New Tool from Lyman?

[W.R.Buchanan]

IN the new Rifle Magazine there is an ad for Lyman's new Case Trimming Tool.

I was kind of flabbergasted when I saw this ad since this tool is a direct knockoff of the simple Lee Case Trimming Tool.

What I was flabbergasted about is why a company like Lyman would market a tool like this in the first place, and secondarily why they would knock off another promenent company who is and has been producing this product for 40+ years.

I originally thought that the patent had ran out, but then figured that happened 23+ years ago.

I take personal exception to this type of business practice since I myself have been knocked off repeatedly by no talent *****s trying to make a buck off my ideas and development work. It just takes money out of my wallet, but what is really insulting is the fact that our legal system protects the thief, and makes it nearly impossible to protect yourself without huge expendatures of cash to lawyers.

Some will say,,"why didn't you patent it?" Well if you'd ever actually went thru the patent process you'd know that it costs a bunch of money to do it, and even after that you have to spend more money to defend it, with little chance of recovering that money after the litigation. Really nobody cares about patents any more, and the fact that that it costs so much to defend one is the exact reason why.

Next,,, I am pretty sure this new tool is going to be more expensive than the Lee Tool, unless Lyman is having it made in China, which would be two more good reasons not to buy it.

Why is it that Corporate America can't act right?

I got into it with the Marketing Director of Lyman two SHOT Shows ago about them producing their Receiver Sights out of aluminum when everyone wants the older steel ones. She said nobody wants receiver sights any more because the shooters all want scopes. I told her she was sadly mis-informed.

Then I said, then if that's true then how come your vintage sights sell for so much on Ebay?

Reply: "We don't care!"

Then to come out with this feeble attempt at a new product?

I think Lyman may be on it last leg.

Randy

[TenTea]

Imitation is the highest form of flattery.

When combined with a drill press, the Lee case trimmer set up is a joy to operate.
Quick, easy, efficient, clean and inexpensive...they got it right.



eta: When companies (just like people and governments) are at the top of the heap for a long time, they tend to get bloated, arrogant and out of touch with their roots and common folks and that is when common sense leaves the room too.

[UNIQUEDOT]

I've had this tool for a few months (picked it up when it first came out) it is made in the USA is heavier and more comfortable to use than the Lee tool and it's actually cheaper than the Lee when you consider that it comes with several pilots and also comes with the drill press attachment and uses standard Lyman cutters as a plus. The pilots are not of the same quality as those from Lee and the accuracy of the trim relies on the quality of the shellholders being used with it. I do feel that the Lee shellholders give a more accurate trim just as I feel that Lee's handpriming tools (which Lyman along with everyone else is now copying as well) give more accurate primer seating than the ones I've tried that use press shellholders.

I do like the Lyman hand trimmer though and I've modified one of the cutters to work with Lee pilots, but I still use my Lee trimmers as well whilst my lathe trimmer rarely sees use. The lyman cutters will also screw into a lyman utility crank and accept the pilots so that it can be used to trim cases, but I've had an adapter for years that allows the Lyman utility crank to be used with Lee's trimmers. I don't use any of them like that or by hand for that matter except for doing small amounts for test loads anyway as I generally use a drill press or hand drill with them.

[fred2892]

Wonder where LEE got the idea from? Let's see, a cutter attached to a different length rod for each calibre........

http://img.tapatalk.com/d/13/06/04/my3ume4a.jpg

[W.R.Buchanan]

Fred: that Ideal trimmer does not use a pilot to control the length of the cut like the Lee tool does. It uses a threaded collar on the hand crank to set the length.

It can also be used for a wide range of case lengths since the entire tool can be adjusted for length. That tool bears no resemblence whatsoever to the Lee Trim Tool.

There is about 50 different ways to trim cases. I own a machine shop, and I have several more than most people do.

My point is the world doesn't really need another Lee Trim Tool. Lee got it right in the first place and reinventing the wheel is not going to make anyone any money. The Lee Tool is $7 for the cutter and lock stud and $6 for the pilot and case holder. So $13 for the whole show. so what if you make a set up that is only $12? It's pointless.

Especially when they have items in their past that they should be making but have chosen to drop due to recommendations from their marketing division.

Why would you tool up to produce something already being done successfully by the inventor, and a low profit margin item, when you should be making stuff you already have made in the past but dropped due to inaccurate marketing input that is a high profit margin item?

Lots more money in Receiver Sights than Trim Tools? I would pay $150 for a New Real Lyman #48 for a Springfield before I would buy a "vintage one" off Ebay for the same amount (if I was lucky enough to actually win the damn thing.) same goes for #66LA's for Marlins which routinely go for $150+ for nice ones.

I don't want their aluminum versions and most people don't want them either. That alone could explain why their marketing research keeps coming up with diminishing viability for their line of receiver sights. It's not that everyone wants scopes, it's because nobody wants an aluminum version of a great sight. Also Williams has been doing the aluminum receiver sights for nearly as long as Lyman has been making steel ones, and their products are about half the price of Lymans Aluminum product.

