Partial Sizing .45 Colt Woes

[Potsy]

So about a year ago, I had the idea that being as how my rifles (.25-06 & 7 x 57) seemed to like it when I backed the sizing die out a little bit, my Ruger Bisley .45 Colt might really appreciate that treatment.
It made sense to me that when cases jingle around in chambers to the point of sounding like Santa's sleigh at Christmas, filling part of that big empty space with cartridge might help things line up a little better, thus, improving accuracy.
I realized that such partial sized cases probably wouldn't fit anything else so chambered, but at this point, this is the only .45 Colt I own. Matter of fact, when I did partial size them (sized about 1/3 of the way down), this became obvious, as the cases looked more like .44-40's than .45 Colts (.469 for the full sized vs. .481 for the partial, measured about 1/4" up from the bottom)!
Sizing went fine, then, when seating, the sides started to rub on my Lee seater/crimp die. Then, when I went to crimp, the case was to wide to fit in the die deep enough to crimp!!
So I put the die in a lathe, stuck a 1/2" bit in the chuck, plenty of cutting oil, and all it would do is wallow out and oblong hole about 1/4" into the die and stop. Thinking cheap chinese "came in a cheap set" bits were the problem, I bought a 1/2" HSS bit. Same setup, except this time it went in about 1/4" and the die body began cracking. Apparently Lee dies are HARD and BRITTLE (of course, they never built them with the intention of me drilling around on them).
Has anyone ever played with this? Has anyone ever came up with a (cheap) solution?
In a revolver, does partial sizing promote accuracy to begin with?
FWIW, I'm running 270SAA's w/9.0grn. Universal & 20grn. 2400. Throats run .4515. Groups run 2-3" @ 25 yards depending on what kind of day I'm having.

[RobS]

Yep........Lee dies are hard for sure. When I do modification to Lee dies, I've done quite a few, I anneal the die by heating it up cherry red and letting it cool on it's own. I then come back and reheat treat the die when I'm done doing mods.

[45 2.1]

Check out the Lee carbide factory crimp dies (the ones with a carbide ring at the bottom). They I.D. varies quite a bit on them. Pick one that barely trues up the case and use a normal carbide die to size the portion on the mouth that holds the boolit.

[Pepe Ray]

Potsy' your premis is accurate, provided that there is nothing else involved that will screw up your acuracy efforts.
Before Ranch Dog closed up shop he offered bottle neck FCD's for hand gun cartridges. They were a custom/unique product
that could be sold only by RD. His supply evaporated quickly and Lee has chosen to ignore the demand.
Being old and slow,I've not had the opportunity to try out my FCD'sfor the 45. Yes, I got in under the wire because I had joined his website.
Having several different Brands of 45 Colt chambers, I'm anxious to see if your/our premis is worthwhile.
And,YES, I will post results. Stand by,
Pepe Ray

[DougGuy]

You might get away with using the .45 ACP seater plug, or making a custom length seater plug between the .45 ACP and .45 Colt, there is almost 3/8" difference between the two. If you need to take the bell out of the case mouth enough to get it into the crimp die, use the carbide factory crimp die and only let the case go into it far enough to straighten the case mouth out.

My favorite .45 Colt crimp die is the uncataloged Lee #80337 collet style die, but I modify mine to make the crimp band narrower and I shorten the collet so it moves the crimp band down on the case mouth, works great..

Edit: This is one of the dies that was sold by RD, is this possibly the same die that Pepe Ray made reference to?

Thread with photos of the modified FCD here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?201449-Question-about-type-of-crimp-required&p=2239315&viewfull=1#post2239315

[pipehand]

I believe it was Brian Pierce that did an article on using the latest itteration of RCBS STEEL (not carbide) dies for use in the 45LC. I've tried it, and due to underlubrication, stuck a case in the steel die. Redding has a die with two carbide rings in it for the Colt. The one sizes the body, and the other sized the "neck" for boolit tension. They're pretty pricey.

