BCRC Reloading

[ColColt]

Having just bought, though not received yet, a Shiloh Sharps 45-90, I can see from what I've read reloading for it is a bit different than for what I've been use to. I can see the need of a drop tube be it 24" or 30" and I can see a compression die's necessity as to not deform the base of a soft 1:20 or 1:30 boolit but I don't see the need in a .020 or .030" wad over the powder. If you compress the powder enough to seat the boolit with maybe an eight inch compression, then why a wad? That's just an extra reloading step.

[Don McDowell]

You don't "need" need the drop tube, but you do need something for a compression die. I use the M die from the lyman die set to compress the powder.
You use a wad to help protect the bullet base from getting deformed during firing, and to help prevent lube migration from the bullet into the powder. Wad thickness and material can make or break a good load.

[ColColt]

Is there any info out that that tells of how much compression is needed and what size wad thickness to use? I suppose that also varies with caliber.

[MikeT]

ColColt,

Compression depends on many things that go into developing a balanced load. Sometimes we can generalize about compression e.g. Swiss minimum needed and Goex a lot of compression, but in the end it depends on other details of your load.

No way to get around the development process. Keep good reloading notes and shoot a lot.

Keep on hav'n fun!
MikeT

[country gent]

We had this discussion over drop tubes a month or so ago. I did alot of testing and you can funnel pour slowly almost the same charge as with the tube. You dont state what bullets you want to use Express style, Heavy grease groove or paper Patched. With Paper patched bore riding or grove diameter? These will make a big diffrence in powder charge as the grease grooved bullets ( and the Groove dia Paper Patched) seat deeper into the case. I would start with a load to allow 1/16" compression plus wad to get to the seating depth of the base of your bullet. Your cases capacity will affect the charge wieght also. Measure a bullets depth inthe case. ( crimp groove to base). Slowly fill case to this dimension -.060 from case mouth. Compress with a wadto depth and seat the bullet to touch the wad. Working up add 2 grns of powder and maintain this seating depth. Work up in 2 grain increments then when you find the best 2 spots load at 1 grn between. Theres alot to try and some work some dont some rifle like one thing some another. Some believe in drop tubes some dont. Also consider a lube cookie with paper patched bullets/ The diffrence with bore riding patched bullets is they only are in the case 3/16" or so as the bullet sets in the bore. Experiment with it burn some powder and lead enjoy the trip. As Don said the drop tube isnt necessary. A funnel and pour slowly from a couple inches above it works. Trickling down the side to get a "swirl" effect is a help.

[Don McDowell]

As has been said there is nothing set in stone like with smokeless powder and jacketed bullets. The best in each rifle is a totally individual thing, and the amount of compression needed is really going to depend on how much powder you put in the case to get the accuracy/velocity you and your rifle want.

[ColColt]

I plan on using the Postell 535 gr bullet once I get the mold. Strange, I've only seen it in a single cavity mold, but; that's the one I want to use. I'd like to try the "slick" bullets I've seen for paper patching but that's down the road a ways yet...a different ballgame there.

I'm really not sure whee to start with the powder load. Being a 45-90 case I'd assume at least about 75-80 gr of Goex 2Fg. I don't know if that's enough plus the wad(.030"?) with that boolit to give a little compression or not. Being this is a single shot rifle and no need of a heavy crimp I also assume you can seat it out to expose the top grease groove if necessary.

country gent-I'm a little confused about your definition of how to charge and seat the boolit. Are you saying fill the case up to touching the base of the bullet, if seated to the crimp groove(plus a .060" wad) and compress a sixteenth of an inch? Looks like you'd want to seat the bullet down against the wad to compress. I'm a noob with this hence, the questions.

[country gent]

Compressing to depth allows the bullet to set into the case. Remeber these are normally soft bullets and compressing the powder wad to depth can distort the bullets base. My Lymann postell seats into the case .600 thousandths deep roughly. Starting charge of powder is .530-.540 from case mouth add .030 wad and compress to .600 with crimp die. If possible hand seat the bullet to the wads. If not use a die. Sunday I got a 10 shot droup of 3-3 1/2" at 200 yds 5 of the 10 were in 2 1/2". Paper patched groove dia bullets 1-20 alloy from a ballard mold at 511 grns onion paper .002 thk 2 wraps dried dia .458. Win 45-70 cases. 70 grns 2f Go ex, .187 lube cookie, rem primer.

[ColColt]

This ain't your Daddy's 30-06 loading is it?:) Big difference in loading these and anything else I've reloaded for over the decades-big difference. Yep, I need to get a few books. 2 1/2" at 200 yards is minute of angle. There's a neighbor next door that just bought a Remington 700 in 308 and was showing me a group he got a week or so back that wasn't any better than that at the same distance but he had a Leopold 4-12x scope.

What are these wads made of?

[Randy C]

:coffeecom

[country gent]

Just took one of my 45-90 starline cases 76 grns filled it to the mouth dropped from bedding and mull measure ( 2 swings of handle) Poured in with funnel slowly was .280 down from case mouth. Around 67 grns was .520 down from case mouth. add a .030 wad compress to .600 down and test. Work up in 2 grn increments from here only changing the powder charge. Compression will be increased along with. I cut these wads from old cereal boxes. Veggie wad stock in .o30 and .060 can be purchased from Buffalo arms company ( BACO). I put the colored side up against the lube cookie on the bottom one and down against the lube cookie under the bullet. Buffalo arms has wad compression stems for most dies, Also have belling stems I think that allow for hand seated bullets.
You will need to come up with the dimensions for your rifles chamber / throat. The case was a new case ( my 45-90 hasnt arrived yet either hopefully any day now. C Sharps reproduction ot the Remington Hepburn). Make a dummy round at touching the rifling with the postell bullet. Bullet length - overall length - case length should give depth into case.
Only 06 I owned was a Garand and it was rebarreled to 308 and brought to NM standards before I fired the first round:D . If it had shot 3 1/2" groups at 200yds Id have changed out the new barrel.
Don and others have given me alot of good advice here to help me get started. Saved me alot of horsing around.

