What Cartridge ?

[6pt-sika]

After shooting my friends C. Sharps in 45-100 and scoped with a MVA 6x scope . I am thinking of ordering a second Sharps from most likely Shiloh after my 50-90 arrives .

And this rifle will be for scoping with a MVA scope .

So what caliber ?
At the moment I am thinking 44-77 Sharps first . Then possibly my second choice would be the 45-70 . And a possible third choice would be the 40-70 Sharps .

I like to try a lot of different moulds so the 44-77 looses a bit in that category , as there are a pile of moulds that can be used in either the 45-70 or the 40-70 .

The 40-65 would not be a bad choice , but I prefer to stay with calibers that were chambered in the original rifles at the factory .

[montana_charlie]

I am amazed at your hesitation, 6pt. It mystifies me that you hav not already settled on that epitome of the BPCR experience...that separator of men from boys...the final word in breech loaded smoke-poling...the .45/120.

We have been assured it is both easy to load for, and gentle on the shoulder (if you're a 'real man') to the point of not causing any discomfort at all after the first few shots. That assertion (however) did not also include information about the sensations present as the affected nerve endings begin to heal, and the numbness starts to wear off.

We have even been treated to the sound logic (and 'friendly banter') that ensued when a BPCR virgin chose it as his entry point to the world of Quigley-dom.

True...we never heard the rest of the story. We don't know if his Quigley-hood is a continuing thing, or if his rifle became such a permanent wall fixture that it was accidently covered over when the room was wall-papered last year.

But you owe yourself the adventure, 6pt. Don't be shy.
There may even be lucrative employment out there for a guy who can applaud...with his shoulder blades.
CM

[EDK]

I'd do some more reading --and rereading--of the SPG book and Mike Venturino's SHOOTING BUFFALO RIFLES OF THE OLD WEST to determine which cartridge. I'd also visit SHILOH SHARPS web site for some extended researching. Look for what the people with interests similar to yours are using.

I have a 50/90 #1/Long Range Express SHILOH and love it, BUT the next one will probably be a 45/70 or 45/90 for availability of components and tooling. $1.50+ brass and limited suppliers for the BIG 50 is a hassle; the more exotic calibers would only be worse. ( A good guess is that SHILOH probably makes more 45 calibers than any other.) There are also some "fine points" to be learned for bottle neck black powder cartridges--if you like to experiment and deal well with adversity! (That said, I'm getting ready to get into paper patch boolits as soon as I finalize what I want in a mould from Steve Brooks.)

AND GET THE RECOIL REDUCER INSTALLED IN THE 50/90 WHILE SHILOH IS BUILDING IT!!!! Not all of us are as tough as BOBW, the guy at the QUIGLEY SHOOT who shoots--and hits with!--a 50/140/500+paper patch that weights less than 11 pounds. Montana Charlie ought to be next to him on the firing line!

:castmine: :redneck:

[NickSS]

I own Sharps rifles either from C. Sharps or Shiloh in six different calibers and have owned a couple of others. My absolute favorit for shooting and target work is the 45-70. I have three of them including a Shiloh long range express, C. Sharps heavy and light barreled sporting rifles. My hunting rifle is a C Sharps 1874 50-70 carbine. My other calibers are 38-55, 38-56, 40-65 and 45-90. The first three are used for short range BPCR shoots and the 45-90 is used for long ranges matches over 600 yards. I have owned a 45-120, 45-2.6 and a 50-140. I sold all of them as recoil got to me and I could not shoot them accurately enough to suit me. I do have a friend that shoots a 45-120 in match shooting but he only loads 75 gr of powder and uses grits to fill the rest of the case.

My advice is to get a 45-70. Brass is available cheaply and loading data is also available as are numerous bullets to try out. It is my considered opinion that anything you want to do with black powder cartridge rifles can be done with the 45-70. The only other cartridge that you mentioned that I think highly of is the 40-70 Sharps straight. Definately not the bottle neck cartridge. I have sean a number of people try either a 40 or 44 bottle neck and never got the groups small enough to suit either them or myself.

[6pt-sika]

[QUOTE=montana_charlie;225582]I am amazed at your hesitation, 6pt. It mystifies me that you hav not already settled on that epitome of the BPCR experience...that separator of men from boys...the final word in breech loaded smoke-poling...the .45/120.CM[/QUOTE

Hmmm , I think with the 50-90 I have enough for "seperating the men from the boys" as you say !!!!!!!!