I've deprimed with a 45-70 die, and sized the neck of the 45Colts with a 45 acp carbide die. Worked well.

[Char-Gar]

Potsey... The large Ruger charge holes plus the squeeze carbide dies puts on the cases will indeed cause the loaded rounds to settle in the bottom of the charge holes and the bullets start off down the throats a skosh cockeyed.

A remedy was to do as you tried, and that is don't resize the bottom half of the case and use a Keith type bullet with the front band in the cylinder throat. This works pretty well and does help accuracy, but has it's drawback as well.

It does limit the rounds to the handgun they were fired in. Having a half dozen sixguns in 45 Colt, this was a PITA for me.

I had Redding dies and never found the cases to large to give me issues in bullet seating. I can't comment on Lee dies because I don't use them.

Redding has developed the 45 Colt sizing die with a top and bottom dual carbide rings just to deal with this problem and I understand it works quite well.

My solution was to go with a early 60's RCBS steel resizer. This produced ammo with the same specs as factory ammo. It resized the case much less and does produce a slight neck that is expanded to the size you want for bullet seating. Ammo loaded with this die will chamber in all of my handguns in 45 Colt Caliber. This worked so well, I picked up another spare old RCBS die set on Ebay, just in case.

I also have an old Lyman Shell Resizer in 45 Colt that I use in conjunction with an arbor press and this produces sized cases that are factory spec. It is a mite slow to use, but works great.

It does require a little time to lubricate cases, but it is worth it to me for the superior ammo produced. I do clean these older dies and polish the inside of the sizer if necessary due to scratches on the sized cases. I have yet to find one that could not be rehabbed to new condition.

I have sorta gone to seed on this, and have replaced all of my carbide sizes in various sixgun calibers with vintage steel ones. They work the brass much less and produce the a tapered sized case, just right for what I want.

It works for me and I paid less than $10 for the 45 Colt RCBS sizer, and I think around $20 for the older entire die set. This spare set was purchased a year ago, and things might have gone up. But, steel sizing die sets are not as much in demand as the carbide one, and sell for a lesser price.

Just three months ago, a fellow sold some new old stock (1980) RCBS steel sizers that he acquired and I bought one in 45 ACP, 357 Mag, 44 Special and 44 Mag for $10.00 each. It is interesting, but there is a difference in the 44 Special and 44 Magnum dies in that the tapered portion at the top which is expanded is the same in length, but due to the different length of cases requires different dies. Size a 44 Mag case in the 44 Special die, expand and seat a bullet will produce a loaded round with a slight wasp waist. Probably does no harm, but I don't like it, beside the dies were cheap enough to have a different one for both the Special and Magnum cases. The same hold true for the 38 Special and 357 Mag rounds. Carbide dies don't have tapers, so it doesn't matter what the length of the case, and therein is my issue with them.

[Airman Basic]

I guess I'm missing something, but I noticed 20 years ago that a 45 Colt carbide die set made for loose boolits in loaded rounds, when using the same boolits I used in the autos. So I just started using a 45 ACP carbide die set for 45 Colt. Never had a problem accuracy or function wise. Figured everybody did the same.

[Scharfschuetze]

Potsy,

I've been neck sizing my 45 Colt cases (odd term for a straight case, eh?) for many years. I only have one 45 Colt revolver, so I don't have any issues with interchangeability between pistols. I use an RCBS carbide die set and either because my pistol has tighter chambers than yours or my RCBS seating die is of larger diameter, I've not experienced your problem. While my cases, as you note, look like 44/40s, they chamber well and I don't think that I've ever had to FL size them over the life of the cases. Of course my loads are only moderate in pressure and only duplicate factory ballistics.

I can't document any increase in accuracy, but I feel better for the attempt and that probably equates to a little more confidence in the accuracy of the revolver.