[ColColt]

I have no problem with finding the groove diameter...done that many times but never tried to figure out or cared about the chamber dimensions. Normally in a "regular" rifle, I'd neck size the case lightly, seat the bullet way out and smoke the ogive and chamber that round. You could see where the lands engraved the bullet and measure how far into the case they had pushed the bullet. I'd then seat another .020" and call it good to go. Always worked pretty well backed off from touching the lands that much. I have to assume you can do the same to the Sharps.

[country gent]

Yep But bullet tension becomes evan touchier as there is no leverage to chamber / seat the bullet, just the force from your finger. I have used the Stoney Point tool and cases to good advantage I believe hornady makes them now.

[John Boy]

2 1/2" at 200 yards is minute of angle.
Colt - your a half inch too large
http://www.nssf.org/video/facts/MOA.cfm
Precisely it's ... 2.094" not 2.50"

I don't know what you have read thus far loading black powder but you might want to add these to your reading list ...
* http://bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm
* http://members.surfbest.net/aconitum@isp.com/BPCR%20ReLoading.html
* http://www.wahsatchdesperadoes.com/Intro_to_BPCR_Loading.pdf

Nearly all of your questions are answered in these writings!
And as for powder, most folks won't recommend this but you might want to try it in the 45-90 ... Skirmish 1FA. I have and was pleasantly surprised!

[ColColt]

Yep But bullet tension becomes evan touchier as there is no leverage to chamber / seat the bullet, just the force from your finger. I have used the Stoney Point tool and cases to good advantage I believe hornady makes them now.

Good grief...another 100 bucks.

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-OAL-Gauge-Straight-1Each/

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-Comparator-Set-Body-and-14-Bullet-Inserts-1-Each/

http://www.hornady.com/store/Lock-N-Load-45-Insert-.458-Cal-1-Each/

Thanks, John Boy...those are some I haven't seen. I think on my priority list will be the book Mike Venturino has on BPCR and Buffalo Rifles or something to that effect.

[TXGunNut]

Another book is the SPG Primer written by Mike Venturino and Steve Garbe. 1 1/2Fg is worth a try in the 45-90 if FFg doesn't work for you. From what I've seen BPRC rifles tend to have a lot more "personality" than other types of rifles. I haven't figured mine out yet but I'm thumb-seating the boolit after using a drop tube for the powder and an "M" die insert to seat the wad, getting closer but still a long way to go with this rifle.

[ColColt]

I thought I'd try Goex 2Fg first and may order some KIK...that's a new one on me but I understand it's pretty good. I've used Swiss powder in the past and it was superb-not quite as nasty as Goex I found. There's a lot more to BPRC shooting that I expected.

[bigted]

just scratchin the surface. but wait...this aint as complicated as you might surmise. it can and is as easy as you make it. in my experience the experimenting is way more then half the fun and enjoyment. shooting is part of the equation as well...these rifles recoil differently then a bolt and require steady hold on yur rifle gun. boolit takes longer to exit the barrel so there is a lag time that a smokeless generally does not require...add to this the difference in recoil and you have a brand new shooting style.

your experience here is what you make it. I come from a black rifle and bolt gun background and there faster the better was the line of the day...here in BPCR the name is a bit diff. consistency consistency consistency will get it done when you have a good reliable load.

generally speaking the accuracy is what you make of it. these really shine at longer range and seem to settle down with longer yardage where it takes a very good rifle and load in smokeless and bolt rifle to compete with these BPCR rifles at 500 and beyond. add to this that it is with a scoped rifle and smokeless that gets its rear handed to them with some of these feller's and their open sighted rifles shooting the dreaded black powder.:D

these fella's are pointing you in the rite direction and the grumpier fellers are yet to chime in but you will recognize em when they catch up to you. you may have a hard time interpreting the humor some times but dredge out the nuggets as they will steer you in the complete rite direction concerning these wonderful and spectacular rifles and the feeding they require.

welcome to another addiction that seems like there is no coming back from...YIPPY 8-)...:-D...[smilie=1:

[Ramar]

ColColt,
I, too also recommend http://bpcr.net/site_docs-results_sc...dick_trenk.htm .
I also heard there was a bp loading problem in Heaven that couldn't be reconciled by the locals and they had to get Dick to come up early...
Ramar

[cajun shooter]

You may want to forgo the regular Goex 2F and try the Kik and also the new Goex offering by the name of Olde Eynsford. Both Don Mc Dowell and John Boy have tried it and you may want to do a search on the results.
I will give you another step that was not spoken of and that is case annealing. We have a very good shooter who has set many records in this sport that started me to doing it and I'm thankful that he took the time to help me. The member is Kenny Wasserburger and if you have ever read any books or viewed any mile long shots his name will be there. It is a most necessary step if you are serious about your downrange results. Take Care David

[ColColt]

Ramar-That link doesn't work for some reason. I got a "404-Not Found...page does not exist" when trying it.

I've read different comments about KIK. One that comes to mind...

