I'm ready to call it quits

[TrapperXX]

I am so frustrated with loading 45-70 cast right now I'm not sure I want to bother anymore.
Casting is fun and no problems now. It took a few times but I'm making nice bullets now.
I got through the broken lubsizer, ordered a custom size die, replaced a fried pot etc. Got the pilot for 45-70 so I could trim. Overcame all the obstacles.
I have about 500 lbs WW, most of it was free. So lead is no problem now.
The problem I can't seem to get past is this. I have a custom mold that was made .460/400 and supposed to seat in the crimp grove and give a proper length to function in Marlin rifles. In the crimp grove, it was over the max COL and would not function. So, out came the trimmer. I trimmed to under case trim length of 2.090 to 2.075.
So, Hornady dies. De-cap resize, good. Expand, good. Go to set up the bullet seating die, forget it.
I am trying to seat with a crimp and it says to follow the instructions to seat without a crimp first, which I do. I get the bullet in the crimp grove and at a length of about 2.550 or less.
Now, I go to crimp it and following the instructions, it says to
1.back out the seater adjustment screw a few turns.
2. raise the arm to top of stroke.
3. thread seater die down until resistance
4. thread SD in small bits to crimp. AS I do this instead of crimping or in addition to crimping it is seating the bullet further, past the crimp grove. ???
I did not seem to have this problem reloading jacketed bullets. I seem to remember it crimping like it was supposed to.
I'm tired of wasting brass, wasting bullets, gas checks, Wasting time, and getting nowhere.
Maybe I'm just tired but I have to vent. [smilie=b:[smilie=b:
I am really starting to think that shooting a deer with cast bullets I made is not gonna happen.

[MT Chambers]

Crimp in a second step, and remove the seating stem and then just work on the crimp.

[Ford SD]

I ran in to that problem with some cast .432 /.433 dia in a 44 mag

what my problem was
seater die top punch was the wrong shape and catching
and
the crimp part of the seater/ crimp die was .4325 dia and the crimp part was seating bullets deaper

[Silverboolit]

Set your bullet depth so the bullet is in the crimp groove. The unscrew the seating stem/plug all the way up. raise the ram, screw the whole die down to touch the case( until resistance is felt), Adjust crimp by screwing in the die a little more until you have achieved the crimp that you want. When you have what you want, reun the loaded cartridge back into the die. Lock the die down, and screw the seat stem/plug down til it touches the cartridge. Lock in the seating stem. All done. Hope that helps.

[tomme boy]

Buy a separate seating die and use it as your crimp die only. That way you don't have to keep readjusting the die all the time. I do this for just about every cal. I load for.

[Mike Kerr]

Hang in there, I'll bet succes is just ahead.

[btroj]

Yep, I have a separate crimp die for any cartridge that needs crimping.

Know any veteran reloaders who can come over and show you what to do? First hand teaching is always the best.

[41 mag fan]

Sounds to me like you're backing your seater stem out only a few turns, (like you stated above) but you're screwing your seater die down more than a few turns, so you're seating further when you think you're crimping.

[Tatume]

4. thread SD in small bits to crimp. AS I do this instead of crimping or in addition to crimping it is seating the bullet further, past the crimp grove.

Hi Trapper,

I've experienced this problem twice myself, once with 45-70 and once with 454 Casull. The threaded portion of the die body that holds the seating stem was contacting the bullet. Another die was my solution.

I suggest you seat a bullet to the correct depth, then remove the seater stem altogether. Try to crimp the case. If it pushes the bullet, you know that the die body is contacting the bullet. You could then try a different brand of die, or purchase a second die and bore out the threads for the seater stem.

Take care, Tom

P.s., make certain you don't have a build-up of bullet lube that is causing your trouble. Take the die apart and clean it. I've seen this problem too.

[cbrick]

I ALWAYS seat and crimp in two separate steps. Been doing it since I first started reloading a few decades ago, just seems logical to not be seating the boolit while turning the case mouth into the boolit.

Redding Profile Crimp Die (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/296530/redding-profile-crimp-die-45-70-government)

RCBS Cowboy Roll Crimp Die (http://www.midwayusa.com/product/330578/rcbs-cowboy-roll-crimp-seater-die-45-70-government)

Midway is showing both of these dies as in stock and available.

Make life easy, set up your seating die so that it applies no crimp & seats the boolit to your desired OAL. Run them through again using the crimp die that does not seat the boolit.

Rick

[Smoke4320]

lee 45-70 factory crimp die is you answer ..
seat with std die... crimp with Lee FCD

[atr]

+one for the advice given by Silverboolit

[fouronesix]

Back the seater die out so the only thing it does is take any flare out of the case mouth during the bullet seating stroke. Get and use a Lee FCD to crimp into the groove. Don't over crimp. And yes, the Lee FCD does require some adjustment, although it is not as length critical as other crimping dies since it uses a sliding collet.

Your problem is common when reloading large (fat) cast bullets. Most dies are designed for Jbullet loading so some tweaking of adjustments is required for cast bullet loading.

