question regarding reduced loads in 30-30 and IMR-4198.

[attila]

I have a pound of IMR 4198 that I'd like to use with some 165 gr cast bullets. The bullet manufacturer (MBC purchased before i started casting my own and i don't have a 30-30 sized mold yet anyway) recommends keeping velocity below 1700 fps to prevent leading of the barrel. This means that a reduced load is required.

What I have thus far is 17.4-18.9 gr loads in 0.3 gr increments using IMR 4198. That leaves A LOT of empty space in the case and I'm concerned about blowing up my gun and losing body parts. Is this low of a load dangerous with IMR4198? I have read of people using IMR4198 in a similar fashion, but they've all been different scenarios. I would love to use another powder, but am at my state legal limit of 5 lbs of powder (MD sucks) and can't get a more suitable powder for a while. Even when i do manage to load enough to legally buy more, I won't likely find anything for a while (i've searched for trailboss, unique, 4759, etc to no avail).

Only other powders i have are Reloader 7, W296, and Lil'gun. Of these, only Reloader 7 is an option for 30-30, but not for reduced loads...

Thanks in advance!
Attila

[RickinTN]

Nothing wrong with your IMR4198 for what you are doing. It's difficult to say any one powder is perfect but the IMR4198 for your application would be one of the very close ones. Don't worry about the extra powder space. You should be looking at between 1,500 and 1,700 fps or so. You didn't tell us if the bullets wore a gas check. If so, you will probably find a very good load in the range your testing.
Good Luck,
Rick

[attila]

thanks Rick, and if i had known anything about casting when i purchased the boolits, i'd have looked for GC boolits. so, to answer your question, no, they aren't checked. and since we're on the topic of variables, this is all for a marlin 336 with microgroved 20" barrel.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

I have used a quarter sheet of TP for years in such cases, tamped down on the powder. Others here use a pinch of dacron to slightly retard powder shift and reduce variable ignition. Be aware that this powder will leave unburned particles in the barrel.

BvT

[attila]

so, when you load, its powder directly on the primer and then TP between boolit and powder? also, I have 30 rds already loaded (roll crimped, and if i pull them, i'd also have to reflare the cases, further reducing lifespan of the shells), so i'm hoping this is all safe as is. i figured worst case, i'd just raise the muzzle each time to get the powder to the back of the case, but that'd be a pain in the ***.

[Larry Gibson]

Attila

Forget the TP, do not use a "wad"....use a filler instead.

Read post #2 in; http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?109280-The-proper-use-of-fillers

I suggest you continue to look for Bullseye, Red Dot, Unique or a similar burning rate powder for use with those bullets as they will work well w/o any filler.

Untill then I suggest starting at 14 gr 4198 and work up to 18 gr in 1/2 gr increments and use a 1/2 gr dacron filler as described in post #2 of the above thread. Be glad to answer any questions?

If you have a chronograph work up to 1700 fps or stop when accuracy goes south (probably between 1600 - 1700 fps). 4198 is a bit slow burning to work well at the low psi's needed to keep that bullet under 1700 fps. Results may or may not be good. The faster burners mentioned (no need for a filler with them) would be better.

Larry Gibson

[attila]

I do have a chrony and plan on using it for various loads i've prepared for work up.

So, this dacron or polyester filler. is it also available at the large hardware stores like HD or Lowes? i'm gonna be going that way anyway and figured i'd ask. i'm surprised actually that polyester doesn't cause charred plastic deposits in the bore, or is there a concern with this?

[attila]

Attila

Untill then I suggest starting at 14 gr 4198 and work up to 18 gr in 1/2 gr increments and use a 1/2 gr dacron filler as described in post #2 of the above thread. Be glad to answer any questions?

Larry Gibson

Hey Larry, so you recommend pulling the boolits? i guess i'll have to anneal them, because they've been fired, flared, crimped, and will need flaring and crimping again once filler is installed. i'd like to avoid splitting the necks.

[uscra112]

I do have a chrony and plan on using it for various loads i've prepared for work up.

