good to have a few different sizes to test and see what works the best for you. I just use short flute 6" drill bits and cut the shank off for the punch part. They come in a lot of different sizes, including wire gauge sizes. As far as the point form die, that is the tricky one isn't it. This is where knowing a good machinist came in handy. He had more tools, reamers, and burrs than God. He had a reamer (I'm pretty sure it was carbide, it's been awhile ago) that was almost the perfect size and a pretty good shape. In all honesty, he did the final cut; cause I didn't want to be blamed if anything went wrong (those things are expensive). The other stuff I've made since have all been Redneck engineered from tooling that I've scrounged and collected over the years. Trial and error, some things work some don't. I also use a reloading press only. I did get a Lee Classic Cast press a few years ago and use it only for swaging. Best deal going, at the time only about $85.

[Prospector Howard]

Lizard, I hadn't noticed any difference in the weights of the Fed cases. Every one that I weighed came out at just over 10 gr so I didn't feel the need to weigh and sort them. I've been shooting the same Wally World 550 packs for years and saving what I shot. Remember when they were $9.47 a pack, and you couldd get them any time you wanted? The good old days.

[Prospector Howard]

Customcutter, Dude you better stay out them Fl swamps and wrestling them gators.

[customcutter]

Customcutter, Dude you better stay out them Fl swamps and wrestling them gators.

I might go in the swamp after an Osceola turkey, but I've pretty much given up on the deer and hogs. You need to stay out of the desert and away from the diamondbacks and scorpions. I did buy a couple of metal detectors a couple of years back, haven't found any thing of value yet.

Yes, the "devils in the details" on those point forming dies. The rest is pretty straight forward. Do you remember if your reamer was a flat D reamer, 4 point, or other?

CC

[alfloyd]

"federals, there spears to be two different weights. 9.3 and 10.2"

That is because Federals are made in two different plants.
Some is made in Idaho by CCI and some are made by Federal back East somewhere.
Thus 2 different weights of cases.

Lafaun

[Nickle]

Welcome to the forum.

Please don't stop sharing. Some of us may have been reloading and casting for a long time now, but some of us are new, to all or part of it.

Myself, I just got into swaging, still in the process of getting set up and tooled up. Trust me, anything and everything the experienced people mention helps. In my case, I'll try to return the favor in kind, with sharing what I know.

[MrWolf]

Welcome also - please say as much as you want as I am just starting myself and am constantly reading and trying to figure out how to make a set of dies with only a drill press :cry: You never know, something you may say may make something finally click for some of us.

[Prospector Howard]

As far as I remember it was a 4 flute reamer (four cutting edges straight cut), I've never heard the term 4 point.
I might go in the swamp after an Osceola turkey, but I've pretty much given up on the deer and hogs. You need to stay out of the desert and away from the diamondbacks and scorpions. I did buy a couple of metal detectors a couple of years back, haven't found any thing of value yet.

Yes, the "devils in the details" on those point forming dies. The rest is pretty straight forward. Do you remember if your reamer was a flat D reamer, 4 point, or other?

CC

[Prospector Howard]

Take my word for it, if you want to try to make your own dies, find a metal lathe somehow. The learning curve is pretty steep on alot of this stuff, that's one reason why good dies cost so much. From what I can tell the local expert (B T Sniper) spent alot of time learning and refining his trade and my hat's off to him.
Welcome also - please say as much as you want as I am just starting myself and am constantly reading and trying to figure out how to make a set of dies with only a drill press :cry: You never know, something you may say may make something finally click for some of us.

[customcutter]

As far as I remember it was a 4 flute reamer (four cutting edges straight cut), I've never heard the term 4 point.

Sorry, I'm not a machinist. Trying to learn to be one though. Maybe I need to stay at a Holiday Inn tonight.:D I made a 4 flute a few weeks ago out of W-1. Heat treated it, but forgot to temper it and chucked up the die, put the reamer in the tailstock, eased it into the die while turning the chuck by hand. It sounded like glass breaking when it made contact. Spent half the day making that sucker and it was gone in a second. Won't make that mistake again.

Reason I was asking is I've made 2 more points, I just need to decide whether to grind them in 1/2 or make more 4 flutes. I may make one of each, just to see how it goes.

thanks,
CC

[MrWolf]

Thanks Prospector, I started looking at the Harbor Freight ones, but I learned a long time ago to buy a quality tool or keep buying the same tool a few times. Not sure I would get enough use out of my own lathe to justify the cost as I have to many tools as is - according to my wife that is ;-)

[Cane_man]

you can look at it this way wolf, buy a swaging system retail and pay $750-$1500, buy a lathe just big enough to get the job done at home and pay $200-$500, and in the end you keep the lathe to make as many swaging dies as you like...

[customcutter]

Thanks Prospector, I started looking at the Harbor Freight ones, but I learned a long time ago to buy a quality tool or keep buying the same tool a few times. Not sure I would get enough use out of my own lathe to justify the cost as I have to many tools as is - according to my wife that is ;-)

Just make a deal with her, you'll quit buying tools when she quits buying clothes and shoes. Just kidding. I figure a lathe, milling machine, what ever is a lot cheaper than a new boat.:D

CC

[MrWolf]

I hear ya, I hate paying for things that I know with some time I can make for myself. I make that same argument with myself Cane_Man, just have to find the $ after all I already bought this year. She complains we don't get to use the boat we already have CC ;-)

[Cane_man]

carry on wolf, sounds like you got the same domestic challenges i do :) i just switch payments around between the credit card, paypal, personal checks, and chashiers checks from savings... the ol switcheroo!

cc, as soon as i finish that last 10% of my 9mm to 40/10mm swaging system (case hardening-getting close on this, core cutting-starting this weekend, and rim removal-easy just need the time to finish) i am going to figure out how to make the .224 6S reamer... i already got me 3' of W1, and i know how i want to attack it... on my first reamer attempt i put a very small center drill to the end of the drill rod and turned a small dimple on it, then when i was milling the flute it was easy to see how close i was to actual center, and if the dimple is just smaller than the meplat you are not going to use that part of the reamer anyway... more to come, and when i get going i will post in your reamer thread you started...

anyway, sorry for the bunny trail- i want to hear Prospector Howard speak more!