"KIK produced less fouling, and less ‘red’ fouling than Goex. It also produced noticeably more recoil and the recoil was uncomfortable, more like the hard, sharp recoil produced by modern smokeless cartridge guns than black powder muzzle loaders. Down right uncomfortable to shoot at this charge in this gun."

http://www.norwestcompany.com/comparison.htm

On the positive side, this was noted about KIK...

"In this test, KIK brand black powder produced higher velocities than the same volume of both Goex and Elephant black powder in all four test guns. The average velocity produced by KIK brand black powder was 12.4% faster than that produced by the same volume of Goex, and 14.3% faster than that produced by the same volume of Elephant brand. Elephant brand black powder produced lower velocities than either of the other two powders in all 4 guns."

I have annealed cases in the past but did it all wrong back then. I followed the then up to date instructions back then that indicated heating the necks to a cherry red and then tipping them over into water to quench them. I've subsequently read recently, I think in Lyman's Cast Bullet Handbook", that was all wrong and to just heat the necks until a change is noted and then dunk in water.

[ColColt]

I ran across this 2002 article from Goex and they didn't sound very favorable about KIK powder...at least at that point.


"This KIK “sporting” powder has proven to be a marketing failure. GOEX began
shipping in June 2000 from the 26 thousand pound container imported from Slovenia.
Two years later there are still supplies of it in the hands of GOEX master distributors.
The KIK “sporting” powder was priced roughly $1 per pound below the price of GOEX’s
black powder. Putting it in direct competition with Elephant black powder. The KIK
powder was both faster and cleaner-burning compared to Elephant and GOEX black
powders. The simple lack of inherent accuracy killed it on the market.
KIK-Kamink is presently pushing large amounts of cheaply priced black powder
into the European market in an effort to generate a profit. Something the plant has not
done during the past 2 years. It would at this time appear that any dealings between
GOEX, in the U.S., and KIK-Kamink are a thing of the past. KIK-Kamink is now trying
to interest at least one U.S. powder distributor into importing their powder into the U.S.
The U.S. based Elephant Black Powder Company. Unfortunately, KIK-Kamink’s past
relationship with GOEX, Inc. will prevent their re-entry into the U.S. market"

http://www.laflinandrand.com/madmonk/KIK.pdf

I don't know what's happened since that article but not knowing what this rifle will like I ordered 3# of Goex 2F, 1# of Swiss and 1# of KIK...we'll see how they respond in this rifle/caliber.

[Don McDowell]

That that you quoted is not from Goex, it's from a fella by the name of Bill Knight, and while he has a great amount of experience with muzzleloaders and none loading bpcr, it's also plainly evident that he has a severe distaste for anything Goex.
It's a shame you let some not so straight information, that is 11 years old persuade you not to buy a decent sample of some of the finest blackpowder available today.

[ColColt]

Not knowing a lot about it you don't know what to believe. I did order some Swiss as well as KIK and Goex. Some rifles I'm sure like one over another just like with smokeless powder. Some like 4895 while others prefer 4198. You just have to experiment. I've learned what you read on the Internet to take with a grain of salt...especially old articles like that. It didn't dissuade me. That's why I bought all three brands. I'm more familiar with Goes than the others, though.

[Don McDowell]

I don't know how well or even if the search function on this site works, but I'm pretty sure a simple search for KIK here would of turned up more than enough threads and comments to offset the out of date misinfo you quoted.

[ColColt]

I googled "KIK Powder", not even hearing of it or Bill Knight until recently and that was one of the few I first saw that turned up. I didn't mean to upset anyone with what I perceived as being from Goex since that was just at a glance at the very top. I indicated in post #22 that I didn't know what had happened since 2002 and that's why I decided to try it by purchasing some today.

[Don McDowell]

Just mostly trying to point out that as David told you in an earlier post there is a lot of good information right here on this board that will get you started in a positive direction with your new found hobby.

[ColColt]

I started to order more powder than I did but being new to this particular sport, I thought I'd best wait and try the top three I did but in smaller quantities until I see how this rifle likes each. They all seem to be individuals in that respect. I had a 270 Winchester made by Hal Hartley of Lenoir, NC back in 1969 and could not get that rifle to shoot well with anything but the Speer 130 gr boolit and 60 gr of H4831. With that it was a tack driver but it took a while to find that right load.

[Don McDowell]

There currently is no bad blackpowder on the market. And keep in mind that the very least you'll get by with in your rifle will be about 90 rounds to a can of powder. So unless you really get lucky 1 lb of powder isn't likely to tell you a whole lot.

[ColColt]

90 rounds? I plan on having a load that works before then or is that a needed trip to Fantasy Island?

I think I'll have more trouble understanding the compression thing than black powder brand.

[Ramar]

ColColt,
Sorry on the link.
Try this for the Trenk tutorial: http://bpcr.net/site_docs-results_schedules/documents/bp_cartridge_reloading_dick_trenk.htm
Ramar

[Ramar]

ColColt,
I have had problems lately searching this website until I found out about this link provided by I think it was Montana Charlie a member here. He also is one you can trust for great info.
http://www.google.com/cse/home?cx=001951264366462437169:ggn3vg-bjum
Ramar

[ColColt]

Just scanning over those look like a lot of good info. I typed in "powder compression" in the second link and got all sorts of links...many thanks.

[Don McDowell]

90 rounds? I plan on having a load that works before then or is that a needed trip to Fantasy Island?

I think I'll have more trouble understanding the compression thing than black powder brand.