So, this dacron or polyester filler. is it also available at the large hardware stores like HD or Lowes? i'm gonna be going that way anyway and figured i'd ask. i'm surprised actually that polyester doesn't cause charred plastic deposits in the bore, or is there a concern with this?

The polyester stuff is usually found in sewing departments. Used for pillow filling.

At low pressures it does leave a deposit in the cases. Been there. What a mess!

I haven't done a load that needed anything to keep the powder in position for years, but I have a supply of kapok (vegetable fiber) if I ever do. I found it for sale on evilBay. Quite cheap, actually.

As Larry said, keep trying to find some faster powder. I now use Blue Dot with great success. Red Dot is great stuff for plain base boolits in strong actions. Herco works well, too. Modern Schuetzen guys use magnum pistol powders like AA#9, 4100, and Alliant 300MP with plain base boolits and shoot amazing groups. The old standby 2400 is also popular there. None of these need fillers of any kind.

Of the ones you've got, Lil'Gun is a maybe. I've always used it at higher load densities, but about 12 grains to start might work.

[frnkeore]

If you would like a highly accurate load for ~1400/1500 fps, load 13 to 14 gr of W296 in 1/2 gr increments. Seat the bullet out as far as possible, so it engages the rifling. If you can, check the run out of the bullet in the case. If it starts crooked, it won't be accurate no matter what the load combo may be.

DO NOT put ANYTHING inside that case with the powder! And it's not primer sincitive, I use F150 pistol primers. I gotten 6 fps extreme spread in this charge range with that primer.

RCBS cast bullet manual recommends 13.0 gr @ 1435, 175 gr bullet, in a 20" barrel

I have shot almost 8lb of this powder in that powder charge range, in 4 different cartridges, 30/30, 32/35 (.308 groove), 8.15x46R (.316 groove) and 32/40), that's over 4000 rounds.

Frank

[Mk42gunner]

Hey Larry, so you recommend pulling the boolits? i guess i'll have to anneal them, because they've been fired, flared, crimped, and will need flaring and crimping again once filler is installed. i'd like to avoid splitting the necks.

I'm not Larry, but I wouldn't try to pull and reuse plain based boolits, especially if the case has been crimped. What I would do is load some of Larry's recommended loads in other brass, and see how they do. This will give you some hands on experience, then you can make the call if you want to pull the loads or not.

Regardless, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO ANNEAL PRIMED BRASS. Live explosives (the primer) and heat do not play well together.

I believe that annealing, while it can be worthwhile, has been over emphasized. I have cases several years old, with several loadings on them that I have never annealed.

Welcome aboard and good luck,

Robert

[RPRNY]

Do not do any of the things recommended above.

Go to a manufacturer published source of reloading data (available on line) or Lyman 49. The published Maximum charge of H4198 with that bullet weight (albeit jacketed) is under 1700 fps mv. A published starting load (@15grs) will neither be position sensitive nor exceed 1700 fps even with a lead bullet. In any event, a little leading will come out with bronze wool and elbow grease. Melted pillow stuffing or undocumented pressures from toilet paper wads? Who the f knows? And don't worry about annealing your 30-30 brass. You will get 30+ loads from almost any 30-30 brass firing the softball loads you are using.

Stick to manufacturer published data with documented loading components and leave the home recipes to the Internet gurus. At least until you are as wise and experienced as some of them claim to be...

[shredder]

Do not do any of the things recommended above.

leave the home recipes to the Internet gurus.

How long you been on this site partner? You do not understand who you are dealing with here to blatantly make such dismissive statements. There are folks here who have written those reloading manuals for the big reloading companies!

[RPRNY]

How long you been on this site partner? You do not understand who you are dealing with here to blatantly make such dismissive statements. There are folks here who have written those reloading manuals for the big reloading companies!

I take it then that you are indeed a guru. In case you hadn't bothered to read the full thread, the OP is not a highly experienced hand loader. "Stuff toilet paper in the case", "use unpublished short loads of 296", may be wisdom that would benefit the ammunition industry, but providing vague instruction to someone who may not have the same level of experience as those providing it will, almost invariably, lead to disaster. Whereas, "use manufacturer published data and components" will rarely do so. Untwist your knickers and recognize that not everyone seeking advice here is necessarily the expert in handloading and ballistics that you so evidently are.