In effect they traded exclusivity for competition from someone already established in the market. Not exactly a smart move.

I see this company as having major management deficiencies. My.02!

Randy

[VHoward]

If you read that ad again, you will notice that it said a different rod is required for each caliber case. That says to me that it is a pilot gage for legnth. So Lee stole the idea from Ideal.

[UNIQUEDOT]

$6 for the pilot and case holder So $13 for the whole show. so what if you make a set up that is only $12? It's pointless.

And the Lyman comes with six pilots, the universal shellholder adapter and lockstud, drill press attachment and cutter for only 25 bucks. six Lee pilots alone cost 36 bucks.

[smithnframe]

What development work have you done?

[9.3X62AL]

eta: When companies (just like people and governments) are at the top of the heap for a long time, they tend to get bloated, arrogant and out of touch with their roots and common folks and that is when common sense leaves the room too.

Colt and S&W are classic examples of this tendency, as is Lyman. Their contracting respective market shares reflect that reality, but their management groups seem oblivious to the obvious.

[MT Chambers]

Lyman prolly just makes it better or with better materials.

[W.R.Buchanan]

vH: the rods are different diameter pilots for different calibers not different length pilots that control the depth of cut. The two tools bear no resemblence whatsoever.

smithnframe: I designed and manufactured the Omniturn CNC lathe, the Bobcad CNC Routers, and I currently market a kit for raising the seats in Jeep TJ's. I have sold 9000+ kits over the last 15 years and have had exactly 2 returns for refund.

Is that enough development for ya?

Randy

[gandydancer]

vH: the rods are different diameter pilots for different calibers not different length pilots that control the depth of cut. The two tools bear no resemblence whatsoever.

smithnframe: I designed and manufactured the Omniturn CNC lathe, the Bobcad CNC Routers, and I currently market a kit for raising the seats in Jeep TJ's. I have sold 9000+ kits over the last 15 years and have had exactly 2 returns for refund.

Is that enough development for ya?

Randy

Good one W.R. I wonder if there is any one on this site who never casts or reloads a dang thing? who just sets back and waits to piss and moan about anything to help make their day? :bigsmyl2: [smilie=s:

[Bent Ramrod]

The only thing the old Lyman Ideal Shell Trimmer had in common with the Lee was the center rod down the shell. However, on the Lyman, all it did was hold the case in place. Not very well, either. The sliding cradle and the threaded end with the lock nut set the cut depth, and therefore the length, of the shell. After a fashion. The cutting operation with the Lyman/Ideal really needed a vise or a third hand and the frame and setup was flimsy and prone to slippage. The tool was pretty much a joke, and did not last long on the market.

The beauty of the Lee tool is that it sets the cut to a standard length automatically and you can do it by hand, or with a drill, without any further adjustment. It's robust, inexpensive, nearly idiot-proof and amazingly successful. I wish I'd thought of it.

If there is any reason for outrage here, I don't see it. Everybody copies Pacific's 7/8" x 14 dies and RCBS's snap in shell holders and O frame compound leverage presses. Even Lee Precision. Good stuff is going to be copied.

You do need to be a rich corporation to obtain, retain, and enforce a patent nowadays. But it can be done. The protection is fading fast, though. Now the Patent Office recognizes "First to File" as the inventor, not necessarily the one who came up with the invention. A master industrial spy will probably be the next Thomas Edison, patent-wise.

[Junior1942]

.....Especially when they have items in their past that they should be making but have chosen to drop due to recommendations from their marketing division. RandyLike at least 50 discontinued molds.

[9.3X62AL]

Like at least 50 discontinued molds.

No kidding! Lyman is a finalist for the Oblivious To Reality Award, Rip Van Winkle Division. They face stiff competition from ammo makers and reloading component manufacturers, though--it's too close to call at this point.

I hope all is well with you, Junior!

[Junior1942]

......I hope all is well with you, Junior!Thanks! Got a VA appointment the 5th of next month, so I'll know then if all is well. I'm feeling fine except for arthritis.

[dudel]

vH: the rods are different diameter pilots for different calibers not different length pilots that control the depth of cut. The two tools bear no resemblence whatsoever.

smithnframe: I designed and manufactured the Omniturn CNC lathe, the Bobcad CNC Routers, and I currently market a kit for raising the seats in Jeep TJ's. I have sold 9000+ kits over the last 15 years and have had exactly 2 returns for refund.

Is that enough development for ya?

Randy
Game set match - Randy,

Sometimes the lawyers get it right. Don't ask the question, if you don't know the answer!

[canyon-ghost]

And if Smithnframe was just asking an innocent question, you just bit his head off. Not everyone is arguing with you.

[mdi]

Much ado about nothing. I haven't held a Lyman trimmer, yet, and do have several Lee trimmers. I think there is a big difference between the two from what I can see in pics. There is also a lot of difference between "knock-off" and producing a tool of similar design (are all the "O" style presses knock-offs of one developed years ago, or just a similar design? If so, then every automobile is a knock-off of Ford's Model T). I'm going to get a Lyman set for rifles soon and don't think I'll be infringing on Lee's developments or encouraging Lyman's "copying" an already produced product.