If all you care about is punching a couple holes in a paper target 50 yds down range you can probably do that with less than 10. If you get serious about accuracy it'll take a good deal more than that at 2 or 3 waypoints between the muzzle and the furthest distance you care to shoot, especially if reaching out past 600 yds.
Compression is as simple as can be, lots of folks try to put numbers and such on it, but what it boils down to is you're going to mash however much powder you need to get the velocity and accuracy into the case, until the bullet and wad will comfortably seat on top of that powder charge. So with most 500ish gr 45 caliber grease groove bullets no matter how much powder you dump into the case or how you get it there, the top of that powder column will be .5-.6 from the top of the case mouth.

[ColColt]

No, I'll probably be shooting at a minimum of 100-200 yards on one range. The long distance range goes up to 1000. From what I've gleaned about compression thus far, you seat the bullet in the case and push cartridge into the chamber and let the lands push the bullet back. It's just made contact at that point with the lands and you can go with that initially or seat another .020". Measure how far into the case the bullet goes and fill the case up to that point...say, .500". It's from that point I'm not sue about. I've read where some use a .030 or .060" etc. wad and compress, say .265". There's where I get lost. How do you measure .265" compression? I suppose I need to read a bit more about this.

[CanoeRoller]

One thing you will find is that everyone has a different opinion, and that they each are convinced that what they do works. ( I use a drop tube, and do not use a compression die) and I can get my rifles to shoot quite well (that does not tell you anything though). "quite well" for me might be completely unacceptable to you. I can get most of my Bp rifles to shoot about 2 minutes of accuracy at 200 yards. With long slugs anything less then 200 years does not tell you much about the loads effectiveness as the boolits will not have stabilized enough. I believe my rifles and loads are capable of better that what I typically shoot, but they are limited to what I can accomplish.

Read all you can, and realize that things have changed since most of the books were written, use them as guidelines to start and experiment from there. Once you understand the difference between loading smokeless and BP, you will quickly learn that BP is much more challenging.

[montana_charlie]

I'm really not sure whee to start with the powder load. Being a 45-90 case I'd assume at least about 75-80 gr of Goex 2Fg. I don't know if that's enough plus the wad(.030"?) with that boolit to give a little compression or not. Being this is a single shot rifle and no need of a heavy crimp I also assume you can seat it out to expose the top grease groove if necessary.
Decide (first) if you will start with the bullet touching the lands, or backed off ten thousandths, or so.
Play with a bullet and an empty case until you find out how deep the bullet needs to be seated to get the OAL you want.
Pour powder into the case until it fills to a point just a shade higher than your determined seating depth.
Put your wad in and push the bullet down to it's proper depth for your preferred OAL.

That is your starting load. Because there is so little powder to compress, the bullet won't be damaged if a compression die isn't used.
Disassemble it and weigh the powder so you know how much to use for dupicates, and what the starting point is for further development.

For the next load, increase the powder weight by two grains and repeat the foregoing. You might need a compression die this time, and from now on.

Load the next batch with another two-grain increase, and follow the program until you get to about 85 grains of powder.
You can go higher, but you probably won't need to.

One (or two) of those batches should outperform the rest. Work from there with smaller powder increments until you get something good ... and repeatable.

Then you can think about experimenting with primers ... or wad materials ... or 'whatever'.


What I typed is not "my advice". As a matter of fact, I didn't do it that way when I started because I was in too much hurry to succeed.
It is 'standard advice' which is promoted by many ... some of whom are 'experts'.

CM

[ColColt]

I know this is a different all game but with centerfire rifles I always seated the bullet to touch the lands and then back off about .015" or so. They usually worked well. I'd neck size just a tad to hold the bullet and then chamber the round and measure OAL and seal that amount more. With the BPCR things are a bit different. I assume you can do similar as with the way I use to do it except you have to hand push the cartridge/bullet combo by hand or by pencil eraser to shove the bullet into the lands.

I've read where some seat the bullet by hand. I think I'd get the bullet all caddy wompus doing that and rather do it by seating die...ever so gently. When you say "push the bullet down..." is that in reference to the hand seating method?

Speaking of primers, I've also read some use even LP primers while others use LR Magnum primers. Quite a variation in those methods. Black powder's not that hard to ignite so, I would think either LP primers or standard LR primers would suffice.,

[ColColt]

Charlie-I read back over a couple times your recommendations and it sounds to me the bullet is just barely resting on top of the wad-not really compressed, per se. In adding the two grains more mentioned you're compressing that to get the same height as before, add wad and seat bullet to the same OAL...and so on if adding even two more grains you're still compressing the powder to the same level as earlier and adding wad, seating bullet to initial OAL. Am I in the right ball park? To me, that's not compressing the bullet against the powder, you're just kissing the wad with the base of the bullet. Is that the correct way I'm thinking? Old school when I was loading the 45-70 I'd seat the bullet against the powder until I heard/felt a crunch-no wad.

[montana_charlie]

Charlie-I read back over a couple times your recommendations and it sounds to me the bullet is just barely resting on top of the wad-not really compressed, per se. In adding the two grains more mentioned you're compressing that to get the same height as before, add wad and seat bullet to the same OAL...and so on if adding even two more grains you're still compressing the powder to the same level as earlier and adding wad, seating bullet to initial OAL. Am I in the right ball park? To me, that's not compressing the bullet against the powder, you're just kissing the wad with the base of the bullet. Is that the correct way I'm thinking? Old school when I was loading the 45-70 I'd seat the bullet against the powder until I heard/felt a crunch-no wad.
Powder compression, done with a powder compression die is compressing the powder ... nothing else.