[attila]

In case you hadn't bothered to read the full thread, the OP is not a highly experienced hand loader.

I genuinely appreciate your motives to attempt to limit the potential for inexperienced reloaders hurting themselves, but I assure you, I take everything i read outside of loading manuals with at least one grain of salt or more as required. I use various loading manuals for published loads, and each time i read something on the almighty interwebs, I research it further for verification prior to implementing something potentially dangerous.

BTW, OP is not highly experienced, but OP is also not inexperienced. This means that i, the aforementioned OP, have enough experience to know when i'm doing something dangerous, when to ask questions, and also have the good sense to research stuff, ask questions, and research some more. I usually have a long time between shooting outings, giving me plenty of time to do all the above mentioned activities.

to everyone providing wisdom gained through years of experience, be that in accordance with published manuals or not, I appreciate that as well!

[Larry Gibson]

attila

As already mentioned do not anneal primed cases. I suggest you just shoot the loads you have (tipping the barrel verticle and then lowering to horizontal before firing may help accuracy) and reload the cases. Walmart has dacron as do other sewing/fabric stores Photo is of 2 different small bags (will do lots of cartridges) I saw just the other day; both less than $5. There is no concern with polyester "charring" or melting, it just blows out the end of the barrel.

I appreciate RPRNY's concern, especially with the 2 mentioned examples. If you must use the 4198 then do as has been explained with the dacron filler. Also as mentioned continue the search for a faster powder as it will be better for your needs with that bullet.

Larry Gibson

72735

[RPRNY]

Okay , I may have been overly conservative and expressive in my response. Sorry to those who offered wisdom and got a snappish response. I have seen so many things go horribly wrong as of late with all the very green reloaders and it appears the OP is at no such risk. Carry on.

[attila]

No problem RPRNY. i'm sure we've all made snappy remarks and felt remorse at some point... well, at least i have...

Larry,
Just yesterday I chastised my brother when he mentioned annealing with primers still in! hahaha!
Also, I got some batting at micheals craft store yesterday while out and will be cutting it to fit my cases. until i get powders designed for reduced loads, i will fill the cases as recommended, thank you. btw, any good/recommended ways to cut this stuff? i was thinking a round gasket punch would be great (same concept as cookie cutter but for fiber/paper sheet gaskets), but i'll have to go find one somewhere.

[frnkeore]

RPRNY,
Where do you get this? "use unpublished short loads of 296" I cited where that data came from, RCBS it's self! If you don't have the loading manual, I suggest to obtain it. It has 5 different loads of W296/H110 loads for the 30/30 for various bullet weights.

Again, do not use a filler of any kind with this powder!

Frank

[Larry Gibson]

attila

From another post of mine on another thread with a couple additional pointers added;

Note the "extra Loft" on the bag? That's the right thickness. If you get batting by the yard I get 5/8 to 3/4" thick. Thinner works fine, you just have to cut larger chunks is all. I use sharpe scissors to cut mine with; cut a strip off about 5/8" wide and then cut into 1/3, 1/2 or 3/4 gr chunks by eye balling it. You can cut chunks of 1/3 gr, 1/2 gr, 3/4 gr and 1 gr and have then handy to look at when cutting the strips into the size of chunks you want....helps "eye balling" it. I keep the chunks in medium flat rate USPS boxes or coffee cans. When "stuffing" the chunk into the cartridge you know by the size of the chunk whether "enough" is "enough" and if one appears too small discard and pick up another. Doesn't take long to get the hang of it and it goes quick. I also have the charged cases in a loading block and stuff the chunk of dacron with the cases still in the block. That way I don't have to andle the charged case. I have the rod in my right hand and pick up and place the chunlk over the case mouth with the left hand and feed the dacron as I stuff it in with the right. Leave some on the neck for the bullet to finish pushing down.