Airman,

I size to or use .452" boolits and I have used both Remington and Winchester cases for my 45 Colt reloads. I've never noticed a loose bullet in my loaded cases. Do you think that you had an expander plug for a .454" diameter and then used .452" boolits?

[Airman Basic]

Scharfschuetzer, (had to copy and paste your name, BTW), the .454 is exactly what I had in the Lyman carbide set 20 odd years ago. That's why I started using the ACP set. Thought about oversizing the cases, but never had premature failure problems. For sure, all the 45 Colts I've had had barrels closer to 452 than 454.

[Wolfer]

I know a lot of people neck size their 45 colt but my expierence hasn't been very good. Yes my fully sized cartridges are in danger of swapping ends. Or so you would think if you shake the gun and hear the rattle.

However when I neck size some of them have to be pushed into the chamber while some fit pretty good.
I could never tell a difference in accuracy. I know I'm not a very good shot but the chambering hassle made me go back to full length sizing.

[Ben]

Wolfer

If you ever have to use your revolver for REAL BUSINESS, you'll be glad those rounds fall into the chambers ! There is no time for taking rounds that won't chamber and fooling with ammo that won't chamber properly.

I think you're making a wise decision.

BEN

[Char-Gar]

Wolfer

If you ever have to use your revolver for REAL BUSINESS, you'll be glad those rounds fall into the chambers ! There is no time for taking rounds that won't chamber and fooling with ammo that won't chamber properly.

I think you're making a wise decision.

BEN

Amen and Amen!

[Potsy]

I loaded about 25 270SAA's that were partial sized before I figured out I couldn't crimp them. Rather than pull them I decided to just shoot them. All except one fell into the chamber, and it was the one I had tried to crimp and the die had left scuff marks on the case. The fact that the cylinder hadn't been cleaned in quite some time probably didn't help a whole lot. The chambers can get pretty sooty due to all the extra room!
I suppose it would be possible that cases could expand enough that they would not want to chamber after a couple of firings of 20grn. 2400 under a 270SAA, but I think it would be worth experimenting with to find out.
This is nothing I'd fool with for a carry or duty gun where 2"-3" at 25 yards is more than acceptable. Or where one might encounter an irate bear at bad breath distance.
Any "REAL BUSINESS" conducted with a single action had best be concluded within 6 rounds anyway, because fast reloads ("REAL BUSINESS" fast) with a single action are a pipe dream at best, for me at least. Though I'm very sure I'm the slowest man on this site for my age.
The Lee sizing die works as far as partial sizing goes. The seater/crimp die will seat. I just can't get the case in far enough to crimp. This means either a) opening the hole a little ways up into the die or b) cutting the die off so the unsized portion doesn't contact the die. Of course, I am open to other ideas.
I may very well check into the steel dies from RCBS. If they were somewhat less "min-spec", ammo could be fired in any .45 Colt without chambering issues (that, admittedly, show up at the most innopportune times) while taking some (if not all) of the slop out of my cavernous Ruger chambers.

[MtGun44]

Older steel RCBS dies are slightly tapered, as are older chambers. Mfgers trying to convert
45 LC into a straight case when it actually isn't quite straight.

Bill

[Potsy]

Well, I re-read everyones post (thanks!!!) and took RobS's advice.
I stuck the seater crimp die that was cracked at the bottom in my vice, got it as hot as I could with a propane torch. Let it cool. Then broke out the hacksaw. I never figured I'd cut it until heat-softening the die came up (thanks Rob!)
I cut it off a little shorter than I wanted it, but I didn't have a real good way to measure exactly where I needed to cut. I cut it off about 3/16" or so below the crimp ring.
I faced off my rough hacksawing with a couple files, countersunk the hole, and re-heat treated (the die came out the prettiest blue!) with my propane torch and a tuna can full of 10w-30.
My other seater/crimp die wouldn't seat because where I had wallowed out the hole there was an edge inside the die that kept hanging up on the front driving band or the case mouth so I broke out my .45ACP seater and that worked!
My newfangled crimp die worked perfectly.
I was a little limited on time yesterday, and I screwed up a couple of them messing with dies, but I've got 5ea loaded with 9grn Universal and 7ea loaded with 20grn 2400.
I'm headed to the range in a bit and will post results!!