You can use a wad in your load or shoot without one. But most use an over powder wad to protect the bullet base and prevent lube migration.

You can compress with the wad in position, or you can add it after the powder is compressed.
In any case, the surface that you prepare for the bullet to sit on is at the proper depth in the case to give you the desired OAL.

I do it with the wad already inserted, and the powder 'crunches' as the wad goes down.
If I have just increased the powder charge, there will be a greater amount of crunching.
Anyway, the bullet sits firmly on that wad (like a paperweight on a bookshelf) and the wad is solidly supported by compressed powder.

If (future) load development leads to using a thicker wad, I would have to adjust the compression die to account for that change if I didn't want to create a different OAL.


By the way, most measure the distance from the top of the wad to the mouth of the case and use that measurement as their bullet seating depth.
If your cases are not the same length ... or if they change after shooting ... that measurement no longer coincides with your desired OAL.

Therefore, once you get that dummy round to the length you want, ascertain how far the bullet base is from the face of the breechblock. You can figure that by knowing how far it is from the head of the case (where the headstamp is).

Then, when adjusting your compression die, set it for a given distance between the face of the plug and the flat surface of the shellholder in the press.

That way, your bullet will always be the same distance from the breechface, and will always enter the leade to the same point.

CM

[ColColt]

I've read much over the years about being sure you compress the powder/bullet so no air space exists between bullet base and powder. I never was concerned about that in days of your as I cast fairly hard (BHN 15) bullets for the 45-70 and just seated it with a good "crunch". With the advent of a better understanding I didn't have 30+ years ago, I know that bullet was too hard. I'll be casting/buying bullets about 1:20 and knowing how soft that is my former crunch would no doubt deform the base but the nose of the bullet as well.

I said all that to ask this. That bullet doesn't have to crunch anymore once you determine how much the powder/wad needs compressing prior to seating it on top of the wad just so it touches...correct assumption?I think that's where my hang up is. I know how aggravating it can get for those who have been in this for decades so, apologies for the questions. I just don't want to chance ringing a barrel.

[CanoeRoller]

My first accurate loads were drop tubed, then I would seat the boolit, compressing the powder further by about one grease groove with the back end of the boolit. I wanted to make sure that I had no gaps in the cartridge, and as I understood the instructions at the time, I wanted to 'compress' the load literally.

I recently found a little stash of those rounds - and as they were over 20 years old, I decided to pull them apart instead of shoot them. None of the boolits showed any deformation of the base. These were relatively soft rounds - as I recall they were 20-1. So I am not convinced that a small amount of crunch will harm the base of the slug, though a lot of pressure probably would.

[montana_charlie]

I said all that to ask this. That bullet doesn't have to crunch anymore once you determine how much the powder/wad needs compressing prior to seating it on top of the wad just so it touches...correct assumption?
That is correct.
A flat based bullet sitting on a flat wad leaves no airspace between them.
The wad is tight on compressed powder (even if you pushed it in after the powder was compressed), so there is no airspace there, either.

There isn't any other area to wonder about.

CM

[ColColt]

Very good...thank you, sir. I'm beginning to see a little light at the end of the tunnel. As long as I've been into reloading/casting you'd think I'd know some of this but other than the Rem. Rolling Block, I've never had a BPCR before and back then I just wanted to load and shoot without concern for BHN values, wads, Stoney Point equipment drop tubes and blow tubes, etc.

[country gent]

An easy way to get a repeatable measurement from Case head to powder is to make a "standard" Use a piece of 7/16" diameter round stock and trim both ends flat and suare at 1" length. You can no measure from case head to this and subtract 1" and you have your hieght of powder from the case head. This will give you an idea of how much you are compressing the powder if you measure from uncompressed then to compressed. Length can be anything you want but a nominal is easier to work with. Brass, Aluminun, steel, or hard wood will all work.

[John Boy]

Having just bought, though not received yet, a Shiloh Sharps 45-90, I can see from what I've read reloading for it is a bit different than for what I've been use to. I sure hope this thread doesn't last as long as it is going to take for ColColt to receive his new rifle from Shiloh and still the basics of a BPCR round haven't been identified!

Fourty Five posts later, the Col has not spoken what he has learned from the resources provided. Believe it is time for the Col to list the basic individual steps he has learned from the readings in the resources provided. Such basics as Case Preparation - Primer Selection - Grade of Powder of Choice - Powder Column Charging - Wad - Bullet Seating of your selected Postells = Building Finished BPCR Reloaded Round.

So Col, for sequential starters, from your readings, please list each step of Case Preparation in 20 words or less. David has helped you with one of the 1st basic steps - Case Annealing which is part of Case Preparation. I'll help you also with another - Case Mouth Chamfering. Feel free to include Primer Pocket and Flash Hole steps too. After you have listed what you learned for Case Preparation, if you missed some steps, I can provide you with a link for all the steps, including pictures! Then when you have Case Preparation down pat, we'll move onto Primer Selection - then the next and continue. Forget about this ping pong selection of powder for now ... it's down the line in fps and foul control. Okie Dookie?

BTW - if the resources don't discuss some of the steps ... your Internet Browser will be your best learning friend

[Don McDowell]

I recently found a little stash of those rounds - and as they were over 20 years old, I decided to pull them apart instead of shoot them. None of the boolits showed any deformation of the base. These were relatively soft rounds - as I recall they were 20-1. So I am not convinced that a small amount of crunch will harm the base of the slug, though a lot of pressure probably would.