This second rifle will be something lighter in the recoil department so the scope might not possibly get up in my forehead !

I like the idea of the 44-77 Sharps , but the lack of easily available bullet moulds puts me off , as everyone knows there's comfort in lots and lots of stuff LOL's .

Where as with the 40-70 Straight or the 45-70 their are a pile of different moulds you can purchase for either .
I suspect when push comes to shove I will most likely go with the plain vanilla 45-70 .

[6pt-sika]

My advice is to get a 45-70. Brass is available cheaply and loading data is also available as are numerous bullets to try out. It is my considered opinion that anything you want to do with black powder cartridge rifles can be done with the 45-70. The only other cartridge that you mentioned that I think highly of is the 40-70 Sharps straight. Definately not the bottle neck cartridge. I have sean a number of people try either a 40 or 44 bottle neck and never got the groups small enough to suit either them or myself.


Well since I already own five Marlin levers in 45-70 , the choice of this caliber doesn't sound like a bad idea [smilie=1:

Already have 5 moulds as well :coffee: Although they are more suited for lever action's then a Sharps .
Venturino wrote about using the Lyman 330 grain HP Gould bullet in his 45-70 Sharps for hunting . That "has" been my #1 45-70 cast lever bullet for a number of years . So for hunting situations in a Sharps I do not see why this would not work :-D

[6pt-sika]

I think if the truth be told I would love to have a C. Sharps Model 1877 in 44-90 . But at the $7250 price there is NO way I can afford one of them .

The price for a "normal" Sharps that ends up in the $2500 area is hard enough for me to pay for :???:

[6pt-sika]

AND GET THE RECOIL REDUCER INSTALLED IN THE 50/90 WHILE SHILOH IS BUILDING IT!!!! Not all of us are as tough as BOBW, the guy at the QUIGLEY SHOOT who shoots--and hits with!--a 50/140/500+paper patch that weights less than 11 pounds. Montana Charlie ought to be next to him on the firing line!

:castmine: :redneck:

Hmmm , I hadn't even thought of getting a recoil reducer !

Sounds like a pretty good idea to me [smilie=1:

[montana_charlie]

I have been participating in a thread on the Shiloh forum that...

Nevermind, here is a link http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9535

If you can handle a drill, the C&H Research suppressor only costs $50...delivered.
CM

[6pt-sika]

I have been participating in a thread on the Shiloh forum that...

Nevermind, here is a link http://shilohrifle.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=9535

If you can handle a drill, the C&H Research suppressor only costs $50...delivered.
CM

Okay , give me some perspective .
I have shot a C> Sharps with the MVA scope in 45-100 that had a big slip on recoil pad . And I have shot a 45-70 Shiloh that was set up for silhouette .

With that in mind , how much more is the 50-90 gonna thump me in about a 11.5 pound rifle without the recoil reducer and how much with the recoil reducer .

Also back to your original reply . I take it that the 45-120 will knock the fire out of you in a 12 pound or under rifle ?

What is your take on the 44-77 and 45-90 RECOIL WISE ?

I doubt very seriousely if I will shoot BPCR so 40 or 80 round days are not in the picture . However I do plan on shooting maybe 20 times with a rifle when at the range .

[6pt-sika]

Charlie , after reading your thread on the Shiloh forum , I think a recoil reducer will be fitted before it leaves the factory [smilie=1:

When I ordered this thing , they told me you KNOW when you touch off the 50-90 . However it is not what would be called a sharp recoil , but more of a heavy heavy push . And they also told me that it would be easier to handle with a pistol gripped version as opposed to a straight grip .

I do however think if I order a second one after recieveing the 50-90 it will be in the #3 Sporter version with heavy barrel , semi fancy wood and pewter forened tip . And that in a 45-70 or 45-90 shouldn't be that hard on the shoulder . Plus when I put the MVA scope on top that should add an extra pound to the weight . So overall the rifle should be within a few ounces of 13 pounds .

The recoil on the 50-90 doesn't concern me as much as whatever I may have built with a scope attached . I don't believe I need to worry about the tang sight wacking me in the head on the 50-90 , but a heavy hitter with the MVA up top may be another story .

