.45ACP leading, can't find the sweet spot...

[destrux]

I'm still trying to get rid of the leading with my .45ACP loads for my 1911. I'm using 200gr Lee SWC (tumble lube style bullet) cast from air cooled clip-on WW. They measure (with a micrometer) to .453" and my bore slugs at .451". I've made double sure that my cases are expanded enough and aren't shaving lead, and that my taper crimp die is only taking the bell off the case and I'm not using any sort of lee crimp dies. I'm loading on a Dillon square deal.

First I was tumble lubing the bullets, and water dropping them, and loading them over 4.2gr Bullseye. That was leading the grooves in the first inch of the barrel after the chamber, pretty heavily, after just 21 rounds fired. I learned that there's no good reason to water drop bullets (to about 18BHN) for .45ACP because bullets around BHN9 are about ideal for 13,000psi chamber pressure.

So I cast some and air cooled them (I figure they should be about 12BHN?) because I don't have any pure lead to alloy down to anything softer.

I loaded up more, but this time with 4.5gr Bullseye, and they leaded a little less but still pretty bad, and right after the chamber again.

So I figured maybe the Lee liquid Alox is just not cutting it, and I pan lubed them with some home made beeswax/vaseline (50/50 mix) lube. With the same 4.5gr Bullseye load they leaded only very slightly less.

So I read that a bunch of people run 5.0gr Bullseye behind a 200gr SWC bullet cast from WW for IPDA, and that it didn't lead (no mention of lube type though). So I loaded up some of these but rather than pan lubing again I just tumble lubed them. After 21 shots the whole bore was leaded worse than I've ever seen, even on the top of the rifling lands. Is this just a flat out lube failure of the liquid alox?

So any ideas on where to go from here? Is the Lee liquid alox insufficient and the beeswax/vaseline lube I mixed also inadequate? Should I try another lube? I have HP-38 powder, would switching to that do any good? Is my alloy still too hard for .45ACP?

I can't imagine it being a bullet size issue, I'm already .002" over groove diameter and I've checked pulled bullets and they are not being sized down during loading and they drop into the chamber easily.

Still haven't figured out the leading problem with my .40S&W either, although I was hoping .45ACP would be easier to solve since it's supposed to be an "easy" cast bullet cartridge to load. [smilie=b:

[Pitchnit]

I was having the same issues. Went back to .452 per several members suggestions. Try setting you aol to just see the rifling engraving the shoulder of the bullet after chambering a round. Im running 1.255 with my Lee 200 LSWC. I seat so that when I drop a round in the barrel the round is .005-.010 proud of the back of the barrel.

[SciFiJim]

.45ACP is an easy cartridge to cast and load for.

Just exploring ideas.
As a curiosity, how large a boolit can you seat and still drop test it into your chamber. Anything over .452 won't chamber fully on my Kimber, even when pressing with my thumb.
If you have an exceptionally large chamber, perhaps the boolits aren't aligned with the center of the bore and are skidding on firing.

Do your boolits measure .453 in both directions (on the part line and 90 degrees from the part line)? What do you measure, (the base band, the front driving band, the middle tumble lube area)?

Instead of tumble lubing with straight Alox, try the 45-45-10 lube that Recluse came up with. Many have used it with success when they have failed with Alox.


OK, reaching way out to left field. Could there be copper fouling in the beginning of the barrel that is galling the lead to cause the leading? Might point back to an over-sized chamber and my first point.

[Larry Gibson]

Add 2 % tin to your WW alloy (3.2 oz to 10 lbs WW alloy) and AC the bullets 7-10 days before use. Get a Lee .451 or .452 sizer. After the bullets age harden the 7 - 10 days as per the Lee directions TL well and let dry over night (24 hours). Size in the Lee ,451 or .452. Then TL again and let dry at least 24 hours. Load over 5 gr Bullseye.

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

Try 5.5-5.6 gr of HP38 (same as W231) under that boolit. .452 diam should be good.

Bill

[runfiverun]

I think I wouldn't go quite that high with the 231.
5.0 is bout where I am usually at when I use it.
you could slow the powder down and see if that helps.
you could also pull a boolit from a loaded round and see what you are really putting in the chamber.
Dillon dies are jaxketed bullet designed.
you might just need to back a few things off.