You can get by with a small amount of compression with the bullet. BUT it is not the bullet base that will be damage by compressing the powder when seating the bullet. The base is supported by the case walls and has no where to go, never mind it's flat surface being able to withstand tons of force. Ever notice the only thing that survives from the bullet landing head on with a steel plate is the base?
It's the nose that will be mishapened when compressing the powder while seating the bullet. It may not be readily visible to the eye , but a close examination of the nose escpecially at the ogive and at the top of the driving band will almost always be "swollen". Unless you are shooting a hard alloy or the bullet seating stem is a perfect fit , you will deform the bullet nose when seating and compressing the powder at the same time. It may or may not show up on target at midrange distances , but it will show up when you start to reach past the 600 yd mark.
That same bullet smooshin is where a lot of the "mysterious" leading comes from and the occasional "unexplained flier".

[Don McDowell]

I've read much over the years about being sure you compress the powder/bullet so no air space exists between bullet base and powder. I never was concerned about that in days of your as I cast fairly hard (BHN 15) bullets for the 45-70 and just seated it with a good "crunch".
. I just don't want to chance ringing a barrel.

Don't get sucked to far into the " no hard bullet" thing. Often times with some bullet shapes/designs #2 alloy is about right. 16-1 is actually the alloy used by Springfield for the 45-70.
As long as the bullet is seated within a hairs breadth or so of the powder, the chances of ringing a chamber are pretty slim. Ever read what the distances between the opw and the bullet base used by some of the old time Schuetzen shooters and others that breech seated their bullets?

[ColColt]

From all I've learned about bullet alloy depends on chamber pressure. Old BP cartridges didn't generate a lot of pressure in comparison with modern smokeless rounds at 40-60K psi, that's why I figured an alloy of around 1:20 would suit these rifles best. Some, I've read, go as far as 1:30. It all depends on load and your rifle.


Ever read what the distances between the opw and the bullet base used by some of the old time Schuetzen shooters and others that breech seated their bullets?

Nope, but I take it there was space.

[Don McDowell]

20-1 is a good safe bet for most bpcr loads. Some folks find great results with 40-1 and some find #2 alloy to work quite well. And some get along great with an alloy that comes from what ever they happen to find that will melt and pour a good bullet.

[ColColt]

With the low pressures involved with BP(maybe 22-28K at best) the softer alloys would probaly work best to obturate the bullet...most of the time. Like everything else, it's a matter of experimentation. I have a fair share of pure lead, LT, few pounds of RotoMetals tin, WW's and 50/50 lead and LT so, I can mix about any ratios.

[montana_charlie]

From all I've learned about bullet alloy depends on chamber pressure. Old BP cartridges didn't generate a lot of pressure in comparison with modern smokeless rounds at 40-60K psi, that's why I figured an alloy of around 1:20 would suit these rifles best.
Yes, it does depend on chamber pressure, but when comparing BP with smokeless, there is a difference in how that chamber pressure is developed.
Smokeless (generally speaking) starts a buildup of pressure when ignited ... and the bullet starts to move.
As the pressure increases in accordance with the formula of the propellant, the bullet continues to accelerate at an ever increasing rate until it reaches full speed (and full pressure) at some point ... perhaps halfway down the barrel.

When you light up a charge of black powder, it hits full chamber pressure right now ... likely before the bullet even starts to move.

That difference is why the smokeless guys need bullets that are full groove diameter ... or two thousandths over groove. They need that complete bore seal before the powder starts to burn.
By comparison, you can shoot a bullet noticeably undersized for the bore when you shoot BP. Guys with original Trapdoors are often required to do that due to the bores being larger than the chamber throats in some of those old rifles.

I don't use 'harder' alloys for anything, but I bet that even Lyman #2 will bump up instantly when pushed by BP.

CM

[ColColt]

Shiloh barrels, from what I've been told, are .458" for their 45 caliber rifles. I'm use to sizing bullets. Would that groove diameter be good for it or go to .459"? Or, do you suppose a little experimentation is in order for each rifle? I've never used undersized bullets before but then again, I haven't had a BPCR either.

[Don McDowell]

If that is a B serial numbered gun and has the original barrel on it. .458 will be a good place to start.
If no one has been dinking around in that chamber with a reamer of some sort, unless you're shooting a bullet with tapered driving bands, seating the bullet to the driving band will likely be as far out as you can seat the bullet without using a camming tool.
If there is loaded ammo with that rifle. I would suggest you shoot some of it first , then if it shoots well dissect a cartridge and if the recipe is not already noted, try and copy the recipe from your dissected round as closely as possible.

[ColColt]

I'll know about the serial number tomorrow. It came today at the dealer but they hadn't checked it as of late this afternoon so, I'll go tomorrow and pick it up. Since part of the goodies that came with it were bullets and brass, I'll check the seating depth. From the looks of things some or all of those cases are already primed so I'm assuming I can get a bullet into the case to push into the chamber/throat. I don't believe there's any loaded ammo.

I ordered a mold from Steve Brooks that's a clone of the Postel bullet today. It will probably be a few weeks to deliver from what he told me.

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/new_postal_bullet3_zps6d8b364d.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/new_postal_bullet3_zps6d8b364d.jpg.html)

[montana_charlie]

Shiloh barrels, from what I've been told, are .458" for their 45 caliber rifles. I'm use to sizing bullets. Would that groove diameter be good for it or go to .459"? Or, do you suppose a little experimentation is in order for each rifle? I've never used undersized bullets before but then again, I haven't had a BPCR either.
I would never recommend that somebody use an undersized bullet unless some condition made that necessary.
Shiloh barrels are thought to be very uniform, so .458" is probably a good choice, but slugging the barrel is never a waste of time.