Again all my thoughts are based on one afternoon of shooting a pair of rifles .

I've made it 46 years without getting wacked in the head by a scope and I would prefer to keep my string intact :drinks:

[Jon K]

6pt,

Let me expand a little on what others have said, all good advice and take heed. But first a few questions, what distance do you plan to do most of your shooting? What position will you be shooting from- off hand, prone w/sticks, sitting w/sticks, bench?

Pistol grip- easier to hold consistant position and control the torque from the recoil, in any position especially off hand.

quote"I do however think if I order a second one after recieveing the 50-90 it will be in the #3 Sporter version with heavy barrel , semi fancy wood and pewter forened tip . And that in a 45-70 or 45-90 shouldn't be that hard on the shoulder . Plus when I put the MVA scope on top that should add an extra pound to the weight . So overall the rifle should be within a few ounces of 13 pounds ".

I'll tell you why I put a recoil reducer in my 45-90 34 inch Heavy Octagon #1(13# + 11 oz recoil reducer), well with a 540-570 grain boolit and 75-87 grains of BP, I had a guy tell me I was being pushed back everytime I shot the gun(prone postion). Ask Charlie and TD and others why they put on on their guns. And it's so EASY to put 100 rounds thru the gun in a day.

#3 stock does not have as high of a comb as some others, the higher comb helps when shooting the farther distances. The straight stock and short barrel like the Saddle Rifle is faster to swing into postion, but I find that for target or Silhouette shooting, the pistol grip with a higher comb easier to handle.

Caliber? Whatever lites your fire, that's the best one for you. Like Ford or Chevy huh?

Have Fun Shooting,
Jon

[6pt-sika]

JonK , thanks for the reply .

Most of my shooting will be off the bags on the bench . And whatever I may have in a Sharps it will get hunted a bit . Weight however in a hunting Sharps is not a big deal in the carry department , as I normally ride the ATV to within 75 yards of whatever treestand I will be sitting that session .

If and when I should decide to get in the BPCR silhouette game , and I don't anticipate that. I would go for a rifle in 40-65 . I already have a Marin 1895 of 1896 vintage in 40-65 and it is quite pleasent to shoot . So I can only think a 12 pound Sharps in 40-65 to be the same .

My friends C. Sharps in 45-100 is of the same design I think as the Shiloh #3 and his did seem a little low combed for the scope . Perhaps I should give some thought to another #1 instead . Just thought it would be nice to have the next one not totally like the 50-90 :-D

[6pt-sika]

JonK and Charlie , I think the biggest problem I'm gonna have with this whole Sharps thing , is the same one I have with the Marlin thing .

I never owned a Marlin until about 7 years ago . Now I own in excess of 75 of them . I am afraid this Sharps thing may take off in a similar direction although not on quite as grand a scale . I can pick up Marlin's that fill nitches in my collection for anywhere from $400 -1500 , where as every time I order a new Sharps be it Shiloh or C. Sharps it gonna bite the heck out of $2500 at least .

And then of course there is the burning desire for a CPA with a couple extra barrels .

Hmmm , don't know whether you would call me a collector or and accumulater [smilie=1:

[Jon K]

6pt,

Collecting or accumilating, hmmmm, is that a bad thing or a good thing? Good if you can afford to keep buying them, cause the Shiloh and C Sharps don't lose value, they seem to keep up with inflation. They also can be taylored to your shooting needs from 30-40 to 50-90, and whatever barrel and stock configuration your heart desires, and have you checked out FINISH & ENGRAVING options?

Then on the other side of the coin is: guys like myself, my pension can't afford to collect them, but just to have them to shoot different disciplines you gotta have more than one. So, in order to have more than one, I no longer keep what I'm not using, the old stuff that was cluttering up the safe. If I don't Love it, haven't used it in 10 years, then I guess I don't need it, and it's for sale so I can buy another Single Shot- Shiloh, C Sharps, High Wall or maybe even a Meecham someday.

It's where you set your priorities, I figure shooting is what I love to do, and there is nothing like having a fine piece of equipment. At this point in life (61) I fugure no sense in wishing I had something, and trying to make a cheap copy into a quality piece of craftmanship. Get what you want and don't look back.

Well that's my viewpoint, I'm not trying to open a can of worms, or start an uproar. Just my $.02, like I said whatever lites your fire, is what's best for you.