Remember, the key to using the dacron filler is to use enough to fill the air space keeping the dacron in a "loft" state and not tamped down on the powder. With the air space filled there is a +/- after that on the amount. I have done considerable accuracy, velocity and pressure testing of dacron fillers in several cartridges from just fill to crammed full of dacron. There is a point where too much does slightly increase the psi, decrease the velocity and a loss of accuracy generally occurs. However, that is usually close to the "crammed and packed in" stage. In the '06 for instance with 28 - 30 gr 4895 under a 180 - 200 gr cast I recommend a 3/4 gr dacron filler. That will fill the air space with the dacron just poked in so it is still "lofty". Using as much as up to 1 1/4 gr makes little difference in velocity or pressure variation and accuracy generally remains constent so that is what I mean by the +/- fudge factor. There is no need to weigh each chunk of filler........just use enough to fill the air space.

Larry Gibson

[RPRNY]

RPRNY,
Where do you get this? "use unpublished short loads of 296" I cited where that data came from, RCBS it's self! If you don't have the loading manual, I suggest to obtain it. It has 5 different loads of W296/H110 loads for the 30/30 for various bullet weights.

Again, do not use a filler of any kind with this powder!

Frank

Frank, you've had this discussion before, on this very Forum. At that time it was the Speer Manual that you said you derived these reduced loads from. And just as now, people pointed to the very explicit warning by Hodgdon not reduce H110 or W296 loads more than 3%. What you may wish to do is your own business and I shall not abjure you from doing what you please. Directing others to engage in something expressly prohibited by the powder company is a problem, as was pointed out to you in your 2011 post on the exact same subject.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?120921-296-H110-for-30-30


H110 and Winchester 296 loads should not be reduced more than 3%.

Reduce H110 and Winchester 296 loads 3% and work up from there. H110 and Winchester 296 if reduced too much will cause inconsistent ignition. In some cases it will lodge a bullet in the barrel, causing a hazardous situation (Barrel Obstruction). This may cause severe personal injury or death to users or bystanders. DO NOT REDUCE H110 LOADS BY MORE THAN 3%. From the Front Page of the Hodgdon on-line data center.

http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp

The fact that Hodgdon itself does not provide any load data for H110 / W296 in 30-30 WCF is also telling.

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp Pistol Data
http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp Rifle Data

The whole matter was explained rather well to you in July 2011 by others on the Forum:


I understand the fact YOU are using it in a rifle. Problem is that many will see a reduced load with 110/296 and not know any better. They then get themselves a need for a new gun.

One of the biggest troubles I see on this site is the inability of new guys, and some experienced ones, to be able to recognize that some techniques are good for only a very specific niche in shooting. People will take things out of a very specific context and that is where the trouble begins.

Before we start a big discussion on how well reduced charges work in the 30-30 we need to remember that their are people who will read this discussion and take it heavily out of context and get into trouble. That is what scares me. I prefer to err on the side of safety at all times, even when it isn't my safety.

We are not trying to rain on your parade. We are trying to keep others from doing stupid things. Do not expect that others will see what you publish and stick within that narrow field. They will take it out of context and only see a reduced load. They will not realize a rifle and revolver are very different situations. They will damage something.

With the large number of powders that work very well in the velocity range you are using (a point also made here again today) why take a chance? - btroj

As was noted then, citing data from a manual published in 1987 as safe to use today is a problem. Powder formulas and manufacturing methods change, incidents arising from powder use in a specific application come to the attention of manufacturers, etc. Twenty-five year old data contradicted by specific current injunction from the powder company is not advice you should be giving out, particularly without a disclaimer to that effect. Otherwise we could just post Phil Sharpe's load data from 1937 and be done with the rest.

So, Frank, I am getting this from: 1) current loading data provided by Hodgdon; 2) from a specific injunction against reduced loads of those powders that they prominently publish, and; 3) from exchanges that you have already had with other members of this Forum in which they A) explained why it is problematic, and B) urged you to desist from making such recommendations.