[W.R.Buchanan]

The reason I am touchy about this subject is because I have been ripped off several times, and it cost me dearly.

The Omniturn CNC lathe was knocked off by the company I was selling it to. Changing just enough to get by any patent I would have put on it. I tried every way there was to get at them. It cost me better than $5 million in lost sales(low estimate) and $1000 more every time they sell a new machine. They have sold nearly 7500 of the machines they built using my design. 42 were built by me, and the rest were built by someone else who made the $1000 each.

If you go on Ebay and search Jeep Seat Risers you will see between 2 and 5 outfits knocking my product off right today. The newest guy actually bought a kit from me and is copying it exactly! Since it's inception that kit has been copied by no less than 20 outfits. They usually hang around for a year or so.

One of the most persistent offenders worked for me, and when he got fired for taking my product and putting his name on it and selling it as his own, he got pissed and has been selling a version for several years. Haven't seen his for a year or so.

His sales are small simply because in his description he states "he is knocking me off to provide competition in the market place." in other words he sees nothing wrong with stealing someone else's ideas and using them for his own profit.

I consider them all to be thieves! They are taking money out of my pocket, and stealing my ideas and hard work.

My product consists of 8 aluminum blocks, 8 bolts and 8washers, and a plastic bag, knocking it off requires the skills of a complete Moron!

Kind of like Lyman knocking off Lee's tool. It was too simple and easy to just let alone.

Randy

[seagiant]

The reason I am touchy about this subject is because I have been ripped off several times, and it cost me dearly.

The Omniturn CNC lathe was knocked off by the company I was selling it to. Changing just enough to get by any patent I would have put on it. I tried every way there was to get at them. It cost me better than $5 million in lost sales(low estimate) and $1000 more every time they sell a new machine. They have sold nearly 7500 of the machines they built using my design. 42 were built by me, and the rest were built by someone else who made the $1000 each.

If you go on Ebay and search Jeep Seat Risers you will see between 2 and 5 outfits knocking my product off right today. The newest guy actually bought a kit from me and is copying it exactly! Since it's inception that kit has been copied by no less than 20 outfits. They usually hang around for a year or so.

One of the most persistent offenders worked for me, and when he got fired for taking my product and putting his name on it and selling it as his own, he got pissed and has been selling a version for several years. Haven't seen his for a year or so.

His sales are small simply because in his description he states "he is knocking me off to provide competition in the market place." in other words he sees nothing wrong with stealing someone else's ideas and using them for his own profit.

I consider them all to be thieves! They are taking money out of my pocket, and stealing my ideas and hard work.

My product consists of 8 aluminum blocks, 8 bolts and 8washers, and a plastic bag, knocking it off requires the skills of a complete Moron!

Kind of like Lyman knocking off Lee's tool. It was too simple and easy to just let alone.

Randy

Hi Randy,
You had me laughing out loud on that one! Not at you, but with you because what can you do? People today have unbelievable balls to do some of the things they do! I have tried my best after an incident with Lyman over a melting pot, to get everything that I had made by them off my reloading bench! I think the only thing left is a Lyman 55 powder measure!

[W.R.Buchanan]

Greg: It is freakin' amazing the balls people have now. They will steal from you right from under your nose and dare you to do something about it. In many cases the law protects them better than it protects you.

It is worse in the financial industry and I have noticed a marked decline in business ethics since the year 2000 when God didn't show up. It seems like since God didn't show up either he isn't watching, or he doesn't care anymore, so they can do whatever they please.

I just don't know how people live with themselves. But I watched the movie American Psycho the other night and one of his lines in the beginning was about how he looked real nice and put on a happy face but was really not even there.

I think a lot of people are like this, just shells of bodies with nobody home and their actions are pretty much just rote responses to stimulus acting on them by the rest of the world. Kind of like insects.

Really no good answer for their behavior, and their behavior has cost me a ton of money,

I don't like them or their ilk. I consider them to be "men without honor."

Randy

[Slow Elk 45/70]

Here-Here....we all have our ideas..there are some that agree and others who don't:bigsmyl2:

[kywoodwrkr]

Has anyone checked the Lee website to see if they still promote the case trimmer?
I didn't see it on their website.
Sold rights?

[jcwit]

Has anyone checked the Lee website to see if they still promote the case trimmer?
I didn't see it on their website.
Sold rights?

This one is still there.

http://leeprecision.com/case-conditioning-tools/case-trimming-tools/

[Dutchman]

Who makes Lyman mold handles now?

Saeco!


Dutch - who really misses Lyman mold handles

[Tarkid]

Yeah, the Lyman handles are not nearly as good as they used to be. I have a pair that I bought 30+ years ago and they are still fine. A new pair I got last year didn't last two casting sessions. Pretty sad.

[jcwit]

I make my own on a lathe using hickory sledge hammer handles purchased at a flea market. I also turn the handle to accept a copper tubing sweat on cap, then drill the handle for the sq. part of the mould watching the direction of the grain before inserting the mould.