[cajun shooter]

You are becoming confused by trying to read into what the instructions are saying instead of just reading them. The step is very easy to perform and you are going to slap your head when you finally do it correctly. The other postings are correct and the only reason I'm adding to the pot is I do have one thing to say that has not been given to you.
If you are shooting your 45-70 rounds in a single shot and not subjecting them to a lot of banging and being carried around loose then YOU DON"T NEED A CRIMP.
Now let me also add that there are several things that may come into play to where your gun needs some different loading steps or technique.
Please allow me to go over a few of them. If you are loading with new brass then don't worry about trying to trim your cases. It is not a needed step.
If you are loading for a single shot rifle then you need no crimp stage. If you are loading to where one is needed then you should always make it the final stage. In other words seat your bullet to it's correct depth. Then either change to a die that is meant to crimp only or remove the center seating stem. This is done after all rounds have been seated.
I have for years had the best crimps on my loads by using the Redding Crimp die for that caliber. They are by far the best. Stay away from the Lee Die when reloading 45-70.
Measure your cast bullets and make sure that the expanding die is large enough to open the cases to the correct size or you will be shaving lead.
If you are loading with BP then you will have more extra steps to do but you did not say so I will stay away from that at this time.
After you settle in and gain your sanity back there is a step that helps with the accuracy of the 45-70 and that is annealing your cases. I suggest you try to find a mentor or at least try it out on some older cases first. Take Care and good luck. David

[Junior1942]

lee 45-70 factory crimp die is you answer ..
seat with std die... crimp with Lee FCDBest advice so far.

[dragon813gt]

+one for the advice given by Silverboolit

His post explains how to set up the die properly. It's exactly how I do mine. And while I understand why you would want to seat and crimp in a separate step. I've found no discernible difference between doing it all at once and separately. I'm sure if you're a BR shooter you will see it. But for my general purpose and hunting loads they both shoot the same.

[TrapperXX]

Guys, Thank you for all the advice. I thought I'd get a few people to tell me to stop whining, lol. Now that I've had some sleep and some great support, I can keep trying.
As I said, Jacketed with these dies have been no problem. I just ordered the cowboy dies and a separate cowboy roll crimp. The hornady resizer had a bad bur in it anyway. I'd rather start over and do the seat and crimp separate.
I'm starting to think maybe the mold is okay and I won't have to trim in spec brass too.
Cajun, I am shooting Marlin guide guns and full size Marlin 1895, so crimp is needed.

Frustrated as I had hoped to be sending these over the chrony by now and and starting to load for the 444.
Still time though, I know I can do this.
Thanks for the support all, God Bless.

[FishingFool]

Set your bullet depth so the bullet is in the crimp groove. The unscrew the seating stem/plug all the way up. raise the ram, screw the whole die down to touch the case( until resistance is felt), Adjust crimp by screwing in the die a little more until you have achieved the crimp that you want. When you have what you want, reun the loaded cartridge back into the die. Lock the die down, and screw the seat stem/plug down til it touches the cartridge. Lock in the seating stem. All done. Hope that helps.

This is the way to do it. I also shoot marlin 1895s and I use the rcbs cowboy dies. Very easy with this setup method.

[Tatume]

My brother and I shoot 45-70 Guide Guns and don't crimp. The bullets do not set back or cause any other problems. You might want to try it.

[cbrick]

I just ordered the cowboy dies and a separate cowboy roll crimp.

You'll be happy with the RCBS Cowboy dies. They are designed for cast boolits and the expander plug should give you the proper brass expansion and bell for cast. Most standard dies while quite good but they are dimensioned for those ugly expensive brown J bullets.

Let us know how it goes for you.

Rick

[truckjohn]

Yep...
I have had issues with Cast bullets catching on the inside of the die and being pushed further into the case when trying to crimp... Those dies are made with very little clearance... When your bullet is ~0.005" larger than Jacketed - it can hit the die instead of moving up into the bullet holding portion of the die...

You won't see this during the Seating portion when you back the die way off and use it to seat.... but when you try to crimp - it stuffs the bullet deep into the case....

Another thing I have run into is bullet lube squishing up into the seater die and causing all sorts of problems... It's worth it to watch your reloads and when you see lube on the exposed portions of the bullets - pull the die apart and clean it out good....

Thanks

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

Lee's Rifle style factory crimp die can crimp the case mouth on any part of the boolit, crimp groove or not. While it's not ideal, it is a crimp and will hold more than no crimp.

If you are skeptical of this, that is exactly how 'hawk bullets' recommends it with their annealed 'dead soft' copper jacketed bullets.
read down to 6th paragraph.
http://www.hawkbullets.com/selectabul.htm

[DLCTEX]

I load with Lee dies for MarlinGG and boolits sized .460 using the FCD. Boolits are RD 460-350, RD 460-420, and Lee 459-350PB (opened to cast 460) with good results. I really like the Lee FCD.

[John Allen]

Try the taper crimp dies. I do like everyone else said. I seat all my shells and then taper crimp.

[Recluse]

Buy a separate seating die and use it as your crimp die only. That way you don't have to keep readjusting the die all the time. I do this for just about every cal. I load for.

Likewise.

One other thing. On some of the boolits that have large, flat meplats and/or diameters that make for a REAL tight fit inside a seating and crimping die, I will smear a little mink oil (or Imperial Sizing Lube) on every third to fifth boolit as I'm seating/crimping them. Helps prevent any "sticking" to the die.

:coffee:

[TrapperXX]

Thanks again men. I am excited to get past this. If the dies get here Thursday, I may be shooting this weekend. I know this bullet is gonna be bad deer medicine.

[TrapperXX]

Just to follow up for those that helped. I received my cowboy dies and all is good. Set one seater die to seat the bullet and another seater die to crimp. Crimping does not change the bullet depth and the rounds cycle through my guide guns and full size 1895 fine.
These RCBS dies overall seem a little nicer than the Hornady. The Hornady decapper has a wicked bur inside it and the threads on the H seater die top piece bind up when adjusting.