[frnkeore]

Speer, RCBS and Lyman all use these powders in loading data!

If what you say is the gospel truth, please tell me why Hodgdon list a loads between 12.0 and 13.0 gr of this powder in there current loading info for 32/40 with the weakest primers of all, Rem 2 1/2 and pressures of 17,900 CUP.

That 3% reduced warning is for revolvers with a cylinder gap.

Regarding old loading info, anyone that uses any of the IMR powders would fall in the same catagory as well as B'eye and Unque. Also, tell me who abides by Winchesters strick warning to use all their loading data exactly as given at the maximum charges that they list in their manuals. They were the manufactor of the powder and they did not want their data devaited in any way. No reduced charges in any way. No reducing 5/10% and working up. No changes of any sort. Do you only use maximum charges of 296, 748, 760 and 785 at the OAL and primers they specified?

If you want to go back and hash this out again, I'd be happy to and I'll first ask you the same question as I've asked before "Please tell me of ANY documented weapon failures using 296/H110 powder in a closed chamber rifle".

Frank

[David2011]

Attila,

While this isn't an answer to the question you asked, H4895 is the classic reduced rifle load powder. Hodgdon even has a reduced loads page on their website for H4895. It can be used down to 60% of maximum recommended charges per their recommendations.

David

[attila]

thank you. though not applicable in this specific situation, i'll keep that in mind.


Attila,

While this isn't an answer to the question you asked, H4895 is the classic reduced rifle load powder. Hodgdon even has a reduced loads page on their website for H4895. It can be used down to 60% of maximum recommended charges per their recommendations.

David

[attila]

So, I took the 30-30 to an indoor range for quick testing, and the 17.4 and 17.7 grain loads worked just fine without filler. I chose to shoot these indoors without a chrony just to get rid of the load I had doubts about and because, I still have 4 more increments to test which will be closer to the desired velocity. I didn't point the muzzle vertical every time, but all I and my gun are still ok. I guess I can trust in IMR 4198 to not suffer from reduced load issues.

[andremajic]

So, I took the 30-30 to an indoor range for quick testing, and the 17.4 and 17.7 grain loads worked just fine without filler. I chose to shoot these indoors without a chrony just to get rid of the load I had doubts about and because, I still have 4 more increments to test which will be closer to the desired velocity. I didn't point the muzzle vertical every time, but all I and my gun are still ok. I guess I can trust in IMR 4198 to not suffer from reduced load issues.

I have spent the last 2 months developing a load for my 30-30 with 180gr 311041 boolits with Aluminum GC, 19gr of 4198 powder, CCI LR primers, and 4 different brands of brass in lots. After checking chronograph speeds to ensure it was consistent enough (1650-1700fps), I started to concentrate more in my boolit/case prep as being more important for accuracy.

Boolit is lightly crimped in the crimp groove. Cases have been fire formed to my chamber, decapped only resizing the first 1/4 of the neck, trimmed with the LEE 30-30 case gauge trimmer, lightly flared with the LEE universal flaring tool, and primed. (In that order)

Projectiles are weighed and seperated in 2 piles with a cheap digital scale. Anything 182gr goes in one pile, (small amount) and the 180gr ones are the ones I use.

With a NRA 100 yard target, (at 100 yards), and a filed down factory issue iron sight, I can make them all go in the black. At 25 yards, the group can be covered with a quarter. The last 100 yard group I shot had 2 fliers in the upper right-hand corner, but they were touching each other. (Probably need to tighten the nut behind the gun.) I'm sure if the rifle had a scope, the groups would be much better!

I noticed that this works well in all my brands/lots of brass. I am using Winchester, Federal, Remington, and Hornady brass. No fillers.
If the cases start to become more difficult to chamber, I full length resize them. I can reload them about 3 times before needing to full-lenth resize.

I have the rear sight at it's tallest setting, and it hits 1/2" high at 25yards, 1" high at 50 yards, and dead center at 100 yards. 1700fps. Plenty accurate for feral hogs.

If your marlin 336 is like mine, my data might help. Mine was manufactured in 1948.

Andy