[hermans]

Some years ago I had the same leading problem in both my 1911's. My boolit fit was perfect, my boolits measures 10-12 BHN which according to the old hands here was just about right. It was also preached here that the taper crimp should be between 0.469 - 0.470, not more, on inspection I found mine to be much more, adjusted the crimping die out to the correct setting as above....and all my leading was gone in both pistols.
Just thought I would mention this here....

[thumper,eh?]

If you are getting leading at the breech, the alloy is too hard for the application. Leading at the muzzle indicates the alloy is too soft for the application. The 45 is a very low pressure cartridge compared to .40, 9 mm, the revolver mags and such. Decades ago Speer ( and probably others ) used to sell swaged bullets for .38 target use. Velocity would be similar to .45 and they were pure lead.
I have one 1911 that is very sensitive to alloy hardness, Phillipine made ( read: cheap ). Probably needs to be fire lapped. But it works great with minimal leading if I use very soft bullets, softer than WW.
I'm not one for tumble lubing, prefer stronger lubes like LBT blue. I wouldn't bet on the tumble lubes holding up under higher pressure like the .40 S&W.
A buddy showed me a quick way to get the leading out. Wrap 0000 steel wool around an undersized brush until very snug in barrel; push it thru 6-10 times and you are good to go. On the cheap barrels it cleans out the crud quick and I'm not worried about wear / damage. Better barrels and fire lapped barrels won't have this problem assuming the lube holds up.

[prs]

The front shoulder of the front drive band may be "snagging" on the abrupt end of the chamber if the leade into the rifling is also abrupt.

prs

[MtGun44]

5.5-5.6 will get you about 900 fps with a 200 SWC in most guns. Many IPSC
shooter shot from 5.7-5.9 by the millions back in the day. Those were
going about 950 fps or more.

Not a plinker, but a nice full power load at 5.5-5.6. I know the
5.7-5.9 is over book value, and I am NOT recommending it, but I know that
a whole lot of rounds went downrange with that load in the 80s and 90s.

Of course, that doesn't make it smart, but if you stay at 5.6 or less
you are fine on pressure.

And I'll agree with the previous poster and restate something that I
have said here many times. Probably 85% of the issues I saw over
the years with new guys loading for .45 ACP was no or inadequate
TC.

Bill

[tomme boy]

I used to use the alox, I HAD to coat them 2x's.

Are you sure it is leading? And if it is, make sure to get it ALL out. If you don't, it will just continue to lead. Get a Copper Chore Boy pad and wrap it around a old brush and go to town on it. When you think it is clean, clean it again. Until you make sure it is completely clean of lead, you are not making any progress.

[kartooo]

I used to use the alox, I HAD to coat them 2x's.

Are you sure it is leading? And if it is, make sure to get it ALL out. If you don't, it will just continue to lead. Get a Copper Chore Boy pad and wrap it around a old brush and go to town on it. When you think it is clean, clean it again. Until you make sure it is completely clean of lead, you are not making any progress.

agreed, get ALL the lead out. the rough leftover lead in the bore will just make more leading.

[destrux]

Thanks for all the replies.

I'm absolutely sure my barrel is leading, and that it's 100% clean each time I test a new batch of ammo. The bore is like glass when I'm done cleaning. From all the cleaning, it's well lapped too. I use the chore boy trick, with Shooters Choice lead remover, but even with that it takes some scrubbing. The stuff really gets ironed on. No idea what kind of barrel I have, the barrel is a used one I got at a local gun shop and it's marked "-Colt 45 Auto-" on top of the chamber area (if anyone knows who made this I'd kind of like to know, actually).

I'm sure I'm not crimping them too much too, I just barely take the bell off the case. They mic at .473", well above what's recommended. They drop right into the chamber though and I have no functioning problems so I see no reason to go smaller.

I've thought over every suggestion and read Fryxells online book again, and I figured it's got to be a bullet size problem. If other people are getting by with LLA lube then there's no reason I shouldn't be able to (although I will try that Recluse lube, thanks).