[RobS]

Great to hear that you were able to salvage the seat die. Let us know how your loads go.

[Potsy]

I made it to the range a couple times last week.
The first time was before I was able to crimp.
I had some 270-SAA's that were partial sized, over 20grn 2400 that were not crimped. I had been shooting my .45-70 at the 50 yard line and decided to plink around with the un-crimped rounds. I fired a 6 round group. It strung three rounds horizonatally about 3-1/2" wide, then, it put three more horizontally 3-1/2" wide about 3" below and slightly left of the first three.
I thought that was pretty good for me at 50 yards with ammo that hadn't been crimped. BTW, 2400 smokes like Goex FFF when you don't crimp it.

Now the weird part.
I re-vamped my crimp die. I had 6 rounds of the uncrimped 2400 loads left. I crimped them. I also loaded 5 (ran out of lubed bullets) with 9.0grn H-Universal.
I went back to the range.
At 25 yards, the Universal load printed 2 groups, one with two rounds cutting one hole,the other with three rounds making an inch group (two cutting one hole) about an 1.5" lower and 3/4" inch left.
Then, with the now crimped 2400 load, it made two very tight one hole cloverleaf groups with one centered about two inches low and left of the other.

In summation (not that 3 groups proves a whole lot) my Bisley is acting like it really wants to shoot smaller groups when partial sized. I know I've got more research to do and may go back and shoot some more this week.

But why is it shooting to two POI? On the last 25 yard group, it SEEMED as though the bullets, instead of going three and three were alternating groups from one round to the next.
Is it my grip? Or some other gremlin?

[Scharfschuetze]

Potsy

I've done a lot of chronographing of 45 Colt loads in the past and with that large case, powder position can be problematic. I've noted with both Unique and Olin's 231 wide velocity variations when powder is positioned to the front prior to firing or to the rear. In 10 round strings with powder either for or aft, velocity variations could be upwards of 150 fps with the same powder and charge. At 50 yards, that might be enough to give you two different groups.

It's just a hunch from my end, but try flipping your muzzle up prior to shooting each round to position the powder back towards the primer. Your velocities will be higher and your standard deviation between shots should be much more uniform and hopefully your groups tighter.

You do mention your grip and if the but of your pistol touches the bench or firm object during firing, it could also be the culprit. The pistol is in recoil prior to the boolit exiting the muzzle. One the Army's old steady hold factors was "Follow Through." That was defined to allow the weapon to recoil naturally without disturbing it so the weapon recoiled the same way for each shot and thus shoot to the same point of impact.

Case length, if not uniform can also lead to different pressures and velocities with crimped ammunition. A long case will get a heaver crimp when run into the crimping die and a short case may not get much crimp at all. Check the length of your best cases and trim as necessary. Back in my pistol competition days this was an onerous, but necessary chore for 25 and 50 yard ammo for the PPC course of fire.

[Potsy]

Scharf,
I thought I had checked case length on those 2400 loads. That's my hunting load and I usually take a little extra care with them. I loaded them over a year ago (without the crimp) however and I have slept since then.
I'd have thought 20 grains of 2400 would have been enough to fill the case enought to avoid any position issues, but I've never really measured bullet seating depth vs. powder fill level. I could understand it a little better with the 9.0grn of Universal load. While I've never chronied long strings; even with that load, extreme spread was 30fps for 6 rounds (1002fps-1032fps).
I did go back and look at my targets in my load notebook (something I do a very poor job of maintaining and keeping up), I tested 3 different loads when I got my 270SAA mold. The two mentioned above and 25grn. Win296. I only bothered with one group per load. BUT; the two-group phenomenon was there, before I tried partial sizing! Not hardly as pronounced, but present with all loads! And I'm quite sure I did everything possible to promote consistency for load testing.
Sooo...I'll load a few today (paying attention to case length) and sneak out to the range tomorrow and see what happens with a change in bench technique.