On the other hand, one bit of advice that is also pretty common is ...
Use the fattest bullet that the chamber will accomodate.
A chamber cast would be the key for determining that.

Beyond that, almost everybody will recommend that you only size a bullet if you have no other choice.
If you are buying a custom mould, it only stands to reason that you tell the maker which alloy to use in his figuring, and exactly what diameter you want the bullet to drop at.

CM

[country gent]

I have the lyman version of the postell ( I converted it to nose pour a few years ago). It is a very good shooting bullet in my rifle. It does empty a lead pot fast though. You should be very pleased with that bullet.

[Gunlaker]

Don't get sucked to far into the " no hard bullet" thing. Often times with some bullet shapes/designs #2 alloy is about right. 16-1 is actually the alloy used by Springfield for the 45-70.
As long as the bullet is seated within a hairs breadth or so of the powder, the chances of ringing a chamber are pretty slim. Ever read what the distances between the opw and the bullet base used by some of the old time Schuetzen shooters and others that breech seated their bullets?

Back before I knew any better I shot some really nice groups with a Postell bullet that was cast in linotype.

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

ColColt you'll like that Brooks mould. I like mine so much that I'm just waiting for an excuse to order another :-)

If it's a Bryan era rifle I'm sure it'll really like that bullet. My Shiloh in .45-70 is not very picky about what bullet you put into it. It shoots pretty darn well with even with the cheap RCBS 530gr silhouette bullet. My best results have been with the BACO Money bullet, although it's likely because I've spent the most time with that one lately.

Chris.

[ColColt]

I told Steve I wanted the mold to drop a .460" bullet using 1:20 alloy. That way if the groove diameter is .459" I'll be right on using them from the mold. If exactly .458", I can size .001 or just use as is from the mold as long as it fits the chamber and shoots well. Down the road a ways I may try the Creedmoor bullet to see how it shoots.

I'm going over today and pick the rifle up. Tracking info indicted it got to the dealer at 1:15 yesterday so it should be checked in by now. Hoo Ra!! Not being 35 or even 50 anymore I'm just a little concerned about the recoil...well, not so much that but the fact I don't have the meat on my shoulders I did back then. I'm a bit "bonier", if that's a word, than I was at 50 and have lost around 40 pounds since then. I may have to exhort to a shoulder pad of some sort. I'll find out come range day. Being on three blood thinners for about eight years now, I bruise a lot easier.

[ColColt]

I just got back from picking it up. What a beauty...what a heavy beauty! It took a while prying it from grubby hands at the LGS. Everyone was wanting to fondle it and most were talking about the beauty of the wood. It does have the "B" serial number...B7586. It came with an undetermined amount as yet amount of bullets and cases along with loading containers and a set of Lyman dies. I checked the weight and diameter of the bullets and they were 530 gr and .458" with cases right at .400-.401". The head stamp had "Bell-45-90" on them. Most of the others cases are Starline. There was also a box of 50 bullets from Buffalo Arms, 535 gr Postell's. At any rate, she's home and presently being loved on by yours truly.:) Just a few pics...

http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4113a_zps6d8e2501.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4113a_zps6d8e2501.jpg.html)
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4114a_zpsf8039e06.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4114a_zpsf8039e06.jpg.html)
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4115a_zps8e9b00ed.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4115a_zps8e9b00ed.jpg.html)
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4117a_zps43c72de4.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4117a_zps43c72de4.jpg.html)
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4122_zpsc709399c.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4122_zpsc709399c.jpg.html)
http://i180.photobucket.com/albums/x220/ColColt/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4123_zps00dc3121.jpg (http://s180.photobucket.com/user/ColColt/media/Gun%20Related%20Stuff/_DEF4123_zps00dc3121.jpg.html)

[Gunlaker]

Looks beautiful.

Chris.

[CanoeRoller]

It is a shame having a rifle that nice. You might become afraid of putting a scratch in it, and never use it.

You will have to spend lots of extra $ on gun oil on hand to treat all the drool that other folks leave on it.

[ColColt]

Yep, I think I'll have to order a special cleaner for wood and metal to clean it up. Meanwhile, I've just used a towel.

[country gent]

A beautiful rifle there it is screaming to be put to use and show its true colors. Wait till you get it to the range and others there see it. You will spend more time showing it off than shooting for awhile.

[montana_charlie]

That's a pretty one.
And, I kinda like the 'uncluttered look' of that single trigger.

CM

[ColColt]

I'm not enamored with the trigger. It has like a two stage pull, for lack of a better word. When you start applying pressure to it there's a sort of click, then a bit more pressure and another click. Then, it releases the sear and hammer falls. The weight's not all that bad it's just the creep, I suppose you'd call it. Maybe the mechanism just need a bit of oil but I wouldn't know where to start finding where that is. There's a lever on the side I haven't figured out yet. I'm assuming that's to get to the breech block for cleaning. No info about that was included.

I took a fired case included with the rifle and sized just enough of the neck to get the bullet to stay put and chambered the round by pushing in on the cartridge with a pencil till it would go no further, retracted it and measure the OAL with the Postell bullets included, they measure 1.420". The OAL was 3.208". Does that sound about right? I had assumed the bullet seated in this way would leave one grease groove exposed but fully seated the mouth of the brass came right to the bottom of the drive band. It must have a short chamber.