I loaded up ten dummies and pulled the bullets again to check my bullet diameter again. They are .454" or .453" (depending on cavity they came from) before loading, bullets are measured at the base and rotated and checked for lowest diameter.

So after pulling sure enough I found that half were down to .451", the other half were .452". Last time I only checked two and they were both .452", so I was fooled. I use mixed range brass, and I don't keep track of firings. Is it possible that the brass isn't all the same hardness so some is sizing the bullets down more than other brass?

I measured the expander/funnel in my dillon and it only measures .447", so it's not expanding the brass nearly enough, even though the bell is plenty large enough to get the bullet in without shaving lead.

The bullets are left with the task of stretching the brass quite a bit, so (in my mind) if some cases are harder then those cartridges will end up with undersized bullets.

I'll have to call Dillon and see what a new expander is supposed to measure. Mine has loaded about 50,000 rounds I'd estimate, so it might be worn.

I just remembered I have an RCBS die set and I measured the expander and it's .450". I'm going to size and expand a batch and then finish them on the Dillon to see if the bullets are still being sized down too small. I'll probably catch hell from my wife for making noise with the impact puller at 1AM, but science can't wait (nor can my curiosity).

[destrux]

I think part of the problem is the tumble lube bullet design has a very thin bottom band and it doesn't take much to damage it or size it down, and the upper bands are all smaller diameter (.449" as cast) so once the gas compromises the lower band there's nothing to stop gas cutting. The bullet is long enough that the lower band seats below where the expander expands the brass. So not only do I need a larger expander, but I need a deeper one too (the lyman M seems to accomplish this).

Maybe I should just get rid of this Lee tumble lube mould while I'm at it and get something with a traditional lube groove and band design.

[MtGun44]

TL is a marginal system, not everyone gets it to work in every gun,
altho .45 ACP is usually OK.

Conventional system is much more forgiving.

Bill

[462]

I've never dealt with tumble lube boolits, but:

1. Seating dies are designed to seat jacketed bullets -- in this case .451" -- and they can and will (my experience) swage a large for caliber cast boolit -- in your case .454".

2. My stock Lyman M-die expands the case to .4498", and opens the case mouth to .4532".

[DLCTEX]

I would use the RCBS expander and go back and try water dropping some with a week wait to allow them to harden well. The tougher alloy should help resist swaging. If you can maintain .452 it should work IMHE.

[destrux]

I tried this all out today and the first magazine I fired off I had almost no leading. Those were seated out at 1.22" and were pan lubed with my new lube I mixed up (50/50 beeswax/vaseline plus some STP and a pinch of moly powder).

Then I fired the second magazine, loaded the same way, but lubed with LLA.... and it leaded up badly.

I'm going to get some money together and get another bullet mold to try out, with conventional lube grooves.... and I guess a lubesizer is in my future too, because I'm liking pan lubing less and less every time I do it.

I'm going to see what I can do to make a .451" expander for my dillon press, then I plan to cast some of these tumble lube bullets with softer lead and load them over 3.8gr Bullseye and see if I can make a plinking load that I can tumble lube with plain LLA.

For now though at least I have a load that is almost absent of leading.

[Outpost75]

With a 200-gr. SWC similar to H&G 68, it is hard to beat 4.7-4.8 grains of W231 or WST or 4.5 grs. of Bullseye.

Hard alloy isn't necessary, but you do want something BHN 12-13,

[DougGuy]

Hey destrux, this may come off as off the wall, but after hearing your notes on the two magazines fired with different lube, the light bulb lit up.

I used to use those wax gas check sheets under 340gr lino in .45 Colt, over 22gr of WW296. Hell of a engine block load, shoot right through 32" seasoned oak firewood, longways. I had very little cleanup to do and no leading to speak of. Those things kinda worked, they made the barrel real easy to clean, and it seasoned the bore for the next boolit from leaving wax residue in there.

I'm just wondering what difference might be made in your auto from trying some, and if the same results I had with them might be had in the .45 ACP. From what you are saying, there is some inconsistency going on with the boolit diameter on some rounds, and if the lube makes a difference, I'm just curious to see if using soft checks would make a difference as well. Since you are not pushing the loads to the IPSC levels, the space taken up by a .060" sheet of wax should be okay.