Have Fun Shooting,
Jon

[6pt-sika]

6pt,

and have you checked out FINISH & ENGRAVING options?


Have Fun Shooting,
Jon


Yes I have looked at that stuff long and hard [smilie=1:

[montana_charlie]

Okay , give me some perspective.

With that in mind , how much more is the 50-90 gonna thump me in about a 11.5 pound rifle without the recoil reducer and how much with the recoil reducer .

I'll relate my 'experience', but my 'perspective' may not be sufficiently similar to your 'conditions' to be helpful.

I can afford to pay cash for a new pickup, but I can't afford to buy a new Shiloh rifle. It's a need versus cost thing.
So, the Sharps I could afford was a lightly used Pedersoli Billy Dixon in .45/70, which was converted to .45/90 while on it's way to me.
That is (was) and eleven pound, six ounce rifle with a straight-gripped military butt.

(For perspective on my recoil-absorbing ability, forty rounds of 7mm Mag. from a benched eight-pound bolt gun is all I will put up with.)

Offhand shooting was not uncomfortable, but the rifle was more barrel-heavy than I like. Shooting from a bench required carefull placement of the steel-shod butt, and that didn't always occur. A single rap on the collar bone can suggest an early end to a shooting session...and a twenty-round bench session without placement difficulties was still enough for me.

I bought a PAST shoulder pad. It was too thick, and too hard. I couldn't 'feel' the butt, so I couldn't control it correctly.

I had once used a string to hang a lead ingot from the butt, and was more pleased with the balance of the piece. That, coupled with the idea that 'softer' recoil might eliminate the PAST pad, got me to thinking about the mercury recoil suppressor idea.

So, I built one. I meant to duplicate the 5-inch by 3/4-inch, 11-ounce unit from C&H Research. 11 ounces would bring the gun up to 12 pounds, 2 ounces...silhouette legal. But, I mistakenly remembered the suppressor as being a 5/8-inch diameter, and acquired tubing to match.
The 5-inch suppressor I built was too 'skinny', and only weighed 8 ounces.

With that installed, I found bench shooting to be more enjoyable, and the offhand balance was improved. I shot with and without the PAST pad, and found I still preferred some 'protection' during bench work...but the PAST pad had to go.
I got the 'rifle model' Bob Allen pad sold by Barnes Bullets, and really like it.

But, (eventually) the suppressor leaked.
Yeah, I thought it was nicely threaded and well sealed, but I probably put too much mercury in it...and it couldn't stand any 'expansion'.
So, I coughed up the fifty bucks for the real thing, and chased out the hole in my buttstock.
The offhand balance is (now) just what I like, but I haven't fired the rifle (yet) with the new suppressor installed.

That was my 'experience'. My 'perspective' (some of it) is...

Of course, you will be looking at a shotgun butt...not the military design. And, you want the control the pistol grip is supposed to provide.

I believe the shotgun butt is (basically) mandatory for prone shooting, but I feel that is an ergonomics thing...more than a recoil thing.
Sure, the recoil will be different, but not necessarily less with that stock shape. It's value is (I think) that the shotgun configuration makes it more comfortable...to shape your body...to sight the rifle...when you are flat on your belly.
It still appears to be unaviodable that, if you shoot these big guns a lot from the prone position, you will be 'crippled' to some degree...regardless of stock shape.
A suppressor should delay that.

As for the pistol grip, I have heard (read) many say that they are too long for proper positioning of the hand. I much prefer the idea of the 'ebony pistol grip' which is added to a straight-gripped stock. (They are available from Shiloh, if interested.)
For one thing, it's the only option available to me...but more importantly, it can be shaped to position the shooting hand at the correct distance from the trigger.

I plan to carve one out this winter, because I still have an ounce of leeway on the rifle's weight after adding the suppressor.
I guess the wood I drilled out weighed a full ounce.

CM

[WBH]

My 50-90 is a original Remingtom RB that I had re-done. Granted it is not a competition gun and weighs 16 pounds....but with a Decelerator pad and 625 grain boolit it is a pleasure to shoot off the sticks. I would say it is a little harder on the shoulder than my Sharps 45-2.4 at 12 pounds. At 11 pounds I would think it would be a thumper. My 8mm Mauser with mil loads is pure misery to shoot in comparison.