[Scharfschuetze]

Potsy,

I hope you get this before you get to the range.

Try shooting your group from just one chamber of your cylinder. That will negate any variance from a chamber(s) that might not line up perfectly or have a slightly different diameter. It should give you as uniform of a platform as possible.

One other thought: Maintain your eye's focus on the front sight. If you change between the front sight and the target during the string, you can induce a vertical string to your group and theoretically wind up with two different groups.

[prs]

I have loaded TONS of 45 Colt for my Ruger BVs (three of them) and Marlin Cowboy Limited rifles (two of them) and a Bond Derringer with the "neck" sized only rounds interchanged with ease among them all. Plus, I use Lee die sets without any mods other than raising the size die and using the de-prime pin from the Universal de-prime die in that standard full length resize die.

Since I use .454 boolits, I get less of the 44/40 appearance. I shoot mostly real black powder in this cartridge and having the fire formed lower section reduces blow-back in the rifles. Now, the thusly loaded rounds will not chamber in my son's genuine Eyetallion clones SAAs.

prs

[Potsy]

Scharf,
Thanks for the ideas. Prolly gonna go in the morning.
Typically, when I'm practiced enough and disciplined enough, I find the target, put my sights where I want them, focus on the sights and let the target blur, this has always worked, but I'll try focusing on the front sight and the target and see if that helps. Though I've never had that problem with my other pistols and I focus on the sights the same way.
I'll also try a group through one chamber only and see what happens.
I also need to try to re-vamp my sandbag setup and keep them well clear of the heel of my pistol.

PRS,
My partial sized rounds just wouldn't go into the seater/crimp far enough to crimp. I've cured that by cutting it off.
I can seat in a .45 ACP die.
Good to hear your partial sized cases are working in your other guns as well.

[runfiverun]

mark your cylinders.
quite often a revolver will have 3 chambers that shoot together and three that shoot together or some such combination.
I have one revolver that shoots 3-2-1 I marked the one and don't even bother loading it anymore.

[Scharfschuetze]

Potsy,

You might have misunderstood me on the previous post. Always focus on the front sight when breaking the shot. If you shift your gaze forward to the target at the shot, your brain can subconsciously lower the front sight to allow you to see the target more clearly and that can cause a low shot. Lot's of target shooters (including me) during rapid fire will shift their focus to the target momentarily to relax the eye while they breath between shots, but will always return their focus to the front sight before firing the next round. Don't focus on that sight for too long either, relax your eye between shots. If you stare at the front sight too long, you'll burn off the visual purple that coats your rods and cones on the retina of the eye and then you'll get a false image of the front sight. The group will really go to Hell fast then.

That brings up another point that can cause vertical dispersion and that's breathing. From your writing it's obvious that you've already mastered all the fundamentals of marksmanship well, but just to throw it out on the table, breathing can cause that vertical spread in a group also. Unless your runnin' and gunnin' in combat or an action match, it's best to always hold your breath while breaking the shot. 1/4 lung full, 1/2 lung full, 3/4 lung full? What ever's comfortable for you the shooter. While this is most noticeable with rifles in position shooting, it can affect a pistol shooter too. Just one more of the variables that can cause vertical stringing. They seem to go on for ever eh?

Good luck at the range in the Morning!

[ironhead7544]

Tried the neck sizing on the 44 Magnum. No difference in accuracy. Some people report larger groups. Theory is that since the chambers are not identical the cases are not completely round. Different case wont lay in the chamber the same. Full sizing will iron that out and the cases will lay in the chambers the same. Dont know about the 45 Colt as that chambering has a reputation for being on the large size.

The Keith bullet was designed to help the bullet center in the chamber. The front band was not supposed to be sized.