[Don McDowell]

I had assumed the bullet seated in this way would leave one grease groove exposed but fully seated the mouth of the brass came right to the bottom of the drive band. It must have a short chamber

Well that's a pretty good sign that no one has been digging around in that chamber with a reamer of some sort. Recall I informed you a few posts back that if it was indeed an unaltered Shiloh chamber you would have to seat a regular bullet to the driving band, and that to seat a bullet further out it would need to be a bullet with tapered driving band.

[ColColt]

This is the Lyman/Postell 535 gr bullet. He included a box of 50 from Buffalo Arms with the rifle and on the box it shows a .458" diameter, 535 gr #457132. I'll try that length and then seat it about .008" shorter to barely miss the lands. I have a mold for this same bullet so there won't be any difference once I start casting.

Included in this package were also two plastic J&J case holders. There's a sticker on the side indicating the powder type(2Fg) Weight(70 gr) but no seating depth. That would have been helpful but I think I'm good with the way I've done it. I would have thought he could have gotten more than 70 gr in that case unless he put a thick wad over the powder.

From the mouth of the case to the bottom of the bullet in the case is .625" so, I'll fill the case to that point, add the .030" was and compress till I get that .625", seat for an OAL of 3.208" and I should be good to go.

[Don McDowell]

That'll be around 75 grs of powder. Should be real mild on the recoil, but you won't know anything about the accuracy until you get a chance to put it on paper.

[Gunlaker]

ColColt I don't remember the Shiloh specs on the .45-90 chamber bu if it's anything like their .45-70 chambers it'll have a short freebore. IIRC it's 0.050". It should shoot very well with no lube grooves exposed.

Chris.

[ColColt]

Pushed right into the lands the OAL is right at 3.210 with the Postell bullet. I'll probably try a series that length and then seat about .010" shorter. Who knows what it may like length wise. I experimented with several bolt action rifles similarly and most liked a length just shy of touching the lands by .010-.020". With BP it may be a bit different. I decided to order a Pact "sissy" bag for my shoulder as I don't know how it will recoil and my shoulders are a tad more boney than in the past. With a 30" barrel and 12 pounds it shouldn't be too bad, though even with that military butt plate..

[TXGunNut]

PAST recoil pad is always in my shooting bag and I'm not afraid to use it. Nice rifle! Congrats!

[ColColt]

I ordered the "Magnum" pad since I don't know what I'm up against as yet. That steel military butt plate looks like it could punch hard. Several years ago I weighed 190 pounds. I had to put myself of a diet because of being told I was a border line diabetic. I decided I wasn't taking no more pills and definitely no insulin shots. So, I lost down to my current 145 pounds and with that and age I don't have a lot of shoulder as I did, hence the thoughts of the pad...hope that it won't be that necessary but, I'll find out. I don't think it will be any worse than that light, 20 inch Calvary model Rolling block I had in 45-70.

[Gunlaker]

I think that recoil wise it'll be fine. For prone you'll want that recoil pad but it won't be a problem. My .45-90 is a CSA 1885 and it's probably 1/2 pound lighter than yours and the recoil is quite manageable. If you find it a little stout you can take some of the edge off by switching to Fg powder. My current load uses Fg ( although 88gr of it ) in my .45-90 and it's more accurate than anything I've been able to work up using Goex FFg Express.

Chris.

[ColColt]

I doubt I'll be shooting it prone. Most likely just from the bench or cross sticks and there won't be much of that since once I get down and get "cross legged" it's not easy to get back up!:)

I guess I got concerned looking at the length of that brass and bullet-biggest bullet I'll ever cast at 1.420" and 535 gr...time will tell. I ordered the three major manufacturers powder, Goex, KIK and Swiss in all 2fg granulation. I think I'll try Swiss 1.5 next go around.

[montana_charlie]

I ordered the "Magnum" pad since I don't know what I'm up against as yet.
I have that PAST magnum pad, too, and it really does absorb the energy. But I found it to be to 'hard' on the surface.
It would not form any 'pocket' for the butt to set in, so I had a little bit of 'side-slip' at each shot. it caused some horizontal stringing.

I switched to the Bob Allen pad, which is a bit thinner and more 'flexible'. I prefer it to the PAST.

CM

[ColColt]

There seems to be a difference it the shape depending on where you buy one.

http://www.bob-allen.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=398B

http://www.gamaliel.com/boballenrecoilpads/bob_allen_absorb_a_coil_harness_rifle.asp

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/recoil-parts/recoil-shoulder-pads/bob-allen-absorb-a-coil-harness-prod23169.aspx

[montana_charlie]

There seems to be a difference it the shape depending on where you buy one.

http://www.bob-allen.com/inventoryD.asp?item_no=398B

http://www.gamaliel.com/boballenrecoilpads/bob_allen_absorb_a_coil_harness_rifle.asp

http://www.brownells.com/shooting-accessories/recoil-parts/recoil-shoulder-pads/bob-allen-absorb-a-coil-harness-prod23169.aspx
Actually, the descriptions at the first and last links are correct.
The second link is incorrect in calling that (pictured) pad the 'rifle' model.
It is their 'shotgun' pad, as shown in the third link.

The one shown at the top link is the rifle pad, and it is the right-hand version of the rifle model.

You can get a better price here ...
http://www.opticsplanet.com/bob-allen-shooting-accessories-aoc-harness-rifle.html

CM

[ColColt]

Thanks-I've ordered from them before, in fact, that's where I got the RCBS Cowboy dies for the 38-55.